Caught Her Red Handed

[MarkDavid]

Hi, I’m back after 2 Months or so away. Guess where I was? Yes, back with her.

My story is on a few posts earlier; I can cut it and paste it later today if need be.

Any way, the crisis is back. I caught her in a total, bold face, complete red handed lie on Sunday. She was lying to me, via text, in real time. So while we had made ELABORATE and More detailed plans than ever to be fully together at last (moving in together), she completely broke my trust on Sunday and I feel completely deflated. Of course she attempted to deny the lie on Sunday night, but I just ended it with you are not telling the truth and you are a liar. She hasn’t responded. There really is nothing for her to say; she was caught.

SO it’s no contact again (reminder: we work together). She won’t admit, and she ain’t apologizing. The same cycle, per usual.

[MarkDavid]

Hi, I’m back after 2 Months or so away. Guess where I was? Yes, back with her.

My story is on a few posts earlier; I can cut it and paste it later today if need be.

Any way, the crisis is back. I caught her in a total, bold face, complete red handed lie on Sunday. She was lying to me, via text, in real time. So while we had made ELABORATE and More detailed plans than ever to be fully together at last (moving in together), she completely broke my trust on Sunday and I feel completely deflated. Of course she attempted to deny the lie on Sunday night, but I just ended it with you are not telling the truth and you are a liar. She hasn’t responded. There really is nothing for her to say; she was caught.

SO it’s no contact again (reminder: we work together). She won’t admit, and she ain’t apologizing. The same cycle, per usual.

A little more background facts:


She is divorced, 1 23 year old, 1 15 year old.
I am divorced, 1 20 year old, 1 16 year old.

She made an enormous mega-deal 3 years ago after I first got divorced:  No joint birthday parties with the ex-spouses, demanded by my BPD girlfriend.  Fine.  I agreed.  Did just that, every time. My ex had asked me to do that for the first one 3 years ago, but I said no.  I have hosted my 6 birthday parties alone since the divorce.  The CLEAR DEAL was my BPD girlfriend was to do the same.  I caught her Sunday on her 15 year's old birthday in a monster lie about it.  She said she would be ALONE at a specific restaurant with the 15 year old, just the same as the sacrifices as I had made; she wasn't at that restaurant at all; I saw that she was not there; she even was lying saying the food she was eating, texting me right at the time - I saw right outside the restaurant she told me she was at that she was not there.  She only lied because she was with her ex husband.  I confronted, she lied, she won't confess, she certainly ain't apologizing.  We are back to no contact, though we work together in the same office.  I'm beyond irate.  And hurt.  Yeah, my gut feeling told me she was not at the place she claimed she was at, 5 minutes from where we both separately live; yeah, I checked up on her, I'm guilty as charged of that; she was texting me that she is at a place when she wasn't anywhere near that place.  On her daughter's birthday; it was ok for me to do separate birthday parties as to my kids that she demanded, but its ok for her to lie and do differently as to her child, huh?  Not in my mind. 

So is someone going to tell me I should forgive her?  Also, as mentioned above, she hasn't apologized or even admitted to being caught.

[AskingWhy]

MarkDavid, I am so sorry you are going through this.

You understand the push/pull dynamics and you are seeing this in your partner.  

You know the facts, but are you prepared to deal with the reality?  Please understand the actions of your partner are not about you, but her.  

Being betrayed is one of the worst feelings in a relationships.  Frequent infidelity can be seen as a form of abuse.  :)o not excuse this behavior.

You said your GF is BPD.  Is this a clinical diagnosis or something you suspect?

Blended families and social settings are the ideal settings for drama, especially when PDs are at work.  You can see the dysfunction across the generations.  

There is not  crystal ball as to why your GF was with her X but it may be to validate her desirability and need for male attention.

pwBPD and other PDs have two different sets of rules that suit their own needs.  

Again, this is not about you.

[MarkDavid]

MarkDavid, I am so sorry you are going through this.

You understand the push/pull dynamics and you are seeing this in your partner.  

You know the facts, but are you prepared to deal with the reality?  Please understand the actions of your partner are not about you, but her.  

