Difficult/nonexistent relationship with our daughter in law

[Jacan]

We have a difficult relationship with our daughter in law. We suspect BPD. She has kept us from seeing or having any kind of relationship with our grandsons (ages 4 and 18 months). She has made it very difficult for our son to see us, his parents, his brothers or extended family.

[drained1996]

I've been your son... .I've had 2 pwBPD as significant others, so I at least comprehend his side a bit.  You've found the right place to discuss such issues, and I would urge you to keep posting and sharing to get input and reflections from the experience of those that are or have gone through such things.  Have you discussed any of your concerns or thoughts with your son?  What signs do you see that has you considering she suffers from BPD?  We are here.    

[Turkish]

Hi Jacan,

Like drained1996, I can kind of relate to this on the son side, though not to your extent. 

Has it always been this way with the 4 year old since he was young,  too? What reasons has she communicated for this emotional cut off? Are her parents in the mix?

T

[DaddyBear77]

Hello Jacan,

I am also someone in a position similar to your son. I love my mother and father very much, but because of my relationship with my wife, my parents have only met my 4 year old daughter once in her life. I do not have any other children.

About 10 years ago my parents were the first to suggest my wife had a personality disorder. They didn't know about BPD at the time, but they saw strong NPD traits. They did NOT share this with me until AFTER I opened the door for the conversation though.

Can you tell us a little more about your relationship with your son? Do you have the ability to speak to him on a regular basis? Do you reach out to him or is it usually him reaching out to you? How long has your son been married? We're there these kinds of difficulties before your grandchildren were born? Does he have siblings and does he speak to them?

[Jacan]

We had a wonderful 25 years with our son (he has a great sense of humor, zest for life etc... )  When he introduced us to his girlfriend, I welcomed her with open arms (his 2 brothers, my husband were more cautious).
They got pregnant.  After the baby was born my son, girlfriend and baby moved into her parents' house (with her 2 siblings).
They were married 4 months later and remained at her parents house for 10 months.
My son went to grad school for 2 years.
From the time they moved in with her parents our relationship started to deteriorate.  She expected us to come over to see our grandson at her parents' house.
We asked to have our own relationship with our grandson, suggesting many ways to get together.
They moved into a new condo, our daughter in laws' parents bought for them (giving them reduced rent), 3 miles away from her parents' (and grandparents' house.
We have met with our son about every 3-4 months alone for 3-4years.  We talked about how it was for us juggling to sets of grandparents, being fair, careful to refer to them as a couple, not singling out or criticizing his wife.
He would listen to us but not share anything she said but tell her what we said.
We tried mediation with a therapist which was unproductive.  Our daughter in law "unloaded" at the end of the session and the therapist defended me.
Our son came over earlier this year and told us they had been to a marriage class, one topic was about grandparents.  He understood us.
We could meet all of them.  We did at the zoo and got to see our grandsons, the first grandson after 2 years and the 2nd grandson for the first time at 14 months.
Three months went by,no more get togethers with no reason why not.
My husband and I met our son and my anger and frustration came out (something he was not use to seeing in me).
Our son says one thing (and it sounds like him) but does another?
He decided to "leave our family".  His brother said "no you're not".
We are now in dialog with our daughter in law by text message.  Sometimes it seems like we are going around in circles.
How do you keep your head from spinning?  How do you stay firm, calm etc... .and not defend yourself? How do you move forward in the conversation, leaving the past behind?  She definitely has it in for me (alone), "her champion" before the birth of their son?

[Notwendy]

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but the more I read about how a man has married a BPD woman, and cut off his family,  the more I see the situation my father was in with my mother with BPD.

It makes sense to put your spouse's wishes at a high priority, but I believe an emotionally healthy person would not demand that their spouse relinquish important family members.

Basically, my father chose to follow the directives of an emotionally disordered person- and that led both of them into accepting behavior that was hurtful to the people who cared about him.

I have a hard time even trying to understand how someone would think it was OK to see these family members hurt so much by the broken relationships with the people they love- sons, brothers, fathers.

I feel sad for the family members here going through this.

 

[Notwendy]

Although the focus is on your DIL, your son is making this decision too. He either agrees with it, or does not and is going against his own values and following his wife's wishes. Still, he is a grown adult and is responsible for his choices.

