She's Planning to Move-out, What do I do?

[Cole]

dBPDw has been back on the "leaving" bandwagon. All due to her relationship with my family, who she claims all hate her (they don't). She says she is tired of being alone, even though she is the one who has run off not only my family, but her own.

Last week she rented an apartment she cannot afford. Saturday night she announced she would rather die than move out and was very clingy and affectionate. Sunday while I was at a Church function with the kids, she moved out a bunch of furniture. Really mad about this, as she did not tell me. I found out from a phone call from the neighbor.

When I got home she said she is not ready to move out herself and wanted to stay a few more days. Was very affectionate the whole time, claiming she loves me more than life itself. Yet, still plans to move out. Had a few episodes of extreme anger pointed at my family in between, but returned to loving and clingy quickly.

I have told her I will not stop her from moving if that is what she needs to do. Offering support and validation. Not sure what the heck else to do from here, no idea if she is moving out, moving furniture back in, or leaving then begging to come back (which happened twice in 2015). It changes from minute to minute with her.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[isilme]

Even if she is the reason she is alone, she can still feel lonely, and be at a loss of how to deal with it.  She can't face how her own actions have caused her feelings.  She has chosen your family as the group to blame at this time.

I think a lot of people, with or without BPD, think that a new start, a new location will magically make them happy, get rid of all drama and worries.  And for many, it's a good short term fix and for a very select few, it can be a push to make big changes.  In reality, everyone's problems mostly come from within ourselves... .so wherever you go, there you are.  Your problems came along for the ride if you did not take steps to learn them, except them and your responsibility for them, and then make plans to change.  BPD as a condition is kinda set against most of these steps. 

She probably sees moving out as a solution to her feelings.  I don't think you can make her see anything different.  I find with my H that he needs to do what he needs to do, and we need to just find a way to make things work for both of us.  I think sometimes he wants a high conflict situation so he can vent his feelings, but I don't like to give in to that - I try to not argue.  I think at this time you are doing the best you can to mitigate conflict and keep things as calm for yourself and the kids as possible. 

Once she sees that you are not going to jump off a ledge to stop her leaving, she may waffle back to staying - she may "leave" for a few days/nights, and then come back.  Find things you and the kids to do to live as normal as possible.  That's really all you can do - you can't manage your W's emotions for her.  You can just protect yourself and the children from any harm her actions can bring. 

[Cole]

In reality, everyone's problems mostly come from within ourselves... .so wherever you go, there you are. 

I have said the same thing to her in the past, and she has said it a few times in the past few days. I think she understands the problem will go where she goes, but is so desperate to find a break from the pain she is willing to try.

Once she sees that you are not going to jump off a ledge to stop her leaving, she may waffle back to staying - she may "leave" for a few days/nights, and then come back.  Find things you and the kids to do to live as normal as possible.  That's really all you can do - you can't manage your W's emotions for her.  You can just protect yourself and the children from any harm her actions can bring. 

That is the difficult part. This is the 3rd time she has done this. It is taking a toll on S14, who has Asperger Syndrome, and D12. They really struggle with mom's behavior. And the economic impact to our family does not help.   

[teapay]

Do you realize you are enabling this type of behavior from her and you share a good deal of responsibility on the disruption it causes to your family?   Why are you enabling it? 

[Tattered Heart]

This might be a great time to have a conversation with her about making a decision, either one way or the other, so that you are not living in limbo. Sympathize with her. Show that you care and are open, then ask her what she is doing and let her know that you would like her to make a decision because it's not fair to you to have her going back and forth between staying or going.

Do you think this is a conversation you could have?

[isilme]

I was going to ask mostly HOW she is paying for the apartment.  :)oes she have her own income, or are you the only one bringing in money?  If she has her own money and is just doing it herself, that's not really enabling, and with BPD I find it's a tightrope between being validating at times, and enabling.  He's tried to talk her and explain this is not the answer.  But we can't control them, nor should we try.  We can just decide how much we allow them to disrupt us, and try to not take part in the wild ideas and mood swings.  