Being betrayed is one of the worst feelings in a relationships.  Frequent infidelity can be seen as a form of abuse.  :)o not excuse this behavior.

You said your GF is BPD.  Is this a clinical diagnosis or something you suspect?

Blended families and social settings are the ideal settings for drama, especially when PDs are at work.  You can see the dysfunction across the generations.  

There is not  crystal ball as to why your GF was with her X but it may be to validate her desirability and need for male attention.

pwBPD and other PDs have two different sets of rules that suit their own needs.  

Again, this is not about you.

Thank you for your kind words.

Am I prepared to deal with the reality?  Probably not!  Then again, I think I need to know the truth!  It is a little difficult to stomach when she has been upping the ante POSITIVELY recently about our future together:  Thanksgiving menu planned and partial purchases made so far, talk about moving in with me though that is not a deal breaker, booking a Florida trip together for one of my kids and one of her kids to go on (as I type this, I hear her down the hallway, laughing with a work colleague, which just drives me insane (which she knows)).

It is not a clinical diagnosis.  However, there have been things that have happened with her and the quirky things she does and her track record and everything and over time and googling and internet searching and going through her behaviors, I just have very little doubt this is the case - that she is BPD.  Her behaviors just fit every category.  Heck we are both 49 years old; I don't think she is just playing around with me to play me like we are 22 year olds working the singles scene; there are kids involved and we both have talked at length about the importance of not exposing them to a bad situation.  Well I am available to her, honest, no lingering ex, no nothing that is any obstacle for us to finally be completely together, and that includes our workplace.  So we are supposedly closer than ever, yet she sneaks and does this in complete violation of what we very clearly agreed to.  And doesn't seem too damn bothered by it.  It makes me sick.  I am most times THE greatest thing since sliced bread, she would do nothing to ever hurt me (said again this past Saturday night after a nice long date together); and then the very next day she betrays me; she lies, denies, won't admit, won't apologize.

[MarkDavid]

Thank you for your kind words.

Am I prepared to deal with the reality?  Probably not!  Then again, I think I need to know the truth!  It is a little difficult to stomach when she has been upping the ante POSITIVELY recently about our future together:  Thanksgiving menu planned and partial purchases made so far, talk about moving in with me though that is not a deal breaker, booking a Florida trip together for one of my kids and one of her kids to go on (as I type this, I hear her down the hallway, laughing with a work colleague, which just drives me insane (which she knows)).

It is not a clinical diagnosis.  However, there have been things that have happened with her and the quirky things she does and her track record and everything and over time and googling and internet searching and going through her behaviors, I just have very little doubt this is the case - that she is BPD.  Her behaviors just fit every category.  Heck we are both 49 years old; I don't think she is just playing around with me to play me like we are 22 year olds working the singles scene; there are kids involved and we both have talked at length about the importance of not exposing them to a bad situation.  Well I am available to her, honest, no lingering ex, no nothing that is any obstacle for us to finally be completely together, and that includes our workplace.  So we are supposedly closer than ever, yet she sneaks and does this in complete violation of what we very clearly agreed to.  And doesn't seem too damn bothered by it.  It makes me sick.  I am most times THE greatest thing since sliced bread, she would do nothing to ever hurt me (said again this past Saturday night after a nice long date together); and then the very next day she betrays me; she lies, denies, won't admit, won't apologize.

So completely confusing too because she acted as THE most jealous woman I have ever been around; I mean, she would get jealous toward me over every woman conceivable who you could not even imagine:  my hair stylists, of course other woman in the office, women in restaurants, ex-s from 30 years ago; then, though, there are times like these when she just walks away like I'm nothing and didn't mean a damn thing to her.  Simply won't admit that she lied to me; that was something I noticed over time, how she RARELY would say she was sorry, over things that were pretty clearly mandating an apology of some sort - not deal breaker things, but hurtful things - she would make me pull teeth to get an apology out of her.  Any way, this time, her attitude over me catching is basically an arrogant "screw you" to me, you don't like it too bad, I'm not admitting to nothing, and I'm definitely not saying I'm sorry.  Wow.  I guess she MAY be afraid that if she confesses to one thing, her whole psychological house of cards will come crumbling down.  I don't know:  I just have never dealt with a woman like this, and it has eaten me up inside, not just over this latest situation, but the tons of earlier situations which have led to the constant recycling.

