I need to get out. My uBPDh's rage at me has been escalating

[I_Am_The_Fire]

Right now I would suggest getting a good therapist to talk to about all of this. Having one helped me more than I can describe. It was one of my very first important baby steps. Hang it there. *hugs*

[Radcliff]

Regarding boundaries, I have told him that if he ever rages at me like that again, I'm done with the relationship. I have made that clear. I've never been that scared before in my life and I will never want to be in that position again.

Are you truly willing to follow through on this?

I suppose that I could create other boundaries around name calling and other mean behavior -but what? Other than leaving, there's not much I can do.

Establishing other boundaries as you suggest certainly seems like a good idea.  At the moment, I am not feeling so confident in my boundary setting abilities, so will avoid dispensing advice.  If you want help with this, and if you have setbacks or successes, please keep posting; it will help many others.

[formflier]

 
Hey... .it's been a while since I've talked about "good, better, best"

I'm not saying it's "bad" to say "If you ever x again, I will y".  That is clear. 

However, many pwBPD will take that as a "line in the sand" or a "challenge".

Then... for no other reason than the emotions surrounding the challenge... .they will... challenge it.  Charge...

And... .if the history is that the threat never comes true... .or they have been able to "deflect" the consequence... well... .(in their mind)... .they think they can do it again.

And... .why shouldn't they.

This is why consistency of action is so... so important.

If the last 5 times he has raged... .you did (fill in the blank)... .he would expect you to do it again.

I would hope the fill in the blank is something healthy.  There are several options there... .

FF

[Cat Familiar]

My ex husband used the suicide threats to manipulate me. And some time after I left him, his new girlfriend told me that he was holding her "hostage" with suicide threats.

The last time he tried the suicide threat with me, I was several hundred miles away with my mother. My father had died of cancer the day before, hours after I visited him in the hospital. I had just come back to my childhood home with my mother, after making funeral arrangements earlier in the day and I got a phone call from my extremely agitated spouse who told me that if I didn't come home immediately, he was going to kill himself.

I did two things: 1. I called a suicide hotline asking for advice  2. I called one of his friends, told him about the threat and asked that he contact him.

The suicide hotline guy told me to ask him how he was planning on doing it and get him to talk in detail. Since I had just made funeral arrangements, I knew the questions that an undertaker needs to ask. So I asked him how he was planning on killing himself, if he wanted to be buried or cremated, if he wanted his sisters and his mother to view his body, and if so, then he would have to be embalmed, since they lived quite a distance away.

I felt oddly detached and he was totally shocked at me asking him these things in such a matter-of-fact way. He never again threatened to kill himself (to me, at least) and when I returned home, I made the gun we had disappear.

As I was divorcing him, my neighbor killed himself in his barn and sadly was discovered by his mother and five year old daughter. Some people actually complete the threat, and some never threaten and do it. So it's not something to take as an idle threat, as you well know, and that gives it power as a threat.

I had to acknowledge that it was possible that he would kill himself and get to the point where I could accept that. It wasn't my responsibility to prevent him from killing himself and I was not going to stay in the marriage for that reason.

He's still alive many years later, according to his nephew, who always liked me, and vice versa, and has kept in touch. The nephew has updated me on family history and it turns out that nearly every family member has ended up with some form of severe mental illness.

[Tattered Heart]

I am finding it a challenge to balance my concerns for WitzEndWife's safety with the need to let her chart her own course.  I feel too far removed from the situation to accurately assess things, and am cautious about the balance of carefully challenging WitzEndWife and trusting her judgement.  I also return to the title of the original post, though, "Scared of him.  Please help." 

WitzEndWife, how physically safe do you feel?  Do you have an intuition that you are in physical danger?  (I am not saying that a lack of intuition means safety, but an intuition of danger is a sign that should not be ignored).

That's really powerful. And wise. It's important that we each come to our own decisions about our relationships. What is best for one may not be best for the other. Everyone is in their own place.

Sometimes leaving a violent scenario can make things worse. It may be better to make a plan. I don't recall who mentioned it early, but what about some practice runs? As they mentioned, put your keys somewhere safe. When I can tell my H has been building up for days, I will leave my purse and keys in the car in the event that I need to leave. Have a bag packed in the trunk of the car (mine is hidden in plain view. My H thinks it's just a bag that was left in the trunk and has never even touched it). Set back a little money, just in case. I also keep my run money in the little pocket on the back of my car seat. No one ever looks in there.

