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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Wife's rage has been triggered  (Read 765 times)
startrekuser
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« on: September 18, 2017, 05:30:35 PM »

My wife is a U BPD.  I haven't been on this board in a long time.  I learned valuable skills here and that helped me to cope and the keep the peace with my wife.  We live in Florida and had to stay at my dad's house (he's not there) for a few days.  Before that we had evacuated to Atlanta, which involved a lot of driving.  The whole experience was emotionally draining.  She was triggered while we still were in Atlanta.  We had problems in marriage b/c I complained to my parents about my wife.  I sided with them against her.  Anyway, to make a long story short, she looked through all my dad's papers and found copies of old emails I sent him complaining about her.  She found other stuff that sent her into a total rage.  She's sending emails to me like those below. 

I still question whether she is BPD or maybe just royally pissed off about my inappropriate behavior.  I don't complain to anybody about her anymore and I don't get angry when she rips into me.  I always defend her.  I've kept the peace pretty well mainly b/c of what I learned on this website. 

Does this sound like typical BPD behavior?

"I would rather kill myself than kiss you or let you hold me.

I cringe when you touch me.  My flesh crawls and I feel like vomiting.

So there's no point for you to not see/speak freely your brother.

Just please don't do it behind my back.  Show some decency."

and this:

"The real reason you don't want to ever look at your wedding photos or wedding video is because you are sickened like me at any photos of us together.  Us pretending to be anything but roommates is fake and phony and nauseating.

Isn't that the real truth?"
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2017, 02:41:55 AM »

Welcome back, startrekuser!  I hope your loved ones and property are recovering well from the storm.  I've recently seen a couple of other people come back after a long break.  Often they'll make comments about their skills getting rusty while they were away.

I don't feel expert enough to tell you "yes, that's typical BPD behavior," but I can say that the comments you describe are entirely consistent with what I sometimes hear from my uBPDw. 

What were the most valuable skills you learned when you were here before?

Wentworth
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startrekuser
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2017, 08:27:39 AM »

S.E.T.  Also, don't get angry.   
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 08:38:50 AM »

Welcome back startrekuser,

Sorry that things have been difficult for you. Although your wife has never been diagnosed, that doesn't mean she doesn't have it. And if she does have it, it's something that is always there although it can go into remission at times. And if she doesn't have it, the skills you learn here can still help in any relationship, not just one with someone with BPD.

How have you responded to your wife when she says these things to you?

It sounds to me like she is experiencing an intense fear of rejection after seeing these old emails. She may need some validation about her fears and then just a little reassurance (don't go excessively overboard on it) just to remind her that those things were in the past and that you still love her and aren't leaving her.

Here's our link to the workshop on validation skills. If you're feeling rusty a refresher review of this might help.
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Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life Proverbs 13:12

DaddyBear77
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2017, 05:12:59 PM »

Hi StarTrekUser - welcome back 

First, I'd like to reiterate what others have said - it's really hard to definitively diagnose BPD. We've never taken a poll (to my knowledge) but I'd say that the majority of people here have an undiagnosed partner or loved one. What brings us together is the common traits we experience.

In that regard, you are fully in the right place.

My own uBPDw has said some of those exact things to me. And, what's more, she's said those things in response to finding out I still talk to my parents behind her back. So I have some experience with where you are.

I have a few questions... .

We had problems in marriage b/c I complained to my parents about my wife.  I sided with them against her.

What was the disagreement about? Did you side with your parents at first, but then later, decided for yourself that you came down on the wrong side of the issue? OR did you (do you) still believe that by standing with your parents, you were on the RIGHT side of the issue, but later, your wife convinced you that you absolutely HAD to come down on her side simply because she's your wife?

  Anyway, to make a long story short, she looked through all my dad's papers and found copies of old emails I sent him complaining about her.

How did this play out? Was she looking through your parents papers with or without your parents permission?

I always defend her.  I've kept the peace pretty well mainly b/c of what I learned on this website. 

Do you defend everything, even if it's not something you don't personally agree with?

