Peeling Back the Layers

[Meili]

My T annoys me. She does what I pay her to do. It's a real drag some days... .

I've written before about her helping me see that I stay in r/s until there is a need to leave rather than when I want to leave.

Last week, she asked me if, when I realize that a r/s is over and I'm just staying because there is no need to leave, if I worry that my SO will leave first. I told her that wasn't the case, and that I because I know that there is an expiration date, I am prepared for things to be over. But, I spent the rest of the week wondering how true that really was. There wasn't much truth behind the statement.

I stay because I am afraid to be alone. OK, fine. I have admitted to being afraid of being alone before. I can handle that. She wouldn't leave things there though, she peeled back another layer... .

And, of course, she did this 2 minutes before the session ended... .gggrrr... .

She took a look at my fear of intimacy. This was not something that I've ever thought about myself. I'm fairly open with people when they ask me things, and I'm more than happy to share my introspection here.

But, what she made me realize today is that I have not had a male friend that I actually hung out with one-on-one since 1997 or 1998. If I don't do things with a group or with a female that I'm romantically interested, I don't do things with anyone. I'm more than happy to ride my motorcycle by myself, go to the movies, shopping, whatever, but I don't have any friends that I hang out with one-on-one.

The significance of the 1997-1998 date is that my best friend of 19 years started sleeping with my pregnant 19 year old fiancee. To add insult to injury, he then testified against me in the custody battle over the child. I forgave her years ago. I still harbor anger toward him though. He's the only person that I've ever held onto anger with.

I've never considered how much all of that affected my life and how I relate to other people. In retrospect, I can see that I've never been completely close to anyone since that time.

It's also when I began to split my r/s. I've always had another female that I would talk to and keep close when in a physical r/s. One was emotional, the other physical; neither woman had all of me. I never thought it was any big deal, and never viewed it as an emotional affair. As a general rule, the emotional r/s existed before the physical one and we "just friends" after all. I learned the hard way just unfair that is to the woman I'm in a physical r/s with.

I'm having difficulty processing all of this and figuring out how to undo the teachings of my past.

[Tattered Heart]

Ouch. Tough thing to see.

Do you think the fear of allowing yourself to get close to other men started with the friend who slept with your GF? Or was it earlier in your life?

I think the easiest way to break a pattern is to just go out and do something opposite that pattern. Like you I never had many girlfriends. The few females that I was friends with often had more male type behavior and traits. And I only allowed myself one female friend at a time. My other friends were all men. 3-4 years ago I began leading women's groups at church. I found that I kept myself at a distance from these women, never allowing them to see behind the surface, telling myself that since I was the leader of the group my job was to oversee things. I needed to be the example and not share my junk like they did. This was just my defense to not get close.

I found that I began to enjoy being around these women. I led a study on the book Boundaries. And in that study with them I realized that I had set up some pretty high fences. Boundaries are like fences. They let the good in and keep the bad out. My focus for my whole life has always been to keep the bad out. I had never considered letting the good in. I began to open up, just a peek. And they accepted me. They listened. They shared with me. They didn't reject me. So I opened up a little more. And with each step I began to have friendships. Real friendships. With women.

What good do you want to let in? Where can you find other guys that you can start just getting to know?

[Meili]

Looking back, yes it started with the friend sleeping with her. Before that, I had healthy friendships. I don't have them now with males or females.

But, I strongly suspect that the genesis goes back to my FoO and the rejection by my parents and siblings. My friend and fiancee probably just cemented the thought process for me. As a result, it is now applied to everyone that I engage with in the physical world.

My T said the same thing about getting out and meeting people: that I just need to do it. I can pinpoint the self-created obstacles and the reasons behind them, but I cannot seem to force myself through them. It would seem that holding onto my maladaptive coping mechanisms created by false beliefs is less painful. That world is familiar and the other is risky. The panic that is associated with even just the thought of venturing outside of that comfort zone is overwhelming and my mind just shuts down.

