See previous thread here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317050.0

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I had been feeling some pressure between the local DV world and the bpdfamily world, but after reading Galt, rereading some of the replies here, and talking a bit more to local folks, everything is starting to converge.  It's still a little frightening, since either way this breaks, I'm looking at the end of things as I know them, but at least things are seeming like they agree.  At least, every source I've talked to is helping me to form a coherent picture, except for my wife.  My reality with her is still very different, and that is so mind-bending.  I suppose I just need to accept that.

The conversation with the DV therapist/interventionist today was very helpful.  She really seemed to know her stuff, and put me at ease.  This sounds silly, but her office suite had a beach theme, which is a special theme for my wife and I, and that seemed like the kind of place I could see my wife.  It looked homey, not sterile or rough.  Yes, I'm hopeless, I know.  One of my specific questions was about MC, and she said timing of when it is OK to start depended on the person, and two things needed to happen -- my wife would need to accept responsibility, and she would need to acknowledge the impact that the abuse had had on me.  That second part was a surprise, but it resonated with me, because I asked my wife last night to acknowledge this, and got nothing.  One of the other things the woman said to me is that finessing this so it goes over easy is not going to be possible.  I am still digesting that, but know it was important for me to hear.

I'll be working on flying straight and level for the next few days while continuing to prepare.  Thank you all for investing in me and believing in me.

RC

Hi RC,

Are you getting all of the emotional support you need at this time? Do you need help with facing your fears?

Between your marriage/job issues/and your mother's illness this is a lot on your shoulders all at once!

-p.

RC, I’ve mentioned this several times but there are several parallels between our stories. Something I have realized is exactly what Skip is saying - the desire to change and look at her role is NOT a going to come from intellectual conversations. My wife is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. She tells me she’s a genius all the time, and on this point I believe her. However, nothing I’ve said in all the sleepless nights and wasted days has ever changed her.

The last hope I had was when both her mom and her previous therapist had a focused effort on trying to get her out of the depths of depression and eating disorder. She could see she was literally dying and she couldn’t afford to wait for someone else to take the blame.

I’m starting to think that my wife (and yours) really needs to see that the end is happening - end of taking the abuse, end of hiding the abuse, end of the secrets, and maybe even the end of the marriage - she needs to feel like she’s dying before she’ll save herself. And then, once she feels like her world is coming to and end, she’ll beg you to stop it from happening - she will ask you to save her from the end of the world, and you’ll have to say No. And on the one hand, she knows coming to you and asking for this is a viable option because you’re the one tearing it down. Every single time you’ve stepped in that direction, she begs, you stop. This time, you’ll say “No.” A simple No. And you’ll repeat it. Lovingly, kindly, you’ll say No. Inside you’ll scream and panic and think a hundred times about stopping.

Don’t stop. No.

Then, to add insult to injury, she’ll leave you alone and talk to someone else. Go prep her brother and everyone else with all the info they’ll need to be the ones that amplify your messsge when your wife finally goes to them

Blaise Aguirre speaks of the difference between habilitation and rehabilitation. Its an important point here. He also speaks of learned behavior vs manipulation. Another point.

I'd watch the video - I've viewed it at least 6 times and I learn something each time - he shares a lot of insight, even in his digressions.

Remember my video of Charli and the husky attacking her? Charli never fights back and never yields. Every time a dog come after her, they don't know how to deal with this and the aggression ends. I've watched that video many times as it shows me the difference between domination and strength.  Your wife lives in a world where domination rules. Strength is the antidote and it looks nothing like domination.

The is a reason why everything is the way it is. Its a complex puzzle, but there is a path out. You have to stand your ground and you have to get a lot of daylight in there. She may follow or she may walk... .the hard part is that if she follows, it will likely happen after all her learned behavior is found to be futile.

Careful on waiting too long to respond to the brother - any cry of urgency is defeated by slow response. I again encourage you to move on this and not try to script it all. The scripting will be read as manipulation by all involved. Note: She didn't script, she picked up the phone and cut your effort off at the knees.

