How to deal with her threats to leave and subsequent impulsiveness?

[Husband321]

Little things set off my BPD wife.  Just like many stories here... .so loving, so many promises from her, then all of a sudden a face I make, a comment, engages her. Which instantly leads to her shouting "I don't want to be here.  I don't love you.  I want a divorce"

Most of the time she is seemingly bluffing.  Or just angry.  But it hurts nonetheless.

The last time she did this and actually left she took 25k cash and rented a house on her own.  Immediately.  2 days later she wanted to be back with me.  Luckily we got most of the money back within 4 months.

I was done at that point.  But she had an idea to give me 50k cash to "prove" she will never do this again. If I take her back.  I figured we should try it.

Well, the threats to leave continue.  She packs all her things and messes up entire home. But now adds "and I want my money back that you stole". "Or I will get an attorney!"

Part of me wants her to go,  but she will just do something impulsive like the last time, and cause another huge problem when a day later she changes her mind and misses me. 

Any advice?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Husband321]

At this point she told her family she is moving out last night.  They offered to come help her.  Finally I agreed , and said let's sign the divorce papers, and you can go.

Then at that point she didn't want to.  She said she is staying until papers are signed, and not moving anything from my house.

We slept together, amazing sex, then she set me off this morning when she was casually telling me how she is selling the dogs, getting ready to leave etc.

Is she serious? Saying to get a reaction? Wanting me to chase?

It seems I am stuck.  If I try to convince her she becomes entrenched in leaving.  If I sit back and relax she either won't leave, OR she might and do something spontaneous.  Perhaps thinking I don't love her.  Not sure what to do

[Husband321]

At this point she offered to stay the weekend and wants to remain sexual, but on her terms.

Not sure what to do. She is firmly entrenched that it is all over. Yet still wants to stay a few more days... .

[Tattered Heart]

Hi Husband321,
Sorry things are so rough for you right now. I can imagine how confusing and frustrating the back and forth would be.

then all of a sudden a face I make, a comment, engages her.

What kind of face or comment do you make that sets her off?

It seems I am stuck.  If I try to convince her she becomes entrenched in leaving.  If I sit back and relax she either won't leave, OR she might and do something spontaneous.  Perhaps thinking I don't love her.  Not sure what to do

Someone once told me that when you are in a combat zone, if you are in the middle you will get hit. Choose a side. I know for myself, when I feel stuck, making a decision, one way or the other relieves a ton of pressure. So what do you want? What side will you choose?

At this point she offered to stay the weekend and wants to remain sexual, but on her terms.
Not sure what to do. She is firmly entrenched that it is all over. Yet still wants to stay a few more days... .

This is giving her the message that she can come and go as she pleases. People will treat us the way we allow them to treat us. Are you ok that?
We have a couple of workshops that I think might help you out quite a bit:
1.    Don’t Be Invalidating
2.    Triggering, Mindfulness, and WiseMind
3.    Boundaries

[Husband321]

My conundrum is that while she is packed, she has not moved out yet. 

My options are

A:  tell her to unpack or leave.

B. Spend the weekend with her, hope to have a good time, and she changes her mind.   She changes her mind often.

Just hard for me to have a good time when she keeps alluding to her leaving. She has been saying she would for the last 4 days, but is now saying Monday for sure

[Husband321]

Well I am hurting. 

She is still here, yet just casually saying, without a care in the world, how she is moving to her moms house and will sort out her life alone.

Constantly thinking there is someone else.  Although she denies it.

I mean she is literally just leaving everything, to stay with her mom who she doesn't like, leaving her step son, to have and do absolutely nothing?

I told her I would help her move her things and she flipped out and became enraged.  It's like if I don't care then she can't handle it.  If I try and reason with her it becomes her feeling good and just hurting me by saying so casually "I just don't want this"

Just a week ago we were house hunting and she "loved me more by the minute"

[AskingWhy]

Husband321, I am so sorry you are feeling this way.

My uBPD/uNPD husband is the same way.  When he is stressed, he rages and threatens divorce.  For years I was devastated, but after many years I also came to understand they were just that:  threats.

My H also changes his mind often.  We can have plans to go out to dinner, for instance, then something I say will trigger him and he will rage that dinner is cancelled.  That is the nature of BPD and NPD.

Then again, even if our spouses leave, nothing can prevent them from doing it.  They are free to go, and we must figure out how best to deal with it.

As the nonBPD, we know inside our spouses have a problem with emotions and reality.  We have to accept that.

