Likely my last financial boundary enforcement option

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

There should be plenty in (name of bank) for filling up gas, trip down here, some groeries... .etc etc.

Please give me a heads up if you forsee needing to spend anything over a couple hundred bucks out of it.

FYI:  (name of renters) are supposed to be all caught up next week.  Roughly $3k coming in from them (if it shows)... .

So... .money should be a bit easier this month, but I would still ask to coordinate with me ahead of time for spending out of (name of bank).  Thanks so much for doing that up to this point.

Love,

FF

Above is a friendly (I believe) email I sent as a matter of doing first of the month bills.  I would have given my wife and I above average grades for getting along (moneywise... and otherwise) for the past several weeks.

Because of my Dad's stroke, there has been lots of travelling and apart time.  My wife is travelling this weekend to be with my Dad and I.  The long weekend gives a chance for little kids to spend time with my Dad.

Anyway... .back to finances.  We had a phone conversation yesterday after this email and she worried a bit about gas for the trip down.  I mentioned the email said that things were tight, but it would work out.  She acknowledged this.

Backstory.  My 17 year old wants a nice toolbox/rolling cart for his birthday.  Entire family will use it in the garage.  Wife and I agreed to this, with the agreement that we would find money to get it later in September.  Basically agreed on concept but wait to pull trigger until we are all ok with money.

So... last night right before starting the drive down.

My wife pulls out $303 in cash.  $3 is fee.

Spends $567.85 at a wharehouse store.  $100 of that is cash.  The rest of it is the toolbox and some accompanying items.  Tool box is $399.99.

To put this in context... .one of the mortgages I was paying was $810.  My wife knows this.

For those that know me... .there is a long history of financial misdeeds from my wife... towards me or my family.  This is our last joint account.   Perhaps she is testing to see if I will really close the last one.

I'm leaving to drive to the bank and start the process of closing it.  Or turning off her access... .I really don't know.

Very painful because so much of our bills and business flows through this account.

Had a long talk via phone with psychologist this morning.  She has coached me some on how to break the news.  Basically I will be informing my wife of action I have taken.

Again... .long history here.

Grey Kitty has probably been the strongest one on here asking ":)ude... .?  Why do you keep making agreements with her (financial or otherwise)?"

Have I lost hope for the relationship?  No... I haven't.  But I also must face the reality.  She is going to do what she wants to when it comes to finances.  For whatever reason, the since of entitlement is too big.

The reasons really don't matter... ultimately.  The financial result is the same.  The money shows up in my name, I'm responsible for protecting that money and providing for my family.

Pretty simple concept.

I'm open for ideas, questions... .thoughts... . 

It's weird... .I was mad last night when I found out... .for about 10 minutes.  I'm really a bit sad today.  

I don't "exactly" know what this will look like.  Hence my trip to the bank... .heading out in 10 minutes.

FF

[formflier]

There should be plenty in (name of bank) for filling up gas, trip down here, some groeries... .etc etc.

Please give me a heads up if you forsee needing to spend anything over a couple hundred bucks out of it.

FYI:  (name of renters) are supposed to be all caught up next week.  Roughly $3k coming in from them (if it shows)... .

So... .money should be a bit easier this month, but I would still ask to coordinate with me ahead of time for spending out of (name of bank).  Thanks so much for doing that up to this point.

Love,

FF

Above is a friendly (I believe) email I sent as a matter of doing first of the month bills.  I would have given my wife and I above average grades for getting along (moneywise... and otherwise) for the past several weeks.

Because of my Dad's stroke, there has been lots of travelling and apart time.  My wife is travelling this weekend to be with my Dad and I.  The long weekend gives a chance for little kids to spend time with my Dad.

Anyway... .back to finances.  We had a phone conversation yesterday after this email and she worried a bit about gas for the trip down.  I mentioned the email said that things were tight, but it would work out.  She acknowledged this.

Backstory.  My 17 year old wants a nice toolbox/rolling cart for his birthday.  Entire family will use it in the garage.  Wife and I agreed to this, with the agreement that we would find money to get it later in September.  Basically agreed on concept but wait to pull trigger until we are all ok with money.

So... last night right before starting the drive down.

My wife pulls out $303 in cash.  $3 is fee.