It sounds like your getting advice from a lot of resources and its important to be clear on one vision - following everyone's guidance might get you at cross purposes. All three can have great, but different  strategies, and you can't necessarily follow everyone's advice. I know you know this, I'm just reminding you.

My question is whether you can do the brother/daylight/accountability partner immediately following an RO and removing her from the house... .

Your wife blocked you on the brother and whatever she said, led him to say to you "he wasn't comfortable talking on the phone with you, but that if there was anything he needed to know to help my wife, it would be OK for me to text or e-mail him". We don't know what she said, but it sounds like she elicited him to help her against you.

I think whatever she said + the pending RO which would separating her from the kids, will have her family quickly behind their daughter/sister to fight the RO - not help you.

And btw, suggesting a 10 day pause in a traumatic time like this will be gas on fire.

It sounds like the professional advice you are getting says that she is recalcitrant enough that you need to play hardball.

This may mean that a letter to the brother may need to be explaining the dv attacks (as you did in the draft) and to explain that you took this drastic action (RO) because your wife blocked all reasonable actions including involving him/his to be accountability partners.

Hello all,

I'm grateful for your help on this.  A rapidly evolving situation is not my strength, and my abilities are pretty severely diminished further by stress and anxiety.  I'm writing an awful lot, and asking for a lot of decision support help, and regret having to ask for this much help.  I'm completely good with making and owning my own decisions, but feel like my ability to assess the big picture and weigh different factors is completely shot.  Thanks for helping me through this.  I am looking forward to getting better and resuming my contributions to return a multiple on your investment to bpdfamily.

Agreed.  My task is to gather perspectives and create and own one plan.  Every advisor has only a piece of the picture, and I'm on an odyssey I will only do once, and need to get right.

No.  Once the RO is served, things would go to hell in a handbasket immediately.  I would have to establish a safe household, make sure the kids are OK, and then see what things look like.  The idea was to have the brother in law try to talk her into at least an intro meeting with a batterer program head/therapist before serving the RO, in hopes of avoiding the RO.  I'm growing concerned that my hopes there may be unrealistic.

Yes, I expect that she minimized what she's done.  She has told me that he thought I was crazy, but she has also said that about many other people, so I think there's some fabrication going on to manipulate me.  flourdust, this background addresses your questions as well:

I have a pretty close relationship with her brother-in-law.  Her father died when she was four, and he, though only three years older, is the closest thing she has to a father figure.  He and I have enough similarities that we enjoy long conversations at family get togethers.  I expect him to look out for his sister's interests before mine, and in my Boy Scout caretaking way, that is why I contacted him when she was hospitalized (he and I are both Eagle Scouts  

When I spoke to my brother-in-law the night my wife was hospitalized, I explained that I thought she had BPD.  He did not seem to have a hard time believing this, and described his awareness of BPD from understanding his own wife's FOO, and also described some incidents of their parent's behavior when they were kids.

What do I expect from my brother-in-law?  I expect there is a small chance he could intervene and help avoid an RO.  I expect there is a good chance that if I send a message giving the background, that he will believe me enough not to validate the invalid, helping to avoid her family becoming a pool of ill-informed animosity that fuels a campaign against me.  This would increase the small chance that she might come around and seek treatment post-RO.

I would like to think that I could go for the long shot -- get my brother-in-law to talk her into intervention therapy without an RO.  But my wife made an unsolicited remark again last night about staying away from her family.  If she suspects my involvement with her family, she will have a very strong reaction.  If she finds out while I'm out of state visiting my Mom, I worry about what will happen.

My best hope post RO is that her family gives her emotional and decision support, but does not buy into a narrative that she has been wronged and I am a villain.  I expect my brother-in-law to say, "What do you want to do here, and how can I help you?" not, "How can I help you and RC save the marriage?"

