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Author Topic: S16 won't have eye contact  (Read 571 times)
livednlearned
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« on: September 18, 2017, 12:06:08 PM »

This post is about my son. He's 16.

When people say hi to S16, he won't look at them and he makes a barely audible grunt that may as well count for nothing.

He does it to my friends, too.

I know he's hurting, and that life has been hard for him. He has genetic sensitivities and a BPD/alcoholic (absent) father.

I can guess at the reasons for why he doesn't acknowledge people. I don't accept that it's just teen age boy stuff.

It's rude, and it hurts people's feelings. People I love feel offended and invalidated and rejected over what is essentially a simple common courtesy.

Other than talk to him about it, which I've done, I don't know what to do about it. Anyone have any suggestions? This is a child who was emotionally and verbally abused by his father. My codependent parenting style probably did not help him develop a strong sense of self-efficacy as a child, either.

A little background:

S16's father (my ex) is uBPD/bipolar and no longer in his life. Even when he was in S16's life, N/BPDx wasn't really in it, and wasn't much of a role model, especially outside the house.

I have full custody of S16 and we live with SO and his D23, while she goes to grad school.

S16 has been in therapy since he was 10, and currently sees a wonderful (male) psychiatrist once a week, is on prozac for depression, and adderall for ADHD. He also has moderate OCD with Tourette-like symptoms that come and go, misophonia (hatred of certain sounds), and sensory defensiveness. His social anxiety is pretty intense.

A lot of things are better, and at the same time, S16 is very stuck. He uses therapy mostly to vent, and from what I can tell, he stays in his head, although I do think there is some reparenting going on in a father-son way with the psychiatrist.

I don't know what I'm asking  

Suggestions for a skilled way to get my son to have eye contact with the world. A baby step... .
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 12:15:48 PM »

has he always done this? is he socially anxious generally?

edit: yes, sorry, you pretty clearly stated he is. first question stands though. has his social anxiety sort of evolved or devolved in ways?
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 01:05:20 PM »

On one hand, he's got a lot of issues.  And yeah, a lot of people would consider the behavior you describe as rude and discourteous.  I suspect he's not purposefully being rude with any kind of malice, though.  He's basically been traumatized and doesn't react normally as a result.  That explains things, but it doesn't give anyone a free pass to allow what's basically poorly adapted social skills to continue.  He's gonna need to grow past this, both for his own healing and growth, and so he can function better in society overall as an adult.

He's 16, there's no point in coddling in him too much now.  The rest of the world won't.  JMHO, but follow SET - sympathy, empathy, truth.  Start with a discussion, both with him and with regular people he's around.  Tell him your concerns directly.  Use the SET pattern to express it, but tell him.  Tell the people he's around regularly too.  Then enlist their help.  When you and others greet him, come up with a non-threatening way to encourage his positive response.  Like "Hey S16, it would make my day for you to say hi back to me" said with a smile.  If he responds, smile more, give positive reinforcement, etc.  Build his sense of comfort with the safe people in his life.  

Then if/when he's responding better, work on expanding it to more people he comes in contact with, and then even strangers (such as waiters/watresses, cashiers at the store, etc.).

This are just my thoughts, it seems like it's something that has to be addressed in real life, not just in a therapist's office, so you need a plan to support him, coach him, and push him to this growth.
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 01:26:41 PM »

Hello livednlearned !

I so much understand your concern. You want your son to be polite to people, especially the ones you care about. You also just want him to function as 'normal' people, and 'normal' people say hello to each other when they meet.

The advise I will give you is probably not what you would expect, because I remember how it was for me as a child, when I didn't say hello to people, nor did I look them in the eye. For my father it was very important that I did, though (he had his own reasons, which I understand now). My parents were very persistent that I'd say hello to people in their presence, and although they were right, I just couldn't. The truth is, I felt stupid, inferior, ugly and I wish they did not see me. If I didn't look at them, they wouldn't notice me. Even if they said hello, I hardly dared to say anything back.

