Husband's business partner solicits escort services

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

One thing I've learned, is that boundaries (very strong... clear ones) are needed when in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I've also learned that strong... .clear boundaries are helpful in all human relationships, even if they are not "needed".

This post/situation shows that a husband/wife team that is part of a business (that all their livelihoods depend on), yet only one of them is "really" in the business and the other is "de facto" in the business... .I could probably describe it more ... .is a place with very murky boundaries.

Two steps

1.  Clarify the boundaries
2.  :)ecide what enforcement is OK to uphold those boundaries.

Might as well get to the crux of it.  Are the boundaries worth shuttering the business over?  Or splitting it.

If not, need to go back to step one.

Ultimately there are several other human beings here that you can make requests of... . They may do what you ask... .or they may tell you to (fill in the blank)... .or things in between.

At the end of the day it will get back to a personal boundary with you and what kind of marriage you are ok with being in.  Yes, many steps between that boundary and the business, but they are connected and worthy of a great deal of thought and reflection on your part... .before proceeding any further.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

One thing I've learned, is that boundaries (very strong... clear ones) are needed when in a relationship with a pwBPD.  I've also learned that strong... .clear boundaries are helpful in all human relationships, even if they are not "needed".

This post/situation shows that a husband/wife team that is part of a business (that all their livelihoods depend on), yet only one of them is "really" in the business and the other is "de facto" in the business... .I could probably describe it more ... .is a place with very murky boundaries.

Two steps

1.  Clarify the boundaries
2.  :)ecide what enforcement is OK to uphold those boundaries.

Might as well get to the crux of it.  Are the boundaries worth shuttering the business over?  Or splitting it.

If not, need to go back to step one.

Ultimately there are several other human beings here that you can make requests of... . They may do what you ask... .or they may tell you to (fill in the blank)... .or things in between.

At the end of the day it will get back to a personal boundary with you and what kind of marriage you are ok with being in.  Yes, many steps between that boundary and the business, but they are connected and worthy of a great deal of thought and reflection on your part... .before proceeding any further.

Thoughts?

FF

[snowglobe]

This will take time... .for whatever goal you have.

What is your goal for the next month... .six months... .year?

FF

Dear @Formflyer,
Huh question took me by surprise. I realized although I want and need the change, ultimately I have no clear plan how to excecute it.
In terms of steps rather then goals that I have set for myself:
1. Learn how to practice empathy. I am terrible with that, I can sympathize till I’m blue in the face, yet empathy doesn’t come natural to me. My BPD upbringing wasn’t fostering or nurturing in terms of validating other people’s feelings, let alone my own. I want to learn how to do it more naturally, and would accept any advice regarding this topic.
2. Spend less time being at my uBPDh “back and call”, my availability feeds into the rescuer mode. By always being there, like a babysitter I’ve blurred the line even further. Perhaps sometimes he needs to learn how to depend on himself.
3. Focus on self improvement, specifically support group for codependency, if I learn how to function on my own, for the first time in 33 years, perhaps his trips wouldn’t create separation anxiety.
4. Start building and fostering relationships outside of my marriage. I realize that I have no support group, should the things go sour. All of my eggs are in one basket, he knows it and I know it. Therefore there is no healthy fear of loosing something, when you know that the other party isn’t going anywhere.
5. Learn how to NOT reinforce unhealthy behaviours, thus feeding into dysfunctional pattern. No foot massages, running out to buy him smokes (he’s been addicted to nicotine for as long as we have been together, part of my job description is to go and buy him sigarettes whenever he runs out), stick to him and try to engage in a conversation to fill in the void.
6. Very important one, probably the most- finish education and find the job. Every time he is disregulated and wants to punish me he says “go start looking for a job, and pay for your expenses” all the while knowing that I have my plate full with raising a family, cooking and cleaning, helping him with business and studying. He is telling me that not because we are short on the finances, but to “show me that I’m at the bottom of the food chain”. It’s done so my self esteem and self worth would be shuttered “go start cleaning the houses, go work in MC Donald’s and etc” all the while knowing that I have education and experience to obtain higher paid and more prestigious positions. I never want to hear that again, so I will get a job that I like and enjoy. The one that fits with my self image.

[snowglobe]

We went to an MC who focused on my co-dependency. I was angry at first- why me? Why not him? but I realized that she saw that I was motivated to work on myself. I think it has made a difference for me.

Please tell me more of how the process began and what were your goals? Did you pwBPD work with you, or was it a “sole project”?

[formflier]

I like your goals.  They are all things you can do... .your hubby is not required for any of them.

Solid...

