After 18 years, I’m worried that my marriage is finally ending Part 2

[Depression = 72% of members]

I just got this text from my wife:
“It's such a terrible, sickening, hurtful feeling knowing what goes on between you and them about me, and knowing you don't stand up for me. That you do the opposite. It hurts me very deeply. And also being lied to.

“You care more about pleasing them than you care about hurting me. Have you ever really sat down and thought about what that must feel like for me?”

(To be clear, “Them” is my family of origin.)

 I feel like maybe a door might be opening. But I’m too exhausted at this moment to be sure of what to do.

If I’m decoding this correctly, I think her fear of abandonment is really a key factor here. Am I on target here?

If I try and communicate my commitment to the relationship do you think that would help? What else could I do or say in response to this that might really help move this forward. I’m really really resisting any urge to JADE here.

Sorry, I’m so exhausted from my first week at my new job I can barely think straight but I feel like I need to jump on this quickly. Why is it so hard to see answers to our own biggest problems sometimes?

[DaddyBear77]

I just got this text from my wife:
“It's such a terrible, sickening, hurtful feeling knowing what goes on between you and them about me, and knowing you don't stand up for me. That you do the opposite. It hurts me very deeply. And also being lied to.

“You care more about pleasing them than you care about hurting me. Have you ever really sat down and thought about what that must feel like for me?”

(To be clear, “Them” is my family of origin.)

 I feel like maybe a door might be opening. But I’m too exhausted at this moment to be sure of what to do.

If I’m decoding this correctly, I think her fear of abandonment is really a key factor here. Am I on target here?

If I try and communicate my commitment to the relationship do you think that would help? What else could I do or say in response to this that might really help move this forward. I’m really really resisting any urge to JADE here.

Sorry, I’m so exhausted from my first week at my new job I can barely think straight but I feel like I need to jump on this quickly. Why is it so hard to see answers to our own biggest problems sometimes?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

Have you explored The Power of Asking Validating Questions? And, by this, I don't just mean the article, I mean asking her validating questions.

The way that I read it, she thinks that you and your family talk bad about her and that you don't stand up for her. Why questions probably won't help and can cause her to become defensive. Questions designed to manipulate and back her into a corner will also cause her to be defensive. But, questions that show that you actually care about what is going on may get her to open up and start talking.

Remember that there are three basic objectives in communicating with others and knowing how and when to use them makes them more effective.

Knowing when to use them and how to know which one to use will make them more effective.

There are 3 basic goals in communicating with others

* to get what we want, we have an objective

* to keep the relationship intact 

* to keep our sense of self respect

Your overall goal determines which of these skills to use

Perhaps the GIVE (to preserve the relationship) or FAST (to preserve self respect) would be best here.

[isilme]

What does she think is said about her?  Can you ask her what she thinks is being said?  I get the same impression as Meli, here.  I think asking "WHY do you feel that I talk badly about you?" is not going to help.  It's her reality at this time.  Would asking WHAT hurtful things she believes has been said help nail it down?  If she resorts to "you know what you said/they said" she has nothing other than her own internal fears. 

what goes on between you and them about me

  WHAT goes on?  WHAT is it she thinks is happening that makes her so hurt?  I am not adept enough to give you advice on how to ask or engage in a conversation about it - I muddle through such things on my own and admit to being invalidating at times because I need to express that H does not read my mind.  He loves to insist he knows what I am thinking, and I have to stress over and over - NO, you only know what YOU are thinking and are trying to put that off on me. 

Just last night he tried to go off on what he assumed I was thinking... .I had to tell him, that something bothered me about a situation with some friends, but it was not what he was insisting.  He insisted I wanted to hate our friends for some freeloading behavior.  I was like, no, but we just learned they may be taking advantage of a church's goodwill - that DOES bother me.  And since my parents made such poor decisions we had to make use of the help of churches in the past, I felt really bad about it.  I realized as we talked, and finally was able to convey, I felt shame at my family having to make use of a church's help to not lose all our worldly possessions, and it made me feel bad to think some friends NOT in dire straights might be abusing such goodwill - not that I hate them for it, but feel ashamed of it.  It was kind of a triggering moment form my teen years.  Not that I was looking to down them as friends, but that I needed to be less naive in interpreting their requests for things.  I take things at face value.  I can't do that with these people.  Anyway, I had to NOT validate the invalid and point out that his impression was incorrect and to let me talk. 

