BPDw and parental attachment

[LightAfterTunnel]

So my BPDw’s parents were in town staying with us for the last 3 weeks. Her relationship with her parents has been rocky in the past to say the least. But over the last years my BPDw has begun to idolize her father to the point that I can’t be around them when they are together. It is quite obvious that her father is narcissistic and at times I would even describe him as malignant. In the past, before I was painted completely black, my wife had recounted various childhood stories that were scary about how her father treated her. To me it is obvious that she is always searching for his validation and puts him on a pedestal. This I have come to understand... .

However last night, after dinner, a heated discussion began regarding gun control laws etc (I won’t get political). My father in law began to rant how guns only help protect from those doing harm etc. I countered by saying less guns equals less killings. My BPDw came into the discussion and openly supported her father’s side? This is the same woman that is vehemently against guns , even more so than me, and countless times in the past has openly mocked the same argument her father was using.

This “about face” shocked me. I am used to seeing her extremes in painting me black but I don’t know if I’ve ever witnessed such dissociation (don’t know if this is the right word choice here) in idolization.

Has anyone else witnessed something like this? Is this common in a BPD child searching for validation from the “abuser”?

[formflier]

A couple years back we made a decision to move closer to my wife's parents.  It was during a relative "good patch" in our relationship.

Anyway... .the close proximity lead to lots of "rewriting" history about who her family was.

The most extreme example I can share is that my wife had such concerns about her sister (at one point in time) that in my wife's will there is a clause saying... .basically... ."under no circumstances is (name of sister) to be a guardian to my children, the court should appoint a guardian if (name of sister is only surviving family).  At that point in time, my wife and I were of one mind about who the sister was... .sisters values... .and those values were NOT ok for our family.

Fast forward 10 years.  The sister was "tricked" into doing the bad things, was misunderstood, is a victim... .has reformed... .etc etc.

From my point of view she has gotten worse.

The "groupthink" of her parents regarding who is black and who is white... .is powerful.

By my choice... I'm estranged from her parents and the rest of her family.  A couple of times I've exchanged a text when there was no other choice regarding some childcare issues, other than that... I don't socialize with them... at all.

My advice to you is that next time the parents are around and a view point comes up, I would ask directly if you can share your viewpoint (before sharing it).  Ask directly "how" he came up with the viewpoint, vice what the viewpoint is.  Stay calm.

If they say they don't want to hear from you... that's your cue to leave... .people like that don't deserve your time.

Do your part to "take the heat" out of the conversation.

Good luck!

FF

[Red5]

Has anyone else witnessed something like this? Is this common in a BPD child searching for validation from the “abuser”?

@LightAfterTunnel,

Yes, have seen it in action many many times, .also; the "re-writing of history", in real time.

WARNING, remember what they say about "blood being thicker"... .use extreme caution when this is happening in your close proximity, and be advised, do not think that your sig other will have loyalty to you when they are trying to garner said validation/attention (approval) from the "patriarch", or else "fahjur" figure, quite the contrary/quandary, and no.

I used to not know any better, I was a grown up, I was cultured, I have sailed around the world (5 times), I have studied the "arts"... .one (me) would think that I could hold/participate in a thoughtful, and inspiring conversation in the company of the "royals"... .but no, turned out I was just another shrub to them... .live and learn I guess.

Life is much easier, as I now know my place, and that is out in the "shed" with the other two #1 & #2 soninlaw shrubs... .during the big "family" get together... .

The hollowdaze approach, better get my mind right !

Lol !

v/r Red5

[PeteWitsend]

the parental attachment thing is (or was) bizarre to me.  then I read more about triangulation.

My wife actually emigrated to the US as a grad student and when I met her, was open about her rocky relationship with her parents, their flaws, and what not.  she had a rough childhood due solely to poor decisions they made, repeatedly.

yet I see now that because I am "the guy" she lives with, the blame game has shifted from them to me, and they're her allies against me. 

she's taken steps to have her mom move here, and planned for her dad as well. I have what I consider to be legit concerns about: 1) the likelihood they'll cause chaos in our lives, and 2) be a huge financial burden on us, esp. my FIL who hasn't had a steady or legal job in years, and openly shortchanged me once, in a pretty sleazy way. 

yet, my concerns are shouted down because my mom got her a vacuum cleaner for xmas last year... .

[formflier]

yet I see now that because I am "the guy" she lives with, the blame game has shifted from them to me, and they're her allies against me. 
 