The more my parents insisted I'd greet people and the more they got angry because I didn't, the more I got scared (see ? There *was* something wrong with me ! I didn't even dare to look at people like everyone else) and angry with myself.

I just felt more and more abnormal.  

I think the thing that for me would have helped was building my self esteem, not pointing out stuff that I did wrong.

So ... .my personal advice to you would be ... .stick it out, just accept the behavior. If you feel really bad about it, just tell your friends that yes, he could say hello, but he's very shy and self insecure, and that's it. They will just have to do with that. People sometimes understand a lot more than you'd think.

You could also talk to your son about this, but maybe in a more constructive way than the intuitive way. Maybe you could tell him : look, I wish you'd say hello to my friends. But I think you are feeling bad about yourself since you don't. I think you are a great young guy, no need to feel bad. But I understand it must be so difficult for you to say hello, so I accept that you won't.

In my opinion, that will be a lot more constructive than insisting he does something that really he's maybe not even capable of (I know I wasn't).
Once his self esteem will have grown more, he probably will grow out of this.

(NB I am quite social now, I always greet people and love to talk, and I always look people into there eyes when I do).

xx




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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 01:39:25 PM »

My first thought is that this doesn't necessarily sound outside the norm for a teenage boy, especially one dealing with the challenges and background you described.

When you say that he won't make eye contact or respond verbally to people ... .which people do you mean? (I'm wondering if this is how he interacts with his friends, too, which would suggest a larger problem to me.)
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 04:43:24 PM »

Thanks everyone, I'm on my phone so please forgive me for not quoting you! I don't know how people do this phone thing ...

EDIT:

phone:1
LnL: 0

I deleted a long bunch of response by accident, so I'll wait to repost when I'm back on my computer.
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2017, 03:23:29 PM »

Ok, back on my horse  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Thanks for responding, everyone. Your collective responses pretty much sum up the merry go-round in my head on this issue.

has his social anxiety sort of evolved or devolved in ways?

He definitely seemed more sullen as he hit his teens, which I factor in as semi-normal. I'm probably noticing it more, too. It's been 2.5 years of therapy and 1.5 years living with SO and we are still at the sub-grunt level. Plus he's now 16, and emerging adulthood is right around the corner. So it's mostly that it's not getting better. 

I suspect he's not purposefully being rude with any kind of malice, though.
 

Very true. He does not have a mean bone in his body.

He's basically been traumatized and doesn't react normally as a result.  That explains things, but it doesn't give anyone a free pass to allow what's basically poorly adapted social skills to continue.  He's gonna need to grow past this, both for his own healing and growth, and so he can function better in society overall as an adult.

That pretty much sums it up exactly, Waddams.

follow SET - sympathy, empathy, truth.  Start with a discussion, both with him and with regular people he's around.  Tell him your concerns directly.  Use the SET pattern to express it, but tell him.  Tell the people he's around regularly too.  Then enlist their help.  When you and others greet him, come up with a non-threatening way to encourage his positive response.  Like "Hey S16, it would make my day for you to say hi back to me" said with a smile.  If he responds, smile more, give positive reinforcement, etc.  Build his sense of comfort with the safe people in his life.
 

I've been doing a version of this for a while, back to middle school. He would walk into the school, or into camp, and friends would rush up and say hi, and S16 would brush by them and not acknowledge them. I sometimes thing the more I focus on this stuff, the worse I make it. If you do a bad version of this for too long, does it take away it's superpowers?

If I remember correctly, you have a child with Autism? Curious how you work on these skills with him. S16 is not autistic, tho he was in a social skills class for a year or so with three other kids who were autistic.

You also just want him to function as 'normal' people, and 'normal' people say hello to each other when they meet.

I would settle for a chin bob and some eye contact at this point 

I felt stupid, inferior, ugly and I wish they did not see me. If I didn't look at them, they wouldn't notice me. Even if they said hello, I hardly dared to say anything back.