Spends $567.85 at a wharehouse store.  $100 of that is cash.  The rest of it is the toolbox and some accompanying items.  Tool box is $399.99.

To put this in context... .one of the mortgages I was paying was $810.  My wife knows this.

For those that know me... .there is a long history of financial misdeeds from my wife... towards me or my family.  This is our last joint account.   Perhaps she is testing to see if I will really close the last one.

I'm leaving to drive to the bank and start the process of closing it.  Or turning off her access... .I really don't know.

Very painful because so much of our bills and business flows through this account.

Had a long talk via phone with psychologist this morning.  She has coached me some on how to break the news.  Basically I will be informing my wife of action I have taken.

Again... .long history here.

Grey Kitty has probably been the strongest one on here asking ":)ude... .?  Why do you keep making agreements with her (financial or otherwise)?"

Have I lost hope for the relationship?  No... I haven't.  But I also must face the reality.  She is going to do what she wants to when it comes to finances.  For whatever reason, the since of entitlement is too big.

The reasons really don't matter... ultimately.  The financial result is the same.  The money shows up in my name, I'm responsible for protecting that money and providing for my family.

Pretty simple concept.

I'm open for ideas, questions... .thoughts... . 

It's weird... .I was mad last night when I found out... .for about 10 minutes.  I'm really a bit sad today.  

I don't "exactly" know what this will look like.  Hence my trip to the bank... .heading out in 10 minutes.

FF

[Panda39]

For what it's worth, I think you are setting the right boundary you have to protect your family (and her from herself).

My guess is the sadness you feel is because she had an opportunity to act as a financially responsible adult/mom/wife and failed... .disappointment.

Panda39

[formflier]

Yeah... .there is a reason I write the emails I do and conduct my phone calls the way I do.

To remove all doubt as to choice... .versus... .confusion.

I plan on having private time with her tomorrow.  Will let her know new financial structure then.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm sorry to hear about your dad's health FF.

It made me think tho... .
I wonder if this is triggering to her? (Not that there needs to be a "reason"
Just wondering if treating her a bit like "a hero" or "rescuer" a bit would help her feel more up to rising to the occassion of driving kids to you and such... .maybe help her cope with feelings of abandonment of you spending time away.

Idk really, just throwing it out there in case... .
Just was wondering how to care for both sides of things... .  The family finances, (which you got covered) and also supporting her adjustment issues. 

Sounds like a fair response tho, to secure needed monies in a way you can.
And yea, sounds like a sad place to be, and tricky time to be there.
Especially when it would be a great time for one to be selflessly supported.

[formflier]

Yep... .I do plan to listen... .I do plan to be deliberate about being "non-reactive".

Again... at it's core, it's math.  Mortgages are scheduled to come out, it's important that money be there when the electronic check comes through, she knew via e-mail and phone she had "a couple hundred" bucks of wiggle room... .we had been doing so good.

There is... .of course... a relationship thing on top of this.  Or... what once qualified as a relationship.  Psychologist asked me today to walk here through some of the financial misdeeds over the years.  I suppose from a point of view they are getting somewhat better, it's generally from some sort of boundary being in place that wasn't there before.

Wife' grumps a bit... .then it becomes the new normal. 

Yeah... .and all of this against the backdrop of... ."wouldn't it be a nice time to be supported". 

There was about 1.5 months of solid... .over the top support.  Seriously... .I was pinching myself.  I realized it wouldn't last.  It would take me a minute or two... but I can tell you the day it switched... .poof... .

Had something to do with her family... sister... .something.

Since then it's been "workable".  Some days we have good conversations... .other days she's covered with anxiety.

Sigh.  They'll be here in an hour and a half or so.

FF

[babyducks]

formflier,

I have been reading your posts for a long time now.   probably a couple of years, right?    I've read as your marriage devolved into this unequal, disconnected, tit for tat, she does this, you do that reactionary, obstructionist game of whack a mole.

And it just occurred to me that not everyone plays whack a mole.   It's actually what it sounds like.   Lawn chair,   croquet mallet,   sit on the lawn and wait for the mole to pop up, hit in on the head with the mallet.   

I get that you have 8 children.   and that you are invested in your family life. 

