What would you advise me to do?

[EdR]

Hi there!

I decided to post in the 'saving a relationship' section now. I recently posted my own thread in the 'conflicted' section, because I felt (and still feel) ... .well... .conflicted. You can read some of it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=315639.0

I am not in a true 'wife-husband'/'girlfriend-boyfriend' relationship, but we were very good friends. Probably even more than that. I deeply care for her and the 'high' lasted quite some time (she saw me like a hero or something). After a really weird year of 'painting me black', the 'high' returned temporarily. But she suddenly gave me the Silent Treatment again over absolutely nothing.
The typical BPD traits were there, but I still didn't (and don't) want to label someone too quickly, even though I have some experience with BPD. So sometimes I still keep trying my very best to understand her behaviour and make up excuses for her.

Some of these excuses are:
-) she's still in her early twenties, so I might be looking at some late-puberty issues
-) she always was HIGHLY influenced by her 'two mean friends'. She almost can't seem to function well without them. But although she chose to ignore their opinion regarding our friendship for the first two years, she suddenly started painting me black in the third year. So her rollercoaster behaviour could be her switching between her true feelings/opinions and the opinions of her friends.

After her latest Silent Treatment I sent her two messages asking 'why?'. But I have been No Contact for over two weeks now.
Unfortunately, her Silent Treatment is only showing me how much I miss her. I even feel lonely. Despite her treating me like crap. And that's why I am posting here now... .

Some other important information on the matter:
-) she lives with her parents and I recently saw her brother and her father. They did NOT greet me anymore and her father looked at me like I was some kind of criminal? So personally I don't think visiting/calling her would be a great idea. And I even feel a little text would be walking on eggshells! I am afraid that every form of contact could be abused and transformed in something like 'he is stalking me'. Which is far from the truth, but well... .that's the 'painting black' I guess... .
-) she doesn't really have many 'new' friends, so her connection to her old 'mean girl'-group seems to be strengthening. I have learned from mutual friends that 'her story about me' in that group has become purely 'black and white' and full of lies and twisted truths. At least that was the case last year. Our mutual friends have now been pushed away by her... .and never hear anything at all about me anymore
-) Every time I tried to confront her with her behaviour, she basically only got worse and went haywire... .

I know this may all sound ridiculous. Especially to some of you who have kids with their partner, are married etc. etc... I'm sorry... .
But I have never experienced such a friendship (well... .the last time was with an eventually confirmed pwBPD) and I miss her.

How could I save this friendship? Or at least remain connected in one way or another? What are your opinions on the matter?

Should I just remain strong and wait for something obvious like her birthday (end of the year)? That really sounds like the best option... .but emotionally I would like to reach out sooner... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi EdR,

I'm sorry that you are left feeling so confused in your relationship. It's hard to understand why pwBPD just come in and out of our lives without much explanation.

Has your friend told you she does not want you to contact her anymore? Or are you just unsure if contact would be misinterpreted? Are you hoping your friendship will become romantic?

As for her family and friends, it sounds like you may be involved in a Karpman Drama Triangle . This is a situation where the pwBPD is the victim and often vacilates between making one party the rescuer and the other party the persecutor. These roles are frequently switched up depending on the needs of hte pwBPD. Learning how to remove yourself from this dynamic may help you find some stability when/if she contact you again

[EdR]

Thank you Tattered Heart. I will most certainly look into the Karpman drama triangle.

To answer your questions:
-) I do really care a lot about her, but I'd prefer our friendship/'relationship' to remain 'not romantic'. The BPD warning signals basically scare me to pursue 'further', because I have been hurt too much in the past by a pwBPD. However... .to be completely honest, without the warning signs my answer would have been a definitive 'yes'
-) She never told me 'not to contact her'. But I did learn the hard way that at the same time she DID tell her 'friends' exactly that. When I confronted her with her weird behaviour she would basically tell me the opposite. At one time she did tell me to be 'less personal' in my communication. But in the same e-mail she mentioned all kinds of personal stuff about herself. So I asked her to talk about it, because I didn't understand what she meant and explained she was telling personal stuff in a mail meant to be 'less personal'. But she refused.