[Husband321]

She is packing to go to her moms.   

As painful as this is, I have to look at t like that.  Let it go.

Did your ex have a way of pushing your buttons to the point you do say hurtful things, and then it is all your fault? Like really really pushing. Then they only remember your response. Then blame you.

That's the point we are at.  She just says "I don't want to be married to you. You said hurtful things".  But two weeks ago she loved me more by the minute. 

[Husband321]

Stuck in a weird purgatory. 

She won't budge and says she is leaving.  It is over. 

But she keeps delaying actually leaving.  Has been day to day for a week.

This morning she woke up ready to leave.  She then started drinking so she can't leave now.

However she just says "we can't be together" and is definitely leaving soon. 

The energy is unbearable. Like just delaying the inevitable.

[Husband321]

Now with everything packed she is telling me she can't leave. She suggested we take a vacation together then separate. She said she feels crazy.

[Meili]

And, I bet that she does feel crazy. Just like you, she's having to deal with some very conflicting emotions. To make it worse, for her, she is probably dealing with them at a far more intense level than you are.

Have you tried to validate the emotions that she is actually conveying? By that, I mean, ignoring her words and paying attention to the emotions. Are you Listening with Empathy?

You mentioned trying to reason with her. That probably won't be very effective. Reasoning with an emotionally dysregulated person rarely works. What does seem to work is being strong, Mindful, empathetic, and validating. When we try to reason, we inadvertently invalidate and tell the other person that they are wrong. This typically escalates the situation.

When she tells you that she doesn't love you and wants to leave, what do you say to her?

[Husband321]

It's the same cycle we went through a few months ago... .

She has her stuff at her moms now.  However she doesn't want to leave my place.

She tells me how much she loves me etc. wants to stay the weekend. But then says things like "I need to find my own place " etc. she will basically never want to leave, but also not be fully committed

It's like she wants to be married and live in separate houses

[Meili]

That must be really confusing and hard to deal with.

It sounds like she isn't ready for the relationship to end, but finds it too painful for her to stay there.

In your first post, you mentioned that if you make a face or comment, she wants to leave. Can you give us an example of a comment or describe the face that you are making?

A lot of times, we are invalidating without meaning to be. I struggled with this quite a bit before I discovered the workshop Stop Invalidating Others. I found out that there was a whole slew of invalidating things that I said and did. Examples from the workshop include:

• Ordering them to feel differently- ":)on't be mad. Get over it."
  
• Ordering them to look differently- "don't look so sad."
  
• Denying their perception or defending - "that's not what I meant"
  
• Making them feel guilty- "I tried to help you"
  
• Trying to isolate them- "you are the only one who feels that way"
  
• Minimizing their feeling- "you must be kidding"
  
• Using reason- "you are not being rational"
  
• Debating- "I don't always do that"
  
• Judging and labeling them- "you're too sensitive"
  
• Turning things around- "you're making a big deal out of nothing"
  
• Trying to get them to question themselves- "why can't you just get over it?"
  
• Telling them how they should feel- "you should be happy"
• Defending the other person- "she didn't mean it that way"
  
• Negating, denial, and confusion- "now you know that isn't true"
  
• Sarcasm and mocking- "you poor baby"
  
• Laying guilt trips- "don't you ever think of anyone else?"
  
• Philosophizing and cliches- "time heals all wounds"
  
• Talking about them when they can hear it- "you can't say anything to her"
  
• Showing intolerance- "I am sick of hearing about it"
  
• Trying to control how long someone feels about something- "you should be over that by now"
  
• Explanation- "maybe it's because _____ "
  

Are you inadvertently invalidating her?

[Husband321]

Yes. I probably have been invalidating.

She is coming to see me today.  Her idea.  Wants to be intimate.

Then she texts that she planned 2 upcoming trips alone and is moving to another state. Not sure where though.  But is so in love with me. 

Just so confused.

[Husband321]

Well two weeks ago we were looking at houses. 

Now she got tickets to fly across he country to visit friends. Has plans for her bday next month.  And says she is looking at schools across the country to visit.

She says she loves me and wants to keep seeing me and having sex. But it's over. 

Just totally lost. She is ending this as if we went on two dates together.

[Husband321]

Any advice at all? She has a ticket to leave in two days. 

The good as of now:

A. She is spending nights with me.
B. Texting she is madly in love
C. Great sex
D. Great conversation.
E. She is the type that could change her mind and stay.

