CRAZY TRIANGLE

[needhelp!]

I am VERY sure that my husband had BPD from much information that I have read.  I am in a bible study group that my husband leads.  My best girlfriend has decided she wants my husband so she decided to join the bible study.   She doesn't know that he has BPD.  He can put on a good front but behind the scenes... .whew!    I am sure that he propositioned her, just to keep her around for a safety net.  So much for Bible Study.  How do I extricate myself from this situation so that we can return to a more healthy relationship.  If I ask him to leave the Bible Study, he will think I am trying to exercise CONTROL over him and He will be all the more determined to stay.  Where do I go from here?  HELP!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi needhelp!

Welcome

I'm very sorry that you are experiencing doubt and going through a difficult time in your marriage. Can you share a little more about what's going on?

Did your best friend tell you she wants your H? If not, how do you know that is the case?

Did you hear him proposition her?

Leave Town!

Do you think this is the answer for what you're going through?

[isilme]

To be honest, about 10 years back I had this issue and it almost drove me literally crazy and into self harm.  H liked/needed the attention from other people, usually women, for his self esteem.  I was always there for all other needs, but that new, fresh, you're exciting feeling that comes from meeting someone new was kinda like a drug for him I think.  For a long time I figured I as just insecure, I was just a horrible jealous person and nothing was "really" wrong.  And often, likely due to the BPD, these flirtations never lasted terribly long.  Also, I'd usually end up meeting the girls in question, and I feel that meeting me for real, and seeing a more accurate snapshot of our lives, put the lie to any comments he may have made about me to excuse his interactions with them.  Essentially, it seemed to be "she's so nice, this is wrong."

It got very bad, and finally, I had to make it clear the emotional and potential other cheating was NOT acceptable, and if he would not stop, I'd rather leave and be alone than stay and be second (or third) fiddle.  It was an ugly time, we fought daily, made up, fought.  I was depressed and stopped eating, borderline suicidal even, and could not sleep. 

Strangely, me losing weight from the depression, and getting a new job, and a check I did not know was coming from my old job that let me buy my own car, snapped him out of it.  He realized I think that yes, Isilme might actually leave.  She can do it, all that is keeping her here is some hope of our relationship getting better.

I am not saying I made hollow threats or ultimatums.  I don't believe in ultimatums - I see them as a more manipulative "I will make a threat but not really intended to go through with it" kinda of a statement.  I stated my conditions for staying or leaving, and then made plans to leave while hoping to stay. 

Anyway, something changed.  He seemed to rededicate himself to me, to us.  He started working full time.  He bought a house.  He graduated college - 17 years after he started, dropped out and had to restart, but he did it.  He finally proposed.  And we got married, and I've not had any of those issues in years. 

So - needhelp - here are a few questions:

1 - is your relationship open?  Are you accepting of your husband dating others?
2 - why would your best female friend think it's okay to move in on your husband?
3 - have you spoken to either of them about this?
4 - what is the outcome you want?  Stay married, committed to each other? Stay married, both be free to see others? Other?
5 - how long have you been married? has this happend before?

[needhelp!]

We have been married for just a few years.  Yes I would like to stay married.  My best girl friend has always been a little envious of the things I do. I wasn't open to each of us dating others.  My husband seem to panic when my sister died a couple of years ago. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO ME IF SOMETHING HAPPENED TO YOU, he said.  And that is when this little 'love bombing' started to take place with the 2 of them. 

Could this be a combination of BPD and NPD?  Everyday upon reading the Stop Walking on Eggshells book, i notice he acts just like that.  This book could be his biography. 

Now, If he wanted to leave wouldn't he just go? We don't have assets or children.  I wasn't planning on leaving.  I am going to leave that up to him, given my faith.   

In any case, she does not have a clue. She just thinks she knows.   And I am not going to tell her either. 

My husband blames me a lot in front of my friends.  A few of them who have gotten closer in who thought they knew something,  he put them in no win situations.   I can feel the 'pain'  as they get close.  And they have taken their distance.  Other than that, those who think they know, do not have a clue.  They just think they know.  They do not know what I deal with everyday. 