FF

[Notwendy]

My journey with BPD didn't start with my marriage. My mother has BPD and I took on the family role of walking on eggshells and keeping her happy by being a doormat. I did the same thing in my marriage.

I didn't go to MC with a plan. I just couldn't focus on trying to fix my marriage. My father was elderly and ill, and I was grieving the impending and eventual loss of my father. That took my focus off walking on eggshells. and as you can imagine, things escalated. There is an extinction burst when things change, but this time, it just didn't work. I think my H noticed the change in me. I was no longer willing to be a doormat to my parents, or him, or anyone. I think it scared him but I wasn't acting like I was in order to scare him. It wasn't the push pull. I was not emotionally available for any drama.

I had begged him to try MC before, but he refused, insisting that MC leads to divorce. I think he was afraid the MC would encourage me to leave him. We found an MC who specialized in tough cases and trying to keep marriages together, so he reluctantly agreed.

She was brilliant. She knew that if she focused on him at all, he'd walk out ( he did this once before in MC) She put the focus on me. I was mad at first- after all- I was the scapegoat in my FOO and in my marriage and was this more of the same? She prescribed 12 step meetings - and I had been isolating myself because my H didn't like it if I went anywhere in the evenings,  but I had to as this was when the meetings were. I got a sponsor. I followed her lead. I credit this sponsor and the 12 steps for the changes I had to make with myself.

This risks a relationship. My H could have left, found another co-dependent person, but he is also invested in the marriage. I would also say that he isn't the full BPD my mother is- and is capable of making some changes. I had to take the lead in this, but as I became less co-dependent, things did get better over time.

They say people sometimes have to hit bottom to make a change. I was not "done" with my relationships, but I had had enough of the drama triangle and that motivated me to change. 

[snowglobe]

My journey with BPD didn't start with my marriage. My mother has BPD and I took on the family role of walking on eggshells and keeping her happy by being a doormat. I did the same thing in my marriage.

I didn't go to MC with a plan. I just couldn't focus on trying to fix my marriage. My father was elderly and ill, and I was grieving the impending and eventual loss of my father. That took my focus off walking on eggshells. and as you can imagine, things escalated. There is an extinction burst when things change, but this time, it just didn't work. I think my H noticed the change in me. I was no longer willing to be a doormat to my parents, or him, or anyone. I think it scared him but I wasn't acting like I was in order to scare him. It wasn't the push pull. I was not emotionally available for any drama.

I had begged him to try MC before, but he refused, insisting that MC leads to divorce. I think he was afraid the MC would encourage me to leave him. We found an MC who specialized in tough cases and trying to keep marriages together, so he reluctantly agreed.

She was brilliant. She knew that if she focused on him at all, he'd walk out ( he did this once before in MC) She put the focus on me. I was mad at first- after all- I was the scapegoat in my FOO and in my marriage and was this more of the same? She prescribed 12 step meetings - and I had been isolating myself because my H didn't like it if I went anywhere in the evenings,  but I had to as this was when the meetings were. I got a sponsor. I followed her lead. I credit this sponsor and the 12 steps for the changes I had to make with myself.

This risks a relationship. My H could have left, found another co-dependent person, but he is also invested in the marriage. I would also say that he isn't the full BPD my mother is- and is capable of making some changes. I had to take the lead in this, but as I became less co-dependent, things did get better over time.

They say people sometimes have to hit bottom to make a change. I was not "done" with my relationships, but I had had enough of the drama triangle and that motivated me to change. 

Wow, I’m so glad you shared this story with me. It describes my feeling of “always being a doormat and emotional caretaker to my mother”, the only way to placate her was to do everything as she wanted and quick, with a smile. I was never allowed to be sad, grieve or have an opinion of my own. When at my tender age of 7 yo, she has had a 2 months long affair, while on vacation, and came back to my dad, I was never allowed to mention the affair or her lover. While it became “our secret”, I was slowly decaying inside. Imagine such a young child, lying to her dad. My father sensed a change in her, as she told him that she didn’t love him anymore. Long story short, he manipulated and tricked me saying that “someone told him she had a special friend, and if I don’t tell him immidiatly, he would disown me”. I still remember vividly, sitting in his car, and telling him that they were just friends. Nothing happened. I thought I was protecting her, but I actually confirmed his suspicions. I won’t go into details describing how he almost killed her. While fighting, he threw her through a glass door. With many cuts to her body she took me and we left. I spent next 4 years of my life dealing with her emotional rollercoaster while they shared custody. I’ve gotten used to the dread feeling, and the fact that I was an object passed around like a torch. She leaned on me as if I was an adult, from her multiple abortions from different men, to paranoia about everyone being jealous of her and mistrust I was hanging on to the connection to other people. Oh, how I wished I had someone to talk to, someone who would listen to me, someone who did not say that if I did not do, behave as they say they would leave me. Ironically, my uBPDh is the most stable male person in my life

[Notwendy]

It has been written that we choose a romantic partner who matches our issues from our FOO's.