Does this sound like typical BPD behavior?

... .(you pasted some stuff here - ouch)... .

Um, I can't say whether or not it's typical behavior, but wow, it's horrible stuff to hear ANYONE you love say to you. That's really painful stuff for me to even read. Probably because I've heard it and I know how it feels. It's not stuff you need to tolerate. Do you tolerate that kind of stuff often?

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startrekuser
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 05:02:56 PM »

Hi StarTrekUser - welcome back  

First, I'd like to reiterate what others have said - it's really hard to definitively diagnose BPD. We've never taken a poll (to my knowledge) but I'd say that the majority of people here have an undiagnosed partner or loved one. What brings us together is the common traits we experience.

In that regard, you are fully in the right place.

My own uBPDw has said some of those exact things to me. And, what's more, she's said those things in response to finding out I still talk to my parents behind her back. So I have some experience with where you are.

I have a few questions... .

What was the disagreement about? Did you side with your parents at first, but then later, decided for yourself that you came down on the wrong side of the issue? OR did you (do you) still believe that by standing with your parents, you were on the RIGHT side of the issue, but later, your wife convinced you that you absolutely HAD to come down on her side simply because she's your wife?

I still think that she is wrong and my parents are right about most things. I should NOT have sided with my parents against her, though.  I should have come down on her side b/c she's my wife. Also, my parents shouldn't have gotten involved.  I have changed though and I do everything right now.

How did this play out? Was she looking through your parents papers with or without your parents permission?

We were staying in my Dad's house (my Mom passed away a few years ago) b/c of the hurricane in Florida.  We had no electricity in our house but my Dad was in New Jersey.  She started looking through papers in his office and I told her she shouldn't do that b/c it's wrong and you ending up finding out things about people that you don't want to know.  Well, she didn't listen to me and found all kinds of things, including emails from me about her that my father printed and saved.  He also had notes about her where he wrote that she's sick and borderline and he also wrote "divorce lawyer" in the notes b/c I had once asked him if he knew a good one.  I am absolutely disgusted with her right now and I'm probably on the wrong discussion topic.

Do you defend everything, even if it's not something you don't personally agree with?

See above. Now I do.

Um, I can't say whether or not it's typical behavior, but wow, it's horrible stuff to hear ANYONE you love say to you. That's really painful stuff for me to even read. Probably because I've heard it and I know how it feels. It's not stuff you need to tolerate. Do you tolerate that kind of stuff often?
Yes, I tolerate it all the time.  When she's in her anger mode, there is no talking to her.  I'm seriously considering moving out tonight.
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startrekuser
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2017, 05:22:08 PM »

When she gets into a rage, she finds everything wrong with me and emails me and sometimes tells me to my face.  I tell her I love her and I want to be with her, etc and it doesn't matter.  She comes back with a negative NO MATTER WHAT I SAY.  Also, she won't to speak to me and is very adamant about not speaking to me.   It's kind of strange.  I'll say hi, she won't say anything.  So then I don't speak to her.

When she's not in a rage and we're at peace and getting along, the anger is barely below the skin.  She won't touch me, kiss me, say "I love you".  She won't put up a picture of me anywhere in the house, but puts up plenty of pictures of our daughter.  In other words, the signs of hatred for me are always there.

She's difficult to say the least.

Let me add something that should be with my previous post.  When she searched though my father's records, she found my mother's will from when my mother passed away.  Apparently, my brother's wife got the better jewelry as an inheritance.  I'm not surprised b/c I'm sure my mother hated my wife.  I don't blame my mother for that.  Also, she found my father's will and there's something in there about wives and ex-wives not getting any money directly.  My part would all go to me in a trust of some sort.  And she's throwing all this in my face after I told her not to go through someone else's stuff!  I mean, it's disgusting what she did.  She violated his privacy AND after I asked her nicely not to.  I'm at a crisis point right now.  I'm absolutely furious.
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 06:02:12 PM »

Coming from the other side of this a little... .
Early in my marriage my inlaws decided to create drama. They waited until about a month after we were married and went to my husband "revealing" things they had supposedly been told by people in our hometown about me. None of it was true or even based in reality, but that didn't stop the drama. My husband told me the things they said, and then played them against me for quite a while. I was pretty oblivious to the dynamic for too long.

