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Author Topic: Is countering dysregulation a reasonable goal? (prep for Kid's visit stress)  (Read 672 times)
pearlsw
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"Be kind whenever possible, it is always possible"


« on: October 26, 2017, 05:08:22 AM »

My partner tends to dysregulate at some point when this 3 kids come for a visit. They live in another country with their mother, and visit about 3 times a year for a few weeks at a time. All things considered the kids are pretty nice and interesting if you get time with them one on one. Being with them as a group is…well, like being with 3 kids. Smiling (click to insert in post) There are big age gaps which also factors into things; they are now S12, D17, D21. Language (3 are spoken on a daily basis/I only know 2 of these 3 well) and culture and different values are also factors.

Before I recognized his BPD traits I used to try to talk with my partner ahead of the visits and set some plans together…Plans which he promptly drops as if we never discussed them.


Me: “You promise you won’t have the kids “reorganize” the kitchen and living room? That makes me feel uncomfortable and I can’t find things I need.”
Him: “Yes, of course not.”
Me: (later) “Oh, you just let your daughter totally reorganize the kitchen and living room, again?” Got it.

Me: “Can we set up daily communication between each other so I can know what is going on?
Him: “Sure! “
Him (later): “Oh, we totally changed the plans. You didn’t know?”

Me: “I thawed out something for dinner. We’ll eat at 6 pm after you and the kids get back from X activity.”
Him: “Oh. We were invited over to my brother’s house for dinner... .(afterthought) Want to come?”
Me: (Sigh.) “Okay. But when we go there you tend to ignore me the whole time/speak a language I don’t speak well and I get left out. I can be a sport about this for one evening but can you make a little effort in my direction too please?” (I have to have this conversation every single time. He never remembers/retains this.)

Me: “At meal time can we speak in either Language A or Lang.B, please?”
Him: “Sure!”
Mealtime: LanguageC, Lang.C, Lang.C.
Me: Nudges him under table to remind him at least to speak in Lang. A or Lang.B. because otherwise I feel ignored/left out/can't participate fully.
Him: (every time) “What are you doing?”  
Me: (later) “If I nudge you under the table it is about language stuff.  Okay?”
Him: (next time) “What are you doing?” (Has no clue each and every time.)

And so on.

I think he has this “object permanence” thing. He only recognizes what is in front of him. He also, admittedly, has a terrible memory with human things. Smiling (click to insert in post) (He has two master’s and a doctorate in engineering.) And he is also easily distracted. Squirrel! And he runs off in some other direction entirely. He is very easily influenced by others and loses himself. He gets overwhelmed because, although he loves his kids, he can’t handle a lot of noise or people. His “Happy Place” is working on his computer with me sitting near him and reminding him to eat food now and again.

Any ideas how to help manage or prevent dysregulation during this time? I’ve tried setting a bedtime with him so we have time to talk while they are here - this never works. I end up feeling reduced to being a maid at times. A couple of days of this I could suck up and deal with, when it goes on for weeks it gets to be too much…and can get much, much worse than I’ve described.

I am willing to alter/lower my expectations.
This will never feel “normal”/okay unless the visits were only 2-3 days. For the sake of the kids I never pressure him for shorter visits. I care that they have the best childhoods/most time with their dad possible and try to cook special things for them when possible. But I also don’t think it is healthy for him or our relationship, or their parenting, when he dysregulates. I am starting to, not unselfishly, feel more protective of his mental health/stability than anything.

I sometimes wish I could disappear entirely and have time to myself instead of being his support for these visits because I tend to end up getting verbally attacked/insulted at some point. I was against stepping away in the past because that didn’t seem “family-oriented” to me, but I don’t get strong familial feelings from this really after years of these repetitive struggles. It's mostly sacrifice. I try to put on my best happy face and do it out of obligation and trying to be the bigger person. I hate to give up and throw in the towel on anything or anyone, but it has just never gelled given the background issues (his nasty divorce/custody fight after an international child abduction by his also mentally unstable ex-wife., etc.). He of course prefers to keep me around (so he feels secure/has less work to do) and then by default ignores me. I can entertain myself, but I always feel awkward and not understood - like the odd one out, but I get over it. Me doing anything by myself also freaks him out, but he has compromised some over the years.

I do think he tries his best and would be open to suggestions. He would try, though likely fall short, but that is at least trying and I can live with that. Smiling (click to insert in post) Any suggestions? Does my goal of less dysregulation when his kids come even make sense or is that too much to hope for? Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 05:57:09 AM »

Hi Pearl,

I have read some of your posts and think you are a very strong person and are dealing with a difficult situation ( living in a country that is foreign to you and the marital issues).