But help me see the big picture here FF.    You always say you are a big picture guy.    How does this pattern of she takes a child to her sisters,  you react,... .she empties a bank account,  you react,  etc etc how does that create a more healthy marriage?     How does that create a more equal, open, authentic relationship?     

How does that model a healthy loving adult relationship for your children?   Regardless of her actions you just locked your wife out of your last joint account.   What's the big picture message here about shared responsibility?

What I've noticed too is that how you describe your interactions with your wife is now tinged with scorn and derision.    It's "BPDish Blather",   she "grumps a bit",   it's blah blah blah.    I wonder, do you have any respect left for your wife as an adult woman?  Or is she just a problem to be managed.

I get that financial picture you describe.   I can do the math.   I don't think that, at it's core it's math.   What I see, is a lot different.    What I see are two people who are constitutionally incapable of working together as respected partners.   At least in the manner you prefer to work together.   

I don't believe you can out manage, out think, out battle, control, or coerce mental illness or some one who takes actions because of a mental illness.    It's always going to be whack a mole.    and the thing about whack a mole,... .you are always the one holding a mallet.   you are always the one waiting to take that next violent swing.

'ducks

[formflier]

There is a lot of truth in what you say.

I don't respect her any more.  I don't like her.

My father is dying, she knows this.  She "accidentally" left one of my kids 8 hours away. After we made specific plans to bring 5 and specifically said it was ok to leave S17... .she left the 4 grader.

She didn't think I would mind... .

Now she is in the shower... .ranting... .praying that I stop acting like a two year old... .that I haven't changed in all the years of marriage... .

And... .we haven't even talked about finances yet.

No... .I don't respect her.  She's not respectable.  If your word doesn't mean anything... .I don't respect people like that.  If one of those people is my wife.  So be it.


FF

[Learn each day]

formflier,

I have been reading your posts for a long time now.   probably a couple of years, right?    I've read as your marriage devolved into this unequal, disconnected, tit for tat, she does this, you do that reactionary, obstructionist game of whack a mole.

And it just occurred to me that not everyone plays whack a mole.   It's actually what it sounds like.   Lawn chair,   croquet mallet,   sit on the lawn and wait for the mole to pop up, hit in on the head with the mallet.   

I get that you have 8 children.   and that you are invested in your family life. 

But help me see the big picture here FF.    You always say you are a big picture guy.    How does this pattern of she takes a child to her sisters,  you react,... .she empties a bank account,  you react,  etc etc how does that create a more healthy marriage?     How does that create a more equal, open, authentic relationship?     

How does that model a healthy loving adult relationship for your children?   Regardless of her actions you just locked your wife out of your last joint account.   What's the big picture message here about shared responsibility?

What I've noticed too is that how you describe your interactions with your wife is now tinged with scorn and derision.    It's "BPDish Blather",   she "grumps a bit",   it's blah blah blah.    I wonder, do you have any respect left for your wife as an adult woman?  Or is she just a problem to be managed.

I get that financial picture you describe.   I can do the math.   I don't think that, at it's core it's math.   What I see, is a lot different.    What I see are two people who are constitutionally incapable of working together as respected partners.   At least in the manner you prefer to work together.   

I don't believe you can out manage, out think, out battle, control, or coerce mental illness or some one who takes actions because of a mental illness.    It's always going to be whack a mole.    and the thing about whack a mole,... .you are always the one holding a mallet.   you are always the one waiting to take that next violent swing.

'ducks

I'm fairly new here but I am confused. Is there a question in this? Are you asking why he continues this relationship? Are you asking why he isn't more respectful? Just curious.

LED

[formflier]

  What's the big picture message here about shared responsibility?
 

It's a fair question.

My answer is, and please challenge me others see it differently, that you can't share responsibility with someone that can't keep their word.  Even if the reason they can't keep their word is a mental illness.

Do I wish I knew more about boundaries and had better ones earlier... yes.  But... I'm here... now... and once again my wife has taken action to spend against our agreements and communication.

My email is as open, honest and authentic as I can get.   There were 2-3 phone conversations about money as well.  Friendly... .she expressed some worry about "all the bills" that came out of this account and would there be enough for the trip.  Yes... .there would.  Not one word about taking out between 8 and 900 bucks.