Exact same thing happened in my r/s.  When she got close to her parents... .things "flipped"... I just happened to be the guy in a r/s with her.

FF

[Enabler]

A great read on this topic is Toxic Parents, even the preview on google books is enough to get some insight. In summary, we're genetically programmed to love our parents regardless of what we do, else we would run off and be eaten by a lion. Your child in an adults body (BPD) craves for the love they never received as a child, this is the very thing that keeps them stuck as an emotional child. Often even the sickest sexually abused child will grow up as an adult mentally justifying their parents actions, condoning them and blaming themselves. There are plenty of case studies and certainly ones that cover narc parents. It discusses how genuine long lasting healing can occur and also discusses how short term patches can make matters worse. Highly recommend

[empath]

I've been painted black by my husband's parents, too; he is turning to them for support and advice about our marriage. He gets a lot of sympathy and concern from them when he complains to them about me. Poor guy just has a horrible wife (and he needs to make her submit).

So, he has a hard time accepting the whole picture of them and his relationship with them - they can't be both abusive and/or neglectful and deserving of love.

They haven't talked much to me in a very long time which is just fine by me; I'm not going to initiate conversations. Thankfully, they live a couple of days drive away from us.

Oh, and the flipping sides on whatever topic is pretty common in my husband, too; his views depend on whoever he is looking for acceptance from.

[CycleBreaker123]

[quote author=LightAfterTunnel link=topic=317227.msg12915779#msg12915779 date
This “about face” shocked me. I am used to seeing her extremes in painting me black but I don’t know if I’ve ever witnessed such dissociation (don’t know if this is the right word choice here) in idolization.

Has anyone else witnessed something like this? Is this common in a BPD child searching for validation from the “abuser”?
[/quote]

My BPD friend recently graduated from a university and moved out of state to live with her mother and stepfather until she found a job.   Two weeks later, things exploded at home and  her mother locked her out of the house.   I was instantly sucked in to this drama via endless texts, emails, calls etc --- I tried to be as non judgemental and validating as possible, worried about my friends physical and mental well being, while taking the horror stories about mom with a grain of salt

Then my friend went stone radio silent / it was quite upsetting given she claimed to be homeless, etc.    Two weeks later she finally replied to my series of inquiries - she had apparently painted me black for some vague thing I said in a text message, had patched things up with mom and everything was fine and dandy, in fact mom was coaching her through how to stop all communications with me.   It's like she triangulated both of us against one another / the whole thing occurs to me as kind of creepy actually - I have no idea if the things she tells me regarding feelings and events is real or fabricated.   It's almost as if the messsges from my friend are actually her mom talking - my friends  language and manner are different / even her voice has changed - it's become much higher in pitch, almost like that of a young girl.    It's all just weird and makes little sense to me

[LightAfterTunnel]

 It's almost as if the messsges from my friend are actually her mom talking - my friends  language and manner are different / even her voice has changed - it's become much higher in pitch, almost like that of a young girl.    It's all just weird and makes little sense to me

Hey CycleBreaker123,

I hear you on this. My wife won’t change voice but she really takes on her father’s speaking mannerisms. She’ll recycle his phrases verbatim. She usually will continue this for a while after having spent time with him. Then it fades.

Objectively speaking, In some regards I would guess this is standard human nature, right? We take and recycle things we can identify within ourselves, e.g. ideas, movements, words etc. BUT I think a healthy adult samples other people’s words etc when they adhere to their own ideas, i.e. ideas that they identify themselves with. However, in my BPDw’s case and your friend’s I don’t think the identifying idea exists and in some way they identify with the emotion in that moment to help them get through their stress yadayadayada... .

I am reading the book “Splitting” by Eddy and Kreger right now and they say something about how emotional distortion of facts has been shown to be quite normal in children. It makes me think that a similar effect may be in play in here as well.

LAT

[Notwendy]

Families tend to operate as a system- with each person taking their part in this system. I think in general all of us tend to revert back to our roles in our FOO - without even being aware of it- when we are with them. If a family is dysfunctional, these roles can be dysfunctional too.

We also tend to bring some of these patterns into our relationships and in ways, we "match" the partners we choose.

People who are not disordered can still have some dysfunctional behaviors as they had to learn them to survive in childhood. An example of this is adult children of alcoholics- they may not be alcoholics themselves but are working on the behavior patterns they grew up with.

