Her suicidal ideation...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Thank you all for your support. My feelings around loss is that it takes time. You cannot cheat time. She did get in contact with me last night and here is the conversation:

Her: How's things in your world?
Mr: Ok I guess
Her‬: What's wrong?
Me: You mean apart from you  leaving a conversation and not talking for 3 days?
Her: I've not been in a good place - I'm sorry if I hurt you
Me: Ok thank you. How are you?
Her‬: Not well - I can't get my head sorted
Me: What's going on in your head?
Her: I can't really explain without appearing over dramatic but I feel the need to be dead
Me: Yes you have talked about that alot. Are you feeling that on a daily basis?
Her‬: Yes and the feeling gets stronger
Me: Do you think you will act on it?
Her‬: I hope not
Me: If you do, promise that you will talk to me first.
Her‬: I will I promise. Night x
Me: Night x

I purposely put up a boundary last night because if she is going to treat me like her counsellor then I think it is fair to put up a boundary about how she leaves conversations. I am actually angry at the way she is dipping in and out of these conversations but if she is in crisis then I guess she needs somebody to talk to.

I am still suspicious that there is something else going on that she isn't telling me. She gives no detail about her life or what she has been up to and I have stopped posting things about what I'm doing on FB, though she can see my interactions with family and friends.

She did apologise for hurting me and I let it go due to what I consider her state of mind may be. I don't know if I am capable of a platonic r/s with this woman. I can feel anger, resentment and disappointment in me every time she makes contact.

[RomanticFool]

Thank you all for your support. My feelings around loss is that it takes time. You cannot cheat time. She did get in contact with me last night and here is the conversation:

Her: How's things in your world?
Mr: Ok I guess
Her‬: What's wrong?
Me: You mean apart from you  leaving a conversation and not talking for 3 days?
Her: I've not been in a good place - I'm sorry if I hurt you
Me: Ok thank you. How are you?
Her‬: Not well - I can't get my head sorted
Me: What's going on in your head?
Her: I can't really explain without appearing over dramatic but I feel the need to be dead
Me: Yes you have talked about that alot. Are you feeling that on a daily basis?
Her‬: Yes and the feeling gets stronger
Me: Do you think you will act on it?
Her‬: I hope not
Me: If you do, promise that you will talk to me first.
Her‬: I will I promise. Night x
Me: Night x

I purposely put up a boundary last night because if she is going to treat me like her counsellor then I think it is fair to put up a boundary about how she leaves conversations. I am actually angry at the way she is dipping in and out of these conversations but if she is in crisis then I guess she needs somebody to talk to.

I am still suspicious that there is something else going on that she isn't telling me. She gives no detail about her life or what she has been up to and I have stopped posting things about what I'm doing on FB, though she can see my interactions with family and friends.

She did apologise for hurting me and I let it go due to what I consider her state of mind may be. I don't know if I am capable of a platonic r/s with this woman. I can feel anger, resentment and disappointment in me every time she makes contact.

[RomanticFool]

Ducks, I take great heart in what you have said about it taking time to learn validation skills. Even though I am up and down emotionally regarding this r/s, I have resolved to try to help her.

I have also decided to talk to her about the suicide threats. I feel that if I do this in a validating way, I may be able to have a constructive conversation around it. These are tricky waters so help is appreciated. So far we have this today:

Me: Are you ok?
Her: Still here! How are you?
Me: Glad to hear it. It struck me today that you've been suicidal on and off for a great deal of your life  The fact you are still here must mean that you actually want to be, despite what your head tells you. Have I got that correct?
Her: I have never wanted to upset others which I'm guessing they would be but now the feeling has become as unemotional as flicking the off switch on a machine
Me: Yes, you say that often about upsetting others. Is that the only reason you are still here?
Her: That and the dread that with my luck it wouldn't happen and I'd be left a vegetable
Me: Yes, that is a reasonable concern. How would it feel to wake up and still be here again?
Her‬: I've been there - pretty damn ___
Me: Is there another choice to be made do you think? So you never have to feel that  

I'll update any reply.

