Breakup Limbo

[babyducks]

Hi pearlsw.

I can't be certain what causes his behavior. What if this isn't BPD (traits) and he's bipolar?

My partner was both,   BPD and bipolar.    I eventually learned to tell them apart, so to speak.   Both illness exist on a spectrum,  and behavior and moods in both can vary.    What I noticed was the bipolar (for her) had a very very strong physical component to it.    In that my partner wouldn't sleep for 2 or 3 days in a row.    The psychomotor agitation would go through the roof.      The trigger would often be physical.   Disruptions in diet, sleep, stress.    The pressurized speech would be very very evident.   The trigger for a BPD dysregulation was often emotional.   and while the bipolar would wax and wane the BPD was more all pervasive.     It impacted how she viewed nearly everything, a chance encounter at the store,  the cat throwing up in the laundry.   

2. I don't believe I deserve to be treated badly, but he does have a right to break up. He (as do I, I suppose) have valid reasons to be mad with the other person and want to end things. How much leeway do I give him because of that?

I would flip this question around and look at it from the other side.   If he has the right to break up, he also has the responsibility to do it appropriately.   For me,   I believe every right we claim comes with a corresponding responsibility.    We have a right to drive?   We have a responsibility to do it safely.   We have a right to own gold fish,  we have a responsibility to clean fish bowls and provide clean water.   

I think the question is how much leeway do you give him in avoiding his responsibilities?     

3. It's a little "life or death" for me if he walks out the door.

Yeah this does kind of seem like the crux of it doesn't it.   You place a high value on a stable, secure relationship.   something he struggles with.  that's neither right or wrong, it just is.    you two are very different in that regard.

what I see as the difference is intent and motivation,... if you communicate to sooth yourself externally... .well, that's one thing, because it leaves you in a vulnerable position.    if you communicate to sooth him,  that's another thing,   you want to encourage him to sooth himself.   right?    or not right?

I just sent short, friendly emails to remind him he is loved. It made me feel less lonely/scared. I could feel like I was doing something to make things better in a crisis. (But I wasn't?)

I see being calm and providing stability and reminding him he is loved as two separate things.    Being calm and providing stability I see as helping him troubleshoot his chaotic emotions by active or empathic listening.   

Reminding him he is loved to feel less lonely and scared is self invalidating.   To me.   Your experience might be different.   You value stable relationships.    It feels a little life or death when he walks out the door.    I believe one of the things we all share on this website is our willingness to put our needs second to some one else's.    When he walks out and you send friendly emails you are trying to get your needs met.    You need to feel less lonely and scared.   I am wondering if this is the best way to get this need addressed.   

what do you think?

'ducks

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi babyducks,

Thanks so much for putting your eyes on this!

Yes, I notice a biological component at times too... .he starts to have trouble sleeping and then a shift in moods happens. It feels very sudden, but I am starting to recognize it more and more. He cannot handle high levels of stress. He is totally out of control at these times, in a very dark place. He says "I can't hold myself" meaning keep himself calm.

Nice flip! I think the way this played out is he dysregulated and wanted a fast divorce, I slowed it all down... .I have a "no divorce while dysregulating policy", but I did have to seek legal advice just incase... .I told him we had to wait to talk it over when he was more balanced. Sure enough, once he balanced, he did not want one - "at all, ever".

It was scary as hell for me because he turns my whole world upside down. I lose my country, housing, everything if he tosses me out. Well, I've come to learn he can't do it fast legally if I resist, but it is still earth-shattering stuff. He becomes a completely different person. Angry, puts a lot of pressure on me, acts totally unreasonably. I try to hold him to promises about being responsible, but... .it is only because I have a good memory and can focus on reality that I can hold the line to the degree I do.

Oh yes, I want him to soothe himself as much as possible, but I think it is unavoidable that I participate in this to some degree at times. I am about to be away for... .oh, a week I guess, and I can already see him having trouble with it. He has to self soothe his fears of abandonment while I am away because I simply don't have time, energy, or desire to do so. I need to be away and present and living my life and emotions during... .well, days of funeral stuff with family. I am nervous, in the background though, because I know he will be at risk of losing it while I am away. I will "pay a price" for this time with my family whether I like it or not. There is always a price.

The emails/contact had multiple motives. I am sure I sent a few too many of them, but I think sending none would have been a bigger mistake. I sent them off into the ether. He did not reply after a certain point, I wasn't even sure whether he'd blocked me or not, but he did say later he did read them and was glad I wrote them. He didn't feel rewarded at all by this. He has no ego about stuff like that. He is not trying to "win". But he was in such an angry place... .they did not appeal to him in those moments. For me, I know no one in this country at all... .just him... .and I have no one I can easily (with understanding) talk to besides here on this site. I think the emails made little difference either way. I might try to do less next time, but as I had conversational thoughts in my head I sent notes, I mean there are big things to think/talk over when a serious looking divorce threat and him actually being at his lawyer's house sure made it seem real, I had things to say. It gives me chills now to even think back to this time... .it was very traumatic. Very.

