Has anyone else found this to be true?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

 Some may know my background from a previous post but here is a short version. Married to hwBPD for 26 years. Only recently understand BPD.

Anyway. We have 5 kids. 32 y/o son, 23 y/o son, 21 y/o son, 17 y/o son and 12 y/o daughter. We also have 2 grandchildren. When our kids were little hwBPD LOVED them. As they got older not so much. When children are young their parents are their entire world. Life revolves around them. This seemed to feed some of hubby's needs. As soon as they develop other interests he get very ugly with them. Since  I have started setting boundaries and being more firm with what my needs and our children's needs are he is even worse.  The youngest two are the only ones that still live with us full-time. He is sure that it is all their fault that I have begun to set boundaries. It's as if he has to blame them otherwise he would have to look at himself. He thinks that they would like for us to separate. These are very good kids. I know everyone thinks they have good kids. Hahah.  They are very involved at church. Our church youth group is about the only social activities they do. They really don't even date yet. Yet he thinks they are horrible and disrespectful.

 Has anyone else found this to be true for their families? The whole loving your kids when they are little bit resenting them when they start to have outside interests?  It feels to me like this should be somewhat common for people wBPD. Just curious.

[Learn each day]

 Some may know my background from a previous post but here is a short version. Married to hwBPD for 26 years. Only recently understand BPD.

Anyway. We have 5 kids. 32 y/o son, 23 y/o son, 21 y/o son, 17 y/o son and 12 y/o daughter. We also have 2 grandchildren. When our kids were little hwBPD LOVED them. As they got older not so much. When children are young their parents are their entire world. Life revolves around them. This seemed to feed some of hubby's needs. As soon as they develop other interests he get very ugly with them. Since  I have started setting boundaries and being more firm with what my needs and our children's needs are he is even worse.  The youngest two are the only ones that still live with us full-time. He is sure that it is all their fault that I have begun to set boundaries. It's as if he has to blame them otherwise he would have to look at himself. He thinks that they would like for us to separate. These are very good kids. I know everyone thinks they have good kids. Hahah.  They are very involved at church. Our church youth group is about the only social activities they do. They really don't even date yet. Yet he thinks they are horrible and disrespectful.

 Has anyone else found this to be true for their families? The whole loving your kids when they are little bit resenting them when they start to have outside interests?  It feels to me like this should be somewhat common for people wBPD. Just curious.

[Mustbeabetterway]

Hello, Learn each day, I can relate to this.  Our grown daughter and I have a very close relationship.  She has been forever trying to please him and win his approval, but as you know, very difficult and often impossible.

She has one daughter 4 years old.  Sometimes He is so detached from them that it seems like he is a step-parent/grandparent  instead of her father/grandfather.

He has always seemed jealous of the time I have spent with our daughter.  I have always been puzzled by it.  And as a grandfather, it seems he could take it or leave it. 

It has made it difficult for me to maintain the warm, close relationship with them that I desire.  Just another reason for me to make changes.

[hotncold]

Hi, I am coming at this as the child of a mom with BPD.
I remember when I was really young, my mother completely idealized me. I would have been 4 or 5 and I remember she played this game that she had secret to tell me: "She loved me to bits". She played this game all the time to the point that I found it annoying, but I also remember seeing my sister, older by three years, who had previously been my mother's favourite but who was growing up and detaching - sitting and watching as my mother lavished me with love, while my sister sat there, neglected, ignored... .discarded by my mother. I don't think my sister has ever grown out of the childhood wound. I distinctly remember a moment when we were sitting in the car and I remember my mother playing this game with me, while my sister sat next to me in her pile of steaming shame - the rejected child - because she was simply older.
So yes, this happens. When I grew older and separate and started pushing against my mother's constant boundary breaking, and abuse, I turned into the black sheep. I wasn't a bad kid, but I did wish my parents would divorce. I couldn't stand my mother. And I knew that it wasn't right what she was doing. Keep setting those boundaries. It will protect your kids and yourself.

[Learn each day]

Another example. Our 17/son had trash duty last week. The trash was full so BPDhubby calls him down to take it out. Son takes out trash. Everything's good right? Nope. BPDhubby says in counseling that our son should have taken it out automatically since it was full. I agreed. He goes on to explain that our son did it on purpose to get him to blow up and rage. When our counselor said that she was confused he explained that our youngest 2 are plotting to get him to lose his temper so I will get mad and leave.