I also like the idea of letting him know that you will be back. It helps them to understand that the break is not permanent, but a time out.

My H has threatened me with suicide just a couple of times, and I tried really hard not to let that stop me from setting a boundary. My response was that it would be heartbreaking if he hurt himself and if he were to continue talking about it, then I would call an ambulance to get him to help. He didn't get the reaction from me he wanted so that threat went away.

[WitzEndWife]

More updates from me. We've been bickering at bedtime every night, which has kept me up 4-5 hours later than I normally would be. As I mentioned, he and I have differing political views, which has, over time, evolved into differing values overall. He has been extremely vitriolic online for the past year, but it has gotten worse over time. On top of that, he belongs to groups that ridicule people who share some of my values. It's just a general mean spiritedness that bothers me. Not only that, but he's spending his entire days reading what I call, "outrage porn" and commenting all over the internet about it. When I mention that the trolling and constant negativity bother me and make me feel uncomfortable, he rails at me for trying to "control his speech" on social media. Previously, he would acquiesce according to my feelings and he would tone things down for a while, but this time he made a promise to tone it down and, instead of actually doing that, he doubled down and trolled harder than ever.

Last night, we got into an argument after he tried to trick me into attending an event the next evening, hosted by a local political YouTube commentator. At first, he tried to tell me it was hosted by a friend of his, but, once I pressed, he tried to show me one of the guy's videos. I got upset, understandably. He said that "this is the way he was" and that I should just accept him, but the truth is that he changed midway through our relationship. I didn't sign up for this negativity and anger. I didn't sign up to be ridiculed behind my back 24/7. I didn't sign up for having a husband who spent all day long trolling and tweeting, instead of helping out around the home.

But of course, as it is with BPD, *I* get to be the bad guy. Lucky me! You see, according to him, *HE* does not have a problem with MY political beliefs, *I* have a problem with HIS! And so, if I want to divorce him, it's all on me. It's MY decision. He is just going to be his innocent little self and the big, bad, internet freedom-stealing harpy is going to cruelly toss him out on the street.

I can't handle this. I don't know what to do. He is leaving to visit his mother in Canada in a couple of weeks. He did mention the option of not returning back to the United States (of course, that's MY decision). I feel like that would be the best way to separate, and he'd already be with his mom, so he'd have support. It wouldn't be like me throwing him out. I'm scared, and sad, and distraught. I feel like I can't think straight, there's so much emotion happening here. This is one brutal mental illness. I wouldn't wish this kind of relationship on anyone.

[Fie]

Hello Witzendwife,


I wanted to let you know that I relate.
My ex was also visiting websites which propagate different opinions then mine the whole time, trying to trick me into fights over it, while in the end I was supposed to be the problem.
Your story sounds all too familiar to me. I know how frustrated and sad you feel.

As I said before, only you know what to do. But indeed your husband visiting his mum does sound like an opportunity for you to get some space, even if it's only temporary. This way you indeed would not have to ask him to go, which means a lot less drama. And you sound like somebody who's taking up on a lot of guilt, so you might feel better about it, too.

You are referring to BPD being a mental illness ; I'm afraid I don't agree on that one. I am convinced it's a character disturbance. It's installed in one's personality. I don't think your husband has BPD, I think he *is* BPD (until of course the moment when he'd decide to work on it).

Hang in there and please keep writing. If your post has reached it's limit in characters, please do not hesitate to open another thread. We will be there for you.

xxx

[Jami]

Hi WitzEndWife,

hold on, there's a bright light shining at the end of every tunnel! These lines made me remember how i felt when my relationship(s) started to be really intense:

I'm scared, and sad, and distraught. I feel like I can't think straight, there's so much emotion happening here.

I guess it is totally understandable to feel this way. Arguments, sleep deprivation, fear, FOG, gaslighting and constant emotional turmoil lead to a whole lot of confusion. In such situations, i always found it very helpful to have some time alone. By physically distancing from the chaos i discovered that i could reconnect to myself, be less distracted and see all things with more clarity. In this sense, him going to Canada could provide you with a much needed break and allow you to breathe again.