Lonely and scared? The best thing for me is to have a better job, or creating a business - having more money and independence so I can be totally free any moment I want to be and no one has this much sway over me ever again. I can't believe I got into this kind of situation. I took a big leap and trusted my ability to overcome obstacles in life. I will again, it's just a steep, steep climb back to that point.

thanks 'ducks and Wentworth for putting your eyes on this!

[Radcliff]

ducks, thanks for joining!

pearlsw, I agree with everything ducks said, though she probably managed to do it more eloquently with fewer words than me!   But in reading your reply, I understand that this is very hard for you.  Ducks was very gentle, so it might be worth reading her reply a few times.  I think you really hit on something when you said that the messages you are sending may be as much or more to address your needs/fears as to address his.  I think ducks was insightful to call this self-invalidating.  I pretty firmly believe that you are protecting him from the natural consequences of his actions by giving him this warmth when he has separated.  One other way to look at it is that he separates because he has a need to separate for a bit.  In a way, one could say that you are not respecting this need (not intending to criticize, but just go with me on this for a sec).  If you were to not send messages after the first one (just one, saying you're looking forward to his return when he's ready), perhaps he'd have his need for "space" met sooner, and return sooner.  In the meanwhile, how might you self soothe in a way that is not self-invalidating?  In a way that is more respectful of his "request" for space?

WW

[babyducks]

Hi Pearl,

Yes, I notice a biological component at times too... .He cannot handle high levels of stress. He is totally out of control at these times, in a very dark place. He says "I can't hold myself" meaning keep himself calm.

I am joining the conversation late so please excuse me if you have discussed this before.  I am trying to orient  my thinking.   When you say totally out of control, do you mean psychotic?    And when he says "I can't hold myself"   it sounds to me like he is describing something beyond 'calm'.    I would imagine that calm is too mild an adjective to describe it.

I ask because my ex partner did have times of psychosis.    I still believe she is entitled to her privacy around some of her more difficult moments so I am only ever discuss one episode, one she herself has shared in a public forum.     In a bipolar mania she believed she could drive the car by putting her one hand out the window and the other hand out the sun roof and allow the wind to "push"  the car through her.   It was a powerful and dangerous delusion.

I mention this because language is important.   How we describe what we observe makes a huge difference.  And I think we bring our own pre-conceptions and biases to the conversation.    Somebody smarter than me said "Words create Worlds".     The words we use create our portal, our view point on the world.    On the spectrum of calm - not calm - emotionally reactive - dsyregulated - delusional - psychotic, the possible ramifications and responses can vary wildly.
 

the way this played out is he dysregulated and wanted a fast divorce,... .once he balanced, he did not want one - "at all, ever".

Interesting.   To me this reads as the traditional all or nothing thinking,   the black and white, no shades of gray.    I would say that 'balanced'  would fall closer into the ball park of,     the trust and good will in my relationship has been damaged and we need a plan of recovery and a plan to resolve these relationship issues.   Yes?   No?

It was scary as hell for me because he turns my whole world upside down. I lose my country, housing, everything if he tosses me out.

That would have to be terrifying.    It also means you have many and multiple vested interests.   If it was me, keeping a line of communication open that was friendly and comfortable would remove some of the blazing insecurity I would be in the middle of.    Thing is though... .  physically and practically I would still be insecure and vulnerable,  housing, citizenship would still be tenuous but I would building myself a sense of security, which might be false.

but I think it is unavoidable that I participate in this to some degree at times... .

I think you are right.   There are times it will be unavoidable and you will need to participate.    I admit I probably didn't do a good job of this.   I often misread signals and under estimated the amount of self regulating she was doing.

Still, part of me wants to say, being aware of rescuing "things are chaotic out there with you but if you come back I will help makes things calm and stable",   there will be no consequence for your impulsive action.

Be aware of rewarding,  threats of divorce are damaging to the relationship,   there is no two ways around that.  you just don't spring back to 'normal'.   messages of "come home all is okay" doesn't reflect what really happened or is going on.   You've been hurt.    Pay attention to that.

and be aware of unintentionally putting yourself in the one up position,  the "I am the sane, competent, caring, compassionate person who accepts these limitations",... .he can't help but resent that.

all of that is like trying to walk a very narrow path

my two cents,
'ducks

and Wentworth?   I don't believe I've ever been called very gentle before.

[pearlsw]

Hey ya'll!

Thanks for trying to make sense of this with me. I appreciate it. No problem at all on tone WW! You're totally fine! Always feel free to speak your mind here! I value your thoughts very much!

'ducks,

I think my h would describe himself as having had some psychotic breaks in the past year, but I don't know if he/we are using the right words now that you mention it. He had to be given shots twice by his doctor because he could no longer function.

He is hard to pin down. Earlier on in our relationship I thought he might be bipolar because of what seemed like severe mood swings, later his sister-in-law (who studied psychology) suggested ADHD, at another point (last year) I showed him a list of symptoms and borderline made a lot of sense to him, he is now saying he thinks he has PTSD. I think he'd fly under the radar on any particular description/diagnosis. He has described himself as "emotionally sensitive" and he clearly has issues with abandonment and extreme black and white thinking. He also has a terrible memory which has its up and downsides. He also, I notice, can't recall a lot of his life or seems to block out bad things nearly entirely.

