Almost right out of a script from a Lundy Bancroft book.

[pearlsw]

It isn't betraying your wife,  it's working towards a solution for your family to keep everyone safe.  
T

I agree wholeheartedly. This betrayal theme is well worn and time to put it to rest. Stop letting it trip you up. You aren't betraying, she just wants to keep her bad acts secret to avoid the shame/embarrassment and blame it all on you. Don't let that be the frame for anything. Ever. If she wants no more shame and embarrassment she has to stop this stuff and move forward. At that point she can put it behind her and take her share of credit for helping the family get better. You all win if you stay on the same team and work together. Can you get her on the team? I hope so! You are right on the cusp of change! Stay strong and believe in yourself!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DaddyBear77]

Radcliff, you've got everything you need to take this to the next level. It all inside yourself.

You'll never convince your wife that you're on her side. You're not responsible for what she thinks of you. You have no control over that.

All those vacations you ruined? Bullsh_t. When she tells you that you purposely started a fight or caused a problem... .seriously? Was she not just there 5 minutes ago when she PICKED a fight? She felt bad, she needed a way to feel better, and fighting with you or hitting you is the quickest path to relief.

You just lost your job. So did I. You've got fewer than 30 days to land another one or else. This place in life really sucks, doesn't it? It's made me realize what my REAL responsibility is to the family, and it's NOT "keeping the peace". You go out. You make money. You move it around to where it needs to go to keep the family sheltered fed and clothed.

You have not been placed here in life to be your wife's emotional caretaker. Stop it now or else I promise you it will take you down and everyone else with you.

I know personally what kind of situation you're in. I live it every day. It sucks. I suck at getting things done. But now is the time, Radcliff. I know that last 3 miles of the hike out of the Grand Canyon. All I could think about was getting to the top and having that cold iced tea. And it was such an easy 10 miles down. This is only 6 up. Why is it so hard? Well, the place you're in now? It's that, all over again. It's easy to get down.  Go show yourself that you can get up.

You can do it.

[Radcliff]

Thank you all for the broad input, especially the moderation on the restraining order, and pointers to the approach with the brother.  We will likely be together all day today.  I will read John Galt now.

One thing that I'm struggling with is struggling with consequences other than the restraining order.  I am realizing that the death of the relations ship is another one that she may want to avoid more than she lets on.  This is confusing to me because I am a literal guy and when she says the marriage is Worthless to her it's hard not to take that at face value.

Any thoughts on other consequences? 

Thank you all again.  I'd call you all out by name and be more specific but am typing on my phone

RC

[Skip]

Tighten the noose:

1. Please stop or I will call the police.  
2. Filling police report.  
3. Working with brother
4. Restraining order
5. Call police

Other ideas.

[Radcliff]

Ha!  Thanks for dumbing it down for this engineer.  We have special needs but occasionally can be useful in society   seriously, that was helpful.

Any other suggestions welcome too!

RC

[Skip]

You might add in the list, sending daughter to therapist in the list. Most likely the therapist will want to meet with the parents and explain how this is affecting daughter.

[Radcliff]

We had a strong talk this morning about DV, and I stayed on message. 

A little later my wife tried to prevent me from taking a shower in the master bathroom, calling it "hers."  She did not get physical, but I was worried enough to start recording.

My wife and were taking in the bedroom about the bathroom incident.  I said if she did another controlling thing like that again, I would call her brother.  She scoffed and ridiculed and started in on me about recording her when she hasn't assaulted me recently and had promised not to.  I said that I had recorded today because her actions and demeanor were identical to that before previous assaults.  She then called for D12 to join us.   I started recording and told her not to call again for D12.  She did.  D12 came, and my wife ridiculed me in front of her about DV and D12 said I was being ridiculous.

It is this behavior in front of D12 that finally gave me the fire to stop this.  I have called her brother and left a message.

I am sitting in the park 1/2 mile from my house.  My wife just called me and said she would love to talk to someone about domestic violence.  She said she had found a couple of things and that I have blood on my hands too.  I cannot imagine what she is talking about but am pretty worried.  What could it be? That is of course what she wants.  This situation is starting to feel out of control.  I'll take some deep breaths on the walk back home and Will get calm.

RC

[pearlsw]

Sounds like bluffing and lying to undermine you, trying to keep control. Thought she said she was already talking to someone about her DV? That was likely a bluff/lie too.

How did the brother respond? Were you only able to leave a message? What next if he won't/can't help?

 

[flourdust]

She said she had found a couple of things and that I have blood on my hands too.  I cannot imagine what she is talking about but am pretty worried.  What could it be?

