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Author Topic: Difference Between Psychopath & BPD  (Read 764 times)
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« on: August 10, 2017, 08:24:29 AM »

I'm not sure if this is the right area to post this, so feel free to move it, but can anyone tell me what the difference is between a person who is a psychopath and one who has BPD?

I just took one of those online tests, and every answer I gave indicated my H is a psychopath--no remorse (ever that I've seen), that nonstop lying, and what has been most concerning lately is his attempt to gaslight me.

Since the gas lighting began a few months ago, I have taken a huge step back from the relationship and am attempting to divorce emotionally before I move forward with actual divorce.

There are a lot of financial reasons for me to stay.

Anyway, if someone can address the differences between these two disorders, I'd appreciate it.

TMD
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2017, 08:43:03 AM »

What test did you take?

This is the definition of antisocial personality disorder.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/antisocial-personality-disorder
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2017, 08:52:20 AM »

This isn't a professional statement but I have also considered this idea and decided that it is the extreme end of the NPD spectrum. NPD and BPD exist on a spectrum and can co-exist, so I think BPD can coexist with that extreme too.  

But one has to be careful about the distinction. One idea is if the person with BPD is so overwhelmed by their own bad feelings that they appear insensitive to others. They don't show empathy or remorse because they are preoccupied with their own feelings. A true psychopath is not born with empathy. Since they are unable to make this connection with others, they manipulate others as a form of pleasure.

A pw BPD may act in hurtful ways from a position of victim mode- their own hurt and acting out. They may be dissociated and so emotional that their actions are not pre-meditated or purposely hurtful. Hurting others is an effect of their own hurt. The psychopath gets satisfaction out of their behaviors.

Regardless of what the label is, our part  in this is the same- boundaries, using the relationship tools to deal with our own behaviors in response. With boundaries, we deal with the behavior - not the motives. If someone is being abusive, manipulative, we have to deal with that no matter what reason they have for it.

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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2017, 09:21:36 AM »

It's possible your H may have ASPD, but the only way to surely diagnose is to get a professional to diagnose it.
Psychopath and sociopath are not longer accepted terms in the DSM V. These now fall under antisocail personality disorder. Here's the criteria for each so you can compare.

ASPD Diagnosis
The criteria for ASPD are:

The essential features of a personality disorder are impairments in personality (self and interpersonal) functioning and the presence of pathological personality traits. To diagnose antisocial personality disorder, the following criteria must be met:

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
     1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b)
          a. Identity: Ego-centrism; self-esteem derived from personal gain, power or pleasure
          b. Self-direction: Goal-setting based on personal gratification; absence of prosocial internal standards associated with failure to conform to lawful or culturally normative ethical behavior.

AND
     2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
          a. Empathy: lack of concern for feelings, needs, or suffering of others; lack of remorse after hurting or mistreating another
          b. Intimacy: Incapacity for mutually intimate relationships, as exploitation is a primary means of relating to others, including by deceit and coercion; use of dominance or intimidation to control others.

B. Pathological personality traits in the following domains:
     1. Antagonism, characterized by:
          a. Manipulativeness: Frequent use of subterfuge to influence or control others; use of seduction, charm, glibness, or ingratiation to achieve one's ends
          b. Deceitfulness: Dishonesty and fraudulence; misrepresentation of self; embellishment or fabrication when relating events
          c. Callousness: lack of concern for feelings or problems of others; lack of guilt or remorse about the negative or harmful effects of one's actions on others; aggression; sadism.
          d. Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults; mean, nasty, or vengeful behavior.