One thing I noticed with this question is a focus on your partner and his emotions and managing his emotions. It is great to be supportive, but we can't manage someone else's emotions. We can use tools to communicate more effectively and not fuel the drama and conflict in our relationships but we can't manage someone else's feelings.

Dysregulations are uncomfortable to witness - but we can't change their ability to manage their feelings. The task isn't to manage theirs but to manage our own feelings of discomfort when they disregulate.

All families have their customs and family dynamics and people tend to revert into those dynamics when they get together. It's a natural pattern that unless someone works on, is not likely to change. My FOO has their patterns and so does my husbands. When we grow up in a family, we learn to navigate the patterns. As an outsider these patterns can seem irritating.

I know that I can not change these patterns- it is beyond me. My task when around family is to learn to manage me. How can I deal with my own discomfort, or irritation. It may take some self care- going out for a walk, or a cup of coffee to just take a moment for myself. Sometimes it is just one of us- me with my family, my H with his instead of always being together. I am pretty sure my FOO irritates him. My BPD mom isn't easy to be around sometimes- so I don't expect him to be there all the time.

Your partner and his children are in a long term relationship. He wants their visits to be good ones. When you get involved in regulating the visits somehow, a triangle is created. Saying don't speak one language can set things up for him bonding with his kids with that language against you. By setting up rules for the kitchen, the same thing happens.

How can you take care of you during these visits? If they want to speak one language at the table, then how can you manage your own feelings of being left out? You can have them all eat dinner with themselves while you do something else. One thing to consider is- instead of saying " don't speak language C" you could say "I will let you all eat together and speak whatever language you wish" while I will be doing something else. Yes, he may dysregulate when you say this but it is being up front and setting the boundary for the visit ahead of time and you are not sitting at the table while they rudely exclude you.

So his kids reorganize the kitchen no matter what you say. How can you plan for this ahead of time? One idea is to take some things you need and put them in a box in your room so you can find them. If you need to duplicate some kitchen items like your favorite spices, then have some for yourself, and some for the visits. Put your personal items away somewhere so they don't go through them and you know where they are.

Engage the kids. Maybe invite them to go to the store with you, or for an ice cream treat. They may say yes or no, but instead of them being "his " kids, they could also form a step mother relationship with you. If their own mother is dysfunctional they may like the attention. They may even turn to you for advice about things- school, dating, etc, one day, if they don't feel they can ask their mother. This isn't to replace their mother but to be a supportive person in their lives. If their own parents are difficult sometimes with you, imagine how it is to be a child of these parents. The kids may enjoy doing something from your culture- cooking something, listening to music. They may also completely resist this, but hold out your hand to them anyway.

Think of ways you can make this visit better for you and how to manage your feelings during the challenges and also to not become involved in a triangle with him and his children.

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flourdust
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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 08:40:33 AM »

Pearlsw, what do you mean by dysregulation in this case? I think of that as reverting to an uncontrolled emotional state -- it's typically used here to describe explosive behaviors caused by acting out those emotions, though dysregulation can also mean withdrawal behaviors due to uncontrolled emotions -- silent treatment, etc.

Most of what you're describing seems to boil down to one lesson learned -- the visits feel kind of chaotic and out of control to you, so you ask your husband to help control them, and he can't do that.

Since you know he can't make you feel more comfortable with these visits, what can you do to make yourself more comfortable? Can you let go of the desire for control?

The kitchen gets messy, er, "reorganized" -- you can ask the kids yourself not to do that or you can just let it happen and fix it later. (If the kids were smaller, I guarantee the messes would be much worse!)

Plans change, you feel left out -- well, just let it all go and ride with it. Don't try to be responsible for the success of the visit, and let them do what they're going to do. Participate if you want, or go do your own thing if you'd rather.

Quick story -- my wife invited a bunch of her friends over for Sunday dinner. It was a kind of passive-aggressive move, as she didn't consult with me at all beforehand. Normally, I'm the chief cook, host, cleaner, etc. My normal response would have been to spring into action - cleaning the house, menu planning, cooking, hosting these strangers. And I would have been upset about feeling obligated to do this. Instead ... .I let it go. It was her party; I just attended as a guest. I didn't try to make it a success. I squelched my concern that they would see a messy house. I did not make it my problem.
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pearlsw
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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 08:57:32 AM »

Hi notwendy,

Thank you so much for your thoughts and suggestions. I see your point! Smiling (click to insert in post) That's fair.