The more my parents insisted I'd greet people and the more they got angry because I didn't, the more I got scared (see ? There *was* something wrong with me ! I didn't even dare to look at people like everyone else) and angry with myself.

Do you think it would've been different if they were kind about it instead of getting angry? I'll have to check my reaction. Maybe I seem angry -- S16 is definitely sensitive. He might think I'm angry and/or disappointed.

I think the thing that for me would have helped was building my self esteem, not pointing out stuff that I did wrong.

I struggle with how to coach and guide S16 versus pointing out stuff that he does wrong. I validate and parent and try to let him experience consequences directly, and then there is just plain old frustration that nothing seems to take with him. 

So ... .my personal advice to you would be ... .stick it out, just accept the behavior. If you feel really bad about it, just tell your friends that yes, he could say hello, but he's very shy and self insecure, and that's it. They will just have to do with that. People sometimes understand a lot more than you'd think.

Part of the reason this has come up is that my neighbor/teacher/friend pointed it out. She has a BPD/NPD parent combo and has been in decades of therapy, and I saw her do some miracle work with uBPD/bipolar D20 this last summer. My friend wants my permission to tell S16 how it feels when he ignores her. It makes her feel hurt, and she doesn't like to feel that way. She feels like he invalidates her existence and that is a painful feeling.

Her thinking is that S16 might need to be shocked out of this. Her way would be to use "I" statements, to explain the effect of his behavior on her.

I partly trust her, and partly am protective of S16 because he's pretty damaged. At the same time, this is going to hobble him. It has already.

In my opinion, that will be a lot more constructive than insisting he does something that really he's maybe not even capable of (I know I wasn't). Once his self esteem will have grown more, he probably will grow out of this.

The thing is, I don't seem him doing anything that looks remotely like he is trying to improve his self-esteem. It's like he's in a negative feedback loop, believing he has no effect on other people and they have no effect on him.

I waffle on the behaviorist method approach thingy that SO suggests. Which would be something like, "Hey, this thing with the eye contact. It's a skill that can be learned and sitting in your room looking at a screen is not helping. On Thursday nights, I'll take you to D&:) where <mutual friend> goes. He says he's hoping you'll come one of these nights and this will give you a headstart with some of these life skills you'll need, for getting a job and all that."

When you say that he won't make eye contact or respond verbally to people ... .which people do you mean? (I'm wondering if this is how he interacts with his friends, too, which would suggest a larger problem to me.)

I think it's with everyone, including friends. He even has an Internet version of this, where people will try to interact with him and he sort of parallel converses with them.

He's very guarded
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2017, 03:54:58 PM »

Excerpt
Do you think it would've been different if they were kind about it instead of getting angry? I'll have to check my reaction. Maybe I seem angry -- S16 is definitely sensitive. He might think I'm angry and/or disappointed.

yes, this would have helped. And what would have helped most, is that they would have accepted that I just couldn't do it.

I do not know if the idea of your friend approaching him is a good one or not. Maybe you can check with your sons therapist about this first?

Excerpt
It makes her feel hurt, and she doesn't like to feel that way. She feels like he invalidates her existence and that is a painful feeling.

I personally think this is saying more about her, then about your son ... .what do you think ?

I do like the idea of the I-statements. I think that might be a good approach for you too : something in the line of :

'I would like to to make eye contact because I think it's important. I have the feeling that you might miss out on chances in life if you don't. What do you think about all of this ? Do you think I could be right ? Or do you feel different about this ?'

On the other hand I really do think that forcing him into it will only lessen his self esteem, and will only cause him to feel more abnormal.  Making him go to a class will add to that feeling I think. Actually I think your son is very aware that others do make eye contact and say hello. So, wanting him to go to a class where you can learn 'normal' skills might add to his feeling of inferiority. Not something you want. Again, to be sure, maybe you can check with his therapist ?

I do understand though that it concerns you. But wouldn't you say that it's mostly the bigger picture that is concerning to you ? Not this 'relatively small' detail ?

