Struggling with "Validation"

[Depression = 72% of members]

My partner has (in my humble opinion) all the symptoms of BPD.  I'm certainly not qualified to make a psychological diagnosis, but anyway I'm going to proceed under the assumption that, if I apply the tools and skills discussed on the BPD sites, I may be able to make things better for both of us.

One thing I've been struggling with is validation. Clearly, it's something I'm often not successful at, which results in a lot of anger, which causes me to withdraw, which... .you get the picture.

I think I can manage the identification and acknowledgement of what she's feeling, though even that is not easy, because it's rare that she will directly communicate what she's feeling - usually the first thing that comes out is a criticism or attack - often aimed at me.  But then even when I get past that point, and begin to understand what she's feeling and acknowledge it, that's not enough.  She often has a rationale in her mind for WHY she's feeling that way, and wants me to validate that reason, and also wants me to validate the she is JUSTIFIED in feeling the way she feels, and furthermore, since she feels bad, the person who made her feel bad (often me) has done something WRONG.  That last part seems to be really essential.  The full story that's needed seems to be: "I see that you are hurt, X caused you to be hurt, anybody would be hurt by X (it's reasonable for you to be hurt), X is to blame for your hurt, X should apologize/suffer/be contrite for your hurt."  This gets harder and harder as it goes along, especially when X=me and I in fact don't agree with some of the elements of the story.  My perspective is usually more like, "I was going along normally, suddenly you are angry and hostile at me for no good reason, what the hell?".

I realize this is a complicated topic, and a complicated post.  How do I retain my own self-respect and honesty while meeting her needs?  It seems impossible.

Thanks

[nacnud]

My partner has (in my humble opinion) all the symptoms of BPD.  I'm certainly not qualified to make a psychological diagnosis, but anyway I'm going to proceed under the assumption that, if I apply the tools and skills discussed on the BPD sites, I may be able to make things better for both of us.

One thing I've been struggling with is validation. Clearly, it's something I'm often not successful at, which results in a lot of anger, which causes me to withdraw, which... .you get the picture.

I think I can manage the identification and acknowledgement of what she's feeling, though even that is not easy, because it's rare that she will directly communicate what she's feeling - usually the first thing that comes out is a criticism or attack - often aimed at me.  But then even when I get past that point, and begin to understand what she's feeling and acknowledge it, that's not enough.  She often has a rationale in her mind for WHY she's feeling that way, and wants me to validate that reason, and also wants me to validate the she is JUSTIFIED in feeling the way she feels, and furthermore, since she feels bad, the person who made her feel bad (often me) has done something WRONG.  That last part seems to be really essential.  The full story that's needed seems to be: "I see that you are hurt, X caused you to be hurt, anybody would be hurt by X (it's reasonable for you to be hurt), X is to blame for your hurt, X should apologize/suffer/be contrite for your hurt."  This gets harder and harder as it goes along, especially when X=me and I in fact don't agree with some of the elements of the story.  My perspective is usually more like, "I was going along normally, suddenly you are angry and hostile at me for no good reason, what the hell?".

I realize this is a complicated topic, and a complicated post.  How do I retain my own self-respect and honesty while meeting her needs?  It seems impossible.

Thanks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Validation can be tricky. Can you share an example of a conversation where you felt like you were validating but it didn't go well?

My H used to expect me to agree with every part of his dysregulation. For myself I realized that if we had gotten to the point where he was unwilling to accept my validation then I either validated the wrong thing or I validated too late. This caused him to escalate further and we got past a point of him being able to be reasonable. This lesson might help you a little: Stop Being Invalidating

One thing that MIGHT work is to get her to turn the conversation back to herself and off you. So instead of just validating, ask her questions that can get her to focus on herself.

As an example:

My H is upset about something that happened at work. I can tell that what he is mad about was actually his fault, but he is blaming his boss instead.