I realize that mental illness skews things and I don't think that changes my response.

Big picture:  I see the whack a mole analogy, I don't find it helpful for my current or recent situations.  Again... .if people think I am missing the "big picture"... please expand on their view.

Personally... I use the castle wall analogy.  Money comes in that is in my name and I keep it behind my castle wall.  I open small doors with agreements (budget, talks, emails) about who gets to come in and take things out of the castle.

If anyone repeatedly breaks their word about those agreements, the doors shut.

If anyone continues to ram into the castle wall afterwords... that's their choice.  If they get a lump on their head... .I hate it for them.

If they want to claim I hit them with a mallet... .that's their business.  The castle walls are my business.  What is inside those walls are my business.

If "anyone" turns out to be my wife... .or have a mental illness... or both... .does it change my response?

I do get that this is unhealthy model... in fact... I agree.  

I do think, should it over be appropriate to shine the light of day on this for my kids that this is the appropriate lesson to teach them  Clarity:  Not suggesting I show them this now... .or perhaps ever, but responding to what my actions "teach" my kids.

FF

[formflier]

But help me see the big picture here FF.    You always say you are a big picture guy.    How does this pattern of she takes a child to her sisters,  you react,... .she empties a bank account,  you react,  etc etc how does that create a more healthy marriage?     How does that create a more equal, open, authentic relationship?     
 

So... .my goal on posting here is to problems solve and evaluate if there is another... .perhaps better... healthier way.

I don't want to be argumentative.  I do want there to be a clear picture of the dynamic.  "Reacting" to my wife is certainly an incomplete point of view.

In both of the "sister incidences" I was proactive.  I went to her with a situation and asked for her thoughts.  She asked for mine.  It's more clear in the first "incident" that I deferred to her idea as part of compromise.  Neither of us were mad or contentious during the compromise.  Had it not been for what happened afterwords, I would have held it up as a success story about what being "proactive, friendly and listening" can do for a relationship.

In both cases, even after the fact, she acknowledges what the agreement is/was.  She essentially says it doesn't matter... .the Bible allows her to make such changes.

So... .yes... .after she takes an action I do "react".  I'm open to suggestions about how I could have reacted differently.  How I could have been more proactive?  Anything else that I control... that I could have done differently.

FF

[I_Am_The_Fire]

I don't know if this could help or not. I'm just throwing this out there as an idea. Would it help if she had her own account with money she can spend however she wants? Leave the joint account for normal bills and put a little bit of money here and there in a separate account for her?

[babyducks]

I don't respect her any more.  I don't like her.

Yeah I am not surprised to hear you say that.   I noticed.   I am sorry.   That has to hurt.   The thing is if I noticed, out here from the end of the internet, I am guessing others have noticed as well.   I am guessing it's your oldest kids.    I know you wouldn't say anything like that to them, but kids are wizards at picking up subtle messages.

The castle walls are my business.  What is inside those walls are my business.

It sounds like a lonely way to live.   I am sure others will be along to talk about the practical matters of how to open/close bank accounts.   I think some one will come along with good advice on how to communicate.    I am wondering how high and thick those castle walls are going to have to get.

In both cases, even after the fact, she acknowledges what the agreement is/was.  She essentially says it doesn't matter... .the Bible allows her to make such changes.

So... .yes... .after she takes an action I do "react".  I'm open to suggestions about how I could have reacted differently.  How I could have been more proactive?  Anything else that I control... that I could have done differently.

maybe there was some way to be more proactive.   maybe there was some way to communicate better.  I will be a little surprised if it something you haven't already thought of them because you have been around here a long time.   I think it's fair to wonder how you could have influenced things to go any differently since she doesn't think it matters.

What do you want FF?    In a healthier relationship there is a trusted give and take between equal partners.  :)o you think it's possible that if you rise to become the best communicator you can be, she will change?    If things are managed with accuracy and intense energy will it be possible to avoid events like the bank account or the children being in the wrong place.   How's that going to work for you?  

I am truly sorry that there is another event going on in your family as your Dad lays sick.   I find it sad that you are here, talking with us about conflict when I am sure your heart and attention is with your Father.   That's just me.    I hope today is more peaceful.