[formflier]

OK... .big picture stuff here.   Do you understand that "forgiveness" and "reconciliation" are different things?

With that in mind... .I'm going to say absolutely you should forgive her.

Why?  She is being who she is.  Please believe her when she does these things... please believe she is "showing you" her "true self".

Furthermore... please believe that she has shown you who she is and what she will do when "caught" in the future.

In a similar fashion that you shouldn't hold anger and resentment if one of your friends could no longer walk to see you (because they are in a wheelchair... .yet had promised to walk with you somewhere)... .please don't hold anger and resentment against your pwBPD because she had promised the alone birthday thing.

She doesn't keep promises.

Reconciliation is another matter.  Should you desire a partner that doesn't keep promises, then consider reconciling.

Should you desire a partner that keeps promises AND that when "forced" not to (sometime life does throw screwballs) demonstrates sorrow and contrition.    I'm afraid this person doesn't fit that bill.

Sometimes facing the facts in front of you sucks.  I'm sorry you have this set of facts to look at.

 

FF

[MarkDavid]

OK... .big picture stuff here.   :)o you understand that "forgiveness" and "reconciliation" are different things?

With that in mind... .I'm going to say absolutely you should forgive her.

Why?  She is being who she is.  Please believe her when she does these things... please believe she is "showing you" her "true self".

Furthermore... please believe that she has shown you who she is and what she will do when "caught" in the future.

In a similar fashion that you shouldn't hold anger and resentment if one of your friends could no longer walk to see you (because they are in a wheelchair... .yet had promised to walk with you somewhere)... .please don't hold anger and resentment against your pwBPD because she had promised the alone birthday thing.

She doesn't keep promises.

Reconciliation is another matter.  Should you desire a partner that doesn't keep promises, then consider reconciling.

Should you desire a partner that keeps promises AND that when "forced" not to (sometime life does throw screwballs) demonstrates sorrow and contrition.    I'm afraid this person doesn't fit that bill.

Sometimes facing the facts in front of you sucks.  I'm sorry you have this set of facts to look at.

 

FF

Thank you for your response.

It gives me a lot to think about.

That said, I do have questions:

1. You believe I should forgive someone who neither admits to or expresses sorrow?

2. It’s acceptable to be in a relationship with someone who repeatedly does not keep promises?

I’m sorry but some of these concepts are foreign to me.

[MarkDavid]

Thank you for your response.

It gives me a lot to think about.

That said, I do have questions:

1. You believe I should forgive someone who neither admits to or expresses sorrow?

2. It’s acceptable to be in a relationship with someone who repeatedly does not keep promises?

I’m sorry but some of these concepts are foreign to me.

And I am not here to argue, as I am here for support, so I just really am having a hard time with some of these BPD issues; I mean, I’m sorry, but it really seems to me to be a bit of a cop out for her to be able to “use” her undiagnosed BPD as an excuse for her bad behavior.  She demands that I play by and follow the relationship “rules”, and I do; it’s not a problem. I was married for 20 years and was able to abide by relationship rules (at least until the time I opted out for other reasons). Why can’t my now girlfriend follow the very same relationship rules that she was so insistent I follow? That hypocrisy has been a long standing problem between she and I; so I should just live a life of being run over because my  girlfriend has undiagnosed BPD and will NEVER get help? (Of note, about 6 months ago I suggested Relationship counseling for us, basically trying to show her that I would go through that for her even though we weren’t even married yet; she wanted NO part of that). I just don’t understand why she wanted me around in the first place if I supposedly just don’t measure up enough for her to give me true love in return.

[MarkDavid]

Thank you for your response.

It gives me a lot to think about.