He disclosed (just last year) he had been sexually abused in his teens. He is also hypervigilant, in a lot of physical pain (bound to make anyone irritable) and has been struggling to find relief around that, he had a nasty divorce and custody battle (his ex did the one thing he wanted her to never do - kidnap his kids. She was mean and even abusive at times towards the kids, but managed to control them pretty well for her purposes. She had psychotic episodes/saw visions that caused her to abandon him and the kids at one point, etc., and he made the mistake of taking her back "for the sake of the kids" for her to only cause more havoc.) and his whole marriage seemed to be a disaster from beginning to end and beyond... .how much this was him/her/both is hard to decipher. She told him early on to basically never share any of his problems with her/keep them all outside the house so he got a raw deal on comfort/support/understanding from the get go. He's also very jealous (some of this is cultural, and what's worse for him is I can't relate to it at all emotionally as I am extremely not jealous.).

He tends to hyper focus to the point of forgetting to eat. He used to want me around, but not talk to me much and not even notice. He can block other people out entirely but get really upset by small noises. Sometimes he blocked me out because of exhaustion, depression, his ex, court cases, etc. He has migraines, is introverted, and sometimes moans loudly in a scary way in his sleep. He has almost no recall of dreaming.  He grew up in a non-Western country under a dictatorship were you tow the line or disappear and are subjected to what amounts to brainwashing at school. It was so unfree you were not allowed to talk about many topics. Just playing outdoors had its serious risks so he was stuck at home most of the time/not free to go out. While he loves his culture he also feels it was a very corrupt world he lived in - so it put him on guard and ingrained distrust. He was also basically segregated from females growing up. His first marriage was arranged - by his choice. He comes from a Western and a non-Western culture - so he's sort of a built-in more than one person in one.

His older brother has schizophrenia, and his professor dad likely had a mental illness too from the behavior's described to me by his mom... .Whatever he did nearly drove his mother to suicide and led her to kidnap his siblings away from the country the family lived in/she had no rights in. I can see why she got to this point if he's at all like this dad... .He also feels shame and embarrassment very intensely. He is impulsive and wants all his needs met instantly - can't wait. (From sex to all else.) I find him to be hypersexual - when he does not get sex the amount/time he wants it his personality flips. (I have managed to make some progress on this issue.)

On the flip side he's funny and grows a pretty cute beard.  He's highly educated (2 master's, a doctorate, and he invented something/has a patent) and has a great job. He's willing to look at all this stuff and make changes on it, he's just putting his physical health first, but is desperate to please and change what he can - at times.

Since he is currently undiagnosed (and I doubt he could be properly diagnosed without a hospitalization, but I don't know) I work on just dealing with the behaviors and doing the best I can with them. I hate that I still get lulled into thinking, during the calmer times, that he's "learned" from this and this is going away. Whatever all this is seems to always find new variations, though some of it repeats. I don't get yet what he can control and can't control with this stuff and that feels like an important distinction to me.

Yep, there is no security. He promises me the moon and takes it away just as fast. I am the only stability in my life, and I am hampered being in a foreign country in terms of doing things for myself as compared to the ease with which I could solve/manage things in my native country. Bummer because getting with him made my life less stable, not more as I'd hoped. I chalked a lot of it up to stress in the first couple years, but it just got progressively worse. In some ways its gotten much better in the last year (he's much more insightful and open to improving) although it was also probably one of the worse years of my entire life... .And I can easily, and sadly, say he's treated me worse than everyone I've ever met in my entire life put together.  

This was the only time he left the household entirely - last month. It was a "crime" of opportunity. Typically he'd be here and I could keep checking in/backing off as needed. When he's here I don't try to talk when he can't handle it. When he left I feared that his lack of object constancy would make it easier to... .let his temporary hatred towards me run wild and do permanent damage to the future. I can't help but try to head this off. It has cost me both work and educational opportunities... .and done damage to my health via a high level of stress. If I had followed his advice on how I was supposed to eat while he was away this last time and left me with no money (get help from the authorities) I could have permanently destroyed my immigration status here. Luckily I was sharp enough, in the peak of a crisis, to ask about this and avoid this damage.

My life (for now) is (unfortunately) in his (unstable) hands. His world is VERY black and white. He is not resentful, he doesn't have the memory to hold grudges. He is actually quite dependent and wants to be entirely cared for. He can't cook, etc. In his culture this kind of thing is not a thing as far as I can tell - being totally dependent, zero privacy between people compared to what I'm used to. He basically wants me ALWAYS around him... .except when he "hates" me and wants me to leave. A lot of this is related to stress and lack of coping ability.

That's all I've got for now... .I appreciate any thoughts or just basic human kindness... .I am away for a week, must head overseas to a funeral, so may not be able to host this thread for a bit or reply as quickly as I'd like.