Yes - essentially it almost always falls into a fear of abandonment, but that comes in steps.  She probably is not even aware that she is ultimately afraid of you leaving her (and therefore feels she is safer leaving first, or demanding things be over on her terms, not yours). 

First - she thinks you or your FOO talk badly about her. 
Second - she thinks others will encourage you to leave her based on you talking badly or allowing them to talk badly about her
Third - actual hurt and fear kick in about you maybe leaving her, so she wants to "get you first" and exert control over your lives.  If you counter her control, you don't agree with her and must be thinking about leaving her.

[Notwendy]

DB- first of all- you are exhausted. Our MC taught us not to have emotional discussions when we are in HALT ( hungry, angry, lonely, tired). When we don't have emotional reserves, these kinds of discussions don't generally go very well.

This is what I would do, but I don't know if what works for one person works for everyone.

From the book Men are From Mars - the idea is that women want to be heard, and men want to fix things. I think it does help to just hear her without trying to fix what is upsetting her.

Your wife is upset about something - and you may not understand what it is or why. Somehow your relationship with your parents bothers her. Her reasons and feelings may not be based on anything real, or anything that makes sense to you. But they are real to her. It isn't your job to fix her feelings or to do things you don't feel are according to your values. Maybe she is just projecting stuff on to this.

This is the question she is asking ( inside all the stuff)

Have you ever really sat down and thought about what that must feel like for me?”

Now, you are tired, but can you listen and not react?

Face to face: "honey, I do wonder about how this feels to you. Can you tell me so I can understand it better? "

Then, let it fly. Let all the feeling come out of her at you- whatever it is. You don't care about me you like them better than me ... .don't JADE, don't speak, don't defend. Also don't agree to anything " you better tell me right now that you won't contact them... .

Then say things that are affirming- "I hear you honey, I am sorry you feel that way"

Then your most immediate boundary (deal with the parent issue later) : "Honey, I need to sleep on this. I need to get some rest so I can think more clearly... .".

Continue with "I" statement about how you feel- "I love you honey and I need to sleep on this. "

Hopefully it won't go on all night. When she is in this state, whatever you say can add fuel to the fire. IMHO, let the emotional fire burn out. She is all worked up over something, but you don't have to be. Don't think of the topic as your parents, but her feelings in the moment. If it does go on, eventually say, again, I love you honey and I am so tired I need to sleep on this.

I actually got to a place with my mother where she didn't trigger me. She could say all kinds of stuff and I could just listen ( unless it got verbally abusive and I would not) Once I could just let her vent, the emotional storm just burned itself out sometimes. She knows my buttons- your wife does too. But that doesn't mean you have to add emotion to the situation.

[Stolen]

I just got this text from my wife:
“It's such a terrible, sickening, hurtful feeling knowing what goes on between you and them about me, and knowing you don't stand up for me. That you do the opposite. It hurts me very deeply. And also being lied to.

“You care more about pleasing them than you care about hurting me. Have you ever really sat down and thought about what that must feel like for me?”

The simplified version of this that I heard over and over and over again - "You never take my side. You always support those who are against me"    The absolutes were constant, and this comment would be in response to any and every disagreement we had, regardless how minor.

Any hint or perception of disagreement would immediately go code red.  I would wonder what show she had been watching for the last couple decades... .

[Radcliff]

Hey DB, I think Notwendy nailed it.  Abandonment fears.  She fears that if you are close to them you aren't close enough with her.  Does your wife also compete with D4 for your time/attention/affection?

I liked Notwendy's suggestion to try to get her to spill however she feels and just listen without reacting.  I've had some really good success with this technique with my wife.

Any chance that after you've heard all her feelings, later on and not in the same conversation most likely, you could get her advice on how to have a good relationship with your parents?  Maybe make it a more general discussion about how people can put their nuclear families first but still remain in contact with their FOO.  Kind of a life progression kind of thing.  Does she maintain regular contact with her FOO in a way you think is healthy? 

WW

[JoeBPD81]

Hi DB,

how are you holding up?