But my point it, it hurt. It still hurts some, mostly because despite the pain his parents have caused him and continue to do he never stood up to them or told them they were being ridiculous. And when he would get angry about any perceived slight he would run to them saying "Oh, you were right about her!"

Having said that, I can honestly say I've never responded to any of it in the ways your wife is. To me it seems pretty dramatic, and she may be taking it to the extreme just to take the spotlight off of what she did by invading your dad's privacy. As long as she can keep escalating about whatever was in those emails she doesn't have to take any responsibility for her actions.

I've never understood the will thing. I have people in my family that have had these kind of reactions to wills also. I can see being hurt, but it wasn't her mom and you had no control over it.

I'm definitely not an expert, but I tend to think her reaction is a typical BPD way of trying to cover her actions. There's probably a term for it, but I don't know what it is offhand.
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startrekuser
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 03:18:54 PM »

I didn't move out.  I spoke with a friend and, amazingly, he told me he's in a similar situation with his wife and has decided to make peace in his home and stay with her.  And he is THE NICEST GUY!  Anyway, that calmed me down.  My wife still wants me to speak to my father in front of her and say she is a great person and that I was weak and that's why I said bad things about her to him.  She says she'll respect me if I do this.  I'm NOT doing it.  I've done similar things in the past and it only made things worse.  She never gained ANY respect and there's always something wrong with how I did what she asked me to do.  If nothing is wrong, then it's no good b/c she had to ask me and I didn't think of it myself.  The problem I have is that if I tell her I'm not doing it, that will start another rage.  It's SO difficult to face these rages.  As it is, she's still not talking to me and is disgusted with me.  At least that's what she says.
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startrekuser
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 03:54:49 PM »

I'm definitely not an expert, but I tend to think her reaction is a typical BPD way of trying to cover her actions. There's probably a term for it, but I don't know what it is offhand.

I tend to agree with you here.  She'll keep pushing me and if I bring up her bad behavior she'll push even more.  It's an extremely difficult situation.
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2017, 05:03:16 PM »

Here's the latest from my wife.  Frankly, I think she is a MASTER manipulator.  The fact is that she won't talk to me and she says that I am shutting HER out emotionally.  I sympathize. I empathize.  I tell the truth.  Then she makes ridiculous demands and I don't respond.  She demands I apologize to her in front of my father.  Not happening.  I've been through this before and it's never good enough for her.  

So here is her latest.  She started giving in a little bit here.  I think she realizes her tactics aren't working.  Read the whole thing below.  How do I respond to this?

"Shutting me out emotionally makes me distrust you and perpetuates unloving feelings.  Remember when you were stonewalling me when I was upset that you wanted a relationship with your brother.?  You shut me out, so I left you.  Then, you acknowledged how I felt and you did the right thing.  But, you had to be coerced into doing the right thing, so I still didn't trust you.  And how can a woman love someone she fears will stonewall her again?

You said that you understood what I needed from you in order to trust and love you.  Shutting me out emotionally is exactly what you said you would never do to me again!  

'A happy wife is a happy life.' Women are emotional, so what do you expect to gain from shutting me out emotionally?   I don't understand why you do this every time when you know your strategy is destined to fail.  My only answer is that you really can't stand me, and you meant every hateful word that you wrote to your parents about me.