'ducks

[babyducks]

I'm fairly new here but I am confused. Is there a question in this? Are you asking why he continues this relationship? Are you asking why he isn't more respectful? Just curious.

LED

Hi LED

Welcome to the family.   I don't want to hijack FF's thread but I will do a little side bar to answer your post.

When we first arrive here, most of us are in crisis.   We don't have a good understanding of BPD, maybe our communication skills are a little rusty.   We are, as you say, confused.

There is an assumption though that if you have been here and have a few hundred posts under belt, you have worked your way down the list of lessons found in the box to the right     You have learned.   I like your screen name, by the way.

For me I learned, first about BPD, then about relationships tools, communication, boundaries, then I learned about my role in the relationship (step 3  |--->  and last I learned about why my role in the dysfunction mattered so much to me.   There are levels of understanding.  

In a relationship with a disordered person it's easy to misplace our sense of self.  We spend so much time and energy focused on our partners.   It's easy to fuse with a role, or a dynamic that may not serve us well in the long run.   If some one hadn't pointed that out to me I would have never known.

hope this helps
'ducks

[toomanydogs]

Hey FF,
  I'm bouncing between the two forums: conflicted & over. I like to read your posts because you have been so insightful with your responses to my posts.
  I am struck by the accuracy of Ducks' observation that living as you do with such a disordered wife sounds really lonely, and my heart goes out to you. Not much advice in that statement, but true. My heart does go out to you.
  Regarding the money: I had thought that my own H's response to money had to do with his being quite well-off. I now see that it's more a BPD thing, so I can tell you what I did with varying degrees of success throughout our 10-year relationship.
  Keeping money separate, so he couldn't see it--at all--worked the best. Individual accounts. He still overdrew his account with great regularity, and  for a few reasons I won't explain right now, I paid the fees. His not seeing how much money we had was the only way money didn't create a problem in our relationship. Unfortunately, once he saw the amount of money, no matter how I appealed to him about needing that money to pay bills, he wanted control of it.
  The easiest time I had with money was when his family cut him off, and he was dependent on me for spending (that, by the way, included sharing my food stamps with him, as I was that broke).
  What I'm saying here or advising is what someone else had suggested, let her have an individual account that she can spend as she sees fit, and you manage the rest of it, without her ever seeing it.
  I wouldn't count on her ever being able to understand or appreciate the need to spend money wisely (and, believe me, I do not consider myself particularly good with money or having a great deal of fiscal restraint, but I can manage not to over draft. )
  I understand you're on this board because you are conflicted about your marriage, and I also understand you are Christian and appreciate the sanctity of marriage. Again, my heart goes out to you.
 Only you will ever be able to decide when, if ever, to leave the marriage, or when you are emotionally done with it. I know you wrote you don't respect your wife. I don't respect my husband either. After all that he did to me and so many others, I couldn't respect him. BPD or not, there comes a point when a person absolutely must take responsibility for his or her actions.
  I didn't see my H taking responsibility, and, from what you write, I don't see your wife taking responsibility.
  Your heart seems so big to me, and I hope that all you go through with your wife--all the ups and downs, all the disappointments, all the times being pulled away from your own needs, such as being with your dad--doesn't close your heart off. 
  Take care,
TMD

[GaGrl]

FF's wife has a FT job and does have her own account.

His, hers and ours accounts.

Thus FF's frustration.

[toomanydogs]

FF's wife has a FT job and does have her own account.

His, hers and ours accounts.

Thus FF's frustration.

Ahh. Then my advice would be, if feasible, to close all joint accounts and not reopen them.
TMD

[sweetheart]

Hi ff, hi ducks 

This is indeed a funny one. What I came to realise is that my h would blow up any boundary around finances and then some. It took a while to really see that no matter what we tried he just couldn't manage money. We had lots of conversations about lots of different possibilities but the outcome were always the same. Chaos and no money.

I kept thinking of course he can do this, of course it will come together and he will sort it, but other stuff just kept getting in the way for him and chaos would ensue.

Mental illness like BPD as i now understand it can impair executive functioning so your wife's ability to problem solve, prioritise, organise, remember things, plan and pay attention to what's important outside of her immediate frame of reference maybe severely compromised. This is not something she can change, this is outside her control no matter how many emails, texts or conversations you have with her. This would be true around many other areas you and she still struggle with.