Try to see it as a symptom, not the disease itself. He won't feel better / function better if you make the symptom go away. It might even pop up somewhere else as a different symptom, and make the disease worse.

How about : 'Hey son, I really wish you would make eye contact. I am a social person so I think it's important ! And you know, some people probably feel invalidated if you don't greet them properly. I must say, between you and me, this probably says more about them, than about you ! But well, we live in a society, and there are expectations, even if sometimes we don't agree with those, society sometimes wants us to comply. You should know that I love you no matter what. You making eye contact or not, is not changing any of that. And I know you are not the only one with this thing (avoid the word 'problem'. I have heard about someone else who had this. She said she didn't dare to look at people. She even felt a little bad about herself sometimes. Actually there are a whole lot of people who have trouble doing this. There's even a class about it. So if ever you feel the need to learn this skill, let me know, and we can look together for this class. You would not have to do this alone.'


Excerpt
He even has an Internet version of this, where people will try to interact with him and he sort of parallel converses with them.

I'm not sure if I understand this one. You are not talking about greeting (his friends) here anymore, are you ?

Do you mean that in general he has difficulty connecting with people ? Like on the autistic scale ?
How do you know how he converses online ?
Can you elaborate a bit ?
 

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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2017, 03:36:15 PM »

He definitely seemed more sullen as he hit his teens, which I factor in as semi-normal. I'm probably noticing it more, too. It's been 2.5 years of therapy and 1.5 years living with SO and we are still at the sub-grunt level. Plus he's now 16, and emerging adulthood is right around the corner. So it's mostly that it's not getting better. 

okay. yes id agree its not just teen age boy stuff, but its very common with social anxiety, and i also think its something he may outgrow. i went through a couple year phase of this myself and had no awareness i was doing it, while it mortified my mother and hurt a lot of feelings. i outgrew it completely, but moved to different kinds of problems.

and for some, not looking other people in the eye can be a sort of cognitive thing. i actually listen a lot better when i dont, because focusing on eye contact distracts me. in other words, he may always have some difficulty doing that, but when you combine it with grunting, sure, you get hurt feelings or people that just consider it rude behavior.

i do struggle with solutions, here. scolding or just trying to talk to me about it didnt help - not saying it wouldnt in your case.

i would be very interested in the idea of your friend communicating this to him. its sort of a natural consequence, you know? my granddaddy did similar things with me. would it be any different than his friends communicating it to him? what would the circumstances/scenario be? a one on one thing?

do you have any say in his therapy? is this something you could discuss with his therapist?
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 06:31:25 PM »

Hi LnL  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Maybe I missed it in the thread, but have you had the "I don't know if you're aware of this, but it looks to me like you don't make eye contact" conversation with S16 yet? I.e., what's his awareness level of what he's doing? My SD's are younger (9 & 11) but starting some conversations with "You might not have known this, but... .(behavior issue)" has been helpful in keeping defensiveness down. Just curious if he actually knows the message his actions send.
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2017, 09:19:56 PM »

My son has ASD/Asperger's.  He feels he cannot make eye contact as it feels too invasive or confrontational. (Some animal kingdom sympathetic response is ellicited within him) So he has learned to look at an ear, edge of a lip or such to pretend he is making eye contact.  He is familiar with constant social anxiety.  He has learned that folks find it rude that he could care less about eye contact.  Teachers throughout elementary... .to high school have been offended by his lack of eye contact.  He didn't care.  They thought he was rude.  After hearing from him... .it made sense... .it felt noxious to him to position him self in an adversarial place with folks... .so I kinda felt it weird school officials could not be more flexible.  My son has superb auditory processing skills and making eye contact actually will hinder that ability to absorb via auditory as it causes him a great anxiety reponse.

Anyways... .
Long story short... .
Wish I was content in his teen year that he was ok with "faking" eye contact via visually focusing on a close point such as an ear.  He formally learned the benefit of eye contact because the rest of the world puts such meaning on it.  At home... .I do not expect him to fake such things for the sake of me... .poor kid has enough of a hard time trying to appear normal.