I was mad at you for speaking abhorrent loshan Hora about me to your family.  You could have rectified this.  But instead of taking the strong and admirable path, you hide and run away from me especially when I plead.  This is cruelty.   I'm a woman and a wife who yearns to have a husband that doesn't have to be coerced into doing the right thing.  I'm not your parent, I'm your wife.  Its hard to trust and love you when I'm reduced to begging you to do the right thing.  It's a huge turnoff to have a man who runs and hides from me when caught doing something he can easily rectify!  We've discussed this so many times and you had agreed never to shut me out again!  You could easily wrap me around your finger, but instead you push me away.  We could have a loving relationship and we discussed what it would take so many times!  I'm sorry that I lashed out you cruelly at times, but I don't understand why you don't stand up for yourself and instead you use my anger as an excuse to not to do the right thing.  If you stood up for yourself, I would apologize in a second.  

Like I've always said, If you don't want to be married, just say so.  If you do want to stay married then why do you choose the destructive path?  A path that kills my love and trust for you each an every time?

  :)o you want to stay married or divorce?  Your waffling is confusing me.  I'm pretty sure that you want me to leave and this time you mean it.  You are very intelligent and you know that if I stay, and you persist on stonewalling me, then being a woman, life would be intolerable and I'm forced to leave you anyway.  So, my bet is that you would prefer I leave.  So I'll leave.  We have to then discuss the financial aspects of living apart.  Would you rather do it amicably or should we have attorneys do it?"
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startrekuser
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« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 02:35:24 PM »

My uBPD wife, when she gets upset at me about something will beat me up psychologically with insults, put-downs, complaints about all kinds of issues in the past, silent treatment,etc.  She makes me feel worthless.  Then when she wants me to respond to something related to the issue, if I don't respond, she gets really upset.  The thing is, after she's beaten me up verbally, I really don't feel like doing anything for her.  Then she gets upset that I'm ignoring her emails.  She says that I should come to her if I'm upset with what she's saying/doing and not hide.  I agree with her that I SHOULD come to her to stand up for myself, but when you're down and being beaten on, it's not so easy.  Opinions?
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« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 04:10:18 PM »

She makes me feel worthless.
Are you worthless?

You hear this a lot in self help circles - you can't "make" someone feel a certain way. It seems like BS to say that - she berated you, she put you down, she told you how horrible she thinks you are. While all this verbal junk was spewing forth, you felt worthless. But, what's the connection between the two? Is it cause an effect?

What if I told you that you are worthless? What if I went off on you, non stop, saying all sorts of personal things against you. How long would you stay and listen? How long until you disengage from what I'm saying and dismiss me as completely uninformed (which I am, when it comes to you)?

I think it would be more accurate to say that your wife's criticisms trigger feelings of worthlessness inside yourself.

We expect our partners to look at us and see us for who we truly are. IF we had a partner with that capability, we could then say "wow, my partner has shown that she really knows me. She's telling me I'm a coward, and since I believe that she knows me well, she must be right. It's my belief that she's accurate. Since she must be right, now I must examine myself. Oh no, now I'm not sure! AM I a coward?" Cue the feelings of worthlessness.

I don't believe our partners have the capability to see us for who we truly are. In fact, this is not unique to BPD. Most people will bring to the table their own history, their own conceptions and misconceptions based on their own life experience. For a person suffering with BPD, this is most often a history of abandonment, suffering, viewing the world as black and white - a whole bunch of things that make it really, really hard to look at people accurately.

So, with all of the above, how do you respond? In a word, honestly. Be true to who you know yourself to be. Don't know yourself? You're in luck! The best teacher is right in the very seat you're sitting in!

I repeat:
She makes me feel worthless.
Are you worthless?
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startrekuser
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2017, 01:23:08 PM »

Are you worthless?

You hear this a lot in self help circles - you can't "make" someone feel a certain way. It seems like BS to say that - she berated you, she put you down, she told you how horrible she thinks you are. While all this verbal junk was spewing forth, you felt worthless. But, what's the connection between the two? Is it cause an effect?

What if I told you that you are worthless? What if I went off on you, non stop, saying all sorts of personal things against you. How long would you stay and listen? How long until you disengage from what I'm saying and dismiss me as completely uninformed (which I am, when it comes to you)?

I think it would be more accurate to say that your wife's criticisms trigger feelings of worthlessness inside yourself.