To quote part of my story from the link I provided:

(... .) all of a sudden her behaviour changed dramatically. Her friends had quite the role in that, but I was painted black, I was suddenly the weird guy etc. etc.

When I asked her about it, she basically said nothing was the matter. When I asked for a conversation about this sudden change, she came with a lot of excuses. When I proposed to stop contact altogether for a while, she said this was absolutely not her intention.
I did not understand the situation AT ALL and asked to talk about it. A lot of excuses and when I finally confronted her with that she gave me the Silent Treatment.

It didn't matter whether I tried to fix things or did nothing. Things got worse and worse. Rumors spread. "I was stalking her, although she clearly stated to leave her alone" etc etc
However... .this was all a lie. When I noticed her buzzing like a bee around me again, I mailed her that my conclusion was absolutely no contact.
After months of Silent Treatment she sent me several e-mails saying this was not what she wanted. She didn't apologize, but in a way it felt like an apology.
However... I did not trust her yet so I didn't reach out again for a while. And rightly so, because I learned that she was spreading new rumours via her friends that I was AGAIN reaching out and stalking her... .

Long story short: after a few months I DID reach out again and wanted closure. However, she replied in a way which reminded me of her old self. She seemed to be normal again.

(... .)

So it is basically the standard rollercoaster ride :-(  And I really would like to know what kind of communication would be able to save (whatever is left of) this friendship/'relationship'.

[Tattered Heart]

I've read quite a few stories about pwBPD just disappearing for days on end from their loved ones lives. And then they just as quickly reappear as if nothing had changed. Oftentimes this is because of Fear of Engulfment . Other times it's because the pwBPD might be dealing with something personal of their own. Or, as you believe, it may be because the person is being negatively influenced by someone else. No matter what the cause, I'm sure it's hurtful and confusing.

How did you hear about the things she was saying to her friends? Is this information accurate? I have a personal boundary for myself in that if someone tells me they heard so and so say such and such about me I will not believe it until I speak to that person about it. I will try to address the situation directly with the one who is supposedly upset with me. I've learned that often times people who are relaying information will change the meaning or add context into it that is not there. But when confronting a person with BPD, it has to be done in a way that doesn't seem like it's attacking them. We have a work shop called Communicating: Listening and Being Heard that might help you.

As for her going no contact with you, these things just take time. Give her a little space and see how things play out. Try not to get involved in he said/she said with others about her as this information may be relayed back to her out of context and could exasperate the situation. Every now and then perhaps send a text or call that just says, "hey. how are you?" but don't do so excessively because that could cause her to withdraw further. Since things are fresh, you might wait a little longer to let everything cool off first.

[EdR]

Two of her 'outer circle' friends warned me. They didn't understand her behaviour and told me to tread carefully since I was painted black.

Those two friends were later pushed away by her and are now 'outside the loop'.

Thank you Tattered Heart! I will just do my best to remain NC for a while longer and send her a little message after a month or so.

[EdR]

Just something I wanted to add:

Some specialists (two who knew her) basically said the same thing. Their explanation was:

She really liked me and idealised me. Eventually those fee!ings developed in something more: she loved me. However, she knew these feelings were frowned upon by her friends and would therefore shake up her little world.  She then desperately tried to create distance between the two of us. But because she still liked me deep inside she would exhibit some sort of push-pull dynamic.

One of these specialists thought she was a pwBPD. But nonetheless... .I think that the fear of engulfment has indeed played a part here as well. I read the link: very interesting and it certainly rings true.

But I still think it is really hard to get my head around this. And on top of that: this (her feelings for me) is all just a theory. Would a person with strong feelings really behave in this way?
I know this might be caused by BPD traits, but it is just really hard to accept. :-(

Am I dealing here with someone who cares about me or just plain hates me? So actually she seems to hate me, because she cares about me... .

That still hurts and although it makes sense it still is awfully confusing for me as a NON... .

Any information on how to deal with fear of engulfment? I do know now that a pwBPD experiences these feelings far more intensely than  we would. How long would the typical pwBPD experience these feelings? Weeks? Months?