By way of an example, my son is 9 he has autism and ADHD, he struggles with areas that require him to remember, plan, and organise all sorts of things every day. He forgets road safety when he is out and about and I have to preempt this in order to keep him safe. Now if I ask him about road safety he will confidently tell me everything he needs to do.
If I ask him what he needs to do each morning to get himself ready he will tell me. When each morning comes he can usually be found toothbrush in hand staring out his bedroom window watching the birds with no inclination of what he was just in the process of doing. So I have to prompt and support his morning routine. My h is exactly the same, he is unable to translate what he knows to do into actionable behaviour, no matter how many times we have the same conversation.
My son's psychiatrists answer to me when I asked him if I keep reinforcing the necessary information will my son eventually change his behaviour was to say, 'it's like expecting a short person to suddenly grow tall.' So in other words, change is highly unlikely without some form of therapeutic intervention.

So over the years that we have been together my h and I have moved away from joint accounts to separate accounts, but by way of mutual agreement. He fully accepts that he cannot manage money, and I accept that he can't and that's ok. So I went on to manage all the money, pay the bills, run the house, allocate personal spends based on what was then available.

My h is currently detained in an acute psychiatric hospital and I still with his permission manage his money for him. This works for us. He could have given over this responsibility to his social worker, but as we have decided to remain together, but not live together for now, it felt ok to carry on as we had before.

I was always amazed that my h got to a place to be able to say, I'm rubbish at this, I just can't manage this, will you help me? I think he got to this place because within our relationship it was ok for him to mess up and not be judged for messing up.

I will say though ff, that dislike and lack of respect for your wife makes IMHO for a very skewed dynamic when seeking to resolve your ongoing issues. Without acceptance of the limitations she faces, in trying always to call her to task for things that I believe are really outside her control, must feel very punishing to her, placing you albeit inadvertently in the role as her aggressor. The absence of respect and intrinsic positive regard for our partners can be a breeding ground for abusive, controlling and negative behaviours arising from within us if we leave them unaddressed. 

Is there a way that you can accept that your wife faces limitations and certain impaired functioning that no matter how many times you discuss things she cannot change her behaviour?

Could you begin to be more proactive in preempting the behaviours that you find most difficult from your wife and then help steer the situation around her to facilitate a better outcome?

How might the negative feelings you have toward your wife influence your conversations with her when seeking to resolve problems? ( one for your T perhaps not here)

[Sunfl0wer]

In a healthier relationship there is a trusted give and take between equal partners

I wonder... .
What about radical acceptance

Would we ever be aspiring to achieve a trusted give/take of an "equal partnership" in a r/s with a pwBPD?

Myabe I am misunderstanding, idk.

Seems to me, sometimes we are simply doing the best we can with what we've got... .for us... .for the other person... .for the kids... .and any other parties in proximity, affect-able.  
Really... .what more is there?  
(Than our best with any given position we may be in)
Literally do no know

[flourdust]

Hey, ff. Like babyducks, your statement about not liking your wife any more leapt out at me. I am also sorry. I know you've been trying hard to salvage something of this relationship.

I won't comment on the financial stuff, because I think you've got that well in hand. You have to enforce some unpleasant rules, but they're necessary for the financial stability of your family.

When you made that comment about not respecting or liking your wife, I had the sense you were writing from a place of emotional distress. Can you come back to that when you're feeling more centered, not as much under assault from her? Are those feelings still there? (It's important - and challenging - to try to be honest about this. Full disclosure: I put up with too much abuse for too long in my marriage because I would bury my negative feelings when I wasn't being actively painted black. It took a loong time before I was able to be honest with myself about them, even when emotionally calm.)

[formflier]

 
FD,

Yeah... there was emotional distress... .yes I likely said that a bit strongly.  Yet... that feeling is there.   Feelings aren't absolute (black/white). 

The negative feelings about my wife ( or perhaps apathy is better description) have grown.

When she is normal we have a pleasant relationship.  As you guys have likely seen on here, I choose times when I'm interested in closeness and "manipulate" the push/pull cycle to have some closeness for a while and then push away a bit.