Husband: He just doesn't get it. He doesn't see that I need help. He just tells me to be more organized.
Me: How does it make you feel when he says that?
Husband: I want to yell at him for making me feel so worthless.
Me: If you yelled at him, how do you think it would turn out?
Husband: I'd probably get fired (He came up with his own answer.)
Me: You mentioned you felt worthless. What do you mean by that?
Husband: I can't do my job right. I don't know how to organize. I've tried. I just don't know how.
Me: I'm sorry. I know you've tried to do that. Can I help you with that in any way?
Husband: No. I just need to stop focusing so much on getting everything done at once.
Me: I get that. It can be overwhelming to have a huge list. Sometimes I feel frozen when I have so much to do.
Husband: Yeah. Me too.
Me: Is there a way to break it into smaller chunks?
Husband: (Comes up with a basic plan to organize)

The issue was that he felt like he can't do his job so he felt worthless. It really had nothing to with his boss. Or nothing to do with me. But a year ago, he would have gotten mad at me for not agreeing that yelling at his boss would be the correct thing to do. If you could share one of your conversations, we could check out where what's going on with the conversation.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, nacnud,

I think you've got a great question about validation. You say you're often not "successful" at it. I'm wondering,
 how are you defining success in this area--how do you measure whether you're successful?

But then even when I get past that point, and begin to understand what she's feeling and acknowledge it, that's not enough.  She often has a rationale in her mind for WHY she's feeling that way, and wants me to validate that reason, and also wants me to validate the she is JUSTIFIED in feeling the way she feels, and furthermore, since she feels bad, the person who made her feel bad (often me) has done something WRONG.

To me, in this situation, it sounds like you are being asked to validate the invalid. It isn't about validation, it is recruitment into allyship. Have you had a look at this information on the Karpman Drama Triangle? In cases like this, I think it is helpful to validate that the person has a feeling and a point of view and even a desire/expectation about me. I may also need to assert that while I care about and support them, I also hold a different point of view and may behave or think differently than they would like. One key for me is to be able to stay calm and centered myself. Triggering, Mindfulness, and the WiseMind has also been helpful to me in that regard.

I really love S.E.T. Support Empathy and Truth when I need to both validate and assert. Sometimes, these tools help calm things down. Sometimes, other people might still feel angry or disappointed or upset. That's okay. All I can do is live my values the best I can. I can't control how others feel.

I also like Tattered Heart's example. Gently guiding with questions that can help a person come up with solutions on their own can be a great way to go. I really like the questions in TH's dialogue, especially "Is there a way to... .?"

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, nacnud.

[nacnud]

You say you're often not "successful" at it [validation]. I'm wondering, how are you defining success in this area--how do you measure whether you're successful?

Quite simply, success would be my GF becoming calmer, comforted, or at least not becoming MORE agitated, upset, or angry.

To me, in this situation, it sounds like you are being asked to validate the invalid. It isn't about validation, it is recruitment into allyship. Have you had a look at this information on the Karpman Drama Triangle? In cases like this, I think it is helpful to validate that the person has a feeling and a point of view and even a desire/expectation about me.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

I may also need to assert that while I care about and support them, I also hold a different point of view and may behave or think differently than they would like.

Making any statement that I have a different view or opinion is considered by her to be "unsupportive," or "invalidating".  Always results in increased anger.  Never results in any improvement. Yes, I'm using absolutes - in this case I mean it quite literally.  I have never known her to react otherwise.

A statement that I may behave differently than she would like is interpreted as "I am choosing to hurt you."  This results in great pain, which results in anger directed at me.

I also like Tattered Heart's example. Gently guiding with questions that can help a person come up with solutions on their own can be a great way to go. I really like the questions in TH's dialogue, especially "Is there a way to... .?"