We expect our partners to look at us and see us for who we truly are. IF we had a partner with that capability, we could then say "wow, my partner has shown that she really knows me. She's telling me I'm a coward, and since I believe that she knows me well, she must be right. It's my belief that she's accurate. Since she must be right, now I must examine myself. Oh no, now I'm not sure! AM I a coward?" Cue the feelings of worthlessness.

I don't believe our partners have the capability to see us for who we truly are. In fact, this is not unique to BPD. Most people will bring to the table their own history, their own conceptions and misconceptions based on their own life experience. For a person suffering with BPD, this is most often a history of abandonment, suffering, viewing the world as black and white - a whole bunch of things that make it really, really hard to look at people accurately.

So, with all of the above, how do you respond? In a word, honestly. Be true to who you know yourself to be. Don't know yourself? You're in luck! The best teacher is right in the very seat you're sitting in!

I repeat:Are you worthless?
Thanks!  This is excellent advice.  Why should I let her insults affect how I feel about myself? 
Anyway, I have another question.  Should I say something when she insults me and/or puts me down and/or accuses me of things I didn't do?  What should I say?  Thanks again.
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2017, 08:00:47 PM »

If she blames you for something you didn't do, you can try SET.  Say something like if you'd done that, you could certainly understand how she'd feel, etc.

If she is just insulting you... .I'm not very good at this either.  If it's clearly inappropriate, I generally calmly call it out as inappropriate more for my benefit than hers, and try to change the subject and move on, or disengage in a nondramatic way.

Wentworth
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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2017, 11:03:45 PM »

I'm very upset at my uBPD wife because of something she did that I spoke about earlier in this thread.  We were staying at my father's house b/c after hurricane Irma our house had no electricity.  My father wasn't there.  She went through his office and his papers and let's just say she found out things she didn't want to hear.  This is after I caught her going through stuff and asked her nicely not to do that anymore.  Anyway, she's furious at me and wants to talk about the issues that came up from her going through my father's private stuff.  I feel a lot of negativity towards her b/c of her going through his stuff.  I don't want to address her issues b/c of the negative feelings I have towards her resulting from this incident.  How do I tell her this and am I being unreasonable?  I need to some time to forgive and forget what she did.  It was totally wrong and inappropriate.
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2017, 05:10:06 PM »


Why would you "forgive and forget" something that she did that was totally wrong? 

In general... "saving" them from the consequences of their own actions... .especially wrong or abusive actions... .ends up being "enabling"

FF
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2017, 01:58:16 PM »

Thanks FormFlier.  When we speak, she gaslights me and doesn't let me express my opinion.  She knows she did wrong and for me to bring it up would be so painful to her that she can't handle it.  So how do I approach this? 

She also tore up greetings cards that I had given her.  She tried to embarrass me in front of our daughter and my daughter's friend - I walked out of the room.  There's a lot of bad behavior here that hasn't been addressed.
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2017, 02:31:35 PM »

From a female perspective, I'll say I think your wife is an extreme manipulator.

She's trying to interfere in your relationship with your brother! What the heck!

"You had to be coerced... ."

And finally, does loshan hara prevent one from seeking guidance from parents?

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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2017, 02:41:17 PM »

Thanks CAT.  By the way, our cat looks like your picture!  LOL.

Answering your question, consulting my parents would be OK if they were helpful, not if they were harmful.  In the past, they weren't helpful.

My father now is very helpful.  He pointed out the concept of BPD to me and told me that I should seek help.

Frankly, I think drastic steps are needed at this point to attempt to fix this relationship.  I'm probably going to consult an attorney.  It won't necessarily help, but this relationship is a never-ending nightmare.
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2017, 03:13:47 PM »

She's trying to interfere in your relationship with your brother! What the heck!

My dBPDw is not speaking to her family or mine. Anyone who loves me is seen as a threat. She can't just be number one, she has to be the ONLY one.

Don't let her turn you against your family or try to manipulate you into ripping them all a new one just to prove you love her. Once you start down that road it will never end.