     2. Disinhibition, characterized by:
          a. Irresponsibility: disregard for--and failure to honor--financial and other obligaitons or commitments; lack of respect for--and lack of follow through on--agreements and promises.
          b. Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing and following plans.
          c. Risk Taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard for consequences; boredom proneness and thoughtless initiation of activities to counter boredom; lack of concern for one's limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individuals personality train expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environment.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individuals' personal train expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma)

F. The individual is at least 18 years old.

BPD Diagnosis

A. Significant impairments in personality functioning manifest by:
     1. Impairments in self functioning (a or b)
          a. Identity: Markedly impoverished, poorly developed, or unstable self-image often associated with excessive self-criticism; chronic feelings of emptiness; dissociate states under stress
          b. Self-direction: Instability in goals, aspirations, values, or career plans

2. Impairments in interpersonal functioning (a or b):
          a. Empathy: Compromised ability to recognize the feelings and needs of others associated with interpersonal hypersensitivity (i.e. prone to feel slighted or insulted); perceptions of others selectively biased toward negative attributes or vulnerabilities
          b. Intimacy: intense, unstable, and conflicted close relationships, marked by mistrust, neediness, and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment; close relationships often viewed in extremes of idealizations and devaluation and alternating between over involvement and withdraw.

B.  Pathological personality traits in the following domains:
     1.Negative affectivity, characterized by:
          a. Emotional liability: Unstable emotional experiences and frequent mood changes; emotions that are easily aroused, intense, and/or out of proportion to events and circumstances.
          b. Anxiousness:  Intense feelings of nervousness, tenseness, or panic, often in reaction to interpersonal stresses; worry about the negative effects of past unpleasant experiences and future negative possibilities; feeling fearful, apprehensive, or threatened by uncertainty; fears of falling apart or losing control.
          c. Separation insecurity: Fears of rejection by – and/or separation from – significant others, associated with fears of excessive dependency and complete loss of autonomy
          d. Depressivity:  Frequent feelings of being down, miserable, and/or hopeless; difficulty recovering from such moods; pessimism about the future; pervasive shame; feeling of inferior self-worth; thoughts of suicide and suicidal behavior

     2. Disinhibition, characterized by:
          a. Impulsivity: Acting on the spur of the moment in response to immediate stimuli; acting on a momentary basis without a plan or consideration of outcomes; difficulty establishing and following plans; a sense of urgency and self-harming behavior under emotional distress
          b. Risk Taking: Engagement in dangerous, risky, and potentially self-damaging activities, unnecessarily and without regard for consequences; boredom proneness and thoughtless initiation of activities to counter boredom; lack of concern for one's limitations and denial of the reality of personal danger.

     3. Antagonism, characterized by:
          a. Hostility: Persistent or frequent angry feelings; anger or irritability in response to minor slights and insults

C. The impairments in personality functioning and the individual's personality trait expression are relatively stable across time and consistent across situations.

D. The impairments in personality functioning and the individuals personality train expression are not better understood as normative for the individual's developmental stage or socio-cultural environement.

E. The impairments in personality functioning and the individuals' personal train expression are not solely due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., severe head trauma)

F. The individual is at least 18 years old.
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2017, 09:30:56 AM »

Wow. Thanks. I hadn't expected such a quick response. Seems to me there is significant overlap and that the distinguishing feature is that prompts the behavior--overwhelmed by feelings or simply no remorse.

What I will do in either case (and honestly I'm not sure I need the diagnosis as my behavior will be the same regardless) is emotionally divorce myself from this relationship because in its current incarnation it's not healthy for me to engage with my H and could ultimately be emotionally dangerous.

Thank you!

TMD
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 02:47:26 PM »

Wow! Thanks everyone! It now becomes clear that my ex-husband also fits the criteria of ASPD in addition to BPD and NPD. What a package! I'm glad it's been over 15 years since we've crossed paths and that he lives on the opposite coast. (I always like to figure these things out in retrospect--whew! Glad I got out of that marriage alive!)

My psychologist who has diagnosed my current husband with a personality disorder, does not like to differentiate among the various personality disorders because she sees so much overlap. She's fine with just calling it "personality disorder."
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2017, 05:12:50 AM »

I haven't kept up with all the changes in the DSM - thanks for the update.

There is overlap in behaviors between the PD's.
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 09:39:44 AM »

A lot of Internet sites are very liberal in tagging people as psychopaths. Its clearly overstated these days. When the stigma of Bipolar dissipated, there was an overstatement of BPD. As that stigma dissipated, there is an overstatement of psychopaths.

 It's a pretty significant tag.