BPDhubby asked our youngest 2 to come outside and help him work on our pole barn. 15/daughter said she was doing homework. BPDhubby said he doesn't care. Daughter gave a disrespectful huff and eye roll but obeyed. While she was getting her shoes on hubby comes to me saying that this is why he raged all these years is because of the disrespect. I said that if she was disrespectful then it would absolutely be appropriate to correct her. Instead he started yelling that I was taking her side again. I said "help me understand how I am taking her side". He just got madder and started yelling at her and calling her names. When she pointed out that she obeyed and got her shoes on and was ready to help he called her a liar and a jerk. I told him that isn't an appropriate way to discipline. He just kept yelling that he couldn't stand her, doesn't want to be around her, wishes she would move in with my mom and he doesn't want anything to do with her anymore. All while she could hear it.

[hotncold]

He just kept yelling that he couldn't stand her, doesn't want to be around her, wishes she would move in with my mom and he doesn't want anything to do with her anymore. All while she could hear it.

My mother did this too - hissed to my father what a horrible person I was, all within my hearing range. That is probably one of the worst things a parent can do to a child. Honestly if I can give you some advice on how to deal with when he complains about your child within earshot - please walk away. Tell him that you won't tolerate it. Because for your child if one parents complains and the other listens - it's like both parents are colluding and in on it. Don't give him the audience for this. It's incredibly destructive. I internalized so much shame as a result of this. My father would chuckle when my mother would say these things and he would let her go on and on in her rants against me. Those rants should have been shut down on the spot. Otherwise there is an insinuation that what she was saying is valid.

[Learn each day]

Hotncold I so appreciate your perspective on this. I read what you wrote earlier as well and am so sorry you grew up this way. I love that you now share this with others. What a great way to use your experiences.

It took me way to long to look at this behavior as abuse. It used to be so much worse so sometimes its hard for me to know where this line is now. I took to 2 still at home (we have 5) and left last year because of this. He immediately went to counseling and got help. We all did. I came to a better understanding of what my role in all of this was. I became stronger and set firm boundaries for myself and our kids. We lived apart for 6 months.

My daughter was having panic attacks and nightmares every night before we left. She had so much fear and had internalized so much damage that it has taken quite awhile for her to get to the healthy place she is now. We went back home because he had gotten so much better.  I guess is why his regressing is so hard to hear.

He was never told that he has BPD because at first our counselor didn't really feel like he had that. He was so open to admitting that what he did before (raging) was abuse and that he hated that he did that to me and our kids. He seemed to really want to change. He did so well for awhile. There were still glimpses of very selfish behavior and some of the old rage but nothing like it was before. We have been back home for almost a year now.

Our counselor now feels that he has BPD. I see much more frequent episodes. I am beginning to understand that his basic way of thinking never really changed. He now says that we should be sorry for leaving him because he was never really that bad. That he never would have acted like that if we had been doing what a good wife and children should do. As soon as he starts acting inappropriate with the children I call a halt to all that is going on. Unfortunately we live in an old house with big air returns in the floor so you can pretty much hear everything going on. I sent our son outside and he said he could still hear him yelling. I guess I feel that I can only protect what they experience with him in a limited way living here. I am beginning to feel that it is time to move out again.

BPD hubby now states all the time that he cant stand the person I have become. That me having my own opinion is going to cost us our marriage. He keeps saying that I am pushing him to a divorce. I really don't want to through away 26 years of marriage but it may be time.

At what age did you start counseling? Do you feel it has helped you? Do you still have contact with your mother?

Thanks again for your input. It is a unique perspective.

[formflier]

LED,

If I remember right, you guys are fairly religious... correct?  And that is a big part of your decision to still be together... .right?

I am conservative Christian... .my BPDish wife "usually" is (depending on BPDish stuff).

I'm going to suggest that you focus less on diagnosis and focus more on behavior, boundaries and specifically using boundaries to protect your children.

Please consider this carefully before trying it, because our situations are different.

I used to try and "reason" with my wife to not say horrible things in front of the kids.   Generally... .it didn't work well and many times it ended up looking like I was "arguing" with my wife about how to speak to the kids.

So, with the guidance of my Psychologist, I switched tactics.  Instead of "reasoning" with my wife... .I remove the audience.

So... .my wife says "blah blah blah Jimmy is horrible... has always been that way... blah blah blah... "

Instead of trying to convince her not to talk about Jimmy... .I send all kids to their rooms.

"Kids, go to your rooms and close the door.  We'll come get you after the adult conversation is over"  (or variations on that.

Note:  I don't try to blame my wife.  I announce "my" judgement that this is an adult conversation.  This leaves her in the position of "explaining" why anyone should hear about how bad Jimmy is".

The "we'll come get you" is intentional.  I'm offering my wife an olive branch to "come together as "we"", instead of "you shouldn't do xyz".

It also gives my kids cover to leave.  I'm the "head of the household" (Christianity) and unless I am asking my kids to sin (Jimmy... .go rob the bank), they are supposed to "obey" me.