The bad:

A. Any convo about us she clams up and gets mad
B. Clearly tells me on a straight voice she is leaving and wants divorce
C. Tells me she just doesn't know how to live with me.

So what do people mean by set boundaries? Sort of an ultimatum?

My choices are

A.  Just tell her not to go firmly.
B. Just have fun and act like all is normal. Perhaps feelings will return and she won't go?
C tell her if she leaves I will go no contact and move on?

[Husband321]

Well she left.  Been three days.  Constant mixed signals.

Texting me how much she loves and misses me.  Telling me I am the only person she can ever be with.  How she can't wait that long to see me and will amend trip.

So we talked on the phone and it was the opposite!  She was saying she doesn't like the state we live in.  Won't come back to live with me.  Has to focus on herself and not this relationship. 

It's maddening.  And I have no clue which part is real.

She told me she would let me know how she would amend her trip this morning.  And haven't heard a word all day

[Jack_50]

My 2 cents : She is testing you.

Women often need confirmation of their relationship status, and by instinct they verify this by submitting their partner to so called sh1t-tests : Emotionally constructed test-cases that elicit a reaction.  She will evaluate your reaction closely, and take a conclusion about her relationship status based on that.

I think she does love you, and the push-aways are the tests. 
Solution: Ignore the test, confirm that you love her, you want to be with her, and ask her not to leave.
Do this in a calm and convincing way, and be prepared that 1 time is not enough : She will re-verify your initial positive pass-response with more tests, to verify if it was really true and you really meant it.  So have patience, and keep selling to her the idea that you belong together.  You'll see that it dies down when she starts to be convinced.
Some women are extremely insecure, and they can drive a man mad with their constant testing.  That insecurity probably stems from their childhood, or some other life-event in their past.
Also: What is her age?  Around mid-life it would not be so abnormal to re-evaluate her future life-path; she is just checking where she is by these tests.  Kind of like a man's mid-life crisis.

Hope it helps to shed some light,

Jack

[Husband321]

Well now she amended her trip and is coming back tomorrow. 

But.  This was she said ... .

"I will see you and let's have fun for two weeks.   Then I will look for where I will live in California.  So I am being very transparent.  Do not say I led you on.  And you can visit me anytime in the future. I don't want to argue about it"

So obviously this make no sense to me.  As why waste two weeks with me now, when she could already be looking for a home there?

Also, with her, she does not "come around" until I pull away.  It seems the more I try to convince her not to move, the more she says she will. If I just ignore her for two days she then misses me it seems 

[Jack_50]

Ok, things are getting more clear.

She is testing if you are a strong man with principles (boundaries).
Women often need a man to have clear boundaries, and to not hesitate to impose them on their partner.  This is all because they need a protector.
This behavior is based on instinct, and I bet she has no idea herself why she does this.  Which is one of the reasons why she gets so frustrated.
Secondly, the fact that you do not know what is going on, is proof to her that you do not understand her, making you a less suitable mate, and making her a lot more frustrated with you.  She needs someone who understands her and guides her in life.
About the boundaries : she is testing whether you allow her to get away with unacceptable behavior; which is basic boundary testing.
She puts you in the position where she is leaving, but still uses you for fun.  If you do not make a point that this is unacceptable to you, she will regard you as weak and a pushover.  And the last thing a woman wants is a weak man.
You have already shown that she can fool you around, so your credit is quite low.
I think it is time to put up a clear boundary : you need clarity, and do not have time to waste on someone fickle: either she is dedicated to you and stays, or she leaves and you'll never see her again.  There is a whole world of options out there for finding a partner, and your (life) time is too important to waste like this.  Tell her that you  would love to spend the rest of your life with her, but will not hesitate to move on if she is not dedicated to you in the same way.
Tell her this in a calm and convincing manner, and give her time to absorb this turnaround in your behavior (meaning: do not put any importance on her first reactions, she WILL object in some way initially, to not lose face).  Keep confirming that this is your point of view (remember: she will re-verify), and she will come to accept this as the choice she has.
From her behavior (amend trip, sex, etc), it looks that she is really in to you.  She just needs confirmation that you are a strong man with principles.

Just my personal opinion, hope it helps to clear things up.

Jack

[Husband321]

Thanks jack.  I think you are right.  I do not think she even knows why she says what she says, or does what she does.

Words do not get through to her.  But my actions seem to.