It’s projection. My ex would do this, too - accuse me of whatever she was guilty of, usually throwing my own language back at me. Don’t worry about it - even if she does have a legit concern, your goal is to get everything out into the light. Don’t let her use false equivalences to shut you down.

[Skip]

She said she had found a couple of things and that I have blood on my hands too.  I cannot imagine what she is talking about but am pretty worried.  What could it be?

Embrace this!

If I'm doing anything, I want help to identify it and fix it. I'm ready to open that door with your brother. Let's fix this whole thing... .

[Radcliff]

Skip, HQ, flourdust, Pearl, Turkish, TH, heartandwhole, DaddyBear,
Thank you.  I feel like we are making progress.  Your support is making this possible.

We cooled off last night, went to dinner, and had another tough conversation.  She is not ready to accept responsibility for ongoing things, in particular for drawing my daughter in yesterday.  I asked if she could just look at online resources with me so we could start to share an understanding of what behavior is out of bounds.  She asked if we could just be positive.  That's when I remembered the Equality Wheel.  I suggested that we look at that together, then call the evening a success and go to bed together.  She agreed.  HQ, you rock!  You made a difference last night!

Earlier in the evening, my wife asked me a direct question about whether I'd called her brother.  I couldn't lie, so the cat got out of the bag before he called me back, and she got to him first.  They talked for an hour.  I don't know all they talked about, and I'm sure my wife didn't tell him all she'd done, but I trust him, and believe he is likely to have been cautious about validating the valid and he certainly gave her empathy and love that she needed.  I got a text from him this morning saying he wasn't comfortable talking on the phone with me, but that if there was anything he needed to know to help my wife, it would be OK for me to text or e-mail him.  I'm going to paste a draft to him below, and would value your feedback.

I've been trying to think of other options besides the brother, which has required me to think about what a solution needs to have.  This is what I think we need:

1.  Accountability to outsiders
2.  Education about the abusive mindset for my wife
3.  DV expert oversight

My wife wants us to solve things in MC, as I've continued to press on not hiding DV, she's gone from "don't mention it" to "it can't be the focus," which is progress.  She doesn't want the MC to get sour on her -- she wants that to be a balanced thing.  Understandable.  So my latest idea, if we can't get the brother, is to get three folks -- two DV experts, and a marriage counselor.  All three need to be able to talk to each other.  We could get the DV experts from a local agency offering a certified batterer's class, but she wouldn't necessarily have to enroll in one (I'd like to get her into one, but think if I'm rigid on that it might limit us too much).  The experts would provide the three components that I've mentioned above.  I'd value your thoughts on this potential solution.

My lawyer started drafting the restraining order request earlier this week, and it will probably be ready for my review today.  I'm glad to have it in process, but your help here has been crucial help me keep things moving forward without leaping too fast, to keep me balanced and to gain some time to understand, process, and develop more options.

Here's my proposed e-mail to her brother:

Dear [brother],

Thanks for being there for [wife] last night.  We are indeed in a tough spot.  There are a couple challenges to our situation that I was thinking you might be able to help us with.  I've come to understand that the physical stuff is really only a part of what's going on, and out of kilter nonphysical behaviors are really the underlying issue.  We're still well in the red zone on those things.  The fact that [wife] is actively drawing the children into the conflict is particularly alarming to me.  I've been talking to people as well as looking at things like the following to understand where we are:

www.thehotline.org/healthy-relationships/relationship-spectrum/
www.thehotline.org/is-this-abuse/abuse-defined/

A big challenge here is that the domestic violence folks are largely "exit" experts.  Figuring out how to fix the problem and preserve the relationship is not a well worn path.  But accountability outside the relationship is key.  One of the thoughts I had was that as a more objective person who [wife] trusts, you might be able to help us agree on what things are in bounds and out of bounds, and might provide is with a "safe" accountability option.  The most ambitious thought would be for you and [brother's wife] to fly out here, talk about it, and have you paired with me as an "accountability partner" and [wife] paired with [brother's wife] to keep in touch over time, like a weight loss partner.  (In case you are wondering, this is a "thing," I didn't make it up

I know that's a whole lot to ask, especially of [brother's wife].  Some form of it with just you might be good.  Or if none of that sounds workable, I am also trying to develop something similar using professionals here.  [wife] is very reluctant to work with professionals, so that could be difficult, but I'm starting to explore it today.  Whatever happens, the most important thing is for [wife] to have you to lean on, to know she has a safe place and someone who is on her side.  She is very reluctant to talk to you about this, and only called you because she knew I had, so it might be good to proactively reach out to her to see how she's doing on a regular basis.