Often, short of ending the relationship 100%, there will be some actions that can seem to enable, but we all weigh what we feel is okay and what is too much.  And it takes time to make those determinations. I took over paying all "important" bills to ensure they got done.  I let H take care of his student loan, which yeah, it can hurt us if he fails to adult, but not as much as if he forgot the electric bill.  I used to goad and pester H to go to class when we were much younger.  I was essentially acting as his mom, which I hated and he hated.  I had to let go, accept he needed to learn from actually making the mistakes, but that I could not self-sabotage enough to let these mistakes make us homeless or destitute.  So, I pick and choose which ventures I need to step back and let him do, and which I need to strongly object, and he may choose to do them anyway.  I let him "fail" at times because his own experience speaks more to him than my attempts to help him.  

Children make this even more complicated, and harder on the more responsible, more emotionally grounded adult as they often find they are dealing with another adult who has child-like coping skills, along with any actual children who may be in the house.

Coles wife is choosing to move out.  She is moving things at times he is not even home to talk to her about it, or prevent it.  Short of calling the police and escalating the situation, unless he is paying for the apartment out of his own pocket, how would you suggest stopping her in a way that will not involve an escalation or require calling the police?  As a man, Cole is the one most likely to be damaged should the police be called.  It's sad but true in our society.  Now, he SHOULD consider talking to an attorney just as a consultation to secure custody should the wife decide she wants to make the change permanent, and maybe see if the children need some additional support while their mom is unable to "mom" for them due to her dysregulated emotions.

Also, one last thing.  As a kid who grew up an only child, isolated from family by severals states, disallowed outside friends, with two BPD parents, in a household that was either high conflict and physically abusive, or where I was neglected to the point of learning to feed myself by age 5 and cook by 7, I can state that while it's not ideal, if the high conflict parent is not in the house, it can actually benefit the kids.  A parent leaving is not the end of the world for kids, if that parent is less than stable or the source of a lot of drama.  I recommend looking into the boards, maybe, for those who are coping with parents with BPD, to see what helped them.  I know even though my dad was a nightmare himself, once we no longer had mom under the same roof, my life was improved.  Not great, but improved.  

[Cole]

The part that drives me crazy is she said she would rather die than move out, but still plans to do so. Almost wonder if this is a form of self punishment.

She has not been to her apartment since she had the furniture moved, and is still sleeping right beside me at night. I offered to help her move the rest of her things over, but she said she would rather stay here. Gotta love BPD thought processes!

She is too depressed to go to work and asked me to take her to breakfast and run errands with her this morning, which I did. Then she thanked me for wanting to spend time with her.

No, I am not paying for the apartment. She has her own income, but it is about half of what she actually needs to be able to move out on her own. When I ask her how she is going to make up the deficit, she really has no idea. Makes me wonder if this is even real to her.

I spoke to my attorney and have things set to protect myself should she continue down this road. Not worried about the police showing up. I used to teach domestic response at the academy and know the law better that our local cops do.

Just have to play the waiting game at this point. Either she will move or she will not. Either she will stay gone or beg to come back. Last time, she packed up and moved out of state "forever". Forever was about two weeks. Time before it was about 24 hours.

Man, this gets old... .



 

[teapay]

This cycle of behavior by your wife is bad for her, as it is just another form of escapism, and is bad for you, your kids and your family’s circumstances.  You seem to realize it is damaging at least to some extent.  Whatever your reasons for tolerating it, however nuanced, that toleration does enable it to happen and continue to 4th, 5th, nth… cycles.  That toleration also makes you responsible for it, because you don’t have to tolerate it (boundary) and there are likely many things you can do to break the chain and bring stability to at least your and your kids lives.  Your wife has her responsibilities, which she may be failing in, but you have your responsibilities too.  You don’t have to be a helpless, hapless spectator, continually wringing your hands about it.  Hope you can find the resources to change this dynamic that your family has fallen in, even gradually, and unstick it.  That is likely on you, though---your wife is not able to do it on her own.