[RomanticFool]

Here is the rest of the above conversation:

Me: Is there another choice to be made do you think? So you never have to feel that again?
Her: Rethink my modus operandi?
Me: Is suicide the only choice you see?
Her: It may very well come to that unless I can sort my fecking head out... .
Me: I understand you feel that now. Last year you texted me to say you felt good. I think it was around the time we saw that band the second time. I commented at the time that I had rarely heard you say that. Do you remember that at all?
Her: I don't.
Me: You texted me one day to say that you felt good. I was goiing to ask if you remember what gave you the sense of well being?
Her: Probably a feeling of self worth
Me: Right. I can really relate to that. Always feel great when I get a job or I'm with you or playing the piano. Do you know what was giving ypu the self worth?

I was wishing I hadn't mentioned the part about being with her as she may view this as manipulation which it isn't meant ro be but then I realised she hasn't yet read that last bit from me. However, it is much simpler than I thought. Her self esteem is on the floor. In my view this is to do with her image of herself, which is always unstable in a pwBPD. She is getting old, she feels unnoticed and unvalued. My next tact would be to mention her children but her moods have often been affected by the way she perceives they are treating her. Her husband is ill and losing his stability according to her.

I don't know what else to say but my instinct is to talk about the things that give her self esteem. She has awareness about it at least. I am concerned she may attempt suicide. Is there anything I can say that could help?

[heartandwhole]

I don't know what else to say but my instinct is to talk about the things that give her self esteem. She has awareness about it at least. I am concerned she may attempt suicide. Is there anything I can say that could help?

Hi RF,

I'm sorry to hear that your girlfriend is talking about suicide. I can tell from your text convos with her that you care. I think that is the most important thing that needs to be conveyed in times like these. A listening ear, validating her feelings, and asking her how you can help will go a long way, in my view.

Have you seen this thread? It's chock full of info. that can help:

Suicide Ideation in Others

Keep us posted.

heartandwhole

[babyducks]

This is very very difficult stuff RF.

By my understanding, she has mentioned, trying to find a reason to get up/wake up in the morning,  that she is so profoundly depressed nothing brings her joy, that upping the medication was her last resort, and that she feels she is heading for a crisis.

I see that H&W linked you to another thread.   It was the same one I was going to link you too.   From that thread is the suggestion to get help from persons or agencies specializing in crisis intervention and suicide prevention.   Often you can call anonymously.   There is a lot to be said for speaking to a trained professional live.

Skip wrote the second reply in the link thread.   Here is part of what he said:

4. Listen.

Give the person every opportunity to unburden his troubles and ventilate his feelings. You don't need to say much and there are no magic words. If you are concerned, your voice and manner will show it. Give him relief from being alone with his pain; let him know you are glad he turned to you. Patience, sympathy, acceptance. Avoid arguments and advice giving

I think the last part is the most important and the most difficult.   Avoid arguments and advice giving.   It has been my experience that when people reach this level of despondency they truly believe that nothing will change and nothing they do will help.    You can not talk them out of that feeling, they have to find it within themselves.    That can take a very long time.

Go ahead and take a look at the link, and let us know what you think.

'ducks

[Readyforsomechan]

Many folks seem to turn towards their ex for "relief" of their feelings... .vs actually learning to sit with them and feel them (aka coping.)

Sunflower: I Totally relate to this. Thank you for sharing.

[Sheila3636]

Many folks seem to turn towards their ex for "relief" of their feelings... .vs actually learning to sit with them and feel them (aka coping.)

This is HUGE

Very uncomfortable... .

Anxiety

Emptiness

Grief

Confusion

But the more we put them off the bigger they arE

[Skip]

She attempted suicide a few weeks back... .this is a very tenuous and serious situation.

What is going on with her post impatient treatment? Is she seeing a professional regularly? Is she taking medications? Is she talking with her husband? Family?

[RomanticFool]

She attempted suicide a few weeks back... .this is a very tenuous and serious situation.

What is going on with her post impatient treatment? Is she seeing a professional regularly? Is she taking medications? Is she talking with her husband? Family?

I wish I had the answers. All I know is that she was seen by the crisis team when she made the attempt. She tells me that her medication had been upped a few days ago but it is not working. She has depression related to a lack of dopamine in her system. That is what the medication is for.