What's funny is that I have friends who claim to know me. They enjoy spending time with me. They are interested in me. But my distrust runs so deep that I only share only the surface parts of myself.

I think that part of this might be because I only know and trust to parts to be real or are social acceptable in whatever social circle I am taking part in.

[once removed]

in fairness to you, the world is changing, and its harder to make friends with deep connections as we get older.

sure, the point is to get out and meet people. you can meet one hundred people and its not guaranteed that you will form a deep connection with them.

but the fact that you dont have a deep connection with a given person does not mean that it cant be a fulfilling connection.

what makes a connection fulfilling to you? whats (if anything besides trust) holding you back from creating those?

[Meili]

At the risk of sounding annoying and arrogant, I find most people boring.  And, in all fairness, I am pretty sure that others find me boring as well.

This is especially true of males in North Texas. I sat and listened to a conversation between my boss and another guy in our office building yesterday. They were talking about watching college football, the Cowboys, and "the series" (which I assume meant The World Series). I had no idea that any of this was going on, mostly because I don't care.

I can hang-out and talk to people about cars and bikes, but that can only last so long. There's only so much that can be said about either.

I've spent my entire adult life studying philosophy, sociology, theology, and physics. This greatly narrows the pool of people that I have things with whom I  have things in common. 

I've been fortunate in that I've been exposed to so many different things that I can fit in almost anywhere and talk to people. But, as my T pointed out, this helps me get to know them. It doesn't help them get to know me.

When I start to relax and talk about things that interest me, people's eyes tend to glaze over and the topic gets changed.

[once removed]

i can relate to that. i dont totally want to let you off the hook here, but its a common belief for introverts, which you probably know.

it doesnt, however, speak to what makes a connection fulfilling to you. does it occur when someone isnt boring? when someone has also studied philosophy, sociology, theology, physics? how about when someone can make you laugh? is it something dysfunctional?

I am pretty sure that others find me boring as well.

... .

But, as my T pointed out, this helps me get to know them. It doesn't help them get to know me.

When I start to relax and talk about things that interest me, people's eyes tend to glaze over and the topic gets changed.

do you really think others find you boring? i dont. do you find you boring? how much might that have to do with it?

i do get the case where youre talking about stuff that interests you and peoples eyes glaze over. im self conscious about it too, a lot of people are. heck of a hook to have the opposite reaction in a romantic relationship. sometimes its just the case that something we are interested in will bore the other person, its true. sometimes its a matter of how we share. i know for example, when i talk to others about say, music, i can shoot a bit over their heads... .thats more about my style of relating than me being boring or even them finding me boring.

i dont have a lot of answers here. i just want to probe some of these beliefs.

[Meili]

It's cool, I don't expect a lot of answers because I'm not even sure what the right questions are to be asking myself.

I think that I probably glossed over your question about connection because I really have no idea. As I said, it's been about 20 years since that's happened.

Being hypersensative to rejection doesn't help matters much either.

Laughter? No, not really. The person doesn't have to have be versed, well or otherwise, in the things that interest me. I am fascinated by most things. I think that it would tend to have more to do with how open-minded the person could be that would dictate how close I would allow someone to get to me.

Yes, I do find myself boring. I am told that I do interesting things, but to me they are just my life and not particularly interesting at all. I'm sure that plays a part in things. I can't help but think that being a HSS comes into play here. Without intensity, I find most things boring.

I agree, having someone show interest in me is a definite hook on the romantic front, and I'm extremely susceptible to it.

I'm sure that delivery comes into play for me as well. I'm either not assertive, or come across too strongly and appear arrogant. Never having developed healthy social skills is definitely a problem here. I'm not sure how much of that is from Asperger's and how much is just a lack of socialization when I was a child?

[Tattered Heart]

I can hang-out and talk to people about cars and bikes, but that can only last so long. There's only so much that can be said about either.

I've spent my entire adult life studying philosophy, sociology, theology, and physics. This greatly narrows the pool of people that I have things with whom I  have things in common. 