One of the startling things the psychologist had me do was to get a calendar and put dysregulations on a timeline.  Actually... perhaps dysregulation is not the word I'm looking for... .sabotage is likely better.  Basically there was a pattern of things being really close and wonderful, I would relax and during the relaxed stage she would do really whacky things (like calling opposing counsel in legal matters... .)  Basically closeness was another trigger for paranoia. 

Well... .anyway, it's kind of nice to know that from time to time, I can have a more close relationship... .but that's looking small picture.  The big pictures is my wife and I have a majorly dysfunctional relationship that gives me little satisfaction.

I do get a great deal of satisfaction from other relationships in my life.  I'm very deliberate about seeking them out and nurturing them.  Does it completely make up for it the "hole" left... .no.  But it makes things manageable.

Also... .in true FF style, the big picture is that things have gotten a lot better since the "bad days" (CPS... no sleep... etc etc).  The reality is that it is likely that "we" are pretty close to the "top" of improvement without some sort of active participation from my wife. Her doing therapy and actually looking at herself.

Unlikely that will ever happen. 

FF

[formflier]

Financial stuff. 

I "tricked" her into overspending and the purpose of the email I sent her was to "make it look" like she broke an agreement.

No responsibility whatsoever for it.

She said she didn't want my money... .she had her own job... .I could "keep it all".

Basically... .I attempted to have a conversation and understand her thinking, reasoning... etc etc.  Not a quote, but generally the thought was that I should have been more clear that she "could not" spend... .she "shouldn't have" to ask.

I didn't engage on much of it...

I've done some temp measures to limit financial exposure.  The pain in the a$$ of closing that account is astronomical  She says she will take her name off of it.

Ummm... .I have like 8 or 9 accounts at this one bank.  If you close them you only get a limited time to download records and you loose the ability to log in an query years old transactions.

I have lots of real estate and different business things going on... .it would be a nightmare to loose this account.  Her name went on it before BPD showed up. 

Literally... .when I say this is the last financial tie... .joint account... .I think it is.

Kinda sad... somber... .to see it go.  Should have done this long time ago. 

FF

[babyducks]

Hi FF,

The negative feelings about my wife ( or perhaps apathy is better description) have grown.

That makes sense to me.   Including the idea that feelings aren't black and white.   You have been in a nearly constant crisis, or conflict for a long time.   There has to be fall out from that.    It has to take a toll.   For me, all the energy and time I spent managing my relationship, meant energy and time that couldn't be spent in other places.

Sweetheart     made several points I really liked, and one of them was about intrinsic positive regard.   I am not sure how anyone could manufacture intrinsic positive regard,... .I think it's either there or it's not.     And I really don't understand how we can develop positive regard at the expense of our own serenity, security, safety.     

I also really liked what flourdust    said about it being challenging to look deeply at our own feelings, negative or otherwise.

I agree it's important to look deeply at our feelings, to dig down beyond the superficial.  And that it's not easy to do.

The big pictures is my wife and I have a majorly dysfunctional relationship that gives me little satisfaction.

 The reality is that it is likely that "we" are pretty close to the "top" of improvement without some sort of active participation from my wife.

Some where on this website is a piece about how we can decide to learn and display better coping tools, more healthy choices and better relationship skills.  And that our partners/SO may choose to follow that example.   Or they may not.   

For me, once I really got the fact that No I was never going to have that trusted give and take between equal partners,  I had to really work for how much would be enough for me,... .what could I settle for,... .and what could I accept without ultimately damaging myself.    I still look back and second guess some of those decisions.

But I also had to wonder what was there in me that framed my thinking in such a way that I could and would accept such a damaged relationship.    To be sure it was complicated.  To be sure there are multiple answers to that question.    And Yes sometimes crap just happened.  In hindsight, I wish I had more compassion for myself.

'ducks

[formflier]

  I could and would accept such a damaged relationship.    

I think exploring what "accept" means could be valuable.  I'm certainly not "resigned" to this.  I obviously have a desire to "look under every rock" for potential solutions... or to "leave no rock unturned".

Yet... .I also realize what I won't "accept" and I believe I've been putting up boundaries and a personal determination to go "this way" (towards health)... .vice "backsliding".