She told me that her husband is ill (he had throat cancer some years ago and is not in good health) her youngest son lives at home and has autism and addiction issues and is driving her nuts. I don't know if there is any follow up care but I will ask her next time we speak. She goes to four AA meetings a week and is doing shifts ironically at a suicide prevention charity. Her other two children live away from her home town but seem relatively sensible and I will particularly encourage her to speak with her daughter who is a healthcare professional.

While I am alarmed at her words and very deeply concerned about her, this is not the first time she has expressed these kinds of feelings but I have never heard her say that she feels like she could flick out her life like a switch.

I saw on WhatsApp that she checked her phone at 4pm this after noon and I left a message for her at 9.15pm to which she hasn't yet replied.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks for the support all.

4. Listen.

Give the person every opportunity to unburden his troubles and ventilate his feelings. You don't need to say much and there are no magic words. If you are concerned, your voice and manner will show it. Give him relief from being alone with his pain; let him know you are glad he turned to you. Patience, sympathy, acceptance. Avoid arguments and advice giving

I will do this.

Have you seen this thread? It's chock full of info. that can help:

Suicide Ideation in Others

Keep us posted.

I will read this.

From that thread is the suggestion to get help from persons or agencies specializing in crisis intervention and suicide prevention.   Often you can call anonymously.   There is a lot to be said for speaking to a trained professional live.

Thanks for this. She works for a well known suicide prevention charity. I am going to encourage her to talk to somebody there also.

[RomanticFool]

Latest interaction at 10.30pm tonight:

Me:How are you doing?
Her: I'm ok - Daughter here so I feel a bit better. How's your day been?
Me: Glad you have company. Please tell your daughter how you're feeling. Do you have any after care from the crisis team?
Her: It's very limited - I'm more informed!
Me: I see. Is there any health professional you can talk to? Or anybody at the suicide prevention charity? I would encourage you to call anonymously if you don't want to talk to colleagues. I am going to check in with you regularly. I am always here to listen.

I will keep you updated on any replies. She is dipping in and out of conversations very sporadically but at least she is talking to me. Please let me know if you think there is anything else I should suggest.

[babyducks]

Just checking in with you RF,   how are you doing?

[RomanticFool]

Hi Ducks,

I am ok thank you. The ex says she is still suicidal and I have been in regular contact since last week. I have assured her that I am here if she needs to talk. I left her to spend time with her daughter yesterday but then she said she was still feeling suicidal after her daughter left. I suggested that she tell a member of her family how she feels, while being careful to tell her that I am here.

Then tonight (after a day of very little contact from her) she said she can't explain her feelings easily and I pointed out that she has explained them very succinctly: namely it is to do with lack of self worth. I gave a precis of our conversation about her feelings around suicidal ideation but she didn't reply. I suggested that she may be being evasive with me because she doesn't want to tell me something. I said if that is the case then she needs to tell somebody she trusts. I told her that sitting with suicidal feelings was not a good idea. I finished by saying: I am here, you are not alone.

I told her I felt she was being evasive because if there is something she doesn't want to tell me, then I want to encourage her to speak to somebody she feels comfortable talking to. I do feel there is something she is not telling me. I don't know what it is but I just have a sense there is something that she won't reveal. If I'm wrong then she will talk to me, if I am right then I have encouraged her to talk to somebody else.

I have done all I can. I have shown her kindness, understanding and empathy and most of all I have made it clear that I am here for her. It does get a little wearing thinking she is going to do it at any moment and not having her talk to me properly, but if she is depressed then that is how it manifests itself. I am trying to remain understanding and helpful. It's not always easy for me because I don't know how to help a suicidal person by texting - especially when they won't engage. It is extremely unsatisfying and is making me feel frustrated but I have offered her my ear.

Meanwhile I am getting on with my life and I had a good weekend with my wife. Nothing has really changed in my r/s and we jog along fine together. I do feel discontented and I miss the fix of my ex but I have seen her once this year romantically and that was 6 months ago, so I am back on the righteous path I guess... .

[babyducks]

Well RF,   I am no expert but I think there is a time for walking on egg shells and a time to smash a few egg shells.    To me this is a time for walking gently on egg shells.   

I think by it's very definition suicidal ideation is a lack of self esteem.    I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about cause and effect.    which came first the chicken or the egg.   