[sweetheart]

Hi Cole,

My h behaves in a very similar way to your wife. My h is nowhere near as functional as your w (I know it's relative   ) so when he leaves he goes and lives in the woods, or sleeps on the streets. He then starts to distort his perception of what has occurred and blames me for making him homeless.

I used to be out of mind with worry when he first started doing this, but as the years went on (and our situation and his mental health deteriorated ) I have come to understand that this behaviour happens when he starts to feel overwhelmed and trapped, but inside himself. So it is an external manifestation of taking flight from emotions he just can't manage.

I now request welfare checks from the local police (who know him well) they just check he is ok. He becomes much more verbally loving and intimate during the times he 'goes on a mission' keeping in regular contact by phone. It is just one of the peculiarities of this illness that I learnt to accept over time.

The absences increased as his mental state deteriorated.

Our son now 9 1/2 has a new diagnosis of ASC1 (which used to be called Aspergers here in the UK). I spend all my time protecting and running interference against the disruption that his father's illness has the potential to cause. He understands his father is mentally ill, and I do not tell him that his father is sleeping rough, just that he is staying with friends or being looked after by his care team (which is often true, as he checks in daily with his community team when he sleeps rough)
Minimising the emotional impact on our son has always been my no.1 priority, and emotionally disengaging myself has been vital in surviving the chaos and disruption behaviours like this have the potential to cause us.

My h is currently detained in hospital has been for a long time (which is a positive thing), I remember though just feeling so tired sometimes from the contrariness of it all.  

[Cole]

Sweetheart,

My sympathy for what you have been through. It sounds like you have had a lot to deal with.

My son is also dx with Asperger. His doctor is concerned that there is a touch of BPD mixed in with it. Something to watch.

And yes, it is all about escaping from themselves.

[Cole]

More facilitating developments from the creative mind of BPD... .

First, this afternoon she announced she has to go to the welfare office and then start looking for a second job, maybe as a waitress in a strip club where she can make a lot of money. I told her she needs to do what she thinks is in her best interest and she quickly changed the subject.

Later, she started packing up dishes in a manner to ensure I would hear it from my office. I came in and asked if she needed help. Suddenly, she lost interest. I then told her I would leave for the weekend so she could pack and move in peace. She said she did not want that.

These were either attempts to lure me into the drama triangle or BPD self punishment. I will have to wait to see which card she lays down next.

At least life with a BPD spouse is never boring.

[Cole]

That toleration also makes you responsible for it, because you don’t have to tolerate it (boundary) and there are likely many things you can do to break the chain and bring stability to at least your and your kids lives.  

valid point, teapay. The question is, what to do to break this chain. I have explained that after she moves out, I am filing for divorce. This is the last time she is putting us through this.

Her response so far has been waffling and indecision.

I told her if she did not want to leave, she could move things back, but we would have to find another MC (we finally found a good one and he retired in March) and she would have to talk to her T about stepping up to weekly appointments. She said she is still moving out even though she does not want to. However, she is still here.

I suggested I would help her pack and move or leave so she can do so without me and the kids here. She will not do that either.

She wants to hold me responsible for not "protecting" her from my family. The truth is she needs protecting from her own over the top emotions, which I cannot do.

[sweetheart]

I've been thinking about you saying to her if she moves out this time you will file for divorce. What is the difference between how things are for you today than after she were to move out? 
I'm not talking about leaving or ultimatums, but it seems to me that if you place your focus only on her actually leaving then you are kept in this uncomfortable  ongoing push pull dynamic with your family.
I don't know what the answer is, but for me it lies with now for you, not what if, not after.
What would happen if you removed your condition to divorce around her leaving and refocused back with the current behaviour?
You don't want her to move out, but for her to stay she must be in therapy at a frequency you want.
What will happen if she decides to stay but not go back to MC or T?
There are a lot of conditions for her to navigate which when you think about them might reinforce the push pull dynamic.

I'm probably not making any sense, but I would feel v confused if to leave lies divorce, but to stay lies the condition of therapy.