That said, I do have questions:

1. You believe I should forgive someone who neither admits to or expresses sorrow?

2. It’s acceptable to be in a relationship with someone who repeatedly does not keep promises?

I’m sorry but some of these concepts are foreign to me.

And I am not here to argue, as I am here for support, so I just really am having a hard time with some of these BPD issues; I mean, I’m sorry, but it really seems to me to be a bit of a cop out for her to be able to “use” her undiagnosed BPD as an excuse for her bad behavior.  She demands that I play by and follow the relationship “rules”, and I do; it’s not a problem. I was married for 20 years and was able to abide by relationship rules (at least until the time I opted out for other reasons). Why can’t my now girlfriend follow the very same relationship rules that she was so insistent I follow? That hypocrisy has been a long standing problem between she and I; so I should just live a life of being run over because my  girlfriend has undiagnosed BPD and will NEVER get help? (Of note, about 6 months ago I suggested Relationship counseling for us, basically trying to show her that I would go through that for her even though we weren’t even married yet; she wanted NO part of that). I just don’t understand why she wanted me around in the first place if I supposedly just don’t measure up enough for her to give me true love in return.

[formflier]

1. You believe I should forgive someone who neither admits to or expresses sorrow?

2. It’s acceptable to be in a relationship with someone who repeatedly does not keep promises?

I’m sorry but some of these concepts are foreign to me.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

1.  Yes... forgiveness is critical... for YOU  Full disclosure.  I'm a conservative Christian guy (Baptist variety).  That being said, I think most psychologists (secular thinking) would agree that forgiveness is about the person doing the forgiving... .NOT the one being forgiven.

It has to do with "letting go of the conflict"... ."forgiving the debt".

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/forgiveness

2.  I'm going to stay a bit vague in responding to question two from you.  The guidelines on these boards (bpdfamily) generally say we are not supposed to give "run messages" or really... .to "tell" people what to do about their relationship (as far as stay or go).

Essentially I have advised you to "forgive"... .it's up to you to attempt to "reconcile" or not.  Again... to some "reconcile" can be a religious term, but essentially it means (to me) will I attempt to "heal" the rift in the relationship. 

Said another way.  I'm not aware of anyway to "reconcile" without "forgiveness" but I am aware (and believe) it is possible to "forgive" and also say that you have no interest in "reconciling".

What I DO want to stress again to you... .is that you have been given a "gift" before marriage.  You have been shown behavior that very likely represents this persons "true character".  Please believe this is who they are.  Us this information to make decisions about YOUR future participation in this relationship.

Can people change... .?  Yes they can  Most stories of change involve dedication to long term therapy and accountability.  

I hope this helps clarify my advice.  You have a lot of information (much of it unpleasant) to reflect on.

   

FF

[formflier]

  I just don’t understand why she wanted me around in the first place if I supposedly just don’t measure up enough for her to give me true love in return.

Because at the moment she "wanted" that... .it was likely a "true" and "valid" reflection of her feelings.  The "battleground" for pwBPD is their feelings... .NOT the rules or their compliance with "rules".

That's a very "non" way of looking at things.

Trust me... .pwBPD don't consider the rules first.  Especially when emotions are hijacked.

Think of it as you just realized you are in a relationship with someone that you "believed" spoke your same language and had same cultural norms and values.  Turns out they don't.

So... YOU need to learn the "rules" in her world.  Then decide if that is something you "want".

Or... it is an acceptable decision to decide that you don't want anything to do with that... and move along.

I think the worse decision of all is to keep trying to "have" a relationship based on "your" rules and "your" culture.  Lots of frustration, disappointment and heartache down that path.  I promise you...

FF

[MarkDavid]

Because at the moment she "wanted" that... .it was likely a "true" and "valid" reflection of her feelings.  The "battleground" for pwBPD is their feelings... .NOT the rules or their compliance with "rules".

That's a very "non" way of looking at things.

Trust me... .pwBPD don't consider the rules first.  Especially when emotions are hijacked.

Think of it as you just realized you are in a relationship with someone that you "believed" spoke your same language and had same cultural norms and values.  Turns out they don't.