Skip, sorry, please clarify your meaning here.  Clearly, telling the brother-in-law to wait until I get back from my trip to see my mother is a non-starter.  But do you also mean that I can't wait until November 7 to escalate and serve the RO?

I have been face-to-face with two DV advocates, and two batterer intervention and victim therapists.  Last Friday, in four separate conversations, four people told me that it appeared that I was doing all the work to recover from DV, that my wife was doing nothing, and that unless she was willing to do the work, there would be no recovery of the relationship.  The batterer/victim therapist who I met Monday is the most centered/balanced/experienced voice I've heard so far.  She said to just serve the RO.  She was worried that attempting to have a final conversation with my wife to pressure her into intervention would be both futile and a risk to my safety.  I'm not necessarily going to hide behind that, though; if there's a reasonable path to have the conversation with my wife, I'm willing to do it.  I'm less concerned about my safety than the therapist.  Things get simpler if I let go of the trip to see my mother.

Yes, I think you've opened up an important alternative course for me to consider.

Questions I need to resolve:
1.  Do I attempt to involve the brother before serving the RO?
2.  If I assume that there is no way to avoid the RO, do I have to escalate and serve the RO this week, or can it wait until Nov 7?  If I serve the RO this week, I will have to cancel the trip to see my mother.  Serving the RO will be cataclysmic anyway, so do I lose by waiting a week?  Does it diminish the chances my wife will do therapy and come back to the marriage?

I'll need to own the answers to these questions myself, but on Question 1, I'm having trouble objectively assessing the success/failure tradeoffs, and everyone's perspective would be helpful.  Likewise, on #2, I'm having a hard time being objective about the impact of delaying RO service by a week, and having a hard time with the idea of canceling a trip to see my mother (she is declining, so waiting a couple of months to reschedule is a big deal).

If anything is becoming obvious to you that is not yet to me, feel free to hit me over the head with it

Thank you all,

RC

You could go with a sequence like "here is what happened, I've being blocked on all avenues of help, can you help us" note and copy your wife. If she blows, file the restraining order. All of this needs to take president over visiting your mom... .and that sucks.

These capitalizes on the momentum, stresses the sense of urgency, and frankly, will make the filing of the RO seem right and preserve your integrity with the family.

Skip, HQ, and flourdust, thanks for the rapid replies.  Having three perspectives is super valuable.

HQ,  you are dialed in to where I'm at.  Your reply nailed it on the facts and the emotions, and spoke to me well.  My mom can still travel, so that's an option.  I will not feel right unless I make an attempt with the brother first, though I know it's a long shot.

I hadn't thought to copy my wife.  She would certainly blow.  That would give me justification for the RO, but I think the true path is likely to send a note to the brother and see how he responds, and if he is not willing to engage, to have one more conversation with her where I tell her what I need, but don't push or threaten.

Skip, thanks, and thanks to HQ, and flourdust for your similar remarks.  Yup, I am coming to accept that after resisting for a while.

Not exactly.  I have accepted that my good relationship with them may end forever.  But if I want a chance to save the relationship, it is very helpful if they are not putting a lot of energy behind my wife with a false impression of what's going on.  She has five living brothers, so that's a lot of potential energy pushing in an unproductive direction if they are ill-informed.  Even if the relationship can't be saved, if she has support for a warped reality it could influence custody resolution.

Thank you all for the help.  I feel like I have clarity now.  I will have to manage things for a few more days and then act.  RO request should go in this afternoon.  I need to mull over whether I feel safe enough to send the message to her brother before or after receiving the RO.

RC

HQ, I will remember that, thanks for the reminder.  I may swing by the police station before any tough discussions with my wife and give them a copy just so they know what's going on.  

I may decide not to explicitly discuss an RO with her.  This would help on the physical safety issue, but more because of advice I received from the DV batterer/victim therapist.  She said my wife might feel super threatened by it, and appear to play along, but then reverse course.  Two batterer program heads I talked to said that "volunteers" typically don't work out well because they don't have any oversight and aren't as committed as if they had received a court order.