Both H and I brought need for approval and validation into our marriage and some dysfunctional relationship patterns. A child forms his/her perspective of "normal" from what they grow up with. My FOO was not "normal"- mom has BPD but there were patterns I accepted as normal as I didn't know anything else.

Some patterns can prevail in families- one of them is no boundaries, ( enmeshment) strict family loyalty, don't have a different opinion, don't share feelings, family secrets.

I'm familiar with the "rewriting history" from BPD mom, but I think what happened in your description of your wife was enmeshment into her family system. With her own sense of poor boundaries, she doesn't have a separate opinion on gun control and maybe other things as well. She agrees with you when she is with you, but if her father's "rules" run the house, she agrees with him in his presence.

Looking at my mother's extended FOO- even though many are not disordered and are highly functional people, they seem enmeshed to me. One of the qualities I experience from them is that they are very invalidating and can be condescending. I feel sympathy for my mother as a child in this family. I don't think they caused her BPD but invalidation didn't help. She is still craving approval from them, concerned what they think about her and gets upset if I don't join her in trying to please them.

I have seen my H also work hard to get approval from his FOO as well as be very sensitive to any perceived insults to them ( even if not intended).

The real benefit of looking at extended FOO's is to look at our own issues. The idea that we choose partners with matching issues is intriguing. If you think your wife's FOO is dysfunctional and yours is not, you may want to take another look at yours- not to blame but to see if you have some learned behaviors that you think are "normal" but are not working well for you in your marriage.

I don't have BPD but I admit to idolizing my father and wanting his approval. Children tend to have black and white thinking, and so I grew up thinking my mother was the dysfunctional one and my father was not. I was emotionally abused but didn't recognize this as abuse because my parents would excuse my mother's behavior as normal and there wasn't physical proof of abuse or neglect. The way to get my father's approval was to behave and keep my mother happy ( an impossible task for anyone) , so as you can imagine this approval fluctuated according to her moods and so was inconsistent- and this also taught me what love must feel like and so this kind of push pull was what I accepted as normal in romantic relationships as well.

Maybe this will give you some insight into your wife's situation and even some sympathy for her as a child craving approval from this man.  This is how she experienced love in her FOO and she still craves that love. Growing up in her FOO-she may not know how to get this from her father in any other way.

What also happened after dinner was a possible triangle with your wife in the middle. What a choice- agree with her father ( who she probably had consequences with if she didn't agree as a child) or you. I'd be willing to bet, her bond with you feels more secure. She may have been terrified to disagree with him. In her FOO she may not have been allowed to or face punishment- like silent treatment from her parents. Or because of enmeshment, she was "him" in the moment.

Politics are pretty heated topics to discuss, even with non-disordered persons. Although you can certainly have your own opinion, I don't think there's much use in discussing a topic like this with a disordered person- not matter what side of the issue he is on. This might be a time to retreat to the kitchen to help with dishes, walk the dog, put the kids to bed, just something to stay out of the conversation or change the topic.

It's also OK for you and your wife to have different opinions. It's hard to know what she thinks. Without boundaries she may feel one way with you and one way with her father. Although she tends to have black and white thinking, politics are rarely black and white issues. One can have mixed feelings about them and that can be hard for someone with BPD to sort out when being with people with different opinions.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Notwendy,

Thank you so much for you very insightful comments!

The real benefit of looking at extended FOO's is to look at our own issues. The idea that we choose partners with matching issues is intriguing. If you think your wife's FOO is dysfunctional and yours is not, you may want to take another look at yours- not to blame but to see if you have some learned behaviors that you think are "normal" but are not working well for you in your marriage.

Quite true! If it wasn’t for my wife then I never would have (or at least at this point in my life) looked inward so much and realized my behaviors that have come from my family’s imprinting. I am one of four boys and interestingly 3 of us finished in marriages with very emotionally unstable women. One of my sister in laws demonstrates strong BPD traits as well. When I finally made that connection it made me reflect on our household and our upbringing, which was a huge growing point for working on myself.

Maybe this will give you some insight into your wife's situation and even some sympathy for her as a child craving approval from this man.  This is how she experienced love in her FOO and she still craves that love. Growing up in her FOO-she may not know how to get this from her father in any other way.

Actually, I could feel her need for his validation from early on in our relationship and you’re right that it made me quite empathetic to the situation and what she must be going through. Contrarily, with years of experience in seeing the same dynamic repeat itself with her dad’s presence, I have become much more angry at her father for this. In fact I really can’t be around my BPDw and FIL anymore because of the cyclical detrimental effect is has on her. Her father demonstrates strong signs of NPD and is even quite scary with his malignant apathy at times.