 

. It's not always easy for me because I don't know how to help a suicidal person by texting - especially when they won't engage. It is extremely unsatisfying and is making me feel frustrated but I have offered her my ear.

   

Yes I can see how it would feel that way to you.    You are invested.    You have a hoped for outcome. and you are right you have done what you could.   

Radical acceptance gives me the strength to stand in the moment and discover the path forward.   It might not be what I want, what I had devotedly hoped for, but this is what I have today.   If I can accept it,  Stop trying to change it, fight against it, or re-organize things more to my liking.   I can discover a path forward.    Who was the pundit who said 'let go or be dragged'.  who ever it was should have written the book on 'how to let go for dummies'.

For me I let go slowly and in stages.   Definitely wasn't like a light switch.    There was a time of grief and a time of regrouping.   Actually I think I am still regrouping.

Even though you haven't seen her in 6 months you are still pretty attached I think.   Do you have any strategies for letting go?   

'ducks

[patientandclear]

RF, I'm sorry to be a little harsh. But when you quote your exchanges with her, practically every time, you make it about you in some fashion, usually by offering yourself, your role, as some sort of answer to her feelings; sometimes by making an issue of her silences and withdrawals FROM YOU. Also, you argue with her about her own feelings and perceptions ("I can't easily explain my feelings;" "yes you can". My sense is it's hard for you to see that you are negating her feelings because you are generally providing some sort of compliment ("you were very skilled in telling me about your feelings last time". But it's still you telling her what is true about her.

This is not about you. I recommend repeating 1000 times to yourself "this is not about me and I don't have a role in addressing it."

There is a narcissism in introducing ourselves as a solution to the messed up state of mind of our partners. I spent years doing it with my exH so I am familiar with the sense of obligation, honor, duty, whatever, that drives that.  The fact is the most we often can contribute is conveying "I hear you, I'm sorry it feels so hard and painful," and then make a ton of space.

She cuts out of conversations with you when you take over. That's my perception. I have a strong aversion to engulfment myself and those convos would make me shut down too.

I think less is more here. Just acknowledge you heard what she is telling you. You can ask her to explain why she feels or thinks as she does, rather than arguing with what she tells you. You can listen to understand rather than to change or fix.

[RomanticFool]

Hi Ducks,

I am no expert but I think there is a time for walking on egg shells and a time to smash a few egg shells.    To me this is a time for walking gently on egg shells. 

I agree. Perhaps the comment about there is something she isn't telling me wasn't helpful in retrospect. Apart from that, I have kind of been walking on eggshells with her. I am becoming alarmed though because she is shutting down and it could be to do with her depression rather than anything I'm doing.

I think by it's very definition suicidal ideation is a lack of self esteem.    I would hesitate to draw any conclusions about cause and effect.    which came first the chicken or the egg.   

I think people kill themselves for all kinds of reasons, but I think in her case her self esteem is the root cause of it.

Radical acceptance gives me the strength to stand in the moment and discover the path forward.   It might not be what I want, what I had devotedly hoped for, but this is what I have today.   If I can accept it,  Stop trying to change it, fight against it, or re-organize things more to my liking.   I can discover a path forward.    Who was the pundit who said 'let go or be dragged'.  who ever it was should have written the book on 'how to let go for dummies'.

The main problem I have with this situation is I don't know how close she is to another suicide attempt. In the past she has told me many times that she is suicidal or severely depressed and I have often been able to talk and help her. My old style geeing her up works when she is depressed but because the nature of our r/s has changed the old suggestions are no longer what she wants to hear. My radical acceptance has to be around the nature of the r/s.

For me I let go slowly and in stages.   Definitely wasn't like a light switch.    There was a time of grief and a time of regrouping.   Actually I think I am still regrouping.

Even though you haven't seen her in 6 months you are still pretty attached I think.   Do you have any strategies for letting go?   

I suppose I am unsure of how to let go other than take our personal r/s out of the equation. I find it extremely difficult to do.

[RomanticFool]

Hi P&C,

I'm sorry to be a little harsh. But when you quote your exchanges with her, practically every time, you make it about you in some fashion, usually by offering yourself, your role, as some sort of answer to her feelings; sometimes by making an issue of her silences and withdrawals FROM YOU.