I imagine it must be similar dealing with anxiety issues and such.  Struggle enough to fake stuff to appease others.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2017, 12:47:42 PM »

We had some movement on this, but not in the direction I anticipated.

Things came to a head. S16 and I had an emotional drive home after school one day and I realized the extent to which I impose my experience on his  I've had periods of depression and anxiety in my life, and have that as a point of reference when I talk to him. For S16, though, he doesn't remember feeling anything other than depression.

It's hard to write that. It's hard to imagine how that feels.

Fie, what you said struck a cord. S16 indicated that he feels like everything he does, he's a problem. He has to take medication just to get through the day, all his effort goes into waking up in the morning, nothing brings him pleasure, no one cares about him (he was talking about at school). He didn't come out and say he wants to die, but that was the gist of the conversation    I think he knows if he says something remotely suicidal, it will activate me and I'll create a lot of energy that he doesn't want to deal with. He's right.

I have this metaphor for him. It's like he's in a box with a thick blanket, saying it's too dark and he's hot. I tell him things would get better if he comes out of the box and takes off the blanket. His response is, "Oh, so it's my fault I'm hot and can't see?"

 

I can see how having a BPD parent would shape his thinking this way. I can also see why, with someone this depressed, I have to back up and slow down and not rush things. I really appreciate the different ways you are all saying this, in one way or another.

I've created a validating environment for him, and I see that I still have some work to do in the way I communicate with him. "I see you're having a hard time having eye contact with people who care about you. I can understand why it's something you aren't comfortable with. And I can also see how it would make you feel worse if I say you should have eye contact when that's the last thing you want to do, making you feel bad about the thing that makes you feel bad."

I have sort of been doing the same thing with his Internet life. I kept saying the people he plays games with online aren't friends, which had to have hurt a lot to a kid who doesn't feel he has any friends. So, I'm there wanting him to focus on his real-life friendships (he has them) and end up making him feel like the people who are kind to him (online) aren't in some way real. And here I am on bpdfamily connecting with people who understand things my real life friends don't. 

I was concerned enough after our conversation in the car that I called his psychiatrist and he talked to me for over an hour. He said in his estimation, it's fair to say that S16 is probably going to struggle with depression throughout his life. I don't think I fully took that in before. I keep thinking S16 is going to become neurotypical and clearly that's my stuff to work through. 

One of the things that's also hard for me is that I'm motivated. Even as a kid with a violent sibling, I was motivated to get myself where I needed to get, whether it was out of the house or into therapy. If a therapist said exercise, I did it. I have a more resilient disposition than S16 and I just wanted him to be more like me.

@once removed -- your question about the friend giving S16 direct feedback is one I've been struggling with. This friend is 60, and I'm thinking (especially given what she's been through) it might be about her, which is what Fie suggested. That sounds right to me. And I think all it will do is make S16 feel bad about feeling bad, and make him more avoidant. It was a sign of progress when he started to come downstairs even when he heard voices that he didn't recognize.

It makes me wonder if my friend is offended by him because she can't charm him, or fix him or win him over.

@kells76, there have been lots of conversations about acknowledging people, including eye contact, going back a long ways. I sort of picked it up again because I've been feeling impatient, and a little embarrassed by his behavior.

@Sunfl0wer, while S16 isn't ASD/Asperger's, he does have some of the sensory defensiveness, and the auditory processing thing, too. He used to turn his body sideways in elementary school so he could eliminate distractions and concentrate better (also couldn't see well, which we discovered at age 9). I wish S16 would find a way to fake eye contact   but for the time being, I don't think he cares even about doing that. Psychiatrist referred to anhedonia, inability to feel pleasure, as the source of a lot of these issues.

Going forward, we decided to split the counseling sessions into half family counseling, half individual. As I introduce consequences for S16 not doing things, the changes destabilize S16, and then things become very emotional very quickly, and I get worried about suicide, which gets me emotionally activated   

So here's hoping the new plan helps us move forward, tiny step at a time.