Sounds like you've just been looking in the wrong places. Your activities are for an introverts, which means that the thousands of people out there who are really interested in what you are interested in are at home learning about the things you are interested in.    You know what you enjoy so find those that do enjoy those things too. Are there motorcycle shops near you where you could go hang out with some other motorcycle enthusiasts? Go on purposeful rides, like to raise $ for child abuse or something like that?

Join a buy here site on FB and advertise a new philosophy group. Come up with some philosophical topics for each meeting and let the friendships grow. If you feel particularity relational to one of the guys, hit them up for a burger or coming over for a BBQ (What do men do for fun?)

[Meili]

All are very splendid ideas TH, and things that I've done (well, not the FB group).  I've been very active in the local motorcycle community. I lead a lot of group rides, and have even helped set up the local chapter for the Indian Owners Motorcycle Club.

A huge part of the problem with me and the local motorcycle scene is that my x is heavily involved in it as well. This is one of those self-created roadblocks that I mentioned. I've backed out of leading rides and hanging out with others who ride because inevitably, I get to hear about her.

I still have hangups where she is concerned and have not ever completely dealt with all of it. So, hearing about her, seeing pics of her, and taking the chance that we are going to run into one another is not something that I'm comfortable with yet. As a general rule, I do a great job of telling people that I don't want to talk about her and walk away when people start. Avoidance is what my T calls it.

I've lost most of my desire to ride lately. In fact, I've only been on my bike once in the past three weeks, and that was just a quick trip down the road to the store.

Geez... .even the talk of all this has peaked my anxiety and brought depression to the front again. I think that my meds work great for the day to day stuff, but anything outside of that they doesn't seem to do much.

[Tattered Heart]

Totally off topic but are you making negative self-judgments about yourself right now?

[Meili]

I'm not sure that it's off-topic, but yeah, usually.

[Tattered Heart]

In relation to what your struggling with, are your self judgments:

true and accurate for you right now?
true sometimes? Under what circumstances?
true in the past, but no longer?

How can you re-frame those judgments?

[Meili]

They all feel true under all circumstances.

But, I will acknowledge that my cognitive thought processes fight against them.

[Meili]

What is it about this time of the year that seems to have me involved somehow with my BPDexes? Perhaps it is because they both share the same birthday and it's shortly after that day that they reenter my life one way or another.

My dBPDxw contacted me a few days ago, for the first time in months, because she has been having a bad time of things, is unhappy, and cannot seem to make any friends where she's at. I guess that I do a much better job of validating her than her live-in bf. It was nice hearing from her and very validating for me to, once again, know that I'm no longer painted black and that she respects my opinion and we can be friendly these days.

My uBPDexgf, the x, is far less directly involved, but I am made aware of her presence just the same. I've had various people talk to me about her for the past four days. I'm not sure why they cannot understand that I really have little interest in hearing about her life. One woman told me that she had to talk to my x before going on a group ride that I was leading. Sad... .

The most interesting report that I have received over the past few days is that my x is selling the jewelry that I make. At first, upon receiving this news, I was completely deflated. She's taking credit for my work; or at least not giving me credit for it.

Then, in the interest of opting for happiness, I spun the situation to:

a. She must be selling the stuff that I made specifically for her. I've decided that this means that she has kept it for the past year since we split, and that she didn't actually hate it (which is the impression that she had left me with).

and

b. That she actually finds some value in my craftsmanship.

It was weird to realize that I felt deflated because it initially felt like what I did for her meant nothing. But, to spin it the other way, that cannot be the case if she kept the stuff this long and has attached some monetary value to it.

Slowly, but surely, my self-esteem is getting rebuilt.

[Meili]

I had an interesting, and distressing, thing happen this weekend. I was at a local motorcycle event, and so was my x. It was the first time that I have seen her in person in a year. She did not say a word to me.

I was having a great time socializing with friends that I have not seen a lot of since I stepped away from that community. Too good of a time; there was free beer. I ended up losing control and I don't really remember driving home at the end of the evening. I have no idea what route I took, all I remember is swerving so as to not his a mailbox. Not good.