I don't think the conversations on this thread have been about me or our r/s. I agree I was doing that while I was trying to deal with the initial pain of the break up or detachment but I have tried to make these conversations about her feelings. Perhaps the most recent one wasn't quite as successful.

Also, you argue with her about her own feelings and perceptions ("I can't easily explain my feelings;" "yes you can". My sense is it's hard for you to see that you are negating her feelings because you are generally providing some sort of compliment ("you were very skilled in telling me about your feelings last time". But it's still you telling her what is true about her.

This is about getting to grips with the nature of validation. I agree I was doing that but I think the conversations on this thread show a more successful approach as she carried on talking to me. I think the most recent conversation was perhaps less successful. Add tiredness, exasperation and frustration into the equation and the empathy skills wane a little. I'm not a trained counsellor unfortunately or I'd be better at the validation. I'm learning how to do it in a crisis situation with somebody I love. So, yes, it is a bit hit and miss.

This is not about you. I recommend repeating 1000 times to yourself "this is not about me and I don't have a role in addressing it."

I don't feel like her state of mind is about me. I guess the role I have in redressing it is to be there for her. I certainly don't feel like I can 'save her' or any kind of rescue fantasies of that ilk. Once upon a time, yes, but not anymore.

There is a narcissism in introducing ourselves as a solution to the messed up state of mind of our partners. I spent years doing it with my exH so I am familiar with the sense of obligation, honor, duty, whatever, that drives that.  The fact is the most we often can contribute is conveying "I hear you, I'm sorry it feels so hard and painful," and then make a ton of space.

I certainly do have narcissistic tendencies at times but I think suggesting myself as a solution was because I genuinely thought it would help her in the way that it did in the past. Earlier this year (before the break up) she felt depressed and I went to see her and she said she felt much better afterwards. So this isn't just coming out of a place of narcissistic self indulgence. However, both the nature of our r/s has changed and she is clearly more depressed now than 6 months ago and so that solution now seems inappropriate. I certainly haven't been talking about us meeting up in the last week. I have been focusing on listening, exactly as you have outlined.

She cuts out of conversations with you when you take over. That's my perception. I have a strong aversion to engulfment myself and those convos would make me shut down too.

She has always cut out of conversations. It was one of the things that made me break up with her. It was also the source of great conflict between us in the past as I thought she was playing games with me. However, most of the time she is sneaking about her home with her husband watching her and so she has no choice but to conduct conversations in this way.

However, I am certain that she also does feel engulfment. Had I known about BPD in years gone by, I perhaps could have conducted my text conversations differently. I think I am possibly the wrong kind of person for her to be with,especially as I am a natural communicator and she is less so.  It does say in the literature that BPDs and narcissists often end up together, assuming I am somewhere on the lower end of the NPD spectrum. Interestingly, it seems to me that she is scared off very easily in texts, but much less so face to face. Not sure why really.

I think less is more here. Just acknowledge you heard what she is telling you. You can ask her to explain why she feels or thinks as she does, rather than arguing with what she tells you. You can listen to understand rather than to change or fix.

I don't think I have been arguing with her. I think what I have been doing is trying to bring some positivity into our conversations but I get that this is not helpful with suicidal ideation. Apart from the most recent conversation, I feel the validation was getting better. At least she is still talking to me, albeit not as openly.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have a concern I'm going to try to voice, not sure if my words will come out articulate, but going to try.

I recall somewhere you saying you were going to leave her be and focus on your marriage.  Then I recall somewhere you saying something to the affect of, well, I will not engage with her unless it is about the topic of her being suicidal.  

My concern is that our behavior communicates volumes.
At one point, she asks you how you are, and you do not respond to that question by her, instead, you bring up the topic of suicide.  (Effectively shifting focus off of you, back onto her, her in a victim role.)

My concern is that if you have set some personal boundary to only speak to her about suicide, or something similar, this in fact could be a form of "positive reinforcement" to her suicidal ideations.  Even if you never announce this to her, she may pick up on the fact that to get engagement with you, it is conditional on her speaking of suicide.

If this woman is in fact suicidal, I urge you greatly, to consistently redirect her to appropriate mental health professionals to engage her on this topic.  You may even want to out loud claim to her that you are not qualified to speak on certain topics of mental illness/depression/suicide, etc, as it is "best left to professionals."