The first help was the book I found... .Stop walking on egg shells.  Who could have known! And he acts just like that.

[needhelp!]

By the way. I enjoyed your experience, tattered heart.  You really hung in there.

[isilme]

Now, If he wanted to leave wouldn't he just go?

He doesn't want to leave.  He wants his cake and to eat it, too.  He has you on standby, waiting and ready to give him what he needs, but maybe partly out of fear you will die on him or leave him, is shoring up some alternatives "just in case".  You are a safe bet.  So he's looking to get some validation from other sources as well, in case something happens to you.

If you are okay with this, then nothing needs to be done.  If not, a boundary about appropriate behavior with others needs to be established. 

Also, your friend may also be someone who has BPD tendencies to feel this is even okay within the friendship.  We often attract similar people who compliment our own internal struggles. 

[needhelp!]

isilme.


I agree 100%.  I wouldn't be surprised if my friend has a little bit of mental issues too if she thinks she can do this.  The question is how to go about setting boundaries.  I have tried verbally with him and also with her on separate occasions to set the boundaries, but it is like trying to take a bone from a dog who has it inbetween his teeth.  He just holds tighter.  I decided to try another approach,  it seems to be working somewhat.  I decided to stop focusing attention on her and try to work on OUR relationship.  As there are little blessings for us, it gets under her skin. 

In any case,  is there any way to set clear boundaries and reinforce that with him.  There will probably be nothing I can do about her... .

[pearlsw]

Hi all,

I wonder needhelp! if you are in the Bible study group you could suggest particular topics that might remind folks what the religion says about marriage and how to comport oneself regarding it? Or would that be too pointed of an approach?

[Enabler]

if you are in the Bible study group you could suggest particular topics that might remind folks what the religion says about marriage and how to comport oneself regarding it?

I sent this link to my uBPDw which she discussed with her emotional affair male church friend. It resonated with her briefly however she quickly moved on to justify their relationship as God sent and continued on with the inappropriate relationship... .actually getting worse. Her and the friend actually approached over 4 different groups of religious leaders for advice on their friendship and UTTERLY ignored all the unanimous advice of no contact.

https://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kreitz/Christian/Boundaries/09intruders.pdf

It's a very good article but ultimately I think your husband is either aware that this intruder relationship is inappropriate and therefore he will likely mentally justify it's continuation as being "different", or he is unaware of the inappropriate nature and you will be labelled controlling/blaming/shaming by pointing it out to him. Like many things in the pwBPD's life, they will find ways to exonerate themselves of the guilt and shame which a rational self reflecting individual may feel. We all have moments/periods of madness, getting swept away in the moment but I feel the overriding desire to avoid being wrong and therefore feeling annihilated will trump any moral recognition that their relationship is inappropriate.

[Notwendy]

Enabler is spot on with the moral justification. Some people know the rules but can rationalize very well how they don't apply to themselves.

Infidelity doesn't always go along with BPD- it is an issue in some, and not some others. The important thing is to look at the situation for you and your values.

Boundaries are not something we can impose on others. Boundaries are for us. If fidelity in marriage is a value- the boundaries then are: I will not cheat ,and I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who cheats. We can't control the actions of someone else- only us. We can speak our minds- "this bothers me" but the other person still chooses what to do.

The other boundary is with your friend. Do you want to be friends with this person?

I like how you are not getting into the triangle with her by telling her about your H. I'd expect her to run to him with this information. Read about the Karpan Triangle. These dynamics are common in BPD relationships.

The real issue is your values and boundaries. How do you respond to this? There are two people here who are being inconsiderate of your feelings. What does being a best friend mean to you?

[Notwendy]

I can also relate to your dilemma-

Many years ago - my H had a female co-worker who was interested in him. I don't have any proof of what may or may not have happened between them but I was not certain it was "nothing" either.

She was also excellent at her job at work and my H really did value her as a co-worker. I was the one who was uncomfortable with the situation.

What were my fears at the time?