So... YOU need to learn the "rules" in her world.  Then decide if that is something you "want".

Or... it is an acceptable decision to decide that you don't want anything to do with that... and move along.

I think the worse decision of all is to keep trying to "have" a relationship based on "your" rules and "your" culture.  Lots of frustration, disappointment and heartache down that path.  I promise you...

FF

Thank you for your explanation.

I further listened to some information as to whether or not she has BPD in the first place; while she exhibits symptom after symptom of the disorder, which is what led me here to this board in the first place, maybe she doesn't even have such a disorder in the first place; as an example, she really does not strike me as suicidal.  Maybe she is just a selfish person who at age 49 just says things to get her way at that moment, and then just didn't pick me in the end and did things to be able to easily walk away and undoubtedly be with someone else, quickly.  It is very painful to experience such a shock to the system (mine) (though I saw things obviously over time that were red flags), particularly from someone who completely threw herself at me in the first place, incredibly incredibly hard; certainly enough so that I definitely believed her and fell for her.  Wow.  She won't be cooking for our First Thanksgiving together I am hosting; it will be a catered affair, without her, contrary to the very recent plans of just five (5) days ago.  This definitely hurts.

[formflier]

I would encourage you to not spend time and energy wondering "does she really have BPD".  I used to do that a lot too.

It's a spectrum disorder.  What you "know" is that she displays "BPDish traits", because you can observe those.  Our "recommendations" on BPD family are to "deal with" the traits... .(what you actually see).  Let the diagnosing and labels be left to the professionals.


   

Please be kind to yourself... .if that is your normal habit... .be specifically "extra kind" for the next few days.  You are worth it!

FF

[MarkDavid]

I would encourage you to not spend time and energy wondering "does she really have BPD".  I used to do that a lot too.

It's a spectrum disorder.  What you "know" is that she displays "BPDish traits", because you can observe those.  Our "recommendations" on BPD family are to "deal with" the traits... .(what you actually see).  Let the diagnosing and labels be left to the professionals.


   

Please be kind to yourself... .if that is your normal habit... .be specifically "extra kind" for the next few days.  You are worth it!



FF

Thank you for that advice, too.  Yes indeed I am not a professional. I feel like I should be after what I have gone through. I definitely got more than I ever imagined when I became involved with this woman.

So many of her “quirky “ things she did and said are running through my mind; things that make a lot of people think she is just being her unique quirky self; the reality is that a lot of those quirks are very real.

[MarkDavid]

Thank you for that advice, too.  Yes indeed I am not a professional. I feel like I should be after what I have gone through. I definitely got more than I ever imagined when I became involved with this woman.

So many of her “quirky “ things she did and said are running through my mind; things that make a lot of people think she is just being her unique quirky self; the reality is that a lot of those quirks are very real.

And I just don’t appear to be properly “equipped “ to deal with her. I feel that if I chose to remain with her, all I would be conceding to is a life of being bulldozed over and abused further. That strikes me as a life of misery; I have to believe that some woman out there can be on the same page as me

[formflier]

Yep... .there is so much nuance in how "BPDish stuff" shows up.  Consider the list of factors (from memory 9 or 10), then consider they may show up in different combinations or with some factors emphasized and some not even present (luckily suicide is not on my wife's list either).

You could have a lot of diagnosed BPD people that "present" in completely different ways.

My wife is honestly more PPD than BPD, since paranoia is her "central" or "core" thing.  Some of the things I do in my r/s are focused on that knowledge.  Very separate from actually making a diagnosis.  

For instance, anytime something comes up that could be twisted to mean my wife is "wrong", I need to be careful with, because it can easily morph into "you" tricked me into being wrong or "they" tricked me.  Proper application of tools, avoiding invalidation and specifically avoiding paranoid triggers... .keeps things manageable.  

It sucks... .but is better than the alternative.  

Be glad you have this information now, when you have many more options.

FF

[formflier]

  I have to believe that some woman out there can be on the same page as me

A very wise belief... .   

FF

[MarkDavid]

A very wise belief... .   