Also, it is very common for pwBPD to try to gain interactions with folks by claiming a "victim status" and they often use self harm as a way to get attention for their inner pain and turmoil.  Many therapists actually themself have a rule of only speaking to a client about positive coping mechanisms prior to a self harm act but not allowing the client to be seen immediately following a self harm act.  The point is to not reinforce the behavior and not give it attention.  Likewise, In the case of your ex, it is possible that suicidal thinking is being reinforced to her via you inadvertently via the behavior you engage in.

My point... .
Suicide is a serious topic.  It is typically, imo, best one left to professionals.  
If someone is expressing such thoughts, imo, if I think they are in immediate danger... .
-best to call emergency personelle to look into it
If I think they are not in immediate danger... .
-only ask enough questions to gather if they could be in immediate danger, then refer them to resorces, treat them as though they are competent enough to choose getting their own help.  (After all, we canot will or beg someone into treatment, it IS ultimately their choice.  Maintaining treating them as a "helpless" schema mode is not empowering to them.). Continue to redirect them to resources, when that is completed in a few sentences, then move onto another topic, as imo, there is nothing for us to solve or gain by engaging in suicidal conversations with someone as long assuming this is not our client seeking treatment from us.

Her feelings are for her to manage, or seek help for via a professional.

Seems best in relationships to know where we begin and end, and to be responsible for only our own feelings.

If not, things can get muddy.

... .

I guess with all of this you run a risk... .
Will she still speak to you if you deny discussions about suicide?
Will you feel rejected?
How will you prepare yourself emotionally if she does decide to start distancing from you?
What coping skills are in your tool box to practice?
What more ones can we equip you with?

[Sunfl0wer]

Thinking that no matter the situation... .
Helping you to identify coping skills
And also aquire more tools for coping with your feelings
Is the most productive course here.

I wonder if you will discuss tools you are using, have found helpful, and how we can help you deal with unconfortable feelings and thoughts?

[formflier]

I think RF's "heart" is in the right place. 

I'm concerned about the ability to use tools, the ability to "learn" tools in the midst of a potential crisis, the ability to self reflect on what RF's role may be in this dynamic.

Said another way, if the overriding principle is "First do no harm... ." I'm concerned about the potential for reinforcing bad behavior (suicide talk).

Am I prepared to definitively say or "make a judgement" about this?... .no I'm not.  Those that know me around here know I'm usually not shy about firmly sharing a point of view. 

I made a deliberate decision to step out of these posts and "watch and reflect" for a few days.  Sunflower, P&C, ducks and others are posing the hard questions.  I see RF taking on board "little bits" and I see a lot of "pushback" on notions that RF is misusing tools or strategies.

Given the seriousness of the situation, this concerns me greatly.

Said another way, this is stuff for a professional, RF's heart is in right place but he is not a professional.  The question should be pondered... .if RF was not part of this dynamic, would she go to a professional?

Perhaps another way, why would she go to a professional when she can get her "needs" me with RF via text and she can cut and run whenever she feels like it?

RF,

I'm retired military.  I'm a "structure guy".  Unfortunately military life/experiences can be stressful and many people have suicidal ideations.  Unfortunately many actually go through with it.  I've stood graveside while a guy I flew with for over 10 years was lowered into the ground.  Suicide while deployed.  Big investigation.  We'll never know why he did it, but we DO KNOW that the issue was handled outside the "structure" of military medicine.  Well meaning "amateurs" handled it.

Is is the fault of the "amateurs"?... .no... I wouldn't go that far, but they did play a role.  I know for a fact they wish they could go back in time. 

Am I "too close" to suicide to play a useful role in this thread?  Perhaps... .I'll let mods and others weigh in on that and I'll certainly respect their decisions.

Actually experiencing a suicide of someone you care deeply about is life changing.  I hope you NEVER experience that. 

FF

[RomanticFool]

Hi all,

I will answer your points in more detail later. Just to say there is some valuable help in all of the points. Formflier has hit the nail on the head, my heart is in the right place. My only concern is to provide an ear for her. Any additional info I give to you guys about my own feelings does not get communicated. I have been encouraging my ex to seek professional help and talk to her family. I am not a doctor nor am I trying to become her 'amateur counsellor.'  I will say more later.