I tell you that part because of how it played out for me.

But, let me back up just a few days to include a few important details.

I had been having a great week. My jewelry business has been going strong. I finished a project that I've been working on (a scale maille bra) and received wonderful feedback. And, not that I would pursue it, but an attractive woman in my office building flirted with me all week. It was a great week.

Then, I saw my x, she ignored me. I felt invalidated. I went home to my gf. She was her typically invalidating self. I left, went to a friend's and drank more. He was basically ignoring that I was there, so I spent the whole time talking to his wife. I felt invalidated by my friend. I went home and decided that it was a great idea to contact my dBPDexw. Of all of the people in my world, she is the one who validated me. She talked to me for about two hours. My gf was not happy with me at all. I actually felt a sense of relief, hoping that she was going to end the relationship.

After talking to my xw, I received an email from my x telling me that she sees no reason to be cordial or friendly with me. My response was to send rude, ILY text messages and be very understanding via email.

So, three things that I noted:

1. My ability to self-validate and believe in the validation of others is still almost non-existent.
2. My current relationship is not fulfilling my needs.
3. My chosen coping mechanism was alcohol, and that did not serve me well at all.

Today, I feel like all of the work that I've been doing has failed and I'm back to where I was the day that I went NC with my x.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Meili,

Sorry to hear you had a rough weekend after what sounds like a great week.  It appears that you've found that perhaps there are still some unresolved feelings maybe regards your ex?  Or is it the need for validation that is the main issue do you think?  If and when that situation arises again, what do you plan to do differently to cope with your feelings?  Perhaps it is worth thinking this through and planning ahead so that you are more prepared and have a strategy other than alcohol to fall back on.  What did your T suggest?  

Today, I feel like all of the work that I've been doing has failed and I'm back to where I was the day that I went NC with my x.

I'm wondering how long you were between the two relationships?  How much time did you take just for yourself?

Hope you've recovered from both the literal and emotional hangover and are having a better week this week.

Love and light x

[Meili]

Unresolved feelings for her? I don't think so. I will admit to unresolved feelings about the situation however. She showed me a lot of what I had been searching for in a partner in life. That's the only part that I miss.

There is still a lot of anger within me though. I strongly suspect that has far more to do with my FOO than her.

My need for validation is definitely what was in play that day. My T and I talked, at length, about what happened. And, given the way that I walked away from my x and the painful (for both of us) break-up that lasted for months after, it was really foolish of me to expect her to do anything other ignore my existence. She really doesn't owe me anything; even to be cordial or friendly.

Now that I know what to expect, if/when this situation arises again, it shouldn't be a problem. But, my T suggested that I finally get around to deleting those 70,000+ emails, all of the old text messages, and remove her (and my dBPDexw) from all my contact lists so that I don't do these silly things in the future.

There were about five or six months between the ending of the r/s with my x and my committing to the current one. But, that's just hiding behind a technicality. It kind of depends on who you ask. Per my old T, both r/s coexisted the whole time. I cannot argue that some form of r/s did exist most of the time.

[ynwa]

Hey Meili,   It is good to see you working through such a difficult set of thoughts and feelings.  I felt like you are taking and then putting back together a log cabin or something intertwined.

I can understand your issues with "making friends" too.  For me, being someone who gets so intertwined in my relationships, I have often let friends go and then pop back up when the relationship goes away as it is with a lot of people.  And friendships do seem bland in comparison, as a lot does after a relationship.

Have you wondered that if you had even a little bit larger of a friends circle, the relationships you have been in could have had more space to work and develop?

[Meili]

  ynwa,

That's an interesting thought, and I think that it would have helped my relationships. But, there is a caveat to that: I would have also had to have exercised proper boundaries.

With my x, I did have a large group that I would hang out and do things with. The kicker was that I allowed her to interfere with that and isolate me. Then they became "her friends" (she still says this btw) and I was no longer allowed to associate with them. I no longer care what she wants, but when we were together I did.

But, had I maintained healthy boundaries and a large social circle, I would not have become so enmeshed in relationships.