Thanks for your understanding and support with all of this.  I'm sorry to be bringing this to you, but am grateful that you're there and are so solid & loving.

RC

[wendydarling]

Hey RC, I'd start with, in your own words ... .you love your wife deeply and family dearly and you are working hard to make positive change happen to keep your family together, that's your ultimate aim and desire and why you are asking for his support. How can anyone say no to that? Repeat and refresh  

WDx

[Radcliff]

Thanks WDx!  Nice to hear from you.  I'll tune it as you suggested.

I talked to a woman this morning who runs a batterer intervention program and also does therapy for victims.  I have a personal appointment with her next Wednesday.  That will be my first contact with someone who does intervention.  I think her perspective is likely to be closer to what I want/need than DV advocates predominantly focused on assisting with exits, so I am looking forward to what I can learn from her.

RC

[Skip]

I think you need to be very focused. You cover a lot of topics and water down the domestic violence - it may come across as you cried wolf on the DV - remember, this is the narrative that your wife is selling.  

The fact that he doesn't want to talk to you and said he is happy to receive information to help your wife... . could be a blow off.  She may have said that you are manipulating with false claims of DV.


Dear [brother],

Nicety - Thanks for being there for [wife] last night. yada, yada

Problem - We are indeed in a tough spot.  There have been 25 domestic violence event in the last six months, I've left the home of stayed in a hotel __ times, and there were two incidents that involved the police. Also concerning is that  [wife] is actively  involving the children in the conflict.

The ask - The professionals who I have talked to strongly recommend accountability partners in family or very close friend - to be confidants and to mentor each of us (male to male, female to female) as we work through resolving problems with professional down here.

Is this a role you and ____ can take on to help us?

RC

(general idea, not an actual draft)

[Radcliff]

Skip, thanks, that is helpful -- I will focus my message as you suggest.

RC

[Radcliff]

Hello all,

No great progress this weekend.  My wife wants to bury this in MC, and is not expressing remorse or empathy.  She views this as a 50/50 responsibility thing.  I've been stressed and distracted, and she has noticed this.  She texted me this morning to ask if I was going to hurt myself and to say that there was hope.  I have no idea if this means she cares, or if it was gaslighting.  She has been gaslighting a fair bit.  While I do sometimes wish I could disappear or just lie in a hammock in the warm sun for a few days, I do not have any inclination to hurt myself.

I have a meeting with a batterer program leader who also does victim therapy today at 4pm (and other woman in the same role with a different program on Wednesday).  I'm looking forward to what I can learn there.  When I set up the meeting for today, I told her that I'm trying to save the relationship, and I'll reiterate that at the beginning of the session.

I was with my wife all weekend, with no private computer time, so just now had a chance to draft a message to her brother.  I am going to sit on it for a while, planning to send late this afternoon or early evening.  Thank you all for the help -- I shortened it considerably as you suggested.  The draft is below.

RC

Dear [brother],

Thanks for being there for [wife].  I love her deeply and want to do everything possible to keep our family together.  That is why I was asking for your help.  We are in a tough spot.  [wife] assaulted me 25 times in 9 months, and the abuse has gone on much longer than that.  These assaults included a blow to the base of my skull hard enough that I had a headache the next day, and tackling me in the bedroom, bathroom, and in front of the house.  Beyond assault, there have been dozens of other incidents.  I am desperately trying to get her to agree to see a domestic violence expert, someone who is trained to intervene to break domestic violence cycles.

I have learned that having the help and support of family is critical in recovering from these things.  [wife] sees me as an adversary when it comes to addressing the problem head on, which is where I can use some support.  One way you could help is by encouraging her to see an expert so we can get some help making a plan. Another way is for you and perhaps you and [brother's wife] to act as "accountability partners."  Accountability partners in the family or very close friends can act as  confidants to mentor each of us (male to male, female to female) as we work through resolving problems with professional down here.

I know these are big asks, but our family is at stake, and I am trying every possible avenue to get all of us to a healthy and happy place.

RC

[Skip]

Much better.

[Radcliff]

Thanks, Skip, I appreciate the guidance and feedback!

I read John Galt's Success Story posts, a thread linked from there, and his raw posts from around New Year's 2005-2006 when I think things pivoted for him.  Basically, he did prework on himself, then mustered the courage to give his wife a hard choice.  I think that is where I'm headed.  The trick will be to finesse it with the right amount of strength and humanity, and make sure I've done enough prework.

RC

[Skip]

That's the message. 

[Harley Quinn]

You got this RC  


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