I had the same problem. Personally, I came to a point where I don't talk about her with anyone if it isn't anonymously. She still thinks I vent and I paint her black with my family and friends, and would never believe me. But to me it's important that I do what I say.

I got to ask, do you have that kind of relationship with your FOO? Where you complain about her, and they also talk bad? It's easy and human to fall into that. All our frustration has to have an exit somewhere. But as we see here time and time again, it doesn't benefit anyone. Your FOO care about you and of course will defend you against any abusive treatment.

Your wife knows about that. Not that you do, but that you have every right to do so. Even if you don't, she would feel she's manipulating and limiting you. Some days she would feel anger and the right to limit you like that, other days she would hate herself for doing so. There is no scenario where she is loved and accepted by your family, and on top of that, she knows she does that to herself. So reality is painful, shameful, guilty... .It's too much to handle, she can't deal with that, so she escapes making childish and irrational demands.

As a kid, I got very sick in cars, so I demanded my father ":)rive straight, don't take curves!"

Is there any affection of appreciation from your FOO towards her that you can built on? In my case, my GF is very polite and sweet, with strangers, and with my family, so they don't have any reason to think bad about her. But she is sure they hate her. It's a great fear or rejection, and judgement. "I hate myself first, so I'm ready for any judment from others". She has told me she avoids rejection at any cost. She paints, and she's very talented, but she wouldn't show her paintings to no one. Same with writing. And same with many aspects of her life.

The worst part is that she assumes that she would be rejected, and feels like the rejection already took place. So she starts resenting the people who rejected her... .Only in her head! Do you think there is some of that mixed in your sittuation?

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

We went to bed last night without really discussing any thing about my FoO. We had some financial topics that needed settled, so we did that. The weather here was sort of bad so her mother was around all night and that always provides a good distraction. In regards to the finances, which is our other favorite topic to argue about, there was a lot of “I know you just want to financially screw me over by not paying for what I need, but could you not do that this time?.” That kind of accusation followed by a request usually turns out ok, because as long as it’s something I am willing to support, if I just let the “I know you’re going to... .” piece roll off my back without JADE, I can commit to doing what I was going to do anyway and it all works out.

Anyway, in regards to the FoO stuff, JoeBPD you and others have asked the question of, “So, DO you vent to your parents?” And the short answer is, not really. My parents don’t usually want to go there, our time is short when we DO speak, and all the stuff we would possibly say is stuff we already know. There’s a lot of hurt, but my parents are remarkably understanding and supportive and still want to keep their distance from our relationship. The truth is, my parents have every reason to be really hurt - my wife (with my co operation, under threat) has denied ANY visitation with our D4. So here are these two people, my mom and dad, who have had this beautiful wonderful granddaughter, but for her entire life, have seen her only once, 3 years ago, when I “snuck” D4 out the door while my wife was getting her hair done. There is understandably some serious resentments, but no, I wouldn’t say it’s a venting session. My wife is, on this point, imagining things.

But I’m sure there ARE some valid concerns on my wife’s part. Back to the point about listening and being able to communicate without “Why” statements, and all the stuff that Meili initially said - that’s all really great stuff. I realized that I DO use the GIVE communication style a LOT, but I also still ask “Why” many times, so having both working against each other certainly prolongs any arguments we have. Sometimes I need to sit through a lot of rage to get to a point where GIVE makes sense. I’d really LIKE to hear if there’s some way I could address her concerns, but we’ve been at this for many many years, and the only solution that’s ever acceptable is complete NC with my entire FoO. Sometimes there’s a little give, but usually within 24 to 48 hours she’ll take it back and say “I’ve thought about it and there’s too much damage from what your FoO has done to me. I can’t accept that you’ll still have a relationship with them in any way after what they’ve done.”

I’m hopeful that one of these times, we can take things in a different direction, and STAY going in that different direction.

But that’s the update. Thank you again, everyone.

[Notwendy]

I'd like to build on Joe's suggestion to encourage her relationship with your FOO, if they have the ability to manage this. For my mother, if she has the sense that anyone was "on" to her issues - that person was painted black. While the issue now is your FOO, eliminated them doesn't solve the problem for good. With my mother - it included my father's FOO and others too along the way.

I recall her once announcing " This relative is on MY side" which to her meant this relative must have agreed with her point of view in some disagreement and this reflected how she experienced things in black and white- people are either on her side or not her side.