[Harley Quinn]

Going back to your earlier post, you list your current relationship as not meeting your needs.  Can you identify which needs they are and is this something that can be changed by the introduction of better boundaries, such as having your own friends outside of the r/s and taking space for yourself, or is it on a more fundamental level?  I'm wondering if the enmeshment you're describing is involved here.

Also, the anger you describe feeling towards your FOO.  Do you feel this affects you in other ways within your life or is it your ex that triggers this emotion in isolation?

Love and light x

[Meili]

The anger was triggered as an isolated incident. If I had to guess, it is probably related to my mother locking me a room for hours on end during the day before I started school. My being shut out tends to upset me. If she had told me that she was going to ignore me, that would have been fine. Does that make sense?

No, it is not a boundary issue in the current relationship and I don't think that increasing my social circle would do much to help it either. It is a matter of not feeling like I have any value or importance. That and the lack of communication and honesty. These are things that are, at my core, very important to me. She can't or won't provide them.

[Harley Quinn]

If she had told me that she was going to ignore me, that would have been fine. Does that make sense?

It does.  Knowing what to expect certainly makes things easier to deal with.  Have you encountered other times that you feel you've been affected in the same way? 

Just to pick up on something here.

No, it is not a boundary issue in the current relationship and I don't think that increasing my social circle would do much to help it either. It is a matter of not feeling like I have any value or importance. That and the lack of communication and honesty. These are things that are, at my core, very important to me. She can't or won't provide them.

What I hear you describe above are core values to you.  Your boundaries are tied to these things.  From what I understand you are in the r/s despite the fact that your core values are not being met.  Did the two of you discuss values at the outset of the r/s and have they been consistently communicated throughout and reinforced?  Does she understand what the impact is upon you of not having these values met?

Love and light x

[drained1996]

So, three things that I noted:

1. My ability to self-validate and believe in the validation of others is still almost non-existent.
2. My current relationship is not fulfilling my needs.
3. My chosen coping mechanism was alcohol, and that did not serve me well at all.

I could have written those words at a point in time.  I had the same issues, and until I moved #2 to #1 and dealt with ending that, there was no way for me to focus on myself and my own issues in the way that was needed.  Being alone, and I mean really alone, was how I got to know and understand me... .and my own FOO... .and eventually get a good grasp on how it effected my life.  Gaining that understanding helped me have the ability to move forward and learn to self validate... .which led to earning friends who accepted me for me... .and also validated me.   
I know you only here obviously, but you are a kind and caring soul.  You've helped many others here through difficult times.  Intimate relationships can be blinding and disorienting... .especially with what we have experienced.  Is it time for you to be alone and focus on you for a while and grasp a little better understanding of your FOO and how it affects you?  I haven't read everything you've posted on this, so forgive me if I've missed something... .just thought I'd share I've been there too as you know. 

[Meili]

drained, it's always nice to hear from you! Thank you for the kind words.

My #2 will be moved to #1 in good time. Right now, I need to keep things as they are while I straighten out some other issues in my life.

This thread's title is a reference to my understanding the depths of the problems created by my FOO. With each layer I peel back, I discover something more hidden in there than I knew. There is also a lot more to me than I realized. It's been an exciting journey.

HQ, no, we did not expressly talk about values going into things. She has been told how it is effecting me however. But, for a long time, I gave mixed signals. I would threaten to leave the r/s if things didn't change and here I am. I've taught her that it's acceptable to treat me the way that she does.

She is finally starting to understand just how bad things have gotten though I think. About a week ago, or maybe it's been two now, I decided to postpone the motorcycle trip and quitting my job. I hadn't told her about these choices until last night. The fact that openness and communication are so important to me, and that I didn't feel it necessary to tell her that I made major life choices was a sign she understood.

The reason that I said that it's not a boundary issue is because it's not a matter of my enforcing a boundary. Those things are core values of mine and I maintain them even though I don't receive them.

[drained1996]

My #2 will be moved to #1 in good time. Right now, I need to keep things as they are while I straighten out some other issues in my life.