Let's just say they are all too willing to run for it and shut their doors.

My wife had a screaming fit once when I did this.

A couple times she sputtered and grumped... .

And... .then... .the behavior never returned.  (probably 4-5 months since last time I sent kids to rooms)

Note:  We have a bunch of kids... .so physically impossible for her to try and block them or round them up to come back.

For now... .I'm taking this method (for me in my house) as a "checkmate" to a behavior that has troubled me for a long time.  I'm sure the dysfunction has just gone somewhere else.

The critical thing... .the important thing... is that the  kids are hearing much less dysfunctional "stuff".

 

What could this look like at your house?

FF

[Insom]

Yes.  I don't have any advice for you but agree that this is a familiar pattern.  I remember feeling alternately adored and neglected by my parent with BPD traits until I was a teen and once I started asserting myself things became extremely difficult.

[Learn each day]

FF,

I agree that removing the audience is the best choice.  The problem is that he purposely says all of the hateful things that he feels loud enough for everyone to hear no matter where they are in the house. I have even sent my son outside and he can still hear it. I agree that last thing my kids want is to hear what he is saying. Sometimes they will put in headphones but sometime  I think they continue to listen because they are worried about me.

 Our situations are so similar but in some ways so different. The biblical perspective is exactly right. The problem is that as the man, like you, my husband is also "head of the household ".  In his opinion of scripture that gives him the right to make all of these decisions. I have been praying really hard about this and believe that God would want me to protect my children from this abuse. That is why I have begun to stand up to him and tell him that it's not appropriate to talk like that.  He also feels that as "head of the household" he has the right to keep me awake when he is still one happy about something. He definitely believes that the sons should not set on his anger.  When he does this he yells all night to where the children can hear him. He will even your graphic sexual things that our children can hear.  Our daughter has come into our room and begged him to be quieter but it doesn't help.  That used to happen about once a month. It has escalated to around every two weeks. Most recently just this past Monday night.  At least that time was only until about 2:30 AM. Usually it is literally all night long.

I still completely agree with a biblical description of marriage. That is- when both parties are mentally healthy and love God. I try and talk with him about scripture and about what I feel like loving Christian parents look like. He just continues to go back to the Old Testament  as proof that it is his right to "smite" the children if he feels they have done wrong.  Then offers to send me helpful scriptures about how women and children should behave from the Bible.  All the while ignoring God six instructions for him. God's description of what love looks like.

 It is getting harder and harder her to protect my kids in this home.  I understand that God hates divorce. I can't hardly believe though that God would love the institution of marriage more than the hearts of my children. That is why I feel the need to protect them.

[formflier]

Trying to stay big picture.

So... .for what it's worth, based on what I've heard here I believe what he is asking you to do is sinful.  It's certainly abusive.

I don't want to the primary focus on the religious discussion, or a dysfunctional take on religion.

Perhaps best to say it or ask it another way.

How does your husband actions "edify" (build up) you and your children?

It is getting harder and harder her to protect my kids in this home.  

OK... .I've got an idea, but I would certainly want you to reflect and pray on this before trying to implement it.

Take away the audience.

Stop trying to convince your husband to change his behavior.  Instead... .change yours (and your kids). 

Take back the power.

So... let's say it is bed time and he starts creating a ruckus.

"It's bedtime, we all need sleep.  What time tomorrow would you like to continue this discussion before or after lunch tomorrow?" (don't be open ended... .give two choices)

If he picks one... thank him and proceed to bed.  (unlikely... .I know).

If he doesn't.  No drama, no justifications... .just a statement.  "We are going to get some sleep.  I'll check in with you tomorrow morning."

Get in car with kids and drive to hotel.

No further discussions.

Obviously this would take some prior coordination with kids.  The departure would have to be quick.  No taking any time to pack or gather things.  Walk out and go.

Cell phones on with recording app going... .and be ready to call for assistance if there is an attempt to block.

Thoughts?

Let me present this another way. 

Chances of further discussions helping?

So... .based on what I think your answer will be... .do pwBPD "respect" discussions... .or "respect" action?

FF

[Learn each day]

Whining warning... .

I hate every bit of this. I'm sick of measuring every word. I hate feeling guilty for thinking of protecting myself from a husband that I am supposed to be loving and honoring. It feels like a betrayal when I have to talk to my kids about their dads behavior. Like I am plotting against him or something. Uggggg!

Deep breath - whine over.

FF,

I really appreciate your suggestions. I know I need to tell my kids to have their stuff at the ready "just in case"... .I know this sounds so lazy but it is such a chore to think of always having my work stuff ready and all the kids' school stuff ready to leave at a moment's notice. I know it needs to be this way though.