Can you remove the conditions and live with what then emerges or is that too hard for you?

[sweetheart]

Hi

It took me a moment to gather my thoughts as I'm rushing  
You've placed your wife in a double-bind situation (I suspect inadvertently but nonetheless she is in one)

So given that this is 'improving ongoing' what could be changed/altered  for you in order to improve the situation you are in now and remove the double bind?

[Cole]

I've been thinking about you saying to her if she moves out this time you will file for divorce. What is the difference between how things are for you today than after she were to move out? 

I suppose it is because I cannot do this anymore. This will be the 3rd time she has moved out. It is stressful on me, stressful on our finances, and worse, stressful on our children.

So, if she moves out again, then wants to come back, should I let her? She will likely just do it yet again next year or the year after.

But, if she moves out and I file for divorce, the cycle is broken and neither our children or I have to deal with this anymore.

Does that make sense? Am I looking at this wrong?

[Cole]

So given that this is 'improving ongoing' what could be changed/altered  for you in order to improve the situation you are in now and remove the double bind?

I honestly do not know, short of cutting out my entire family and never speaking to them again. If I do that she will just find something/someone else to blame all her issues on and we repeat the process.

[Tattered Heart]

I've been thinking about you saying to her if she moves out this time you will file for divorce. What is the difference between how things are for you today than after she were to move out?  
I'm not talking about leaving or ultimatums, but it seems to me that if you place your focus only on her actually leaving then you are kept in this uncomfortable  ongoing push pull dynamic with your family.

This is spot on sweetheart. By giving her ever open option of leaving or staying, she gets all the control and all the power. She gets the ultimate decision in how this whole scenario plays out, and you will allow that indecisive dynamic to continue if you don't change your own response to it. I think a very difficult conversation needs to take place that will require her to make a decision. But before that happens, you need to determine if you are ok with her possibly choosing to leave. And that's where the boundary happens.

What values, thoughts, feelings, behavior, etc. are your responsibility in this scenario? Which of those responsibilties have you given away to her? How do you take back responsibility for those values, feelings, behaviors? Once you can answer those questions, you'll be able to better see how to respond to her.

[Cole]

This is spot on sweetheart. By giving her ever open option of leaving or staying, she gets all the control and all the power. She gets the ultimate decision in how this whole scenario plays out, and you will allow that indecisive dynamic to continue if you don't change your own response to it. I think a very difficult conversation needs to take place that will require her to make a decision. But before that happens, you need to determine if you are ok with her possibly choosing to leave. And that's where the boundary happens.

What values, thoughts, feelings, behavior, etc. are your responsibility in this scenario? Which of those responsibilties have you given away to her? How do you take back responsibility for those values, feelings, behaviors? Once you can answer those questions, you'll be able to better see how to respond to her.

And that is why I have decided that if she leaves again, I will file for divorce rather than letting her come back again. My boundary is that I cannot live like this anymore. She will continue to run away every time she feels she is not getting what she deserves. And she will continue to blame my mother, her mother, her father, my family, etc... .for her choices.

I am not OK with her leaving. But I believe that her leaving and coming back yet again is an even worse scenario.

First appointment with a counselor our MC recommended I talk to is today. I hope he can help me navigate this.

[teapay]

The question is, what to do to break this chain. I have explained that after she moves out, I am filing for divorce. This is the last time she is putting us through this.

Yes, this would be a more sure answer to breaking this very disruptive cycle.  It would also be an answer for your wife’s waffling and indecision, as well as for your waffling and decision regarding your wife’s waffling and indecision, because you would be making the decisions for you both, instead of defaulting to the illness letting it making the decisions for everyone. 

It could be also be an answer to your wife about her general mental illness and family disruption.  It seems you tolerate your wife’s running away mental illness and don’t require her to be in treatment AND making some sort of real and measureable progress as a condition of staying married and her enjoying all the benefits of being dependent on you.  Has your wife experienced much accountability in her life?  Being held accountable is good for people.  It gives them real dignity and allows them to learn what behaviors are effective and ineffective, and hopefully that understanding will trickle into the modes of thinking and emotional life. Wouldn’t it be nice for your kids to see you hold your wife to that level of accountability, so they know it is okay, acceptable and right to hold others accountable for their behavior and that they can do it in their lives.