There might be further advantages to it: as i understood, this trip is his decision. Which does not make you responsible in any way for him leaving home. Plus, his mentioning that "he might not return" gives you some more playroom. One way to put it could be that you feel you are both suffering a great deal, or are under a great deal of pressure, and that staying apart for some time could be regenerative to both to figure out what each one of you really wants. To propose a break of sorts, by validating his own statements (eventually not coming back) and building upon them to buy yourself some time. If statements like these are not an option, it might be helpful to just go with his flow without being propositive, waiting for him to go away and see what you can do from there on.

I've had a situation with my ex husband (probable co-morbid PD's) who had become increasingly unstable. There was psychological, emotional and physical violence. Toward the end of our relationship i was just plain scared of him, confused, exhausted and isolated from friends and family. I found that fishing opportunities out of projects he put on the table - like leaving for a trip for instance - was a good way to diminish potential triggers, while letting him believe that he was still in control. I played passive, tried to stay low, avoided tensions and arguments as much as possible and basically went along with all his wishes. I supported his plans to travel with the kind and selfless attitude of a submissive wife (which i never was). This seemed to be very gratifying to him and he left thoughtlessly. Once he was away, i geared up. I seeked help, made safety plans, involved trusted friends for support and was able to organise my way out with a cold head and solid measures in place.

I'm not suggesting that "a way out" is what might benefit you, but i am positive that his leaving will provide you with some useful space to think through your options without being pressured, and figure out what you really need.

Besides that, knowing that he will be in a safe place with his mother may take away some weight off your heavy burden.

Did he mention how long he plans to stay away? Or did he leave it open?

I wish to tell you that it gets better WitzEndWife. Your exhaustion will be replaced by surges of energy and your despair will one day be overshadowed by gratitude and delight. Please do take care of yourself and do not lose hope, you can make it and we're here for you!

 

[formflier]

I would not engage on any suggestion from him that he stay or come back.  That is his choice.

I would consider what you want.  I would discuss with a divorce lawyer how you serve him when he is up there, so you know.

It would be a way to end it that would be "safer"... .remember the title of this thread.

It is up to you.

Perhaps you can serve him and send him a letter that you are open to discussing a future after therapy... AFTER... .

Leave it up to him... .

You have plenty of knowledge about what it looks likes to live with him without T.

Circling around to my first point again.  There is no reason for you to answer his suggestions about leaving or not coming back.

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I don't know if I'm ready to take the step of "serving" him, but I would like to suggest more time apart. He seems to be trying to get up and back as soon as he possibly can, and he has scheduled his whole trip around my business trip (I'll be gone for a week for a conference), so that "we're not away from each other for long." I'm going to try to suggest that he take more time to help his mother out (she needs it) before winter, and to give us a chance to take a breather from each other, due to all of the tension. Once I have a chance to see what life is really like without him, maybe I'll have more energy to make plans for leaving. I just feel the need to get away. I feel like I'm constantly being beaten down emotionally, and then blamed for my emotions.

And it's doubly hard because my family knows what's going on and they just want me to leave him, and they can't understand why I don't, even though he's horrible to all of them and has done his best to drive them away. They've tried and tried to welcome him into the family, but he insults them cruelly and ridicules them at every turn.

He's controlling. He's a bully. I thought I had the strength to combat this. I did last year. I was ready to toss him out. But now I feel crushed, like my spirit is gone. Maybe time away will bring it back?

[Learn each day]

Boy can I relate to the worry of physical abuse.

I'm not sure that we can ever really know if that line will be crossed. I think they like it that way. My BPDhubby has punched walls (many), doors (many) and anything near enough to connect with. I have a big dent in the side of my microwave. A dent I the top of my stainless steel island top. He left a dent in our van from punching it because he was mad at our (then) toddler. Destroyed a microwave cart with one swing. I was crying on the follow once in our kitchen sitting against our cabinets and he kicked a ball towards me hard enough to break the cabinets. Lots of rage driving... .LOTS. Yet through it all he has never doubled up his fist and punched me. This does not comfort me though and it shouldn't comfort you either. I am convinced that if he thought I was really leaving all bets would be off. I cannot say what he would - I'm not sure anyone can.
PLEASE BE CAREFUL. Carefully consider your exit plan as others have suggested.