I truly worry about his reaction if the kids and I were to leave. I really would have to be ready to act and follow through with the police if it came to it. If my 17/son saw his dad try to physically stop me I am afraid he would try to step in. I never want a physical escalation with my children present. At best he would spew ugliness at them. He hates that they want to be with me and thinks they are mean for it. He has said I will have to walk if I ever want to leave again because all the cars are in his name. I just keep envisioning all the trama of these things and really feel that the police would end up envolved and wonder what that would do to the kids.

All of these things feel like a "when" not an "if"... .

I have definitely tried suggesting that we talk after prayer the next day when we are both rested. All he hears is that I must not care enough about him to stay awake. I haven't tried a specific time though. I will try that next time although I don't hold out much hope.

LED

[formflier]

So... .not picking at you.

Hoping to reflect back your "thinking".

Where in your post did you talk about restful sleep for you and your kids... .AND your husband?

I am far too aware of how BPD land can help twist things up for us.

Perhaps involve the family doctor.  Have the doc write a note about the importance of sleep.

Then you are following doc... .vice betraying hubby.  That also brings "light" into situation.

Last thing... .read your post again... .focus on places where you are protecting your husband from consequences... .

Ask yourself how someone changes in life... .

Reflect on that for a while... .


FF

[formflier]

I hate every bit of this.

I can validate... .and agree with this 100%.  You should hate this.  I would hope the strong negative feelings you are feeling (appropriately so) can be used as "fuel" or "determination" to change things YOU can control, for the benefit of your relationship and your children.

 I'm sick of measuring every word.

Hmmm... .can you expand on this a bit?  I don't think anyone should "measure every word".  

I do think that there should be a lot of time where you can be yourself... .
I do think that you should improve your self-awareness so that you realize "Ohh... this is going somewhere bad... .now where is my "toolbag"... ok... it's time to use tools"

Perhaps said another way... .let him react to you... .trust that he will do that in his own way... .trust yourself to use tools as needed.

I'll hush on this point... .as I may be going somewhere you didn't intend... .so please elaborate more.

I hate feeling guilty for thinking of protecting myself from a husband that I am supposed to be loving and honoring.

Yeah... .that feeling sucks.  It will take deliberate effort on your part to consider if your actions are loving... .in a "tough love" sort of way.

This is more of a parenting mindset where you "know" that some lessons are best learned by experience... .and you let your kids experience them.  

Again... .sucks... .hubby... parenting mindset.  That shouldn't be.

I assure you that it is... .     

It feels like a betrayal when I have to talk to my kids about their dads behavior.

So... .don't.

Talk to them about "human behavior".  Let them connect the dots.

Good "When someone yells insults at you, best to give them time to calm... .alone."

Bad  "When Daddy yells insults at you, best to give him time to calm... .alone"


Even if they come to you complaining... .daddy this... daddy that... .listen, but generalize the response.  :)on't correct them... .if they want to label people... .let them do it.  I'm concerned about who you label.

Like I am plotting against him or something. Uggggg!

Shift mindset... ."plan" for success and health in your family.

"plot" =  bad thinking

"plan" = good thinking

Watch the words you use!

   

FF

[Pinkdress88]

I started pushing record on my cell phone when my husband starts raging. The last time he raged, I recorded it and let my best friend listen to it. I needed someone to hear what I'm hearing. I then told my husband that when he rages, I will start recording it and will let people listen to the person he really is. He has only had one small rage the other night. So, I'm hoping this will keep him from raging. He also used to send me super hateful texts. But, now my son is on his account and for some reason everything my husband sends me, my son can see it. So, now he does not send me ugly texts anymore.

[formflier]

Well... .if it continues to work.  Perhaps this is ok.  There is a saying around here that we have to be pragmatic.

However... .I do want you to understand that your course of action generally doesn't work out well.

Perhaps it will in your case.

Big picture... .you are playing around with "shame" of people finding out his "true self".  "Shame" is usually central to BPDish behavior. 

Generally what happens is that at some point... he will start blaming you for the recordings... .blaming others for listening... .all while ignoring his part in it.  Likely this will happen after shame builds up to much.

So... you are playing with fire.

Still... .if it is working... .?

What are other methods you have used?  What has worked... what hasn't?

FF

[Pinkdress88]

Formflier,

Thank you so much for your response. I don't think recording him is the "right" thing to do in most cases. But... .this is the first thing in 17 years that I have found that keeps him from raging at me. I have tried counseling, writing nice letters to him, speaking kindly to him, walking away etc. I think I am in a place where I am now just trying to protect myself and my boys. I have honestly stopped caring how he feels or how something is going to affect him. And, the sad thing is... I don't even feel guilty for not caring. If you knew me you would know this is so out of character for me.

I have been struggling for 17 years... .and I'm tired.