By focusing on the wife as the problem, you enter the drama triangle - either as a victim of her disorder or a rescuer of your son ( him as victim). What happens in this triangle is that the wife goes into victim mode- her hurt feelings- and sees you ( or something external to her) as  the cause. Your son is likely a rescuer to her - saving her from her bad feelings- and is likely to do almost anything she wants to make her feel better in the moment. Your son must be getting something from this role, or he would not persist in doing it, even at the personal cost to him.

My only advice to you is to stay in contact with your son, keep the door open should he choose to communicate and then, try to reestablish your own life with the situation as it is. Communicate neutrally- send a card once in a while, send birthday cards to both of them and your grandchildren, and stay calm and neutral. He made his choice to take this direction, and I am pretty sure it isn't easy for him at times, but it also has to be his choice to stand up to his wife or not.

In my case, my mother's FOO didn't want much to do with us kids, but my father's FOO welcomed us. Little children are sweet and compliant, but older ones and teens are not. There came a point where we kids didn't go along with my mother's rule of the house, and so we became a problem to her. During school breaks we stayed with my father's relatives. We have remain close to his side of the family. In your case, your DIL's parents are involved ( and possibly enablers). The future isn't certain but keeping a neutral stance opens the door to that possibility.

This is a situation that I find very sad. My father did this to his own FOO and to me as a grown daughter. My mother has people on "sides". You are either on her side or not her side. You do things her way, or not her way. The only way for me to stay in her good graces was to be completely compliant with her wishes, like my father was and I decided I couldn't do that. I also saw my father as her "victim" for many years. However, he was a grown adult, and so it was his choice too.

[DaddyBear77]

Jacan, I am so sorry you are going through this.

As Notwendy said, I also feel incredibly sad for the family members who go through this, including my own.

And also as Notwendy said, it's also really important to know that your son IS making a decision to live inside this relationship. He's not an innocent victim no matter how much he may try to present it in that fashion to you, your husband, and his siblings.

While he lives inside this relationship he will be living inside a world that has been referred to as "Oz" and what I refer to as just plain crazy. But it doesn't have to consume him. I really hope he realizes that. Without learning tools and skills necessary to stand up for his own values and ideals, he will likely continue to be a part of the Karpman Drama Triangle - click here to learn more. He'll switch from feeling like a victim to a rescuer and back again. His wife will also move around the triangle as well, from victim to persecutor.

Perhaps by keeping the communication open, you'll find a way to communicate some of this to him. He sounds like someone who wants to break free of this cycle but doesn't know how. Maybe I'm projecting. But in any case, understand that he must make these decisions.

As for what you can do, again, listen to what Notwendy said and find a life for yourself and your husband and make the best of what you have together with him and your other children. This is what my family of origin has done, and I completely understand why. It's kept them happy and fulfilled and they've taken ownership of their lives in order to enjoy it to the fullest.

I hope these posts and this perspective is helpful. Please let us know how you're doing.

[Notwendy]

Daddy Bear-

How do you feel about having made this decision ? You know that your family has been hurt by this. Their only choice is to move on.

You say you love your daughter. She's little and cute. She has no choice but to live in Oz with you and her mother. But one day she may not agree with the situation you chose with your wife. At that point you could be in a similar situation - choose your wife's reality or your relationship with your daughter.



People fear break ups of relationships but there is a special bond between parents and children both ways and if that bond is broken - it hurts. I believe an emotionally healthy marriage makes room for that love. Some BPD relationships apparently do not.

[Four Winds]