[WitzEndWife]

Keeping up with the updates on here. He was supposed to leave for Canada yesterday, but has decided to wait a bit, since he claims he has other things he needs to take care of in the meantime.

Over the weekend, I found out that a close coworker of mine dropped dead of a heart attack, and our whole team is just reeling from that. Yesterday, I came home, after just having had a sad and somber meeting about the impact of his death on all of us, and H was in my face, kissing and smothering me, yammering on about some picture frames he purchased from Goodwill, and asking me what I wanted for dinner. I was non-committal on both, which irritated him, and he made some snotty retort about ignoring him. I snapped, "Well sorry, but maybe have some compassion for the fact that my coworker just died, and I just had a meeting about it before I came back home!" He snapped back about me being unpleasant. This all escalated into an all-out argument, all because I wasn't paying attention to him right when he wanted me to, and I quite frankly did not have the emotional energy or the patience to validate and then let him know that I needed some quiet time to myself.

I know that I'm not my best self with him. I'm turning into someone I don't like. I resent him. I resent that he sleeps half the day while I work. I resent that he spends my money on whatever he wants and doesn't contribute. I resent that he demands my attention all of the time and does not have any compassion for what I'm going through. I resent that he can say and do cruel things to me and then, five minutes later, pretend like everything's sunshine and roses. I resent that he revises our arguments and his statements after the fact to make it seem like he is innocent. I resent the fact that he thinks he's completely innocent, while I am the one "with the problem."

And yet, I can't pull the trigger. I can't make him go away. What is keeping me? Fear of being alone? I've been alone before. Fear of the pain of this? I guess so. Because I know it's not going to be an easy thing. At least not when it's peaceful. I'll be the mean, bad one in the revised story. The wicked witch. Sigh. This is hard.

[formflier]

 
   

Hard stuff... the coworker and the marriage.  It's ok to say it's too much. 

You asked some questions/presented some issues... .so I'm going to put something out there and trust you can leave it aside until you feel ready to deal with it.

I'm guessing the same reason you let him spend your money... .is the same reason you are still in the marriage.

As I read your list... .the money thing is the clearest one that is "boundariable" (new FF word).  In other words it is technically incredibly easy for you to do.  My understanding is multiple agreements have come and gone... .and you still fund him.

So... .why would he change?  He doesn't "need" the money.  He has yours.

I also realize, from personal experience, this is a hard emotional thing to do.  I was first advised by a family therapist to put my wife on an allowance a couple of years ago.  It was 3-4 months ago that I finally "cut her off" from all of my money.

She now has her own full time job.  I have no idea how she spends her money... .Nor does she know how I spend mine.

I "wish" I had done this earlier, but I do have memories of the internal struggle I had.  I kept hoping that one more conversation... .one more spreadsheet... one more xyz would help her "see".

At some point you will "accept" the way your hubby is and act on that... .right now I'm guessing you are still trying to "find the magic button" to make the crazy go away.

Last:  Is it time to be honest with your hubby.  "I was looking forward to "me time" while you visited your Mom.  It would mean a lot to me if you took your trip as planned."

Don't argue... .he may or may not go... .I wouldn't repeat it... .

Somehow we need to get you some relief... .so you can think

FF

[WitzEndWife]

Regarding the money thing, I have started to set boundaries with him. I told him that I would no longer pay for his credit card, that he needed to be responsible for paying that himself, and that I'd no longer pay for repairs on his car. For the most part, I've stuck to it. The exception being that I've paid him back for running errands for me, such as buying dog food or dinner. I'm still paying for everything for the both of us.

I did set a budget yesterday, and I said that we needed to stick to it. I know that's easier said than done, overall. And I'm not great with money myself, although I usually have had less of a problem living within my means when it's been just me.

When he's back from Canada, he says he will "jump into" working full time. He finally found a real estate agency he wants to work with and will start getting training from them. He also says he will drive Uber in the evenings (although he always says that and it might happen once every month or so, so I'm not holding my breath). Once he's working full time, I'll hand over more financial responsibility on his plate. But that's IF we stay together, of course.