FF

It's a tough situation; though self-created on my part, having ever getting involved with her in the first place.  As mentioned, we work in the same office; so literally we just walked by each other moments ago for the first time since Sunday; jointly snubbed each other/cold shoulder/no eye contact:  as we have done 1,000s of times in the past during "the bad times".  Any way, this is the longest for no contact for us (assuming that actually counts for us, as we work in the same office); I'm not caving that is for sure, which she knows.  So we will see if she reaches out in light of actually seeing me; or if she is just leaving well enough alone since I "busted her" on something that obviously was a complete "no-no" in the relationship and she just accepts that my trust of her is finally COMPLETELY broken.

[formflier]

It's a tough situation; though self-created on my part, having ever getting involved with her in the first place.  

I'm going to push back. 

Be kind to yourself.  You didn't know what you didn't know.  Now you do.

Remember my comments about her providing you information about her character?  Did you know that before hand?

OK... .so... .when people show you who they are... please believe them.

And... .most importantly don't insist that you should have been wiser.  You weren't then... .cut yourself some slack.  Now you are wiser... .reflect... .think... .make judgments for your life.  Keep your newfound wisdom close at hand.  You had to pay a lot to "earn" that wisdom.  Don't waste it.

FF

[MarkDavid]

I'm going to push back. 

Be kind to yourself.  You didn't know what you didn't know.  Now you do.

Remember my comments about her providing you information about her character?  Did you know that before hand?

OK... .so... .when people show you who they are... please believe them.

And... .most importantly don't insist that you should have been wiser.  You weren't then... .cut yourself some slack.  Now you are wiser... .reflect... .think... .make judgments for your life.  Keep your newfound wisdom close at hand.  You had to pay a lot to "earn" that wisdom.  Don't waste it.

FF

Please feel free to push back; I'm not sure if I need a crack across the head, a pitcher of water thrown in my face, or a hug.  But I will take them all.

All I know is that I have had other relationships in my life and I have NEVER had someone come on to me as hard as she did. I mean, this was not a short-term thing; for a long, long, long, time she acted as if she adored me; I definitely soaked in the adoration, and my ego was stroked, 24/7 for YEARS (other than the "bad times"; it was ALWAYS extremes; either incredibly good, or horribly bad like it is now).  I feel that she suckered me and I'm just a fool for falling for this; though nobody really knows just how hard she came at me and gave herself to me.  Heck, this past Saturday night, after I merely asked a question about her ex, she turned on the tears of sadness on my couch saying she felt SAD that I even ASKED something about him after all this time, as she thought we were FINALLY past all of those concerns, and she felt SO bad for me that I was still having those feelings of concern (rightfully so, obviously, as it turns out) ; so I backed off and said it is fine I accept your answer and explanation over THAT situation; my point is complete adoration and as I said above - I was the most handsome, smartest, sweetest, loving, EVERYTHING etc... .EVER for an extended period of time:  SUPPOSEDLY.  All too good to be true, and that's why I am upset at myself, among other things.

[MarkDavid]

Please feel free to push back; I'm not sure if I need a crack across the head, a pitcher of water thrown in my face, or a hug.  But I will take them all.

All I know is that I have had other relationships in my life and I have NEVER had someone come on to me as hard as she did. I mean, this was not a short-term thing; for a long, long, long, time she acted as if she adored me; I definitely soaked in the adoration, and my ego was stroked, 24/7 for YEARS (other than the "bad times"; it was ALWAYS extremes; either incredibly good, or horribly bad like it is now).  I feel that she suckered me and I'm just a fool for falling for this; though nobody really knows just how hard she came at me and gave herself to me.  Heck, this past Saturday night, after I merely asked a question about her ex, she turned on the tears of sadness on my couch saying she felt SAD that I even ASKED something about him after all this time, as she thought we were FINALLY past all of those concerns, and she felt SO bad for me that I was still having those feelings of concern (rightfully so, obviously, as it turns out) ; so I backed off and said it is fine I accept your answer and explanation over THAT situation; my point is complete adoration and as I said above - I was the most handsome, smartest, sweetest, loving, EVERYTHING etc... .EVER for an extended period of time:  SUPPOSEDLY.  All too good to be true, and that's why I am upset at myself, among other things.