Thanks for listening and providing feedback  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2017, 01:58:12 PM »

On consequences... .
Not saying I know what is right for you, however, for whatever reason, my son literally could not feel motivated by having consequences.  I realize we are all different, however, I still wonder if what worked for my son could have some relevance... .so will share just in case.

My son really could not seperate the consequence from being told "he was bad."  I never told him he was "bad." I always addressed the "behavior" not "the person," yet it appears that is how he digested negative feedback.  He over personalized it.

On the same token, he also over personalized positive feedback and really loved being useful to folks, feeling like he had value to add.  I recall the time in about second or third grade, I found a tone of little trinket toys and candies stashed away in his backpack.  What it was was, every time he was doing something good in class and a teacher gave him a reward, instead of like the other kids, eating the candy or playing with the toy, my kid was hoarding them.  This was kinda eye opening to me in how he saw praise and punishments.  He was collecting those toys, never using them, cause they were like ongoing proof of him for him being valuable... .he wanted to save it... .seeing his hoard grow brought him pride.

For my son, punishments just made him feel awful about himself.  Never were they motivating.  (I have cared for other kids as a nanny, or aunt, and never had these issues even with kids who lived with me several months)

Anyway... .
Long story short... .
I had to figure out what motivated him.
Instead of "punishments"... .I had him "earn stuff."
So I ended up having a checklist of sorts of stuff I wanted done before he turned TV on or such.

Just adding this because it could be a more positive spin for a kiddo who is not used to the changes... .it could help him feel useful vs like he is failing maybe.
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2017, 02:32:28 PM »

That's a good point.

By consequences, I mean that if he has a hard time being downstairs ready for school at 8:10am, then I turn off his gaming computer that night.

Is that how you define consequences? I know people have different ways of defining them.

If he can get down by 8:10am, then he can earn back his regular shut-off time at 10pm.

Some of the consequences are ones we come up together, but this particular one is mine.

I've tried to adapt the idea of boundaries (things I have control over) to parenting. Most of the parenting is stuff I try to front load with him as a discussion, and get his ideas for fair consequences if he isn't able to do what he agrees to do.

Homework, household chores, I give him a chance to say when he's going to do them. Then he will recommend the consequence if the task is not done by whatever time. Usually, it's some version of shutting off access to his computer (I can do this from my phone).
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2017, 02:44:15 PM »

Excerpt
For S16, though, he doesn't remember feeling anything other than depression. It's hard to write that. It's hard to imagine how that feels.

I know how it feels. It feels bad.  

But :
Excerpt
He said in his estimation, it's fair to say that S16 is probably going to struggle with depression throughout his life.

I think that's a very quick and too easy assumption to make. I for one am not depressed anymore. I know it's something I will probably have to watch out for, for the rest of my life (maybe that's even what the psy meant ?). But I recognize the signs now.
So no, I would not accept that diagnosis for your son. He's only 16. Plenty of good things are still going to happen for him. You also are learning and will be able to guide him even better.
Another possibility is that the psy wanted you to relax more by telling you to accept whatever comes on your son's way, even if it means depression his whole life ? Sometimes I notice that when I really really want to help my daughter, I sometimes make things worse in stead of better. Sometimes taking a step back is helping her more... .(unfortunately I most of the time only see this afterwards :-P)


Excerpt
So, I'm there wanting him to focus on his real-life friendships (he has them) and end up making him feel like the people who are kind to him (online) aren't in some way real. And here I am on bpdfamily connecting with people who understand things my real life friends don't.  tongue

Have you told him that you feel you made a mistake there ?


Excerpt
It's like he's in a box with a thick blanket, saying it's too dark and he's hot. I tell him things would get better if he comes out of the box and takes off the blanket. His response is, "Oh, so it's my fault I'm hot and can't see?"