Its not in the DSM. Its a criminology term.  Here it is defined:

The twenty traits assessed by the PCL-R score are:

    glib and superficial charm
    grandiose (exaggeratedly high) estimation of self
    need for stimulation
    pathological lying
    cunning and manipulativeness
    lack of remorse or guilt
    shallow affect (superficial emotional responsiveness)
    callousness and lack of empathy
    parasitic lifestyle
    poor behavioral controls
    sexual promiscuity
    early behavior problems
    lack of realistic long-term goals
    impulsivity
    irresponsibility
    failure to accept responsibility for own actions
    many short-term marital relationships
    juvenile delinquency
    revocation of conditional release
    criminal versatility


Read more: www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html#ixzz4pSQl6gQX
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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 08:05:07 AM »


TMD,

I would advise you to be reluctant to label things and to use those labels as part of your decision.

Let the P label.  I would encourage you to reflect on how the r/s affects you.  Reflect on what you can reasonably change in the dynamic.

Your husband's stuff seems very complex... .much more than my situation.

At first glance my wife would fit aspd as well.  All of the professionals that have gotten close to her conclude that paranoia is central... .or core... .to her.  They are reluctant to label and have all expressed they haven't seen enough to formally label... .and that a formal label would NOT change how I should approach things.

FF
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 09:15:47 AM »

Thanks, FF.

I am specifically focusing on his behaviors right now, and his label doesn't matter to me, even though I'd posted what I did.

I have to admit his behaviors frighten me. I am maybe 45% concerned about my physical safety, but 90% concerned about my emotional safety. I am increasing the time I spend with people here and in the house.

What concerns me the most and what requires me to be the most on guard is that my H seems to be gas lighting me. There have been issues with the cats, his not being home, his lying about where he is. And most recently I discovered that he's using brute force attack on my website.

Why I consider this last as gas lighting is that the IP address is our house's IP address: I pulled the security logs. If I were to ask him about it, or worse tell his P about my concerns, he's in a position to deny it. I have security on the site, and if someone tries to log in as a user (I have 3 user accounts on the site) and gets the password wrong, the site will automatically lock the user out.

This has been going on for several months, when I'd try to get on the site and I'd get a message that I'd been locked out for too many failed login attempts, and for the past several months, I've been attributing it to some sort of technology glitch.

However, yesterday I went through the logs and saw that someone using this IP address tried to log in first on the phone and then on the browser. I've never tried to log into my site via phone.

I did write my H, saying that I thought he was trying to force me into divorcing him so he wouldn't be the "bad guy." He has a tremendous investment in being seen as a victim; if he can get me to file, he's the victim. Once again.

In that email, I told him I thought before we moved forward with any kind of separation, we should try to get the marriage back on track with his T mediating. When I filed for divorce years ago, it was a disaster. It was the most traumatic thing I ever went through. I can't have another nasty divorce. If it comes to divorce, it must be amicable, at least on my part.

I am treating whatever I say and do, as if it is being recorded. It is a crappy way to live.

One of my many sisters suggested to me yesterday that I see if I can go six weeks and put any kind of decision out of my mind and focus on myself and what I want. I can't commit to six weeks; I can commit to three at a time, and sometimes it's going to be a daily commitment.

Beneath the anger and sadness, I am really concerned for my H. I am concerned he may be back on drugs. I am concerned he has a car with a broken transmission and won't get in touch with his father to replace the car. I've mentioned my H has a trust. The money is there, he won't ask for it.

He isn't making good decisions. I've attempted to put the "team" back together by asking the P, T, FIL, H and my coach to get together with me, so H and I can at least be talking. H wrote back: LOL. Not interested at all.

So my job--should I accept it--is to hunker down, protect myself emotionally, and see where this leads. If my FIL cannot set up an estate plan that protects me in the event my H dies before I do (and the choices he's making now make that a real possibility), I will be better off filing for divorce. I need to be protected financially if this gets any worse.

Thanks to all of you for listening. I'm in a pretty bumpy place right now.