[formflier]

 
It looks like you are on the path.

However... .why pay for anything?

Again... the big picture is... .he is unlikely to do it until he has to.

Much better to cut him off completely.

Then let him know that you are there to support an encourage his efforts... .so... .you are setting aside the money you used to give him for all this stuff.  From that money you will give him a dollar for every 4 that he makes.  Or every 3... .or 2. 

The key is you are being friendly... .you are being supportive and HE IS GOING FIRST. 

Your hands are "tied" until he goes first... .and you'll respect his choice.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

WEW, how's it going? Has he left for Canada yet? How are you feeling?   

[WitzEndWife]

WEW, how's it going? Has he left for Canada yet? How are you feeling?   

I've been at a conference all this week. He left for Canada right after I left for my conference. Of course, he still managed to accuse me of "not caring" because I didn't ask him where he was last night (he had been posting his journey on Facebook, so I knew where he was). He was all depressed because his mother's house was not as he'd left it, that she'd fallen back into her less than organized routine, and he criticized her eating habits. I asked him what he wanted to do about that, and he had no answer. He only wanted to complain about it and be sad and clingy.

The biggest problem I have with him whenever we're apart is that he misses me "SO" much, and doesn't give me any chance for relief, because I still have to deal with his emotional issues. I would not care if he spent a couple of days hanging out with his mom and ignoring me, but that has yet to happen. Sigh.

[flourdust]

My wife left the state after a fight. She was gone for a week. I used that opportunity to start divorce arrangements, so she would not be living with me again.

Just sayin' ... .if that's what you want, the timing will never be better.

[formflier]

Two things.


1.  Don't count on "him" to leave you alone.  Count on yourself to "make" some space.  If you need a break... take one.  Let him manage himself.

2.  Now is a time for deliberate thought on your part.  This is not a time for momentum.

Look at title of this thread.  No judgment if you stay... or go. 

What I am pushing you to do is sit for a bit... .really think.  Do I want him back in this house again? 

Do I want a break for a few months?  Year? 

FF

[WitzEndWife]

I am using this time to think. I am thinking about how life would be without him around, the pros and the cons. I'm carefully weighing everything. It takes time to wind down. I could not think about this during the conference, obviously, because I was running around, working, and networking with my team. I have only had two days to think and wind down so far. What I have concluded is that I am definitely unhappy right now. Whether or not that can be fixed within the relationship is the key question I have to unravel.

At least I know WHAT is making me unhappy. I was thinking that through yesterday:

1) That I am more of a mom than I am a wife, and I long for a partner whom I can count on and trust, instead of always having to be the counted on one. I need him to go from being 14 years old to 40, at least some of the time, and I know that's a huge leap.

2) That our political differences have revealed some fundamental values differences, and that I don't know if things will change if #1 changes.

3) That he is rude, abusive, and disrespectful, and sometimes rage-filled at others who mean something to me. He won't avoid taking cruel digs at my parents, no matter what they say or do, no matter how kind they are to him. That is something I cannot continue to live with.

4) That he cannot control his anger sometimes. Not only does he scare me, but he scares my dog and damages property. I don't want to live in fear of a blow-up.

These are things that I probably should write to him in a letter, once I've thought it through some more. I think it would make me feel better to get those out, at least, even if it does nothing.

[flourdust]

By all means, write a letter. That can help you with your process.

Do not send him this letter. It will not change things for the better. If you do send him a letter, it should only be after you have made arrangements for what is going to happen next, which will most likely be some kind of big change in your living circumstances and relationship.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree with flourdust. Definitely do not send him this letter unless your relationship is over and done and you're in a safe, secure, fortified location.

These truths which are so helpful for us to read, write and embrace are quite different for people with personality disorders. Reading a letter like that could trigger a rage response and if not that, at best will be perceived as blaming and shaming.

Is there a trusted friend you could share that letter with? I wrote long, complex letters like that when I was examining my relationship with my ex, who was physically and verbally abusive to me. After sharing these letters with a trusted friend, I could no longer sweep these behaviors under a rug and just go on as before. I had a witness to the abuse. I could no longer pretend that it would be better... .someday... .

[formflier]

Is there a middle ground here?

Is there a pragmatic solution to "create space" where you ask him to delay return.