The worst crime of the century in my FOO was talking about her to anyone else. She is extremely sensitive to this and this is one reason she eavesdrops on other's conversations and snoops through people's things for evidence. I think Joe is correct in that she has some awareness of her causing issues and knowing people discuss her is shame triggering. If she does overhear any of it- a major dysregulation happens. It is understandable in a way- nobody would like to hear the things said about them when discussing some things about my mother. The problem is that- she causes this by her own behavior- the push/pull.

My father's FOO was not unwelcoming to her, but naturally they didn't like to see what was going on in the relationship and so, they didn't like her. I'm sure she knew that. One of her issues with me when I became an adult is that- I do know about her having BPD, and I know she feared my speaking about her to my father. Mostly he punished us or got angry at us if we dared to say anything. I wish the discussion of mental illness was brought into the light, but the expectation was that we had to maintain she was normal. It was like the Emperor Wears No Clothes,  we could not mention what we could see- and more than an expectation- it was the only way to be able to be in my parents' world at all. These posts help me understand this. Doing otherwise put my father in a no win situation. He could either on her side or not.

Maybe the conversation that could help is one with your parents- asking- how can we get past this triangle? In her world, they can not have you without her. For now, you don't want to make a decision about your marriage- and you want a relationship with your parents- and IMHO maybe the first step is to diffuse the triangle by getting your parents on "her side". It doesn't mean they accept dysfunction, but also that they learn some of the relationship tools for dealing with BPD. They love you and so they may be motivated to do this. I'd be honest with them- explain this situation and ask them to help you by building a relationship with her too.

Discussing anything emotional with your wife when she is dysregulating isn't helpful, but at a calm time, after you have listened to her feelings and fears, then propose a plan that includes your wish to have a relationship with your parents and is also reassuring to her ( if possible). Instead of "I want a relationship with my parents" it could be "I want US to have a relationship with my parents"  "My parents would really like to get to know you better". Keep your visits together with them short and structured to reduce the potential for drama. Do things your wife likes to do with them- go to lunch, the movies, anything. Your mother might even consider asking your wife out for coffee or lunch- a girls out day while you and your Dad take your D to the park. Your family may feel like they are actors at first, but they may be willing to do this to keep you and your D in their lives.

[Notwendy]

DB- we cross posted. When you wife accuses you of doing something, what she is really saying is her fears. Her fears may seem like fact to her, and this is why she says them like she does.

I know you just want to financially screw me over by not paying for what I need, but could you not do that this time?

Is really I am afraid that you just want to financially screw me over by not paying for what I need, but could you not do that this time?

It is good to see you let this roll off your back. Not reacting to this is good. You don't have to validate the invalid, but defending yourself is JADE. You could say " aw honey, that sounds scary- to feel you won't have what you need".

Try to hear what she feels, as it may be different from what she says.

[Notwendy]

What does she think your FOO has done to her? Get to the heart of this.

One thing I experienced with black and white thinking is that what is "black" can quickly be "white" again and vice versa. Your FOO is no different. She may agree to some contact, then disagree, then agree. The only long standing aspect of this could be the pattern, not the white or black state.

What is the "terrible thing your FOO has done"?

[walkinthepark247]

I've been dying to ask this. What the heck is a "FOO"? Is there some sort of acronym chart we should be using?

-Relative Newbie.

[JoeBPD81]

If I'm not mistaken, "Family of Origin"

If not, I'm reading and answering everything wrong!

[isilme]

Yes, sorry - FOO = Family of Origin. 

DB's family before he started his own, the one he grew up with, his W's in-laws. 

pwBPD do NOT like feeling someone is talking about them.  I think they know on some level that their behavior could be "talk-worthy" and assume that the only way anyone could know they act out is that we, their spouses, talk about them behind their backs.  They can't usually figure that others can witness how they act and see the results of their actions or how much slack their partners pick up for them and make their own judgments about how the pwBPD behaves.

yes, DB's W is afraid his family will say things about her that will make him choose to leave her.  She is not at this time accepting of the idea her OWN ACTIONS, regardless of any input from his FOO are what make him ask that question - stay or go.  She is not in a place where she can take responsibility for her actions or choices or reactions to her own feelings, and DB and his FOO are convenient always present scapegoats for her to blame. 