[formflier]

 My only concern is to provide an ear for her.   I am not a doctor nor am I trying to become her 'amateur counsellor.'  

OK... .then only provide an ear... .no pushback... .no "counseling"... .no alternatives... .don't "guide" any conversations... .

Just provide an ear.

To me... it seems there is a big disconnect between what "your concern" is and "what you are trying to do" and what we (as a group) see on the texts.


Let me ask this another way.  

Is there anyone giving you feedback here that is saying you are on the right track?

FF

[RomanticFool]

I'm listening to what people are saying. My ex is talking to me about how she feels. I don't think I am pushing.

I think people on here including yourself can see I am trying to do the right thing and there is more validation in the conversations. Considering where we were there is a major difference. I don't know if people here think I am the right track now, but I am asking for help and getting it.

[RomanticFool]

I just want to address a very important issue:

I'm concerned about the ability to use tools, the ability to "learn" tools in the midst of a potential crisis, the ability to self reflect on what RF's role may be in this dynamic.

Said another way, if the overriding principle is "First do no harm... ." I'm concerned about the potential for reinforcing bad behavior (suicide talk).

I totally agree with this and I am not going to mention suicide unless she specifically wants to talk to me about it. I am not a health professional, as you say. Today we have been talking about what I'm up to as she asked me and last night she thanked me for my concern.

Given the seriousness of the situation, this concerns me greatly.

Said another way, this is stuff for a professional, RF's heart is in right place but he is not a professional.  The question should be pondered... .if RF was not part of this dynamic, would she go to a professional?

Perhaps another way, why would she go to a professional when she can get her "needs" me with RF via text and she can cut and run whenever she feels like it?

I think she is seeing her crisis team who supported her through her recent attempt, although somewhat intermittently.

If she mentions suicide to me again then I will listen to her and urge her to see a doctor.

[RomanticFool]

RF,

I'm retired military.  I'm a "structure guy".  Unfortunately military life/experiences can be stressful and many people have suicidal ideations.  Unfortunately many actually go through with it.  I've stood graveside while a guy I flew with for over 10 years was lowered into the ground.  Suicide while deployed.  Big investigation.  We'll never know why he did it, but we DO KNOW that the issue was handled outside the "structure" of military medicine.  Well meaning "amateurs" handled it.

Is is the fault of the "amateurs"?... .no... I wouldn't go that far, but they did play a role.  I know for a fact they wish they could go back in time. 

Am I "too close" to suicide to play a useful role in this thread?  Perhaps... .I'll let mods and others weigh in on that and I'll certainly respect their decisions.

Actually experiencing a suicide of someone you care deeply about is life changing.  I hope you NEVER experience that.

FF, I am sorry for your loss. I have taken on board your point here and will heed it. I asked for advice from people here because I do NOT want to experience loss to a suicide. I am trying to do the right thing here.

[formflier]

If she mentions suicide to me again then I will listen to her and urge her to see a doctor.

What would happen if you called 911 where she lived and had professionals check on her?

So... switch it up.

She talks suicide to you.  Police and EMS are at her door.  How many more times do you think she talks suicide to you?

That way... .if your r/s goes forward... .there is no more talk of suicide.

If the relationship does not go forward... .there is no more talk of suicide.

Asked another way... .have the methods you have been using ended the talk of suicide?

Have they encouraged it?

FF

[RomanticFool]

Sunfl0wer,

My concern is that if you have set some personal boundary to only speak to her about suicide, or something similar, this in fact could be a form of "positive reinforcement" to her suicidal ideations.

What I was trying to do was establish whether she was still feeling suicidal and urge her to seek help. I don't think I was going about it the right way, so thank you for your input.

If this woman is in fact suicidal, I urge you greatly, to consistently redirect her to appropriate mental health professionals to engage her on this topic.  You may even want to out loud claim to her that you are not qualified to speak on certain topics of mental illness/depression/suicide, etc, as it is "best left to professionals."

I have been suggesting to her to speak to professionals. She told me that she sees her crisis team intermittently. She has given me no other details apart from that some days ago. I don't want to discourage her from talking to me, but if she mentions suicide again, I will suggest again that she seeks help.