TMD

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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 11:49:08 AM »


TMD,

"Gaslighting" is generally not a favorable term on these boards.  "Projection" tends to be favored.  While I'm not an expert on the differences... .my understanding is gas-lighting is a strategy and projection is an emotional reaction.

Rather than picking either one... .I would recommend that you stay away from judgments and be very tentative about "why" he is doing things... .and focus on what you know... for 100%... .that he is doing things... .what you see (vice the why).

It's completely understandable that you would be incredibly focused on what he is doing and getting him to change... .completely understandable. 

I would hope you would shift energy to what you can control and trust that he will work his own stuff out... .or not.

One "error" I think you made... and I would encourage you to not do it again... .is "suggest" or "accuse" or "share thoughts" about his intentions.

I'm all for asking him for clarity... and respecting that he may or may not give it... .and that the answer he gives may or may not be truthful.

It's one thing (and I think a healthy thing) for us on these boards to "read tea leaves" about intentions.  Its totally another thing to speak of this to a disordered person.  IMO it will add to dysfunction, vice reduce it.

Thoughts?

   
FF
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« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2017, 04:37:37 PM »

Hi TMD,

So I am a part owner in a building.   One of the residents in the building was a grade 5 hoarder.   Yes like the TV show.   Once I had to organize a rescue/recovery when the hoard collapsed.    As the first responders gathered, one of the fire fighters looked at me and said "we have civil liberties in this country,... .we can't stop anyone from how they decide to live".

Truer words have never been spoken.

I certainly understand why you would be concerned about where your H is, and his drug usage.     It would concern anyone.    His decisions, are his decisions.   His decisions alone.    Your ability to impact them is very limited.  If he is not interested in getting together with his mental health team, than unfortunately you need to respect that.   And modify your behavior accordingly.    That doesn't mean being a door mat or waiting for him to come to his senses.  That does mean doing what you need to do to protect yourself, your environment and your financial future.

People with disordered thinking, or distorted thinking, make impulsive, high conflict decisions.    It is usually not possible to 'reason things out' or explain logically to them why impulsive, emotional, chaotic choices are bad for them and the relationship.   It's invalidating and usually causes emotions to rise rather than calm.    If that makes sense.

I believe there is a lot of 'one-upmanship' in a relationship with a person who has the traits of a PD.   Well I should say there was a lot in mine.   A lot of subtle messages about who was the good person, who was the bad person,  who was to fault, who was the blame.   What I learned was there was no way I was going to persuade anyone to change their opinion.   If people thought I was the 'bad' person in my relationship, that was their business.   And trust me there are people who think that.

I have to admit his behaviors frighten me. I am maybe 45% concerned about my physical safety, but 90% concerned about my emotional safety. I am increasing the time I spend with people here and in the house.

This website has a safety first policy.   Always safety first.   In the unusual situations we find ourselves in it's fairly common to read stories of injuries, jail trips, police visits, etc etc.   

I want to support you in using reasonable and rational precautions to maintain your safety.   If there is electronic surveillance happening, it's probably a good idea to take steps to break that chain.   At the lowest level use strong passwords, and change them.    Double down on your electronic security.   Power off things when possible.    Let people know where you are, where you are going and when you will be checking in next.    When things were very bad for me,  I used the smart phone app for the game scrabble.   I would play a continuous scrabble game with my cousin and she knew if I hadn't played a word in the last few hours to contact me.   It was subtle.    It was a life line.    It worked.

I will suggest to you an author, a guy by the name of Bill Eddy.    The information he provides will be helpful to you.    Please go visit the legal board,... .to read if not to post yet.

what you have going on, the things on your plate are difficult and emotionally painful.   they will take time to sort out.   This will be a marathon not a sprint.    Take care of yourself first.   

'ducks
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 07:52:18 AM »

TMD,

"Gaslighting" is generally not a favorable term on these boards.  "Projection" tends to be favored.  While I'm not an expert on the differences... .my understanding is gas-lighting is a strategy and projection is an emotional reaction.

FF, I understand what you're saying here, but I stand with gas lighting because I believe he is using this as a strategy. I don't mean to offend anyone on the boards with the use of that word; however, it is important for me to stay grounded, and the way I stay grounded is to focus on what is "real."