I spent years reading marriage books, trying to fix the marriage, but that didn't work well. I turned my focus on to working on me.

It wasn't about leaving or staying in the relationship ( there was not a danger of physical abuse or other issues that would have been deal breakers for me). It wasn't about the relationship at all. It was about emotional recovery from the dysfunctional behaviors I learned growing up.

Don't blame yourself- we had to learn them to survive in our families. The great part is that if we can learn them, we can unlearn them too.

Many posters here have reported being raised in dysfunctional families.

One 12 step program that has helped me is ACA. It isn't just for children of alcoholics. Many other dysfunctional families fit a similar pattern.

My mother also started to lean on me as a confidant when I was a young teen, telling me TMI about her relationship with my father. My father was an amazing dad to me, unless my mother was angry, then he would turn on me. My father would do anything to make my mother happy. I just wanted his approval and that was contingent on her moods. I just became a doormat to try to get his approval. I took this idea into my relationship with men, I thought I had to be a compliant doormat with them too.

But not anymore 

[formflier]

I want to echo Notwendy's comments about coming into adulthood with the "equipment" we have from childhood. 

Good on you for "seeing it" and for wanting to work on it.  Good on you for not "handing the issue" to someone else.  For owning your part.



 

FF

[Notwendy]

Sometimes it is a childhood pattern that is behind our fears. As adults, we can rationalize the situation but still feel it like we did as children.

One example for me is angry people. If someone is angry at me, I can think about it rationally- maybe I did something wrong, or maybe the person is having a bad day, maybe it has nothing to do with me. Yet, I can be trembling over it. The person may be angry at me, but they are not going to hurt me- and yet, I can feel shaken up about it in a larger way than the situation is.

Back to childhood- a time where anger was a larger threat. Children are small- and large angry people are terrifying. If my mother was angry- there was real trouble. Threat of my mother leaving was one of them. That is very scary to a child.

One of the reasons I walked on eggshells in relationships was fear of people I cared about being angry at me. The threat was not the same, but the fear was there. Many people just forgot about it and let it go long before I was able to stop being fearful.

I'm not trying to be a therapist here- I am not one and just guessing- but look at your childhood- your mother was doing things you fear your H might do- make bad decisions, cheat- and she nearly died. You felt responsible for her decisions and her feelings- something you are not ,and certainly not the job of a child. Yet, this was your "normal".

If your H did cheat, it would hurt- it would hurt anyone. I think you would handle it differently as an adult than you did as a child though. Yet, your fears may still be the ones you felt as a child and feel overwhelming.

[snowglobe]

@formflier,
Very peculiar incident happened yesterday. V. Called my cell, I didn’t hear the call so it went unanswered. When I noticed a missed call from V., I wasn’t sure if he dialed me by mistake, so I just sent him a text asking if he dialed me by accident. He called back saying he wanted to speak to me about uBPDh. Few days prior we’ve met with people in the similar business, who could potentially be an asset for my uBPDh’s business. He made a social connection and agreed to follow up with a meeting. When he came to work the following day and shared it with V. He went ballistic on him. Saying that he didn’t want my uBPDh discussing business with anyone, and V. was handling it. My uBPDh told him that he was paranoid and told him to mind his own business. That is what brought V. to calling me. He wanted me to influence my uBPDh, as he takes my advice when it comes to business decisions, more times then not. What an irony. I said that I could hear V.’s frustration, thus being empathetic, and proceeded to tell him that I also feel frustrated by him objecting to me coming along. We went back and fourth talking about boundaries (stage 1 of conflict, his definitely compete with mine). At the end of the conversation he said that he wouldn’t ever object to me coming, as long as my uBPDh doesn’t discuss business with other people.
Two things; one is V. Is scared that my uBPDh will find support and partnership outside of his relationship with V. I see it clearly. Two, he can’t be trusted, as he fought with me for so long, just to throw away his demands at a wimp of a threat of my uBPDh making new business connections.
At the end I decided to speak frankly with my uBPDh and treat him with respect, as an adult who is capable of making his own decisions. I told him about the conversation that took place, and that I think he should do whatever he thinks is right in this setuation. I won’t try to trade tokens to get what I want.
I’m disappointed in myself, I was supposed to attend the codependency support group, yet I was carpooling my d14 to her extracurricular activity and shopping while waiting for her.
I’m not sure whether it was incident with V. that contributed, or it’s gonna be like that forever now, but after playing him video game and cursing under his breath he left our family bed and spent the night on The couch. It’s strangely becoming our new normal. I don’t try to bring him back upstairs as he never agrees, so it’s fruitless attempt that creates an anxiety and fear. My sleep is later disturbed and I’m a wreck for a day to come. I’ve gained weight, lost the will to dress up, kind of coming back to that miserable place. I should have been at that support group last night, yet competing demands make it hard to follow through with actions.
What are your throughts on setuation with V.?