For example if I kept asking her to come back, she would not have. If I tell her it is unnacepstsble to be gone, then pull away, she comes back.

She knows I would not put up with the idea of living in a separate state. I told her I would divorce immediately.  So I told her I am not going to even discuss that while she is here. She was happy and agreed. But if as soon as I see her if I am like "I don't want you to move" then she would be like "well I am" and it would go back and forth forever.

So not sure if I played it right.  But when it comes up, if she brings it up, I have never  waivered on that.  Does it seem I played that correctly?

[LuvAlways]

Wow! this story is just like mine.  My BPDw has been threatening to leave for the last ten months.  And each time she packs, messes up the house and stacks her things in the garage.  Sometimes her things make it to the car and sometimes they stay in the garage.  Other times her things were simply stacked in her room.  24 to 48 hours she spends her time unpacking and re cleaning the house.  Sometimes I end up putting the house back together.  This has happened perhaps 40 or fifty times in ten months.  Each time I am the one that is screwed up, I am causing these "problems".  Even if I don't know what the problems are this time.  Then for a week or two we are on track for trying to fix things.

I am not trying to steal your thunder by turning my response to me, I am simply letting you know that we are living out an incredibly similar life with our loved ones.

I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer "try" to keep her here.  I have spent a lot of time in my recovery (Co-dependence) understanding that part of what makes love so unique is that each partner is there of there own free will.  I find happiness within myself and my partner enhances that happiness.  They are not there to create, or "make" my happiness.  This is not a question to answer from your partner or for your partner.  This is actually a question you must answer for yourself.

While I am working to that end, I mostly realize that the threats of leaving are actually cries for help from my BPDw.  I am learning not to take them personally, and I will let her leave if the fifty first time is real.

The question I would be asking myself (and I am asking it of myself) is:  What is best for me?

[Jack_50]

Husband321: you're welcome.

The reason that she pulls back when you ask her to stay, is that she needs you to be strong. If you ask her to stay, it means that you need her, so you are the weak party in this debate and you put all the power in her hands.  She is basically trying to teach you to not give your power away like that: your desperation after she pulls away should make it clear that this is not the way to go.
This is how a lot of women communicate : by inducing emotions in the other party (while most men usually communicate via clear and direct statements; this creates one of the main reasons why men and women have so much trouble understanding each other) : she is teaching you what she wants via emotional directioning.
So do not ask her to stay, simply stick to facts : that it is unacceptable for you to continue to see her if she is determines to move away.  All or nothing, that is the choice she needs to make.

Another thing that came to my mind, and this is also applicable for LuvAlways: you both mention regular and reoccurring patterns in her behavior. 
Do you have a log of the dates when her behavior changes from positive to negative and vice versa?  If not, it would be good to start a diary where you note down her mood of the day. 
Why : her monthly reproductive cycle.
On the internet there are some interesting testimonies of women who are not even aware of the effect of their hormonal changes; they were baffled when it became clear that the monthly divorce fight consistently happened exactly at their PMS time.  Worth looking into in my opinion.
In this regard, sexy time could indicate she is ovulating, while the fights or the home rearranging could happen when she is PMS-ing.
In general I think that this topic is still quite taboo in our current society, which causes a lot of men confusion and anxiety.
So try journaling all your interactions with her, and see if there is any regularity in her behavior over time.  It would help tremendously to better understand her and to decide how to react.

Jack

[Husband321]

Jack.  I agree.  Her and I actually did pay attention to her mentrual cycles and she agrees there is a definite link. 

I didn't bring anything up to her.  She decided she wants to "go all in" and live with me and be the best wife ever etc.

The problem is communication.  After 3 days of "perfect" she mentioned she said something like " I really liked the school in Colorado.  But loving there was too expensive for rent"

Which made me say "is that why you are here?"  Which led her to flip out.  Get mad.  Etc.   In my mind it was pretty hurtful to say that on her part.  Then she tells me "you are only thinking of the past and won't change"

[Jack_50]

Ah, but see, ovulation lasts only a couple days.  After that, it's back to her usual insecure testing and prodding behavior.

You're not the first man who is baffled by this Jekkle and Hyde behavior, but for women these switchovers are part of daily life.

So do not put too much importance on her words, and realize that her tests are actually a sign that she is interested in staying with you; she's just too insecure about it and needs confirmation from you.

Analyzing your example, she actually made up a reason NOT to stay away from you.  Next time just hug her and say "glad you're here".