[EdR]

Well... .I think I messed up. I couldn't stand the Silent Treatment anymore, so I sent her a text (after almost 2,5 weeks).
She continued her ST and I basically told her I cannot deal with the ST and would really like her to communicate. Even if it's "I don't want to be in touch with you anymore".

I guess I won't be getting any reply... .

Maybe I am just not able to deal with BPD traits. I may very well be the caretaker, but I'm having great difficulties enduring stuff like her Silent Treatment. That messed up my previous experience with a pwBPD as well... .

I just read about 'JADE' and how you should refrain from that type of communication. Well... .I honestly don't know if I can do that... .When she accuses me falsely of something, I very much like to calmly try to convince her of the truth or even present 'evidence' showing my 'innocence'. I don't lose my temper, I give her every opportunity to talk about her point of view... .
But I now understand that that would still make her feel I'm invalidating her as a person.

So maybe it's just me... .I'm probably not even able to maintain a genuine friendship with someone with BPD traits. That sucks... .  :-(

[Meili]

A lot of this stuff is hard for most of us at first EdR. 

It is counter-intuitive to what we've been taught in life. But, that's the brilliant part, because we have been taught the wrong things, we can relearn and handle things differently.

Like you, I struggled with the desire to JADE. In fact, most of us do. It's what we've been taught to do. After a while, I realized that others are entitled to their opinions and I didn't have to agree with them, but I had to respect them.

Some other important realizations that go hand-in-hand with this are that the opinions of people change with their emotions (this is especially true with pwBPD) and that there was a reason that I was bothered so much by what others thought of me. (The latter is extremely important to look at.) Also, pwBPD tend to project onto others so that they don't have to deal with their own emotions.

Finally, someone once asked me if I would rather be right or be happy? That comes into play when facing a situation that would normally result in JADE'ing.

[EdR]

Thank you for your kind and wise words Meili.

It is indeed really counter-intuitive. And I really and genuinely thought I was communicating well, because I never really lost my temper and DID always give her the chance to talk about it from her perspective.

[Meili]

Those are really great starts to communicating well. Listening with empathy and not invalidating her feelings will go a lot further. When you talked about things from her perspective, did you do those?

[EdR]

Those are really great starts to communicating well. Listening with empathy and not invalidating her feelings will go a lot further. When you talked about things from her perspective, did you do those?

I tried on several occasions, but when we would get close to the true problem, she would bail one way or another...
Things like suddenly ending the conversation, saying things like 'never mind, things won't change anyway', start accusing me all over again, or desperately trying to avoid a real life conversation. The last time she said something like "I understand your point of view, but I do not know how to respond to (... .) "
Like she wanted and still wants to keep her own truth intact and fears any path which could lead her away from that.

The last "I understand" reply seemed to at least be positive.
But two weeks afterwards I just congratulated her with an achievement in sports and she gave me the ST from that point onward :-(

[Meili]

Being afraid to express what is actually going on inside of her is somewhat understandable. pwBPD tend to have intense feelings of shame and fears of rejection and abandonment. They seem to need to feel very safe and secure in order to make themselves that vulnerable, or fear something else even more.

[EdR]

So... .to wrap things up: She replied.Three days after my 'I cannot deal with ST' text.

She didn't reply directly to the text, but instead sent me an extremely concise reply by mail. Devoid of any emotion. Without any title.

Very much unlike her. She either replies within minutes or the same day or not at all. No emotion in a mail is unlike her as well.

I saw this once before and back then her parents basically wrote the mail for her. I guess it is safe to say this is the case now as well: she probably was raging in silence during her ST, but after my little text discussed it with her friends and parents. I guess they, seeing her rage/hurt/whatever eventually convinced her to cut off all contact definitively.

Yep, that's what it said. She wants to cut off all contact definitively. Nothing more. Nothing less. No explanation.

It hurts. I don't understand. But I do know I'm happy she replied. My text wasn't just about how I can't deal with the ST. I ended my text by saying: "please, this is confusing. At least let me know whether or not you truly want to cut off al contact this time." So, she gave me her answer.