Just to be clear, and this has a lot of parts I didn't fit into that already long post, I do not try to control which languages are spoken. I completely understand why they all tend to default to Lang. C. (I am from a family where 2 languages are spoken (Lang A and Lang D) that people understand to one degree or another, and I teach languages now so I am cool with multiple languages happening simultaneously.) I am aware of everyone's language levels and comfort issues. I never try to control which language the kids use; I do ask that my husband make an effort to speak in Language A or B when I am present and at meal time since he insists on having these meals and they take a lot of time. Smiling (click to insert in post)  It is like having to suddenly run a restaurant with a too small fridge and not enough storage space - Europe! His other family members used to pressure him on this because they felt sorry for me and found it to be rude how he was handling it. Not much changed in effect though.  

What I am not cool with is having problem-solving discussions with my husband for a month in advance of each visit that never amount to any reliable changes. That drives me a bit nuts. It is like pushing a boulder up the same hill over and over and it just rolls back down and crushes me.

My disappointment comes when I spend time cooking something nice, then we all sit down, then they only speak to each other. But that I let go too. If the food was good and if my taste buds are happy we can be happy together! I don't mind what the kids do actually, it is my husband not being able to be conscious and be a connection maker that is the hard part - but I am understanding about that too. He says clearly, and I believe him, that he "is incapable of multi-tasking". They are kids and I don't expect them to be conversationalists necessarily though I have had great one on one conversations with all of them.

I have managed to politely get out of most of the big sit down breakfasts so it is not two big/long sit down meals a day with me doing all the prep/clean up and it taking giant blocks of time. I prefer to make a quick sandwich and go on with my day they while like to set the whole table, put out all the food from the fridge (and not put it back of course), make a very big production of it - cultural differences. Not my thing, but fine.

The meal time is always unpredictable because I don't usually have any idea what is going on with them because of language and because as my husband explains their mother trained them to not talk about many topics. They are a whirlwind of moods and hunger by the time we sit down to eat. I can't ever tell what is really going on. At the table the little one eats as he likes, the sisters gripe at him for how much he eats, he gets mad, they insult each other, he runs off the minute he is done eating, my husband says nothing about this. They all sometimes fight at the table, I've seen the big one frighteningly stand up and smack the little one across the table, then there is more yelling, screaming, crying, and I don't know why/can't help. I have the personality of a monk. I am one of three kids and thought I wouldn't mind but it is too much noise/chaos/fighting/anger for me at times. My husband and his ex have a lot of differences in their parenting goals so... .those issues come up too and those discussions (usually intense ones about religion can set all of them off to screaming, fighting, threats, insults, etc.)

It is pure chaos at times and not always comprehensible. I have little to no way to escape - and the ways I do have do not make me feel very good and probably only make things worse. It is a lot of "d--ned if you do, d--ned if you don't."

When we are alone my husband can barely stay in Lang. B with me and tends to default to Lang. A although I've begged him millions of times to use Lang. B with me. I get it. He is not gonna stay in a language that I speak well and I don't have the money to learn Lang C and after hearing so much fighting in this language I am not compelled to work on it anymore at this time. It has unfortunately lost some of the beauty it once held for me.

I tend to finish my food and then start quietly cleaning the kitchen early if I feel terribly uncomfortable.

I am bringing this up here after 5 years of threats, silent treatment, mistreatment, humiliation, violation of promises/boundaries/values and frankly killing of my dreams by my husband in terms of family. The list of insults he has made to me just over this term and the word "home" have... .drained all meaning out of those words for me.

The last time the kids were here my h was so wiped out by the two younger ones fighting for a few days and not being able to resolve their issues that it was me who took them out for ice cream and helped them laugh and joke their way to being friends again while my h hide in bed under the blankets totally defeated after yelling/begging/pleading with them to get along. Under the circsumstances with his ex he hasn't had a fair chance to parent or learn how to parent after divorce. I feel for him. I agree it can be better to engage but these people are all a bit too dramatic for me on a daily basis for weeks at a time. I want less drama! Smiling (click to insert in post)

I was originally excited to have his kid's be a part of our lives. We actually fought for custody for all of them years ago and their mother (who kidnapped them) won in court which was a total shock... .that took a huge toll on all. My h and I were together 2 years before I even met the kids because they had been kidnapped. (I thought I might never meet them at first. He wasn't even sure he'd ever see them again. That is how far that all got.) It was, to say the least, awkward when they came into our lives. They don't even believe they were kidnapped or were in a war zone. Later the mom was reported for physically abusing the little one, and had to be monitored by the authorities, but they all bury that now it seems. So, we all live in different realities. Smiling (click to insert in post)

And, to be honest, I have done/given a lot to all of their lives (at great sacrifice and loss to my own goals and dreams) and I just... .don't have a lot left to give beyond the basics. I'm nice and happy to help them (we don't see them so often and they grow up/change so fast) but I prefer (for now at least) to stand on the sidelines like their aunts and uncles  and maybe one step back behind that. I want happiness in my life. They all get theirs and haven't made a single sacrifice for me - neither them or my husband. It is what it is, I don't want to dwell on that, but I don't want to throw a lot more energy at their lives at completely my expense as hard as it for me to say that. I need to be at least a little selfish and take care of me at this point. They've all burned me out a bit... .and my life is on life support.  