He doesn't seem able to get out of the box. I think it can be frustrating if people show him that they want him out of the box., so he'd feel better. I think he very well knows he'd feel better if he got out of the box. But how ? He can't ! It's like telling someone without legs to start walking.
If he cannot get out of the box... .Maybe you can get in the box with him under the blanket once in a while ?

Do you sometimes show him you enjoy his company ? I don't mean communicating with him. Just his company. Do you sometimes hold him, sitting together on the couch (does he let you hold him?) ? Or watch a movie together, just you and him ? Or when he's online, would he allow you sitting in his room with a book or so, just because you want his company - with your face away from his screen of course (without talking or controlling him, not doing anything) ?
Would you consider asking him to play a video game with you ? Like : 'hey son, I know it probably sounds strange, but I don't know anything about video games. I'm not really a huge fan either, but on the other hand, I would like to experience how it is to play one. Would you show me one, an easy one for your old mum, and help me with it ? You will probably have to be patient with me'.


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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2017, 02:57:11 PM »


Hi LNL,

Sorry to hear all of this but thanks for sharing.   Never a problem to big or small here.   When we signed on for parenting, (step or bio)  it's a good thing they (kids) DIDN'T come with an operating manual ahead of time (I often say they should) with an alphabetical index detailing every conceivable thing we'd encounter, complete with instructions for their solution.  "Warnings" in fine print at the end:  "May cause... .".   Can you imagine?  Nobody in their right mind would take it on!    Smiling (click to insert in post)       I commend you for how much help and support you offer your son.  And your wisdom you share with the rest of us.  I wish we had all the answers (but then we'd be bored).

Your son has had quite a challenging journey so far and is still so very young still with a long road ahead. 

S16 has been in therapy since he was 10, and currently sees a wonderful (male) psychiatrist once a week, is on prozac for depression, and adderall for ADHD. He also has moderate OCD with Tourette-like symptoms that come and go, misophonia (hatred of certain sounds), and sensory defensiveness. His social anxiety is pretty intense.

A lot of things are better, and at the same time, S16 is very stuck. He uses therapy mostly to vent, and from what I can tell, he stays in his head, although I do think there is some reparenting going on in a father-son way with the psychiatrist.


I picked up on his relationship with his Dr as well as the medication he's on.    I didn't read (maybe missed it) if you had consulted him or not about all of this and what his input is?     
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2017, 03:30:13 PM »

Excerpt
By consequences, I mean that if he has a hard time being downstairs ready for school at 8:10am, then I turn off his gaming computer that night.
Yes, I see consequences the same way... .

Mostly what I am saying, is it is a matter of semantics.
Ex... .
Hey buddy, seems your having a hard time getting ready in the am on time.  I'm worried the evning gaming could be contributing to the lag in am. It's up to you to prove to me otherwise. From now on, so long as you are ready in am, that evening you can game.  However, if not, then you have not earned the privelege of gaming for that evening.

I don't expect this to be an ongoing issue, however, it it continues, then we will have to consider other options for gaming times that allow you to get relaxed enough in the evening.  (Maybe he literally IS disrupted by pm gaming so actually does need less gaming time... .I wouldn't want to set him up for an unrealistic goal either... if it is one, idk... .maybe you two find he can game in the pm and still get ready in am, but maybe for 45 mins instead of three hrs... .hypothetically speaking.)

Idk... .I like "to frame" discipline as a "natural consequence" whenever possible.

For example... .
My son wanted am gaming time.
He got whatever was left over after getting ready/tasks expected of him.  So if he took all his am time getting ready, dragging out the morning, then he naturally had no time for gaming.  It helped him take more ownership of the results vs me seeming like I was "against" him.  Then as I "encouraged" him he could see it was because we had the same goal... .for him to be ready fast and have more time for fun.  The other way, when looking to dish out consequences... ."my support" ended up seeming like "nagging."