Also, it is very common for pwBPD to try to gain interactions with folks by claiming a "victim status" and they often use self harm as a way to get attention for their inner pain and turmoil.  Many therapists actually themself have a rule of only speaking to a client about positive coping mechanisms prior to a self harm act but not allowing the client to be seen immediately following a self harm act.  The point is to not reinforce the behavior and not give it attention.  Likewise, In the case of your ex, it is possible that suicidal thinking is being reinforced to her via you inadvertently via the behavior you engage in.

I don't know about this and don't feel qualified to comment. The only thing I know is what she has told me: the last time she tried to kill herself she said it was because she felt alone and then blamed me. This was during our break up. People on here have suggested not to take her apportioning blame to heart, what I am going to do is be there for her to talk to. That is all I can do.

Suicide is a serious topic.  It is typically, imo, best one left to professionals.  
If someone is expressing such thoughts, imo, if I think they are in immediate danger... .
-best to call emergency personel to look into it
If I think they are not in immediate danger... .
-only ask enough questions to gather if they could be in immediate danger, then refer them to resorces, treat them as though they are competent enough to choose getting their own help.  (After all, we canot will or beg someone into treatment, it IS ultimately their choice.  Maintaining treating them as a "helpless" schema mode is not empowering to them.). Continue to redirect them to resources, when that is completed in a few sentences, then move onto another topic, as imo, there is nothing for us to solve or gain by engaging in suicidal conversations with someone as long assuming this is not our client seeking treatment from us.

I don't know if she is in immediate danger. She has been telling me that she is suicidal for months. Given that she has already tried it this year, I am taking it seriously, hence being on here.

I have taken on board your message about getting health professionals and emergency services on board. However, I am not a physical presence in her life and unless she tells me that she is going to do it this very moment, I will have to hope that her husband will be watching her closely enough to call them in.

Her feelings are for her to manage, or seek help for via a professional.

Seems best in relationships to know where we begin and end, and to be responsible for only our own feelings.

If not, things can get muddy.

I hear you and agree with you.

I guess with all of this you run a risk... .
Will she still speak to you if you deny discussions about suicide?
Will you feel rejected?
How will you prepare yourself emotionally if she does decide to start distancing from you?
What coping skills are in your tool box to practice?
What more ones can we equip you with?

It has gone beyond my feelings at the moment. I am just making sure she is safe. I will listen to her and suggest she go to a health professional. She has already distanced herself from me (many times during our r/s) and I am used to it.

In terms of coping skills you are all helping me enormously. If you see any red flags please shout. I am acting on the advice I receive here.

[formflier]

I am trying to do the right thing here.

And we are trying to show you the right thing... .or help you "discern" the right thing.

It is obvious your heart is in the right place.

It's not so obvious your methods are.

Changing your heart is hard.

Charnging your methods are less so... .although anything done from a "tough love" point of view... .is ... ."tough" for both sides, because it is usually different.

FF

[RomanticFool]

What would happen if you called 911 where she lived and had professionals check on her?

So... switch it up.

She talks suicide to you.  Police and EMS are at her door.  How many more times do you think she talks suicide to you?

That way... .if your r/s goes forward... .there is no more talk of suicide.

If the relationship does not go forward... .there is no more talk of suicide.

Asked another way... .have the methods you have been using ended the talk of suicide?

Have they encouraged it?

The thought of calling emergency services has occurred to me and if I thought she was in immediate danger I would do it.

She hasn't talked about suicide yesterday or today. I don't get the impression talking to me has encouraged it, I feel she needed somebody to listen - that was a few days ago. I asked her how she felt today and she said 'much the same' but she didn't mention the word suicide.  I don't know if the suicide talk has ended. The only 'method' I am using is listening to her and validating her feelings.

[formflier]

I will have to hope that her husband will be watching her closely enough to call them in.

So... .help me understand not letting him handle it all.  

If there is trust enough in him to call EMS when needed... .why not trust him enough to "be there" for her when she needs to talk... .text... .whatever.

It seems that you intuitively get that a person "on site"... .or physically there... .is in a much better position to "help'.

Yet... .you are still playing a virtual role.

There seems to be a disconnect.  Either trust him to handle it and let him handle it.

Or... .if you are really needed... .and your judgement is correct that she needs help... .send help to her.

The middle ground seems dangerous... .

FF