[snowglobe]

@NotWendy,
You are spot on with my childhood fears. When I didn’t listen to my uBPDm she threatened to “sell me to gypsies”, disown me and so on. Being a firsthand witness to her affair, domestic abuse, effective alienation of another parent left me emotionally crippled. I know I would survive, but irrational fear of my uBPDh walking out is distorting my reality. How do I stop being afraid?

[formflier]

For you

Handle one thing at a time with V. 

He called you... .handle that... and only that in a particular phone call.

Even better, don't try to resolve V's issue in the phone call.  "Hey V, let me get this straight.  I want to make sure I understand what you are asking, then I will have to give it some thought."

"Ok... it seems we agree I understand your question... .I'll give this some thought and get back to you tomorrow on it."

Slow things down.  Clarify.  One thing at a time.

How does this sound?

FF

[Notwendy]

It was working with a sponsor in the 12 step groups that helped me deal with fear ( and other things)

I have read posts where others didn't find these groups to be helpful. I think you have to work with them. The original Blue Book was written in a different era. Some of the language doesn't quite resonate with me.  However, my group is diverse- there are religious people, people of different religions, atheists, people in relationships ( heterosexual and same sex), single people, divorced people and all ages who have taken the material and worked at it.

Attending meetings is one part, but the part that made a lot of difference for me was working with a sponsor. She really turned the mirror on my stuff and held my feet to the fire. It wasn't comfortable. There were times I was irritated by the process. But then slowly the FOG started to lift.

When the MC first suggested the groups, I was baffled. Alcohol or drugs are not an issue in my relationship. I was afraid to go to the meetings. I didn't know if I would have anything in common with the people there, but we all have some things in common. There were some very wise people there ( rarely does anyone like everyone in a group).

I had also had counseling to deal with the issues I was raised with and facing in a relationship but the groups made a difference for me.

[snowglobe]

@formflier and @notwendy
I’ve gotten accustomed to suppressing my feelings so good, that I barely felt anything at all. It wasn’t until I met my uBPDh that I allowed myself to feel, and I through myself into these relationships with a full force. My uBPDh is without a doubt a very business savvy and intelligent person, capable of many great things. I made it my life’s mission to help him stand up straight and support him, when he wanted impulsively end good things, that were going for him. I’m very proud of his achievements. Somehow in all this process, I’ve lost a sight of myself. It isn’t just him that I’m looking after, and trying to please and stabilize. I have two children, One type A personality overachiever, another with speacial needs. In the midst of the daily splitting struggle, raising the family and my degree I feel overwhelmed. I caught myself thinking several times this week about my bio dad. Retired doctor living in US, who I undoubtedly wanted to impress all my life. Someone, who couldn’t love me after things went sour with my iBPDmother, it was easier to erase me, then deal with all the pain that I reminded him off. I thought about booking a ticket and flying out to see him. To talk to him, in A faint hope of repairing what is broken inside. Did speaking to your foo give you any relief?
I want to stop looking for this “father figure” who will love me unconditionally, as my dad is still alive.

[snowglobe]

@formflier, V. Called me again today to consult about his kid, as I’m in the process of finishing my degree that is related to the question. It was an excuse to test the waters, and I don’t have the energy to make things complicated. I’m slowly coming to realization that this triangle is not as it seems. Perhaps by uBPDh has been using V. as a scapegoat, so he could take a break. Instead, I’ve been chasing after him, constantly offering the ways to support him. I have this huge issue on my part, I can’t provide limited amount of support. I’m either all in, ready and willing to do all it takes to make my uBPDh’s life easier, or I’m out. I can’t seem to find the middle ground. When I continuesly invest my life’s resources into our relationship, but all I get is profanities and rejection in return, I can’t find the strength to interact with him, as if nothing is happening. I want to retreat.

[Notwendy]

Talking to anyone connected with my BPD mother brings no relief. If they are still in her circle they are enmeshed and tell me how wonderful she is ( whether they think so or not)

I know I idealized my father but he was a human with great qualities and weaknesses like any other human.

Talking to your father might give you closure- you'd see the real person - not the idealized person.