Hmmm... .maybe I could find a way to do this.  But I think you may be not understanding a) the intensity of the emotional reaction, and b) that the bad feelings are often centered directly on me.  Let me try to give an example, as TatteredHeart suggested:

GF wakes me in the middle of the night, she's crying
GF: My stomach hurts again
Me: Oh, I'm sorry, is there anything I can get for you?
GF: I probably have cancer.  I'm going to die and my last memories of you will be you kicking me to the curb.  (Referencing previous breakdowns when I have said I can't take it any more and want to break up.)
Me: ... .silent for a while... .trying to wake up, trying to calm myself, telling myself it's not about me, it's about her feeling bad... .
GF: Your silence hurts - I'd rather have you hit me than be silent
Me: I know it's been rough between us in the past and I know it's very painful for you when I have wanted to end things.
GF: But you choose to do it even though you know it hurts me.  And you never apologize for hurting me.
Me: I never intended to hurt you.  I'm sorry you were hurt.
GF: There you go again.  Denying responsibility for your actions.  I need you to say that you are sorry that YOU hurt me, not just that you are sorry I was hurt.
Me: I'm sorry that I hurt you.  I didn't want it to be like that.
GF: But you keep doing it over and over again.  You must take pleasure in hurting me.
Me: It's not something I do, it's a result of BOTH of us, and the way we are to each other.  Sometimes it gets to the point that I just feel that I can't take it any more.
GF: There you go making it all about yourself instead of looking at it from my perspective.  The fact is that you do the thing that you KNOW hurts me the most - you turn your back on me and walk out the door.  When I die the last thing I will remember is you turning your back on me.
etc... .

This goes on for some time, and it escalates, until she starts directly attacking my character, saying things like: "If you were a real man you would... ." or "There's a reason your previous marriages failed... ." and so on.

Finally, I stop talking, get out of bed, put my pants on, get my wallet and car keys, and leave the house (at 3 o'clock in the morning).  While I am making my exit she is raging at me.  I wind up sleeping in the car, because I have noplace else to go, even though it is my house.  Sigh... .



Net result: One more incident that turns out EXACTLY as the one thing she most fears - me leaving. 

[Tattered Heart]

Ok. I see what's happening. It looks like JADEing. It's not extensive but enough that for someone with BPD is it invalidating. Don't Be Invalidating and Don't JADE may help you a little. It's SO easy to begin to JADE. Because for most people hearing their reasoning and explanation of why they did what they did is acceptable. But for someone with BPD, it just doesn't work.

I'm going to do a little tweaking to your conversation just to give some examples of things that might help.

GF wakes me in the middle of the night, she's crying
GF: My stomach hurts again
Me: Oh, I'm sorry, is there anything I can get for you?
GF: I probably have cancer.  I'm going to die and my last memories of you will be you kicking me to the curb.  (Referencing previous breakdowns when I have said I can't take it any more and want to break up.)
Me: ... .silent for a while... .trying to wake up, trying to calm myself, telling myself it's not about me, it's about her feeling bad... .I hope you don't have cancer. I can imagine that it would be painful to think that I don't want to be with you.

GF: But you choose to do it even though you know it hurts me.  And you never apologize for hurting me.
Me: I never intended to hurt you. I'm sorry that you were I hurt you. (Sometimes just acknowledging what we did wrong helps. If you aren't sorry for hurting her, then don't apologize. There is a fine line between JADEing and admitting our own wrong in a situation.)

GF: There you go again.  Denying responsibility for your actions.  I need you to say that you are sorry that YOU hurt me, not just that you are sorry I was hurt. Are you sorry that she was hurt or sorry that you did hurt her? There is a difference. No judgment either way. Just curious.

Me: I'm sorry that I hurt you.  I didn't want it to be like that. JADEing

GF: But you keep doing it over and over again.  You must take pleasure in hurting me. This could be baiting a little. She is definitely starting to get worked up here.

Me: It's not something I do, it's a result of BOTH of us, and the way we are to each other.  Sometimes it gets to the point that I just feel that I can't take it any more.   JADEing, blaming, and in a way saying that what she fears could happen again. What if you added something like, "I know this has been painful for you. I hate that. It's important to me that we start thinking of our future together. Because I do want to be with you. How can we work through this to begin building trust again?"