[DaddyBear77]

Yes, FoO is exactly what islime describes - “Family of Origin”

I’m taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture, and things are very eerily similar to how they were back in 2005. My wife left in 2005, looked up an ex-boyfriend, found out he lived on the other side of the country, and within about 3 months she packed up all her belongings and moved to his city.

Things seem to be headed toward a repeat.

Today’s text message included a quote, that basically said things have turned out to be a nightmare. She said she’s burnt out and she can’t “breathe” while she’s with me.

I’m running around to meetings with my new job this week but I thought I’d put that out there. It can’t be good signs.

[isilme]

DB,

Just curious - another question that came to mind after this new data is whether she's had contact with a "safe haven" again that would allow her to run away once more - and that she is projecting her desires to run away onto you, feeling safer blaming you and your FOO for the conflict to allow her "reasons" to run off?  Not necessarily an ex-boyfriend, but ANY person she'd think she can run off to live with so she can "breathe"? 

Is a lot of her anger simple projection of her feelings onto you, so she can justify having them herslef?

How will you react if she DOES decide to take off? 

Push - pull. 

[DaddyBear77]

Great questions islime and Notwendy

So let me quickly recap what I know my FoO has done. First of all, 13 years ago, at my brother’s wedding, they (my father, I think) made a comment about my brother’s wife, saying they “finally had a girl with the family last name” or something like that. My wife didn’t take my last name when we were married, so this was obviously some sort of slight against my wife. I was shocked and instead of making a scene, I immediately came over to my wife and put my arm around her to say “I heard that and it was wrong.” I didn’t address it with my parents later on but I should have. She took that as a sign I wasn’t on her side. This is the best example of a stupid insensitive comment that my father made. I’m sure that if we HAD addressed it he would have been embarrassed and apologized profusely. There have been a couple of other comments.

The other major offense is that my mother is very dismissive of concerns, sometimes very valid concerns. For example, my wife is extremely cautious when it comes to nutrition (nothing artificial if possible, try for organics, something I’m very much in line with). My mother is very “eh, it didn’t kill MY kids, it won’t kill yours” - this has triggered some REALLY big feelings in my wife, to the point where my wife considers this to be a life threatening situation (it’s not). But still, this difference could ALSO be discussed and dealt with if my wife was just willing to have a conversation. She’s not.

I completely agree that if we COULD have a conversation so much would be worked out. It’s just seeming like such an impossible task to get everyone to the table.

[Radcliff]

Insensitive comments?  Remarks about different parenting styles?  Heck, that's what inlaws are for!  Of course, easy for me to say, since it's my mother who makes the insensitive comments!  Seriously, though, what you're outlining is regrettable, it's less than optimal, but it sounds downright average.  Certainly nowhere close to justifying NC with a GD4!  DB, I know you know that, but I wanted to explicitly back you up on this.

WW

[Grey Kitty]

My wife left in 2005, looked up an ex-boyfriend, found out he lived on the other side of the country, and within about 3 months she packed up all her belongings and moved to his city.

Things seem to be headed toward a repeat.

It won't be the same as 2005 if it happens in 2017. Back then the only consequences involved a marriage that was ended/put on hold. Now you have a daughter. If she tries to repeat it, it will follow one of two paths:

• Run away (at least temporarily) from D4 and from you, leaving you effectively as a single dad.
• Take D4 away from you against your will when she leaves. (Pretty sure that violates a law or two, especially when she crosses state lines)

(I'm assuming you won't willingly let her take D4 away from you like this.)

If she takes the second path, you will have a serious legal battle if you ever want to see D4 again.

Can you do anything to prepare yourself for this kind of possibility?

[Notwendy]

It's an example of black and white thinking- and the victim triangle. Unfortunately, the "punishment" is much greater than the crime- cutting your parents off from their son and grand daughter would be like life in jail for stealing a piece of candy.

I can understand how your wife felt less appreciated because of the family name comment, but in context, that is also a reaction from a generation where it was expected for women to take their husbands's names. I did take my H's name but I can imagine my FIL might feel slighted if I did not- that was the thing to do in his generation. My MIL and mother were in the era where mothers were told bottle feeding was best. They thought it was strange that I chose to nurse my children- and said some things. Sadly, someone with BPD hears the hurt and disapproval, but doesn't have the ability to put themselves in the shoes of others- and such comments in context.