I can see how my posts can be interpreted as trivializing very difficult decisions.  They really aren’t.  I’ve been there and I’m there too and I understand many of the difficulties in making such decisions.  I could list them all if you would like.  An important one is, that at the end of the day, you are really alone in figuring this out and in making the tough decisions.  No one can do it for you, and other than maybe your kids, no one is going to be impacted too much by it.

[sweetheart]

I suppose it is because I cannot do this anymore. This will be the 3rd time she has moved out. It is stressful on me, stressful on our finances, and worse, stressful on our children.

But, if she moves out and I file for divorce, the cycle is broken and neither our children or I have to deal with this anymore.

Does that make sense? Am I looking at this wrong?

Yes this makes absolute sense and it wasn't clear to me from your other posts. I was finding it hard to feel where you were in what was happening.
Your wife's behaviour IMO certainly seems to be her chosen way of coping, but I believe the cycle starts with the wanting to leave not just with the act of leaving itself. So have you considered that the only way to change the dynamic is to move the boundary in order to protect yours and your children's emotional well-being?

I realise this is 'improving' but to me you sound conflicted and I wonder if posting in 'conflicted' for a while this might help you reframe your current situation. What do you think?

[isilme]

Cole,

It may need to go one step more resolute - right now she is hovering between an apartment y'all can't afford and staying.  She has one foot in either.  So, to SHOW she is committed to staying, she has to have a get-up and leave/choose to stay and end lease deadline.  Otherwise, this can waffle indefinitely, keeping you both in an unhealthy limbo.  I don't see this as an ultimatum so much as a statement of fact.  Ultimatums usually are intended to have an effect you want, to manipulate someone.  You have reached a point where she stays, great.  She goes, you can deal.  The deadline is just to give you peace.  At this time, the big thing is to stop the indecision, trying to have both the apartment but not leave.

1 - she says she does not "want" to leave, but got an apartment
2 - she says she does not "want" to leave, but moved things into the apartment
3 - she says she does not "want" to leave, but maintains the apartment and is still trying to use it to force you into alienating your family

Her actions do not speak of wanting to stay.  They speak of HER ultimatum of - "tell off your family for me, and stop associating with them, or I will move out."

For her to "prove" she wants to stay, the lease needs to be dissolved, the items moved back home, MC re-started, etc.  Actions are needed on her part, not words.  And you deserve and end date for this, whatever makes the most sense.  Before rent is due again, maybe.  

[Cole]

Her actions do not speak of wanting to stay.  They speak of HER ultimatum of - "tell off your family for me, and stop associating with them, or I will move out."

For her to "prove" she wants to stay, the lease needs to be dissolved, the items moved back home, MC re-started, etc.  Actions are needed on her part, not words.  And you deserve and end date for this, whatever makes the most sense.  Before rent is due again, maybe.  

Agreed on all parts, including associated responses from teapay, sweetheart and tattered heart.  I guess I am looking for the strength to draw the line and say, "No more. Either change or leave.", knowing she cannot change and the inevitable is the end of our little family. 

[sweetheart]

Finding that emotional strength is desperately hard and heart wrenching and that is what I can hear between the lines of your post and obviously I have followed your story along the way.


My choice was easy, clinicians made it for me because my h had psychotic episodes that caused him this time to be sectioned rather than imprisoned. Now he is in hospital and I am no longer his persecutor triggered by intimate proximity, our relationship is fine. He is unlikely to come home to live permanently with us again (such is his level of functioning he will probably live now in nurse supported housing), but we will stay together. He is allowed time at home and will in the future have periods of overnight home leave.

Whatever the word, demand, condition, ultimatum, request, your w's illness currently still controls and disrupts your lives. She will as I understand from her history be unable to change her behaviour Cole without intensive therapy that she must be an active participant of.
It is you that must change your behaviour, your course of action, but of course you already know this and what the likely outcome of this will be. 