I would suggest being honest.

"I need time to reflect on where I see our relationship.  It would mean a lot to me for you to remain there for 2 weeks.  Let's plan to talk on (insert date).  Please respect my need for space to sort out my feelings."

Here is the thing.  If he respects this request... .that would push my opinion one way... .if he doesn't respect it, i would lean another way.

Thoughts?

Reasons:  You are thinking big important things.  Not the kind of things you can process easily with him around.

FF

[Jami]

Here is the thing.  If he respects this request... .that would push my opinion one way... .if he doesn't respect it, i would lean another way.

Just a thought on FF's post: i would be careful with that interpretation... .a pwBPD sensing that his SO is drifting away might well play nice for a week or two out of fear of abandonment. In my experience that is precisely what happened. My ex mustered a deep respect for boundaries, increased empathy (though shallow in hindsight) and acceptance when he felt that i was giving the r/s some serious thought. He went as far as openly stating that he would do anything i wanted as long as we stayed together. I believe that positions and intentions should be assessed over a lengthier time than a couple of weeks to make sure they're real.

Writing a letter without sending it to him sounds like a great idea. Maybe you could write a letter to yourself
WitzEndWife. Reading it to a trusted friend also sounds great, it could give you some objective distance and feed back. Or, you can always post it here!

In any case, i hope you'll manage to buy some more time for yourself to think, process and reach clarity 

[WitzEndWife]

I think the reason I wouldn't ask for more time is that I don't really think it would do anything for me, other than solidify what I already know. He says that, when he gets back, he will be "digging into" working and building a career for himself. I guess part of me hopes that him doing so will make me feel like less of a mom, and it will also alleviate this whole self esteem issue, where he lashes out at me and others because he feels like a jobless loser. My gut says to let him do that, and if he does not follow through, I can decide to end things. Or if he rages again, of course, I can decide to end things.

Is this taking the "easy" way out? This feels like what I want to do, but am I just prolonging the inevitable?

[Cat Familiar]

I think the reason I wouldn't ask for more time is that I don't really think it would do anything for me, other than solidify what I already know... .

Is this taking the "easy" way out? This feels like what I want to do, but am I just prolonging the inevitable?

I wonder if part of your decision is based upon wanting him to be self-supporting?

[applesauce]

WitzEndWife - I've been following your thread and appreciate all the comments others have left and you sharing your story. I too fully support my husband and one of my fears in leaving is that he will take me to court in the divorce and I will end up paying him child support and/or alimony. He has access to all of my credit cards and bank account and I need to cut him off. Just last night he was talking about what a "loser" he is and why can't he do better at work/home/his health. He also lectured his son (my step-son) for about an hour about not ending up living on someone's couch because he can't take care of himself, sounds like projection! I will take the advice he gave our son and use it on him, make him more "responsible" for himself. Since it was his idea. When they give us those carrots, we need to grab them!

Good luck with your decision and with finding peace and happiness. Reading this thread today gave me some action items and that gets me one step closer to being out, because I've already made up my mind that's what I want to do. I know he senses it and is trying to do things to butter me up (as if finally making dinner one time is going to change my mind!) It is extremely helpful to read these posts when I feel myself slipping back into complacency. We're not alone and we deserve better.

[flourdust]

I think the reason I wouldn't ask for more time is that I don't really think it would do anything for me, other than solidify what I already know. He says that, when he gets back, he will be "digging into" working and building a career for himself. I guess part of me hopes that him doing so will make me feel like less of a mom, and it will also alleviate this whole self esteem issue, where he lashes out at me and others because he feels like a jobless loser. My gut says to let him do that, and if he does not follow through, I can decide to end things. Or if he rages again, of course, I can decide to end things.

Is this taking the "easy" way out? This feels like what I want to do, but am I just prolonging the inevitable?

The parts I bolded above could have been copied from many other messages you wrote over the last several months. What are you going to do that's new?

[GaGrl]

I had the same reaction as flourdust.

How many times has he made the same declarations/promises?

How many times has he followed through on those promises?

What does your gut tell you is the likelihood of his fulfilling those promises this time?

[Tattered Heart]

This topic has been locked due to length. You can find the continuation at the link below:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=314878.0