One is that he would leave me, be happier with her, show her the "good side " of him that I fell in love with. However, I learned about relationships that- we tend to attract people that match us in some ways emotionally and that we tend to repeat dysfunctional patterns in our relationships ( unless we do some work on ourselves). I realized that either of us would probably have the same issues with someone else if we were with anyone else at the time.

I also looked at my own boundaries. Fidelity in marriage is important to me. So is fidelity in friendships. I think it is wrong to go after a friend's husband. I think it is wrong to go after anyone's husband. So, I make a point not to do the things I think are wrong.

But I had no control over what my H would do or what this woman would do and nothing I could do could change that. I was't naive to the situation - it was just that I had no control over someone else's choices.

I was also aware that we can put on a "mask" in public - show people only our good sides, and in fact, we should be professional at work. So what this woman was enamored with was the work persona, and vice versa. When my H left the house, I'd be in PJ's getting the kids up. She'd be all polished in her work attire. However, neither of them knew what was more than what they saw.

Your friend is idolizing your H as the "Bible Leader" and he likes the adoration. But neither of them are in dealing with the complications of a real relationship and if they were in one, they would see them.

It was tough to be in this position, but I had to fall back on my own values and faith and stay secure in the fact that I am a good wife, good mother, and have values and if he didn't want this, it was his choice.

Eventually she took another job.

This has not happened again for us. If it was a repeated pattern, I think I would feel differently. Infidelity isn't just with BPD. This kind of thing is unfortunately common. We are middle age and I know several couples who have dealt with this. Some have overcome it and some have split up and then some are remarried to other people. It's scary and sad to think about, but I really also don't think we can control someone else's choices.

Hang in there- take the moral high road and keep in touch with your own values. Your "friend" sounds like someone with her own issues. Doesn't look like she and your H would be a stable pair.

[Enabler]

Your friend is idolizing your H as the "Bible Leader" and he likes the adoration. But neither of them are in dealing with the complications of a real relationship and if they were in one, they would see them.

Spot on. They have both idolized each others quest for being free from the bondage of their partners (uBPDw and her OM). The problem I see is that their idealization is in fact flawed in as much as they would be freed from one set of "imprisonment" only to be captive to another... .each other. They were both wearing their idealizing phase masks and the attributes they admired in each other were in fact a) an illusion b) incompatible. OM for example liked independent travel and likes to go off and do things on his own, something utterly incompatible with uBPDw's abandonment fears or her trust issues (especially his desire for female company!), lack of help around the house, doesn't spend time with his own 2 kids... .He on the other hand admired her free thinking, which is completely absent in normal day to day life in the woman I know and love. Without the trappings of responsibilities, children, a home and need to earn income this idealisation may stand a vague chance in reality... .but ironically their freedom together relied heavily on me and his wife looking after their responsibilities at home to facilitate them seeing each other... .thus enabling their relationship!

I have to admit, although I knew that controlling uBPDw was impossible and therefore I left alone, I tried to snoop and gain information as to what was going on and how serious it was. If anything to ensure I had a solid reality of my own. It only served to paint me as more controlling as an individual even though I was feeling like I was being controlled by them. Odd place to be.

[needhelp!]

I also agree with that 'enabler'.  His standards for an open marriage will be forced upon me, and/or his efforts toward security in case I abandon him, Which has never been my intention. 

And as he blames and criticizes me in front of our friends, They have no clue, nor do I think they would believe my information about BPD/npd if I told them. They would just think I was disrespecting my Husband by talking about it.  Some of them DO believe from their own experiences, however,  that he DOES have a mental disorder.  I have not commented one way or the other to them on that though.

As for me I believe in God.  This is something only for HIM.  For me it is definitely a no-win situation.    Can one man out manipulate God?   

[needhelp!]

Thanks for the encouragement notwendy.  I know.  The only choices I can control are my own.  Thanks.  I will hang in there. 

I am sure he exhibits BPD traits though.  He goes from fear of abandonment to fear of being controlled and then the cycle repeats.  So I remind him frequently that it is my intention to do neither.  And I try to reassure my friends of my love for him.  That helps them to feel secure.   