I know, it takes experience to translate emotional language.  Patience and an open mind go a long way.  You also might want to work out or do some meditation to better prepare both.

Jack

[Husband321]

Luv always...

Yes. I endured the exact same.  Any little disagreement spirals out of control which leads to packing everything. Then her deciding to stay.  And 2 days of her putting all of her things back.   I think frustration is very tough for them to handle, and now feel it is on me to react differently to curb this behavior.

Jack you helped a lot.  I see it differently now.

I have found being calm but very direct is the only way.

An example could be earlier this week we went to her moms to get all of her things. About a 2 hour drive.  We were talking to her mom for a couple hours, she got one purse , and said "ok let's go.  I'll come back later this week to get my things"

I said. "No. I am not leaving.  Go inside and get everything. That's why we came here"

It was as if it almost turned her on. She did and later thanked me for being so direct.  In the past it might have been us leaving, then me complaining and prodding as to why she only got one purse. 

It really is a new style of communication and I feel she needs a container of sorts.

And yes.  In my mind I would never say to a woman "well I looked at houses in another state but they were too expensive"

But maybe in her mind it does not come across as rude.

[Jack_50]

Glad I could help.

It seems that being calm and direct is typically expected from the husband, so his wife can safely experience emotions to the fullest.  You did exactly that, and it made her feel safe and increased her attraction for you.

About the house comment : I think that was purely an attempt to hint that she wants to be close to you.  If the price would not have been the reason, she would have made up something else to refuse the option (too hot, too posh, ... .).  Emotional communication at its best.

Enjoy your new expertise, and have a great life.

Jack

[committed to her]

HUSBAND321

You have my sympathies.  This is my first time back on this web site in 8 years.  My wife of 17 years is BPD.  My first wife (married 12 years) was also BPD.  I skimmed through everything and the indecision is obviously driving you crazy.  My wife's BPD manifests in her leaving me and having an affair.  I have long since lost count (>20).  Most of the affairs are physical... .some just emotional.  Trying to convince her to not leave you is a worthless endeavor, as you have heard from others.  Arguing is worthless.  You must stand your ground (boundaries) and do so without getting angry (easier said than done).  Currently my wife has been having an emotional affair with a man and I told her it was inappropriate and I told her she had to choose between him and me.  She choose him.  I told her the consequence would be filing for divorce.  She made the choice and I filed divorce last week.  :)id it piss her off.  Oh yes.  She moved out and actually was mad enough to try and run me over when I tried (calmly) to get her to talk to me.  :)o I want a divorce... .No, but I need to stand my ground.  I love the woman.  You need to stand your ground, you can not be indecisive.  Do not get angry.  When you are indecisive... .She will not feel safe.  It is the only thing that will give you a chance.  

[Husband321]

Just thinking ahead.  But a couple of questions.  We have the same cycles.  Once again related possibly to ovulation cycles.

What tends to happen is that she just got back.  So of course it's constant cooking.  Cleaning. Sweet texts.  Amazing sex etc.

But then this turns to her in a couple of weeks feeling down. Household duties drop.  She has aches and pains.  Her laundry everywhere. She snaps at me.  Not happy about much. Etc.

Do I give that a pass?   Do I let her know I expect the same or similar level of being a wife consistently? Do I just have to ride that out anrd hope she becomes her old self again? Do I do her chores and mine as well?

She also asked me to put her on an allowance with her money.  The other issue we had is that she has a large inheritance and is blowing  through it. So she does not really NEED me as a provider although I am. She never really had money before.  So this allows her to also do some of the crazy things she has done.

[Jack_50]

To me it looks like she has burned her energy during the high days, and has no more left afterwards.
She's full of energy during ovulation, and trying hard to make an extra effort and keep it up, but inevitably burns out after some time.
The snapping can be a symptom of frustration; she tried hard but does not feel like it's enough to keep the momentum going.  Or she expects you to take over and continue her example instead.  Hard to say; this needs to be clarified in a discussion with her.

You can also mention that you appreciate her efforts, but that you prefer a more stable approach, in that she tries a bit less hard during the high days, and save some energy for the longer term.  Or you can agree that this is the new normal, you both accept it as part of life, while being fully aware of what is going on and trying to focus mainly on the positive aspects.  This is for you and your wife to work out.

About the allowance : This is her asking for your leadership and guidance.  She admitted she does not have the capability to manage her finances, and asks for your mentoring.  Take the opportunity to lead her, she will be grateful if you do.

Jack