The reality is he is lying specifically to me about things, and I need to focus on that, so that I don't start believing what isn't true. You are right, however, the "why" isn't important. What is important is that I focus only on myself.


It's completely understandable that you would be incredibly focused on what he is doing and getting him to change... .completely understandable.  


I don't mean to come across as trying to get him to change. I am shoring myself up either to file for divorce or wait for him to do so.

One "error" I think you made... and I would encourage you to not do it again... .is "suggest" or "accuse" or "share thoughts" about his intentions.
I see what you're saying here: My emailing him that I think he's trying to  get me to file for divorce was my sharing/accusing him of intentions. I see that's a judgment call. Better to have acknowledged that I don't like how he's behaving? Or better yet, disinvest.

It's one thing (and I think a healthy thing) for us on these boards to "read tea leaves" about intentions.  Its totally another thing to speak of this to a disordered person.  IMO it will add to dysfunction, vice reduce it.
I agree with this, as well. And, as I write these words, I recognize just how exhausted and emotionally depleted this relationship is leaving me.

Thoughts?

   
FF

Thoughts are sprinkled throughout. As usual, I find myself rethinking and then clarifying what I think when I read your responses.

He sent me an email last night, letting me know he was safe. I responded by letting him know I'm taking off and will probably be home on Wednesday.

And I let him know, also, that I don't need him to let me know he is safe and acknowledged that what I had wanted/what I want was/is to be his wife, and I had hoped that he would say good-bye when he left, via text or email, because that would make me feel as if I mattered, but that ensuring his safety wasn't my role, and I was certain if anything were to happen to him, someone would let me know.

Like I said, this is bumpy, and I'm bouncing. I'm making mistakes as I bounce, but what I am most definitely is moving in the direction of getting out of this relationship. I had thought I could stay here and emotionally divorce him, but if he is cheating on me, that is a deal breaker. I can't find it in myself to live with that.

Thanks again, FF

TMD
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2017, 05:38:06 AM »

Hi TMD,


People with disordered thinking, or distorted thinking, make impulsive, high conflict decisions.    It is usually not possible to 'reason things out' or explain logically to them why impulsive, emotional, chaotic choices are bad for them and the relationship.   It's invalidating and usually causes emotions to rise rather than calm.    If that makes sense.
That makes a lot of sense. What I'm doing right now--and this is for my sanity, not in any attempt to change his mind -- is not respond to him. He just sent me a few days ago back to back emails telling me to die, hideous C*t, and he cleared out the joint bank account. When I put a nickel in it to keep the account open, he took the nickel. I didn't respond to him. I took care of the bank problem.

 
I want to support you in using reasonable and rational precautions to maintain your safety.   If there is electronic surveillance happening, it's probably a good idea to take steps to break that chain.   At the lowest level use strong passwords, and change them.    Double down on your electronic security.   Power off things when possible.    Let people know where you are, where you are going and when you will be checking in next.    When things were very bad for me,  I used the smart phone app for the game scrabble.   I would play a continuous scrabble game with my cousin and she knew if I hadn't played a word in the last few hours to contact me.   It was subtle.    It was a life line.    It worked.

I have changed my passwords, changed locks on the gates, but let him know. As it's not legal to lock a spouse out, I just wanted him to know I'd changed the locks on the pedestrian gates, and just shoot me a text when he got home, so I could give him keys.

I will suggest to you an author, a guy by the name of Bill Eddy.    The information he provides will be helpful to you.    Please go visit the legal board,... .to read if not to post yet.


I'm familiar with Eddy. High Conflict Institute, as I recall. Thanks for the suggestion.

what you have going on, the things on your plate are difficult and emotionally painful.   they will take time to sort out.   This will be a marathon not a sprint.    Take care of yourself first.   

'ducks

Thanks. These relationships don't happen in a vacuum. I'm also worried about my daughter, who is likewise worried about her daughter (7). Nagging worries. I'll take care of myself. Nights are the hardest.

Thanks,

TMD
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