As a side note, her father has metastatic cancer and my guess is that he will not be around in one year’s time. I continue to ask myself how his death will affect my wife? Have you or anyone else observed how someone with BPD handles such a significant loss?

Politics are pretty heated topics to discuss, even with non-disordered persons. Although you can certainly have your own opinion, I don't think there's much use in discussing a topic like this with a disordered person- not matter what side of the issue he is on. This might be a time to retreat to the kitchen to help with dishes, walk the dog, put the kids to bed, just something to stay out of the conversation or change the topic.

Duly noted! In fact my impatience got the best of me on the matter since I had been keeping quiet for 3 weeks during their visit and I guess I just couldn’t handle it anymore. I like doing dishes anyway!

LAT

[Notwendy]

Although I feel irritated watching my H interact with his FOO ( because I can see the dysfunction in that family) his parents were generally good to him. We are both at the age where we can- and should- be helpful to our parents, so I don't mind when he helps them and I see this a a good quality in him.

I think it bothers him more to see me interact with my parents- as they didn't always treat me well and it's obvious. My relationship with my mother isn't typical mother-daughter. Yet, I also think it upset my H to see how much I loved my father and kept on trying to get his approval and love even if he did and said hurtful things at times and other times was an attentive and loving father. He also was an amazing grandpa to my kids.

My father was in a tough place. I was my mother's black child and refused to pretend that her behavior was OK. My mother sees people as either on her side or not her side and so my father was in the middle of that. I wonder if your wife felt that way at the dinner table with the two of you having conflicting opinions. She had to be either on your side or your father's side.

In this situation, I think the person (BPD or not- my father didn't have BPD but his feelings were aligned with my mother) will choose to behave better with the person they have the least secure attachment to. Young children will behave better with other people than they do with their own mother- and the reason for this is that they are most secure with their main caretaker ( a mother in most cases but not always). I had to grow up knowing how to take care of myself, and I think my father saw that my mother was more vulnerable and felt she needed him more. So he chose to align with her. I think he loved me but also he was so concerned about her that he didn't realize I was just a kid who craved his attention just like any other kid.

I don't know how someone with BPD deals with a father who is critically ill, but I can tell you how I did with mine. I started to grieve before he died, because I knew he was at the end of his life. It felt even more desperate to get his attention and approval. This time was also very stressful for him and my mother. Imagine if someone has abandonment fears- how would this affect them- and my mother's BPD behaviors escalated. I didn't understand BPD at the time or the Karpman triangle and this dynamic prevailed.

This incident caused me to look at my own people pleasing and approval seeking behavior which was dysfunctional. Ironically, I think this is a quality both pwBPD and nons have- which leads us to be enablers and pwBPD to be chameleons- take on the personalities, likes, dislikes of whoever they are with, just to feel like they belong or get some approval. I realized that I did both at times. It also inspired me to not pass these feelings on to my children. Both my H and I grew up in invalidating families and my mother did too. I needed to stop modeling this people pleasing for my children.

I know it bothers you to see your wife try to please her father. From what I experienced, I would say- let this go. I think it is important to feel that at least I tried. I would expect that your wife's BPD behavior would escalate- and it is likely that the drama in her FOO will too. Please keep in mind that whatever her behavior is- it is probably not about you. She may project on to you but it isn't about you.

[Red5]

... .my friends  language and manner are different / even her voice has changed - it's become much higher in pitch, almost like that of a young girl.    It's all just weird and makes little sense to me
[/quote]

@CycleBreaker123, my uBPD/wife does this as well, and now that I am aware of it (ten years), I even hear the same voice pitch from one of her other sisters now (FOO)... .my wife also displays all kinds of facial expressions, ie' eye blinking, eyebrow movements, head movements, (during extreme dysregulations, die on this hill point making) and as well several versions of voice pitch... .I used to think nothing of it, but now I watch and listen when I observe it... .and to be in the presence of all the sisters, and the [queen] mother, ie' the holidaze, .to be quite honest; is now kind of creepy to me, for lack of  better word... .when I hear that high pitch meek sounding voice; almost that of a younger teenager type, I know I can (better) stand the _ by !

When all of them are together, say at a family "get together", .I can vividly see the analogy of the waif, hermit, queen, witch coming out of all of them... .the established "hierarchy", by age, and sibling "dominance"; and that of the mother figure, among the several daughters present... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0

wow... .v/r Red5