I may just say what I need -- enthusiastic participation by her in intervention as well as therapy, with transparency to me, and see if she goes for it.  With her brother, I may verbally say (if he talks to me) that getting her to agree to intervention may feel unattractive to her, but is much better than other options.

RC

Hello all,

The RO was approved yesterday.  I will send the message to my brother-in-law by midday today, aiming to talk to him this afternoon/evening and have one last conversation with my wife this evening.  (My lawyer advised me not to send the message to my brother-in-law until the RO was approved, and she and I agreed that I couldn't risk setting off a firestorm without the RO in hand.)  

My wife initiated conversations last night.  When she said that nothing had really happened, I described four assaults in detail, three of which had happened in the room we were in.  I calmly but firmly said that I was not willing to invest more in the relationship unless she was willing to get professional help on the DV, she took responsibility for all that had happened, and she acknowledged all the damage she had done to me.  She was unmoved, and kept pointing back at me.  Assuming my lawyer has no objections, I plan to contact the police department to let them know what I'm doing, in case things get out of hand tonight and I need to call them.  I am going to talk to my lawyer to see if we can get the RO served tomorrow if things don't go well tonight.

Thank you all.  There is no way I could have gotten to this point without your help.  I am not happy about what's about to happen, but I'm glad to be acting rather than feeling trapped, and the discussion and time to plan has helped me to feel like I'm on the path I need to be on, and for the right reasons.

RC

p.s.  Oh my.  My wife just texted me, saying, "Here's a link to an anger management class for you... ."

She also has recently told me that I'm a psychopath, and she has talked to many people about me and they all agree that I have serious problems.

We are certainly not on the same page!


 

Hi RC, Wow. These are big, important steps and life changes! I want to extend my support and compassion for all it took to get to this point.

I hope your night is not too terrible! We'll be thinking you and wishing you all the best to get through this rough day! 

What have you told your daughter?
Are you planning to email the brother right after she is served?
Have you protected the bank accounts? Will the door locks be changed?

What if she drains the accounts in retaliation?

I would give your daughter a note. It will be a bit hysterical when you are talking - when she calms she can read it.

OK. Just remember, if she takes all the money, even with a court order, it will take time to get the money back - months.


I was saying, "in addition to". Not everything you say will sink in. You probably need to explain that there has been physical abuse.


Are you assuming that mom won't call her the minute she gets served and tell her that you are manipulating the court and kicking her mom out of the house with no place to stay and blocking her from seeing her children.


Interested to hear what others say. I think I would also write it down for D12 and answer the questions she will surely have?

Where is mom?
Is she ever coming back?
When is she coming back?
When can we see her?
Are you getting a divorce?
Why did you do this to us?

Remember, you wife will likely get to the kids and say that you are doing something wrong.

I would anticipate that your wife will go far and wide to tell a story of you abusing her and take preemptive action. Get the story out before she does.

That is a tough age. My mom walked out on us at about that age - 11. She was falling apart while my dad was dying of cancer. I was pretty upset and told her if she left I didn't need her anymore. I was scared because we were all too young to drive him to the hospital. It set the tone for our relationship never really clicking after that. In time I understood she was falling apart, but still, that it got to that point - I still remember those moments. They were life defining. I worry how much blame is gonna be put on you. Your mom going away for any reason is obviously pretty scary for a kid. They will likely be begging you to make the pain stop too.

So, I'd get in there and get the themes and narrative set. This is not about punishment, it is about safety. It is about healing. It is about the family getting better, etc. They need a lot of love! A sense of hope and possibility might make it all seem less scary. Letting them know when and how they can see her and that being made as okay for them as possible is in the mix. Oh, poor kids. But it's gotta happen.

The D12 especially could be very upset with you, especially since the mom has mocked you for calling this DV and she went along with the mom diminishing it. Are you gonna take the kids at home to a family therapist to explain what is happening? They also need some age appropriate education on DV so they can understand the big picture.

Take good care! Pulling for all of you!