[Notwendy]

His standards for open marriage?

Does he want an open marriage?

I just want to check that I am reading this correctly. You are a religious person and I assume that you want a traditional marriage?

[needhelp!]

I would like to thank whomever it is who made this website.  The writers of the books, The essential family guide to BPD, and How to stop walking on eggs shells.  All of these provisions have helped me so much.  ... .Speaking of God being a provider.   He has provided me this outlet to talk about this matter and to read and discuss the experiences that others may be going through with this mental illness.  THANK YOU AGAIN!   

[needhelp!]

Hello,  I am the author of the original question about the Crazy Triangle.  I have a friend who has always been a little bit envious of the things I did.  When I went somewhere special, she needed to go.  When I bought something new, she needed to have one.  I used to just manage it by not including her when I did or had something I knew she would be envious of. 

I resently got married.  One day, after my sister died, my husband proclaimed, what would happen to me, if something happens to you!,  where would I go, what will i do!  That's the first sign of any problems.  Then he started flirting with my best girl friend. 

Later on I found out that he was said to have a mental problem but never went for the diagnosis.  I made him several  appointments, but he would not go.  I gave him the information to make the appointment, but he never followed through. 

I called the psychologist and he was VERY helpful as to what my husbands condition could be but of course without him seeing him personally,  he could not make a diagnosis.  With that information, I did a lot of research. This led me to some publications that led me here.   I AM VERY SURE my husband has BPD traits.  I wouldn't be surprised if he had full blown BPD.

Now to my question,  when we got married, my husband agreed to come to my hometown.  But after all this I would like to get away from here.  Would it be unwise to move with him to his hometown?  I would have to quit my job and find a new one.  I would be close around his family (more drama).  In talking to my sister in laws, they deal with similar things.  So far as I know, they haven't dealt with intrusions from other women.  But they deal with same types of attitudes.  Up until now, they are the only ones I can talk to.  But they really have never given any satisfying advice on how to successfully deal with their husbands traits.  They just put up with it, that's all.  They have never named it.  And I don't dare tell them what I know.  I am he newby in the family.

If we moved,  would I just be asking for more trouble?  Is this the 'No win" situation they talked about? 

[Notwendy]

Hi Needhelp-
I can't answer the question about should you move or not, but IMHO, something like a move should be based on things besides the relationship- economics, new job, etc. Relationship dysfunction is part of the people involved- a move won't change that - you are both the same people wherever you are, and can work on a relationship wherever you are.

I would also consider being cautious about any situation that changes your ability to work and your support system. Being in a new place without friends and possibly not a job will likely make things worse for you.

If your H's family dynamics are dysfunctional and they are in close contact, you will be dealing with this as well.

If you wish to move to get away from your friend who is after your husband, consider that your H's involvement is also a result of his own poor boundaries and if he is seeking this kind of attention, he can seek it wherever he goes.

IMHO, moving won't solve your marital problems and could make them worse. You can work on the marital issues where you are.

[needhelp!]

Yes.  You just said what I know inside.  If I don't go since I promised to, would that be a negative intermittent reinforcement.  He originally said for obvious reasons, he didn't want to go.  But I got him to agree... . 

[Notwendy]

You can change your mind. He may not react well, but think of this- if you do something that you truly feel is not good for you, out of fear of his reaction, who are you hurting in the long run?

One issue with living with someone who thinks in black and white is that- our decisions are not always black and white- we weigh different options. People are not perfect- they may change their minds, they may make mistakes, and they do many good things- they are not all good or all bad, and an error doesn't make them the worst criminal on the planet.

Your H may get upset- and say some horrible things in the moment, but it doesn't make them true. IMHO, better to be honest- that you thought about this and have some reservations, than to move and find yourself in a situation you don't want to be in.

[needhelp!]

Thanks notwendy for the insight. With that in mind,  I think all I will have to do is to enumerate the costs it takes to move to another city. 

From experience, the NPD part of him will probably not want to pay it once heard from that point of view.