And now, right about on schedule, I get the complicated what I saw wasn’t what I think it was explanation from her; a bull___ elaborate explanation of what supposedly was going on. With the added bonus that I am supposedly lying about exactly what I saw.

[formflier]

 
Classic emotional abuse tactics/examples

If you've never looked them up... .you are experiencing it.

FF

[MarkDavid]

Classic emotional abuse tactics/examples

If you've never looked them up... .you are experiencing it.

FF

I have been out of the office today at a conference, but after not reaching out to her this morning via text she forwarded to me 24 loving texts I sent her that she saved, saying how she wanted me to read them before she deleted them and moved on with her life. I simply responded that she should go whine and complain to her lingering ex husband, not me. She responded how she doesn’t whine and complain; she conveniently omitted any reference to her ex husband in her reply. I have not responded.

[Notwendy]

This text she sent you is what I call "drama bait", and you bit the hook. ( not a criticism but something I have done and work on not doing)

Really- think about it- this was not an apology, this was a dramatic- send the loving texts before I delete them- what was the intent of this? To stir you up emotionally. It was not taking ownership of her actions.

Your response- fueled the fire. I have another term for statements that are critical " go whine"  and these are like p*ssing into the wind. What you say comes flying back at you, and it did.

IMHO, she is taking victim mode, not being accountable but projecting bad feelings on to you and trying to make you feel bad. The projection is what makes whatever unpleasant retort you say come right back at you. It may make you feel good in the moment to say something like that but it isn't effective.

I don't have experience with such a thing in a romantic relationship but my BPD mother will lie without conscience and then deny what she said - even if I have it recorded on my phone.

I can relate to your shock. Because my mother, probably much like your exGF, is not a bad person. She is also at times a wonderful person and she raised me with good moral rules, don't lie , don't steal- and she basically follows them with the exception of being a liar. It is shocking because it feels as if we are on the same page with our values, but with this, we are not. Assuming we have shared values is what leads to such a surprise.

I can not explain her reasoning or what is going on with her. I will repeat what another poster said- whatever this is, it is not about you. It is natural to make this about you. I recall being very hurt- how could my own mother lie to me like that? But it wasn't me. It's her. I can not control what she says. I can only control my decision about it.

The choice is yours- continue a relationship with her knowing she potentially lies to you. Or decide that you want to be in a relationship with someone who shares your moral values and not be in a relationship with her. As Maya Angelou says- when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

I doubt this is the last you hear from her. When/if you do, consider the drama triangle and try not to react to an emotional post.

"I am going to delete these messages from you"

You can choose not to respond, or to respond and say "it's OK, we are not dating anymore. I wish you well" or if you are not ready to say this, something like "I got this message thank you" so she knows you received it and are not playing games with her- but you don't feed the drama. Even if she sends 10 messages back, a constant " I got this message thank you" over and over will not get into drama with her. IMHO, don't say something critical as it fuels the triangle.

Meanwhile, take some time to think about what you really want and what you want to do with this relationship.

[MarkDavid]

I have been out of the office today at a conference, but after not reaching out to her this morning via text she forwarded to me 24 loving texts I sent her that she saved, saying how she wanted me to read them before she deleted them and moved on with her life. I simply responded that she should go whine and complain to her lingering ex husband, not me. She responded how she doesn’t whine and complain; she conveniently omitted any reference to her ex husband in her reply. I have not responded.

Well I am going to be honest; I read your post after what down this afternoon.  Basically it was a text tirade back and forth, primarily with her saying how she doesn't want me, how things were my fault, how she doesn't want her ex, and that now she will find the love that she is meant to find in someone else.

I don't really have a point in what I am saying here; I just felt the responsibility to give an update.

It is what it is.

[Notwendy]

The Drama Triangle is a good model for this kind of thing. Taking Victim perspective for her has a payoff- victims are not accountable for their situation. But these relationship issues are rarely with a true victim- someone who truly has been the victim of something like a crime. Still- her perception of being a victim and the way she speaks to you- takes away her accountability for her.