I checked though... .she did not unfriend me on FB. Which I think is a little odd for "definitively cutting off all contact".
But although I am really hurting, I do at least know where I stand now.

I basically didn't want my final reply to be a negative one. So I just wished her all the best.

I feel terrible now... .Relieved, but terrible. I need a hug.

[Meili]

I know that it's hard, but try not to read too much into anything or speculate. Just accept what is at the moment as real. That's the thing though, it's real at this moment. What happens in the future could be different.

For now, what is important is that you take care of yourself. There are so many benefits to this strategy. It is a no-lose endeavor.

Are you doing anything to take care of you?

[EdR]

I know that it's hard, but try not to read too much into anything or speculate. Just accept what is at the moment as real. That's the thing though, it's real at this moment. What happens in the future could be different.

For now, what is important is that you take care of yourself. There are so many benefits to this strategy. It is a no-lose endeavor.

Are you doing anything to take care of you?

Well, I feel better... .calm in a way. Please note I have no agenda by 'trying to read anything' into the details of her last and final reply. It is just that after 3 years you basically know what feels a little off... .and you know some of the regular 'behind the scenes' action. ;-)  

I feel at ease and I am absolutely convinced I will respect her mail. I'm not mad or anything. This is the first time I ever see her saying/doing something unambigious since the first time she noticeably split black. So that's a relief in a way.
I just feel sad... .

There are still a few things crossing my mind though. I would really like to have a glimpse of what's going on inside her head. Does this obvious 'split back' mean that's she created some kind of monster? Or is she still able to think about me in a more realistic way? Will she still see all the good things I've done for her and that I cared for her? How I never raised my voice or called her names?
That's kind of important for me. NOT because of some hope she might come back or something. But just because I wouldn't want to be remembered in a bad way (since I really and genuinely haven't done any 'bad things' and went out of my way to help her the best I could). I know I cannot influence that. But that's something that crosses my mind... .

The other thing crossing my mind is: what about saying 'happy birthday' in December/January/February (I don't want to give personal details here :-P ) ? Would that be a violation of her wish? A simple 'congratulations' caused all this mess, so I am not sure.
But of course, the 'congratulations' was a way to reach out. A simple 'Happy Birthday' would just actually mean something like "you know... .I know we can't be friends, but I sure as hell don't hate you... .So what the hell... .Happy Birthday"

[Meili]

Have you checked out the link on Understanding your partner's behaviors for some insight into what might be going on? There is a section that explains splitting.

My experience has been that sometimes a pwBPD can remember the good, other times not. The memories seem to be attached to emotions and the emotions create the reality. So, depending on what emotion is in play at the moment, the reality follows.

[EdR]

Have you checked out the link on Understanding your partner's behaviors for some insight into what might be going on? There is a section that explains splitting.

My experience has been that sometimes a pwBPD can remember the good, other times not. The memories seem to be attached to emotions and the emotions create the reality. So, depending on what emotion is in play at the moment, the reality follows.

Yeah, I read that before, but that didn't give me the answer though... .

Splitting is basically a defense mechanism, which most of us know from childhood. So when 'daddy' didn't take your side, daddy became the 'bad guy'.
However, when 'mommy' calmly talked to you about the situation you changed your opinion again. And even if mommy didn't talk to you about it, you'd still at one point remember daddy loved you or at least did some great stuff as well. So that ended the 'bad guy' idea as well.

So, theoretically this must be similar for a pwBPD. But is it really? And to which extent?

[Meili]

My argument would be that in the case of a pwBPD, you are either split good or bad. There is no grey area. You're either all good or all bad.

This situation is a bit different from the child scenario that you outlined below. In that situation, dad is in a grey area.

Will your ex split you white again? It's possible. My dBPDexw did with me, but it was 10 years after the fact. I was an evil monster in her mind for that decade. She split me white, we started to get close, she got scared and now I'm black again. In our case, she could not remember any of the good we shared.

My uBPDexgf is the opposite. She remembers the good, but has split me black and the good has been twisted into something to support her image of me.