My brother's wife exhibits BPD behaviours (I have posted on this topic previously  bpdfamily.com > Children, Parents, or Relatives with BPD > Coping and Healing From a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw  > Topic: Brother's wife is uBPD - managing her alienation and isolation of him is so hard) and it causes tremendous hurt and heartache for the family members to stand by and watch.  uBPD SIL has "removed" him effectively from almost everything that is important in his life (... loving and supportive family, long term closest friends, any interests outside of work) - she financially strips him by dreaming up ways to spend his hard earned money.  They have been living way above their means, and she insists he pays for all sorts of unnecessary luxuries and expenses - as a consequence this year he has been suffering acute financial difficulties.  He is stressed out and every day is just about survival.  He comes home from work to do the housework, shopping, cooking, laundry, etc.  We realise that we cannot interfere as we do not want to provide her with the excuse to cut us off completely and as there are children we are not keen for this to happen.  So we just stand by - suffering silently at a distance, saying very little, avoiding the drama, keeping low contact and remaining neutral.  She dripfeeds him a diet of poison and has convinced him that he was emotionally abused growing up in our normal loving family which is nonsense, that his best friend is actually a very bad person, etc.  My brother is no longer himself, he is so terrified of her.  He is not allowed contact with his own friends, he has no opinions of his own any more, he only repeats what she tells him, he is unable to make any decisions as she controls everything, even tells him where he must sit at family occasions.  The children are a concern. They are also very scared of her. One child is the hothoused golden child, the other the neglected scapegoat child and both are exhibiting signs of damage entering their teens now. As she is getting older, she is definitely getting worse.  Its heartbreaking to watch but somehow I have to find the strength to turn away and stop worrying and somehow get on with my own life, but its the hardest thing ever.

[Notwendy]

He only repeats what she tells him

I completely get this. I recall my father as a younger man, when he was himself. It was a gradual process. I kept trying to connect with the ":)ad" I thought I had. He was basically an extension of my mother. He even sounded like her. She read the emails I sent him and listened in on our phone calls. This was not the father I remembered when I was a child.

I also think it is a gradual process. The constant listening to my mother- 24/7, appeasing her got to be a pattern. It's a tough one to stop. Some people manage it- with our without staying in the relationship- but it takes motivation, work, and knowledge on the part of the partner, and a tough look at themselves as well. This isn't something we - on the outside- can do or choose for them. There was little information about BPD and no internet when I was a child, but there is now. Still, my father was a smart man, with access to information later and he made the choices he did.

Generations later, we are close to our father's side of the family. My kids are friends with their cousins on that side. We are estranged from my mother's FOO. I can imagine how hard it was for my mother's family to see the changes in him. It did make a difference that they were there for us kids in the capacity they could- and if they had limited contact with us as young children, we chose to spend time with them later. I think they too realized that not interfering kept the door open for this chance to get to see us.

[Four Winds]

My brother is so similar, he has become an extension of his wife, she informed him that because he is in a "private marriage", her opinion is the only one he can listen to... .and he believes this is ok.  If that isnt being brainwashed then what is?  There is such limited opportunity for him to talk to anyone outside of her controlling sphere particularly as she calls and texts him repeatedly if she isnt by his side. Notwendy, it must have been especially painful to have your own father side with your mother against you.  My brother sides with is wife against me as well as to our mother, also I have witnessed his overly aggressive behaviour against his children if he perceives they have done the slightest thing to upset her - his whole personality has changed from good humoured and generous to very short tempered and at times quite heartbreakingly cruel and unkind. He becomes negative, demeaning and very disrespectful to us (and about us behind our backs) (i.e. his FOO and his close friends).  I think he believes that the worse he treats those in his life who love him and support him, the more reassured and happy she will become and then he will become happy too. 

[Notwendy]

Yes, it was painful. Even when he knew he was dying, he wouldn't change his mind. Visiting my parents was difficult as he would sometimes rage at me.

I called my father almost every day on the phone. He would speak for a few minutes, but then my mother would pick up the extension and he'd hang up right away.

After he died, I was not allowed to have any of his possessions. Sometimes I would sneak into his home office and just grab something when my mother wasn't looking. I am not proud of this, but I was desperate to have something to keep that was my father's. In his papers, I found an e mail he tried to send me. It was a nice e mail. My mother had his password and I can only assume he was not allowed to send it.

My father would do anything to make my mother happy.  I think it did give her some satisfaction to see him punish me. I know she gives orders to people in her circle to say and do things and it astonishes me that they comply. She ordered her family not to speak to me and they did.

I am sorry for you to see your brother do this, but there has to be something about him that chooses this. My siblings and I talk about this. We thought our father was the normal one but it is hard to understand how he made this choice. I got some insight into this when working on my own co-dependency traits, but the idea that someone breaks ties with his family, his own children for someone else is something I can not even begin to comprehend. I feel sad for all the families who are going through this.