I wonder if an honest conversation with your parents- not with the intention of speaking poorly about your wife, but with the intention of repair- to say that she is sensitive to these kinds of comments- and asking them if they are willing to try to make her feel more accepted would help the situation?

While our reaction to these comments is that yes, in laws do this, and the punishment is exaggerated- this is not something that will help her to hear. She would think her deeply hurt feelings were being minimized. Maybe hearing her out- how terribly hurt she is- this is what she wants to have acknowledged. Sadly it seems there is some primal emotional pain in someone with BPD that gets reactivated with even the slightest thing. I think we have to keep in mind though that we didn't cause it initially and also can not fix it. But should we act on it? agree to carry out a "punishment" that is cruel and even immoral in a sense? Doesn't that diminish us and our values when we do?

"Honey, I understand how hurt you feel by some things my parents said and I would like to be able to repair the situation and have us have a relationship with them".

As to what she is saying now about the relationship and what it means - It sounds like dysregulation. Hard to make sense out of that.

" I can't breathe when I am with you" -- maybe say "I hear you honey, what do you think would make this better for you?" and see what she says- without reacting or taking immediate action to fix things in the moment.

[Notwendy]

To second what GK said- and I am not a lawyer.

Be very careful about what she wants you to do if she "can't breathe". I know there are state laws about abandoning a family. If you move out at her request " to let her breathe"- this charge may apply to you. If she moves out and leaves you with D4- then she also has done this.

I have heard of parents who have taken a child across state lines and it has been a long legal battle to get the child back.

Before you do anything to "give her space" or if you think she plans to take your D out of state, I would consult a lawyer so you are aware of the laws in place and how to navigate that. Do not leave- at her request- and set yourself up for an abandonment charge before consulting a lawyer.

If she takes off and leaves the child with you, then it may be legally in your favor when it comes to custody.

But from my own experience, my mother would threaten to leave often. I know of one time when she actually did take off for a few days.  But the truth was, she was completely financially dependent on my father and could not do this all on her own and so she did not follow through on a divorce as far as I know of. Your wife is dependent on you, and unless there is some way she supports herself or finds someone to do that, I don't see how she could seriously do this. Just don't let her talk you into doing something where there could be legal ramifications for you.

[isilme]

I think it may help to have the conversation with the parents, but also know as with H's parents, that such talks often don't get much changed - you are always their child and that minimizes how serious you can be taken.  At Easter, I asked H's mother to please clear off some stairs so her son, who has diabetic neuropathy and has trouble getting up and down the stairs, could safely come stay.  She stores excess groceries and cooking pans and pet care supplies on about 3/4 of the stair widthwe try to delicately come up and down them, but for H that is more difficult since he can't always feel his feet or get them to move when he wants.  Instead, we chose to come in the morning so we could grill food the evening before to bring down to them and found the stairs totally blocked off as a passive-aggressive act when we arrived.  I get to be the "bad guy" Thanksgiving and move all the crap if they've not done so, or we will need to stay somewhere else.  Yuck.  Parents sometimes hit a point where they feel "I'm just being honest", or "I am too old to be polite anymore" and "I am older and know best" is just commonplace and intractable.

AND, with some of the "offenses" taking place over a decade ago, I think this is not going to be seen as helpful by the wife overall.  One of my H's favorite irrational demands is that I "go back in time and not screw up or allow someone else to screw up".     It may make future interactions less trying, but your W is going to be on edge, looking for an offense. 

I DO think that a serious discussion about, "yes, I know things my mom says can bother you, BUT, that is who she is and overall does not hurt us day-to-day."  Maybe even share things your mother or dfather have done/said that have bothers YOU as well, but explain that you forgive family (to a point, but to me these family comments seem rather mundane and not like those you'd see on the BPD-parents boards).  I think she needs to feel you are her ally, even if you are in contact wiht your parents, and learn that loving her and wanting her to be happy is not exlusive of loving your FOO as well, and not wanting to cut ties with them and deprive your kids of grandparents.  She needs empathy, likely, and can't see that of all the people in the world you are likely the most on her side.