Each situation is unique. Each person with BPD traits falls on the spectrum somewhere and no two are the same.

I do get what you're saying about it being important to you though. I spent a lot of time there mentally. I had a need for my x to see some good in me or I felt I was no good.

Have you looked at why it is important to you to have her see the good? Outside of reconciliation I mean.

[EdR]

My argument would be that in the case of a pwBPD, you are either split good or bad. There is no grey area. You're either all good or all bad.

This situation is a bit different from the child scenario that you outlined below. In that situation, dad is in a grey area.

Will your ex split you white again? It's possible. My dBPDexw did with me, but it was 10 years after the fact. I was an evil monster in her mind for that decade. She split me white, we started to get close, she got scared and now I'm black again. In our case, she could not remember any of the good we shared.

My uBPDexgf is the opposite. She remembers the good, but has split me black and the good has been twisted into something to support her image of me.

Each situation is unique. Each person with BPD traits falls on the spectrum somewhere and no two are the same.

I do get what you're saying about it being important to you though. I spent a lot of time there mentally. I had a need for my x to see some good in me or I felt I was no good.

Have you looked at why it is important to you to have her see the good? Outside of reconciliation I mean.

Thank you for your examples Meili. I appreciate that. From what I've heard about her from her two 'normal' friends (who were pushed away later), she is more like your second girlfriend. My first encounter with a pwBPD was probably someone like your first one as well oddly enough... .

Well, I don't really think it needs explaining. It feels completely natural to me. I really cared for her.
And when I care about a possible brother/sister/daughter/whatever it would be similar: no matter what happens I will keep them in my heart and remember the good things. Maybe somewhere in a small dark little corner if things really got serious. But nonetheless, they would still be there. And I would really hope that feeling would be mutual. Regardless of the fact we might be living worlds apart and not be on speaking terms at all.

So I'm not really talking about reconcilation. It's a little more subtle and one-sided.

[Meili]

I get that. We all like validation and to know that our efforts are appreciated.

What would it mean to you if she didn't remember the good, or didn't remember them as good?

[EdR]

That would hurt. No doubt about it.

Why? idk... .a mix of things I guess. I actually typed quite a story explaining it, but deleted it afterwards :-P  . It all sounded way too psychological and BIG, whereas the basic emotions involved feel so simple... .A sense of injustice, a sense of emptiness, a sense of continued caring etc. etc.

Btw, what is your opinion on a simple 'happy birthday' violating her 'wish'? Would that be a violation?

[Meili]

She asked you for no contact, so it's best to respect her wishes.

[EdR]

Thank you. I think you are right.

It doesn't feel right to not wish her a happy birthday. But at the same time it feels worse when I'd disrespect her wish.

[Meili]

Wishing someone a happy birthday is a pretty common question around here. For me, it boils down to wanting to wish our ex's a happy birthday to let them know that we still care.

But, to ignore their wishes to have no contact shows just the opposite. It shows that we care more about our own feelings then we do about theirs.

[EdR]

Maybe I could like someone else's 'happy birthday' on FB by then... .:-p

Or randomly like her profile picture on her birthday. Although that sounds awfully 'stalkerish' (is that a word?) lool 

[Meili]

Uh, yeah, stalker is a word that comes to mind... .

What is the motivation behind wanting to tell her happy birthday?

[EdR]

Uh, yeah, stalker is a word that comes to mind... .

What is the motivation behind wanting to tell her happy birthday?

Thanks for the confirmation   

In all seriousness: Just showing that I care.

[Meili]

Do you think that she's forgotten that you care?

[EdR]

Do you think that she's forgotten that you care?

Well, now we're back at the 'split black' post.
That's why I mentioned both things (will she remember the good AND happy birthday in the same post). :-(

So yeah... .I am somewhat worried she might not see or remember  that anymore (or in a twisted way).

[Meili]

OK, let's play this out... .

1. She's split you black and you try to show her that you care by wishing her a happy birthday. How do you think that she will received it?

2. She's not split you black and you try to show her that you care by wishing her a happy birthday. Do you think that she would have forgotten that you care?