I am not trying to control him regulating or not. I am hoping to do what I can in terms of structure and support if I am here for their visit but I have to be honest that I am not thrilled and not 100% up for these endless sacrifices and all of their drama.

My biggest concern now is that I am afraid of how my partner acts when the kids are here. He is a totally different person - it wipes him out and he falls apart. He is an introvert and he has no time to recharge with all three plus me wanting things from him. (I am at least aware of this.) I am afraid of how within a few days of them visiting he gets angry, no matter how hard I work to make things nice for all of them, and threatens to divorce me and shames and humiliates me in front of them by the way he speaks to me. (I never even saw my own parents argue so I can't stand this. At all. And it will never be okay with me.) He tells me such crazy things such as "he loves me more than them" (which I am not comfortable with) or how he only loves them, etc., etc.

I don't want to control my partner, I just want to get through a visit without him falling apart and bringing my life crashing down with it. If possible. If he is gonna fall apart every time I want it to be okay for me to be lying on a beach somewhere and they can all drive each other nuts/love each other/do their thing. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thank you, I will keep rereading your and anyone's advice/tips! It is so much to get into a single post for all of us! I am so sorry it is so complicated!
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pearlsw
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"Be kind whenever possible, it is always possible"


« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 09:08:52 AM »

By reorganize I mean he lets the kids move the entire kitchen and living room. Imagine all of your containers, canned goods, utensils, pots and pans, papers, etc. moved to a new spot. He lets them do things like this because it is an "activity" for them when he doesn't feel like taking them out anywhere and they won't go outside on their own.

I have the kitchen organized so I can cook in it. If I go to cook but can't find a pot holder that isn't where it was yesterday and something is burning now I am in a real pinch. It goes like this from item to item. They break and throw things out without telling me. My husband doesn't do much in the kitchen so it is all me. I like things to be easy, and smooth so it is less hectic when I am cooking. It is a lot of stress for me to produce good meals in a too small kitchen so if I can't find one thing I need in a jam, okay, but a few of those, time after time and then I am stressed and since I am not allowed to have or show any emotions/stress I have to stuff it and be Mary Poppins. I could do this for 3 days, but not for 3 weeks. And they have no sense of food preservation, just stick open cans of tuna in the fridge, don't put stuff in containers, leave things that should be refrigerated out on counters, etc.

I see what you are saying. Under these circumstances I never do anything right. If I back off, and seem not to help enough, my husband gets angry... .and then comes his wrath. Threats of divorce, being very mean, insulting me, treating me like a child, depriving me of food, etc.

Being left out doesn't bother me so much. I actually enjoy it now when they make plans for the day and I get to be home alone and not hear them all fighting. I make dinner, I'm in a nice mood from having had time alone, they can be mad or not mad - I'm out of it.

The hard part for me is no matter how many successes you have, and I look for them, they can all be taken away from a small mistake in an instant and then my husband unleashes WWIII on me. I'm not trying to control him, just head things off, well, that is what I tried to do in the past, by making plans and preparing ahead of time.

I get that this stuff would not be easy even if he was a non but with his BPD traits, ay, ay, ay! Is this point hopeless?
 Should I just mentally prepare for it to not go well and him to threaten me as usual because he can't control his emotions when the stress gets too high? I guess that *is* my life! I hope there is a beach somewhere with my name on it! Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Tattered Heart
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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 10:08:12 AM »

It sounds like things get really crazy. I can imagine having 3 kids in the house just sends everything into a tailspin. You also have a lot more tools under your belt than you did in previous years. You have been working on communicating differently, validating more, etc. You've also seen what skills work and don't work well with him. Continue to use those things. You have the skills. You just might have to up the game a little more while the kids are there.

It also sounds like schedules get hectic. Instead of planning things out days ahead or if things do get scheduled ahead of time, could you still do a daily run down of the schedule with your partner? Or do a twice daily check in just to see if anything has changed? If anything this will relieve your stress of feeling like you're not being told about activities.