[teapay]

If your wife continues on her path and the marriage dissolve, it would be painful and heartbreaking, but with the downsides, there will also be an upside to focus on and a backlog of healthy, postive things to bring into your and your kids life.

[Cole]

Thank you all for your support.

Just got back from first appointment with my therapist. After a few minutes, he fully agreed that W is BPD.

It was disappointing, though expected, to hear that my wife will never change.

However, he did say there are things that I can do to change how we relate. One of the first things he said was that I have to avoid the Karpman triangle.  It was good to know I am doing the right thing by not allowing her to drag me into the role of rescuer and not reinforcing her role as victim or that of persecutor which she has thrust onto others.

One area I need to change my thought on is that she is always trying to get me to tell my family how much they have hurt her and it is my fault for not protecting her feelings. My response has been that I don't see a reason to bring up ancient events that no one else is going to remember. Correct response should be that if she has a problem with someone hurting her feelings, it is her responsibility to talk to them, not mine.

He also bet me she will still be living at home when we have our next appointment. I did not take that bet. He loved that I offered to help her when she started packing dishes yesterday and was not surprised that she walked away from them and they are still sitting right where she left them.

And boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. She will test them, I have to build them really strong.

So, this PhD who specializes in personality disorders is right in tune with you great folks. Just reinforces my trust that bpdfamily is a great resource for us nons.





 

[formflier]

Cole,

Hey brother... .     Hang tough man.

It's been a while since I've been familiar with your story, so I'm going to stay big picture.

The question of enable versus validate is valid.  Gut reaction is you are NOT enabling.  But I would think that through.

I'm very concerned of your offers to help... .either way. 

Also concerned that you respond to dishes clanging and such.

I think she is using this to "hook" you.  I know... .it's reading tea leaves.  I could be wrong. 

My general advice is to think of this as her "informing" you. 

Don't "solve" anything... .no leading questions.  Let her do this... .or not do it.  Remain friendly.

Now... .into dangerous FF (if it was me) territory.  Once she leaves... .I would change locks and make it official.  DO NOT let her know this ahead of time. 

At same time I would be prepared to "open a door" back to the r/s that is through therapy and accountability.   Respect her decision to try... .or not.

Last.  Sit for a minute with all this... .how do you feel?

FF 

[Cole]

Long time FF, good to hear from you.

Last.  Sit for a minute with all this... .how do you feel?
FF  

I feel that I am on the right track with offers to help her move and refusing to beg her to stay. She just does not know what to do when I refuse to argue with her. 

I am also refusing to react or take the bait and play the triangulation game. T agrees that this is just a way to try to force me to go on the attack against all her perceived persecutors.

So, now she is back to unsure if she wants to leave or not. New T pretty much figures she will find a reason not to leave that lets her save face or will be back in a very short time.

Follow up appointments scheduled to help me to decide if I want to let her come back if she leaves.

She just came home and agreed that I am not responsible for her emotions, them blamed me for not protecting her emotions. Ah, the BPD mind... .

[formflier]

 
Why offer to help?

This is her decision... .she can sort it out without you... right?

FF

[Cole]

It is pretty clear she does not want to move out and this is all about trying to manipulate me into the rescuer position. So, when she started loudly packing to get my attention, the offer to help her pack was a way to subtly let her know I am not taking the bait. Again, T thought it was a great move, especially since the stuff she was packing hasn't moved since.

It is interesting to watch over the last 48 hours. Each time she tries to manipulate me I just agree with her. Every time she dysregulates I refuse to react. And every time she accuses me of something I just nod. It is amazing how her behavior is beginning to level out. My new T said she cannot change and that if I don't change, things will stay the same. Maybe new T is really waverider... .

A little while ago, she got all defensive over something and said, "Then you can just take me to my apartment." She does not want to go there. She just wants to make me beg her to stay so she can demand something in return.

I said, "OK."

She dropped it very quickly and started helping D with homework.