We'll trust you understand your circumstances and needed process better than we can.  It simply confuses me, as you've stated she does not fill your needs. Combine that with your communication with exBPDw, and uncomfortable circumstances with exBPDgf and it comes across as a lot of enmeshed drama.  It really sounds as if you're counting on those that are not so healthy to help you in moving on in some way.  Let me know if I missed something in what I've read. 

What do you think needs to happen to give you the best path towards your own process of peeling back and understanding all the layers?

[Meili]

The situation with my current r/s revolves around finances, surgery, and, yes, enmeshment.

Regarding the two exes, that really has far more to do with FOO issues than the two women. It took me a bit to figure that out. When seeing my uBPDexgf, it triggered all of the emotions from the isolation and neglect that I experienced as a very young child. All of the anger and resentment that I have toward my mother came bubbling to the surface, but was projected on my x. Along with that came the extreme need to feel important and loved. I didn't get that from my current gf, so I reached out to only other person that I knew could provide that for me, my exw. I just didn't have it to give myself at that moment.

Getting away from where I've lived for several decades over the holiday season has taught me something though. It isn't just the people here that trigger the emotions, it's my surroundings. There is so much negativity and "bad" surrounding me on a daily basis that it keeps me at a heightened state of arousal and very guarded.

It has been a constant in my life that when I travel, I'm more at ease and less afraid. This became readily apparent to me when I was in New York City and was confident and not afraid of anything except for upsetting my current gf.

When I left for the trip, I was terrified that the unfamiliarity and sheer number of people would peak my anxiety levels. The opposite happened. I felt stronger and more capable. This was especially true when I ventured out alone. Wandering the streets of the city didn't bother me in the least. I wasn't constantly looking over my shoulder, waiting for someone to attack me, like I do where I live. That's saying something to me because where I live is a smallish, safe place.

Now, I'm find myself facing a decision: if I move, am I running away? I am struggling greatly with this. I can't seem to determine the difference. I do know that I feel compelled to get out of here and no longer keep myself "trapped." I have a year commitment left on my job, so it's not something that I have to decide today at least.

[drained1996]

It has been a constant in my life that when I travel, I'm more at ease and less afraid. This became readily apparent to me when I was in New York City and was confident and not afraid of anything except for upsetting my current gf.

I've had this same feeling in my own past... .the unfamiliar was comfortable, while the familiar carried baggage.  Seems you carried part of your own baggage with you to NYC.  I too live in a very small town, came from one as well.  I used to be very uncomfortable in my own life and skin here.  Have had the exact same thoughts of moving that you expressed.  Fast forward (though it wasn't really fast) I'm more than comfortable... .I'm happy with me and my life.  Still have some FOO residue to deal with but I know I'll be just fine.   
Lucky Jim made a good point in his post to HQ.  It was really us bringing our FOO with us wherever we may find ourselves... .any relationship romantic or not... .any place.  Comprehending and traveling through my FOO issues was my own personal freedom.  Does all that make sense?

[Meili]

Oh, yes, it makes perfect sense and is the basis of my struggle to determine if I'm running away from or to something. Perhaps it is a bit of both?

There is a lot of baggage, yes. But, there is also a feeling of having no where to go in life here. The energy is drab and dull, and there is a general lack of enthusiasm about anything.

[Harley Quinn]

But, there is also a feeling of having no where to go in life here. The energy is drab and dull, and there is a general lack of enthusiasm about anything.

Do you mean the energy of the place itself, as in the whole state, your energy or someone else's?

Love and light x

[Meili]

The energy of every place in the state that I've been, and I live in a fairly large state.

It is part of the reason that the intensity of the r/s that brought me was so intoxicating for me. There was near constant stimuli.

So, part of my problem is that I don't know if I became comfortable somewhere else whether or not I'd eventually feel the same as I do here? Maybe I'm just nomadic by nature and need to constantly be moving?

This all comes full circle for me and brings me back to: But, am I just running, or am I searching for something that I'll never find outwardly?