Secondly, it's important that you protect your own space. For instance if he sends the kids in to rearrange the kitchen, nip that in the bud. Tell the kids, "Thanks for offering to help but I don't need the kitchen rearranged" and then send them to another activity.

At dinner, if they begin to talk in a language that you are not as fluent in or do not understand, speak up. Perhaps you could say something simple like, "I want to enjoy the conversation with you guys. Can you please speak in Language A?"

As for the set bedtime, instead of planning it way ahead of time with your partner, what about you begin talking about an early bedtime a few hours before bed instead. This would allow some schedule leeway but if you talk about it later in the day your partner may be starting to get tired of activity and be more open to an earlier bedtime. You could even preface with something like "It's been a busy day. It's important to me that we get to connect and debrief after the day. How about we head to bed at 9pm so we can have some time together, just the 2 of us?" And go from there.
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pearlsw
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"Be kind whenever possible, it is always possible"


« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 11:04:02 AM »

Hey everyone, thanks so much! flourdust and Notwendy I'm back in from a bike ride now and have more time to read and reflect and find hope in all you are saying/reminding me of! Also, yes, Tattered Heart, good point! This is my first kid's visit since I first came the boards... .hopefully the new tools will help. God help me! Smiling (click to insert in post)  I'll write more in the next days... .as I have more time to reflect and rebuild my hope on this loaded/painful/scary topic.
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 11:15:39 AM »

Sadly- for the kids- they are being raised by disordered parents - their mom and your H and so they don't understand boundaries ( your stuff) or are raised to think they don't matter. Also they know their father won't enforce them. Kids tend to push boundaries- and need parents to maintain control while they develop self control. If a parent doesn't have this - it can be chaotic.

When I said control - think of that in the broad sense- manage. How do you manage the unmanageable? Your H is going to want to be seen as the cool fun dad and not a disciplinarian. He may not be able to be. As step mom the kids may not want to listen to your rules.

At this point it may help to pick one or two things to enforce. It's hard to change everything at once. To me the most irritating one is disrupting the kitchen and expecting you to cook. I would say- ahead of time - the kitchen is off limits. The consequences - if you mess up my kitchen I will not cook. Then if they do it- and your H does not enforce your boundary- they can figure out their own meal. If you continue to cook for them then they don't face any consequences for their actions.
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 11:25:17 AM »

Hi Pearl, wow, that's a handful, and then some.  I remember the last visit of his kids, you didn't say much about it, and now I know why it was a can of worms you didn't want to open!  But thanks for sharing -- it sounds incredibly stressful.  I know how much progress you and H have made in the last couple of months, and I can certainly understand if you might be feeling anxious about losing those good times.

I liked Notwendy's advice to engage the kids.  If your husband is a technical guy and overwhelmed with this sudden relationship invasion, there is absolutely no way he will ever be the orchestra conductor for all of those relationships.  Forget BPD, just being a guy with a technical Ph.D. is a good indicator that this is not where his strength lies.  D21 and D17 especially are old enough to be responsible for having adult relationships.  Go direct.  Do not rely on your husband at all.  Can you involve D17 and D21 in meal planning and prep?  If you can't engage both, is one of them a more likely "target" for a productive relationship with you?  It seems like the kitchen and meals are the hub of everything -- stress as well as opportunities.  Can you teach them any favorite recipes?  Can you develop traditions with them?  Can one or both of them become your "partners in crime" in the kitchen?  Perhaps one way to encourage participating is on the 2nd or 3rd day of the visit, give them the option of two dinners -- one that is super easy for you to prepare alone, and one that is fancier and you think they'd really like, but you will need help in the kitchen.  It seems like there's an opportunity for a little boundary setting here -- you can define how much effort you're comfortable putting in given the lack of help, disruption of your kitchen, and the fact that you're ignored at meals.  If you give so much that you resent it or it sucks the life out of you, in the end, it doesn't do anyone any good.  If you can engage them in helping out and rowing in the same direction as you, then that will help steer things towards your goal of a home life that matches your family values.

It sounds incredibly frustrating to plan heavily and then have those plans go out the window.  Perhaps go for a different kind of planning this time.  Boundaries planning of your own.  Think carefully about what values you want to defend, the boundaries, and the consequences.  As you know, planning all these things in advance, and thinking them through, is a big help.  Don't expect nirvana on this visit -- pick a few of the most important things you'd like to improve. 

You are a wonderful person for caring for all of these people in your home, when you are giving so much and not receiving.  I hope you have as good a visit as possible!

WW
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