Maybe more simply put... .
Ya get out of house on time = you earn evening gaming... . imo, sounds way more positive and motivating than
Ya get out of house late = no gaming in eve

I just wonder if your kid would respond better to the semantics of it sounding more positive.  As though you want to quit the gaming, but are giving him power to earn it.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2017, 03:39:20 PM »

Sometimes taking a step back is helping her more... .

I have taken that approach with S16, maybe to a fault. He is very intelligent and has a pretty profound meta awareness of his own cognition. So sometimes it's easy to forget he's 16   and because he's pretty quiet, it's also easy to forget that he's deeply depressed.

Excerpt
Have you told him that you feel you made a mistake there ?

I did. I went to his room and I apologized. And also to tell him I'm sorry for thinking his experience would be like mine, that we're different and I wish I didn't project onto him like I did.

Excerpt
If he cannot get out of the box... .Maybe you can get in the box with him under the blanket once in a while ?

 Smiling (click to insert in post)  

In all seriousness, that's validation, yes?

Which I'm doing 95 percent of the time. It's the T in SET (support, empathy, truth) that I'm not so good at with him. I can be too quick with the truth and not slow down enough with the support and empathy.

Excerpt
Do you sometimes show him you enjoy his company ? I don't mean communicating with him. Just his company. Do you sometimes hold him, sitting together on the couch (does he let you hold him?) ?

Most physical he will let me get is a fist bump. When I went away for 16 days this summer (longest time we were apart from each other), he allowed me to hug him. But I get around this in the morning when I wait him up. I'll put the cat on him, which he loves, or I'll give him a head massage, something he loved when he was a kid. Or I'll take the fuzzy toy thingy and wake him up with it, something I also did when he was a kid.

Video games -- I was the one who introduced him (Lego Star Wars  Being cool (click to insert in post)) and we played until he got so much better he didn't really enjoy playing with me. I also get motion sick playing video games, so I'm kind of a weenie. I am trying to learn some of the interesting Euro board games so we can lure him down with an activity he could tolerate briefly... .

We do have lovely conversations while driving in the car, talking about politics and things he learns at school. He comes down when no one else is home and we chat while prepping a meal, and bond over our animals (cat, dog).

Mainly, tho, he wants to be in his room, alone. The social stuff is work for him.
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2017, 03:49:19 PM »

I picked up on his relationship with his Dr as well as the medication he's on.    I didn't read (maybe missed it) if you had consulted him or not about all of this and what his input is?    

I have had short consultations with him (not about the eye contact), but the recent one we had two nights ago is the longest. From time to time, I have gone in to meet with him on my own.

He says, S16 is not a typical guy. That he is extremely smart, and has reinvigorated the psychiatrists passion for his profession. Also says he knows when S16 comes for his session, that the psychiatrist has to be on his toes and fully alert.

It's hard to describe S16. He's the kind of guy that makes you aware of things you never noticed, but are right there in front of you, all the time. I could imagine him doing observational comedy, there are a lot of things he has in common with people who do that profession. He would never in a million years do that, tho, and hasn't got the resilience for the constant rejection.

Psychiatrist says he has to work hard to not allow S16 to make him laugh too much.

He talked about doing this joint counseling session trial period. Plus talk more about medication (he is wondering if the adderall is exacerbating the depression).

S16 tells the psychiatrist that he knows he has to work on these adult or life skills. He refers to oncoming adulthood as a balloon payment  Smiling (click to insert in post)

EDIT: Psychiatrist also observes S16 and I interact in the waiting room, sometimes we hang out for 15-20 min, the three of us by ourselves (end of day appointment). He said he commended me for my empathy with S16, that I swallow a lot when interacting with S16, and allow him a lot of room to express himself in a safe space. Where I struggle is not with the support and empathy, it's with the truth (SET). Sometimes, it has to be seT. We have been SEt for a long time.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2017, 03:52:14 PM »

I just wonder if your kid would respond better to the semantics of it sounding more positive.  As though you want to quit the gaming, but are giving him power to earn it.

yes, he would feel better if I communicated in better language. He has said so.

I struggle to do this consistently.
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