[snowglobe]

We are attending one of the important events together, with our children, he is splitting on me so bad, that all I see is his back turned to me or curt “do you see the kids”? I’m drawing in every ounce of my strength to rationalize and keep a half smile going for the sake of not making a spectacle of myself and not frighten the kids. The more I try to juice for him, MagSafe him, interact with him, the more he splits. If I don’t, he is always telling me that we “different people and need to divorce”. We have a family vacation planned in two weeks for s10 birthday to Disneyland. I am so defeated. I don’t know how to fix this setuation and make the vacation normal for the children. He gets to keep his face, by ignoring me and giving me completely silent treatment. Few nights ago s10 asked him why he is angry with me and isn’t talking. He replied that there is no reason. S10 was dismayed, he said “dad, it’s so weird, people get mad when something happens”. I’m so angry, hurt and frustrated. How do I stop contributing to this behaviour?

[Notwendy]

The ST feels crazymaking.

I had to just learn to ignore it. I recall a family weekend where my H spoke normally to the kids and not to me at all.

This also tended to happen at events like you described, and family vacations. I don't know why. Maybe being in the situation was a trigger.

I recall long car rides with him not speaking to me.

I learned to ignore it. It's a form of control and to some sources, a form of verbal abuse.

You can't make someone speak to you. If he chooses to not speak on the Disney trip- that is his choice. You may not be able to "make the trip normal" by your idea of normal.

But what a chance to make this wonderful for the kids. One way to manage a long trip without him talking to you is headphones. Listen to music, bring a book, occupy yourself. Bring toys and crayons and books for the kids to read. Books on tape are fun- you can all listen together. Daddy can stew if he wants or join in.

You won't be talking on rides. Have something to do for the long lines- small games, coloring books. Think about this- if you were alone with the kids at Disney- it would still be amazing because it is an amazing and fun place. Do not let his moods rain on your parade.

[formflier]

 The more I try to juice for him, MagSafe him, interact with him, the more he splits. If I don’t, he is always telling me that we “different people and need to divorce”. We have a family vacation planned in two weeks for s10 birthday to Disneyland. I am so defeated. I don’t know how to fix this setuation and make the vacation normal for the children.  

There is a lot here.

I would advise stopping whatever "juicing for him is".  Can you do something for you and your family.  Let him do... what he does.  Let him fix... what he does.

When he says you are two different people and need to divorce... you can agree that you are different people and let him know you will be sad if he chooses to divorce.  Nothing else needs to be said... .IMO.

Let your husband prepare himself for Disney... the important thing is you and your kids are ready... .you hubby will be... whatever he is.


I know this is not easy stuff... .but trust me... .there is an element of relaxation... when you let your hubby be your hubby.  For both of you.


FF

[snowglobe]

@formflier,
Thank you so much for your words, I will try to allow things to unfold as the will naturally. I’m semi- ready for the trip. When uBPDh splits on minute to minute basis it’s hard to know which way is up. Ironically enough we are a perfect match, pwBPD, incapable of real intimacy, brilliant but extremely impulve and irritable and deeply emotionally disturbed codependent, always ready to save the day. In one of the lessons I’ve learnt that it’s impossible to have real intimacy when it’s just one person working on it. That fairly accurately describes me being in a relationships with ... .me... or a  character that I invented. Wherever this road may lead, it’s impossible to keep these relationships running long term if he wants to leave

[formflier]

 When uBPDh splits on minute to minute basis it’s hard to know which way is up.  

Tell me more about this.  What does this actually look and sound like.

If you can give me some details on he said... she said.

Also... trip prep.  It's more than "letting things happen as they will... ."  I do think you should be deliberate about prepping for a good trip.

I do think you should directly ask your hubby what you can do to help him prep... .ask how he is doing prepping... .etc etc.

The key is to prep and have a good trip.  If BPDish stuff pops up... .don't let it further derail things... .as much as is up to you.

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure what you mean by prepping for the trip. I can share what I do. Clothing- both for warm and cold weather as it can vary. Bathing suits and sunscreen- and whatever the kids like - such as swim goggles, small pool toys. If you are driving ,you can bring the bigger toys- floaties, etc.

Things to entertain them on the trip and waiting for rides. Snacks and juice boxes for the trip ( don't know if they allow them in the park). Things you may need.

Your Hubby can pack himself- he's an adult. If he forgets something there are stores in Florida.

For you- some good books, and headphones and music for the ST times if they happen.

I don't know what you mean by juicing and mag safe? Magnesium supplements? Those are calming. But he is an adult and can manage his own diet and supplements too. For sanity, I'd probably be packing these on the trip to be sure you have them.