Hmm... as I consider the path forward I wonder if there will be much of a relationship left after the last boundary is up.  Sort of what I was sad about with the "last" financial tie being severed.  (I'll give the he said she said later... .quickly... .she said "Keep your d@mn money... .all of it... I have a job and don't need it"  (of course there was more... but you get the gist).

I really identify with not being able to "focus" on other things.  My focus has been on doing the best i can for my family. 

I think I may start rambling... .so I'm going to try to focus my thinking and posts throughout the morning.

I actually have some immediate next steps from an estate planning point of view. (has to do with Dad's stuff)

FF

[formflier]

Anyone have experience with "testamentary" trusts created through a will.

I will post over on legal as well.  My goal would be to receive assets into a trust, that is protected from a divorce or civil action. 

it's unlikely my wife would ever agree to a post nuptial (she has said as much and in various dysregulations threatened to "take it all".

There is a considerable amount of farm and real estate that, unfortunately, will likely soon pass from my Dad to me.

We have wonderful estate planning documents to make this process easier, but if you asked the question (Do these documents protect these assets from a divorce action?) It appears the answer is no.

I think I have one more consultation, hopefully this week, to sort all of this out and move forward.

The current estate planning documents were prepared before BPD showed up. 

FF

[flourdust]

It sounds like you've got a lot of unpleasant busywork to get done to manage this financial crisis. You're right to focus on that now.

When you get through this, I'd encourage you to come back to the conversation about your overall relationship with your wife and what plans for the long term you might make.

It makes perfect sense that your feelings are going to be less painful when she's not in your face yelling at you. I think of it in medical terms - acute distress and chronic distress. Once the acute episode is over, you return to the chronic baseline -- but that baseline has become more painful and difficult to manage over time.

How you choose to treat the chronic distress is really a question about the fate of your marriage - divorce now, divorce after the kids are grown, live separately but in the same house, have an affair, drink heavily - not all of these are good options, but you're going to feel a need to make a choice.

[GaGrl]

One consideration with the estate planning is if, and/or how much you will tell your wife. It is your father's estate so, frankly, none of her business. But it does affect her perceptions of her future, so... .hmmmm... .what to do.

I see no good coming from telling her how the estate will be managed.

[Cole]

FF,

Sorry to hear about your dad.

We always talk about boundaries on this website. It seems to me that you set a boundary about reckless spending, only to have it violated. Whether it was out of spite or just lack of impulse control, she violated it.

You then enforced the boundary.

If we don't enforce the boundaries, what good are they?

[formflier]

  but that baseline has become more painful and difficult to manage over time.

Not to argue... .I would say less painful and easier to manage over time.  At least my perception of it.  A legit question would seem to be if that is because I have built up tolerance, have better self care skills... .etc etc.  Likely a bit of all of it.

  drink heavily - not all of these are good options, but you're going to feel a need to make a choice.

It's funny the things that you chuckle at... .(FF is being profound... and obvious).  As a young Naval Aviator there were many nights, just after pulling into port to "blow off steam" that "drink heavily" was the plan.  Good memories... .it seemed a good option then.  At the moment it is unlikely to be helpful.

FF

[formflier]

I see no good coming from telling her how the estate will be managed.

Yeah... .no chance I will explain that to her.

Not sure if she remembers... .but current estate paperwork basically says that if everyone dies... except her and our children, all of my parents estate will be held in trust "for the benefit of" the grandchildren, with my wife as the trustee.

Make's sense, when everyone trusts each other.  Momma bear will usually be the best to look out for the kid's futures.  At the time the documents were prepared... .BPD hadn't shown up.  Now I know better.

Yeah... that's going to get changed... .

FF

[formflier]

  but you're going to feel a need to make a choice.

Yes... .and I would hope you guys will help hold me accountable.

I'm going to rephrase this a bit. 

I feel the need to do something different.  Generally speaking I think the way I approach my r/s has been changed by me... .deliberately... .at several points in time.  Basically as I figured out this BPD stuff.

I've not done it... but I would hope that any honest reading of this past summers posts, the summer before and the summer before would strike you as different.  I would hope most would say "healthier".

I also want to continue to be deliberate about "all options on the table".

FF