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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2017, 03:20:39 PM »


Can you fill in some details about what she snooped... .what she found... .what she alleges... .etc etc.

I'm not trying to minimize the basic breach of trust... .but finding and spreading records of medical issues versus finding a bunch of checks and saying "they spend too much on the gardener" are different issues , even though the foundation is the same.

Also... what has been done to this point.  How did you find out about the snooping... etc etc.

FF
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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2017, 03:56:03 PM »

We live in FL and lost electricity due to hurricane.  We stayed at my Dad's house since he is a snowbird and wasn't in Florida at the time.

She found an email I had sent to my dad 16 years ago that he kept and I said in my email that one of my wife's emails to him was drivel.  Got that?  It can be a little confusing.

She also found some notes he made that said she is sick and borderline.

From an earlier post in this thread:

When she searched though my father's records, she found my mother's will from when my mother passed away.  Apparently, my brother's wife got the better jewelry as an inheritance.  I'm not surprised b/c I'm sure my mother hated my wife.  I don't blame my mother for that.  Also, she found my father's will and there's something in there about wives and ex-wives not getting any money directly.  My part would all go to me in a trust of some sort.  And she's throwing all this in my face after I told her not to go through someone else's stuff!  I mean, it's disgusting what she did.  She violated his privacy AND after I asked her nicely not to.  I'm at a crisis point right now.  I'm absolutely furious.
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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2017, 09:07:54 PM »

Formflier - i found out because she told me.  She scanned some of the docs and emailed the to me.
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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2017, 10:23:38 AM »


Wow... .ok.

Do you have a therapist?  Does your wife?  Marriage counselor?  Basically... .any professionals involved at all?

Does your Dad know?  Has he said anything to your wife?  Is your Dad a pretty solid guy?  Able to handle a difficult meeting?

Please don't do anything, but I would consider the following.

Have your Dad write a letter to your wife and follow that up with an in person chat.  Letter tone should be matter of fact, with a hint of friendly/that just the way it is.

Express shock and disappointment about the invasion of privacy and then ask her directly what questions she may have/what she was looking for. 


Make some statements in there about wills and that he didn't take anything personally about the division of property and neither should she.  Perhaps validate that the goal wasn't to be fair but to carry out her final wishes... .not those of anyone else.

Request her to honor privacy in the future and ask directly if he can count on her to do that.

I'm totally thinking out loud here and I see less than a page to accomplish all of this. 

The letter is not about getting your wife to do certain things... .it's about reality and not saving her from it.  And about laying a paper trail.

Thoughts?

FF

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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2017, 12:11:21 PM »

Hi Form.  Thanks for responding.  My Dad doesn't know about the invasion of privacy b/c I haven't told him.  If I tell him, then I would be betraying my wife, although I totally disapprove of what she did.  We've tried couples marriage counseling in the past and it was always a disaster for various reasons related to her being BPD.  If a counselor called her out for her bad behavior, he was no longer our counselor.  Otherwise, the whole time was spent on talking about what I did wrong.  It was totally unbalanced.
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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2017, 09:22:36 PM »

 
This is obviously something to think about.

My gut is that your sense of "betraying you wife" is overblown.  She did wrong here.

"Hey babe... .I feel horrible about the invasion of my parents privacy.  They need to know.  I would want them to know.  Please send them an apology and thank them for their hospitality in our time of need."

if she does... great.

If she doesn't... perhaps you tell her you will be talking to your parents about this in 1 week.  Then do it.

Don't "save" pwBPD from themselves. 

Here is the thing.  This is about future snooping... .this one is already done.

If "this one" is painful enough... perhaps she won't do it in the future.

If this one "works for her"... .you can be sure to see it again.

Consider if you want to see it again... .

FF
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« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2017, 10:44:17 AM »

Don't "save" pwBPD from themselves.

This is a lesson I've had to learn over and over again. Not my job to "save" him from humiliation or consequences. And it's his behavior, not a reflection on me, even though I choose to be with him.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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