When you engage in these texts or discussions, you play into this. You are understandably hurt by her actions but then, you are also a victim and two victims on this triangle will go round and round between Persecutor, Victim, and Rescuer ( one can rescue themselves - and take all 3 roles).

I think many of us have been in these triangles- I know that I have. The good thing about recognizing it is that we can change our part in it- just not participate. One can do this in or out of a relationship.

You are hurt and would like reconciliation, but you can also step back and take an objective look at this. There's been some discussions on this board about the difference between recycle and reconciliation. There may be an attempt at recycling in the future. To do this, I think one has to agree that all is well and that this didn't happen or wasn't a big deal to you and forget about it. However if more honesty in relationships matters to you, then this might not be what you want to do.

[Cat Familiar]

All I know is that I have had other relationships in my life and I have NEVER had someone come on to me as hard as she did. I mean, this was not a short-term thing; for a long, long, long, time she acted as if she adored me; I definitely soaked in the adoration, and my ego was stroked, 24/7 for YEARS (other than the "bad times"; it was ALWAYS extremes; either incredibly good, or horribly bad like it is now).  I feel that she suckered me and I'm just a fool for falling for this; though nobody really knows just how hard she came at me and gave herself to me.  

Yes, I know the feeling. I thought I had, at last, found my soulmate. Because I had made a bad mistake in marrying my first husband (also BPD), I waited for a couple of years after he proposed before I agreed to marry him. During that time, he was the perfect fiance, but in retrospect, I see hints of BPD behaviors even then.

We got married and did a huge addition onto my little house, so I chalked up all sorts of "off" behaviors to stress: he divorced a few years before, he moved to a new area to be with me, he got a new job that paid considerably less than he was used to, and we were in the midst of this giant building project which had all sorts of complications.

It wasn't until years later that the full-blown BPD behavior showed itself, and that was during a time of relative calm. We'd finished the house project, were married and living together, he had inherited a vast sum of money after his nasty narcissistic father died. All should have been good, but then it all started to come apart at the seams.

Formflier had a similar experience with his wife. Her personality disorder didn't bloom until many years (and children) later, when a natural disaster struck their area.

Like others have said, consider yourself lucky to have foreknowledge before you've signed any official documents linking your lives together.

I, too, felt duped. But now I understand more about BPD, I believe my husband was mirroring me in the beginning and trying his best to only show his "good side"--but that's something we all do in the beginning of relationships--try to bring our best. After a while we're ok showing our partners some of the other, less desirable parts of our selves, as we lounge around the house in sweatpants, our hair uncombed.

With nons, the discrepancy between the initial "presenting persona" and the more "relaxed persona" isn't quite so great as it is with pwBPD, who desperately want to hide the shame and self-loathing they feel.

[MarkDavid]

Yes, I know the feeling. I thought I had, at last, found my soulmate. Because I had made a bad mistake in marrying my first husband (also BPD), I waited for a couple of years after he proposed before I agreed to marry him. During that time, he was the perfect fiance, but in retrospect, I see hints of BPD behaviors even then.

We got married and did a huge addition onto my little house, so I chalked up all sorts of "off" behaviors to stress: he divorced a few years before, he moved to a new area to be with me, he got a new job that paid considerably less than he was used to, and we were in the midst of this giant building project which had all sorts of complications.

It wasn't until years later that the full-blown BPD behavior showed itself, and that was during a time of relative calm. We'd finished the house project, were married and living together, he had inherited a vast sum of money after his nasty narcissistic father died. All should have been good, but then it all started to come apart at the seams.

Formflier had a similar experience with his wife. Her personality disorder didn't bloom until many years (and children) later, when a natural disaster struck their area.

Like others have said, consider yourself lucky to have foreknowledge before you've signed any official documents linking your lives together.

I, too, felt duped. But now I understand more about BPD, I believe my husband was mirroring me in the beginning and trying his best to only show his "good side"--but that's something we all do in the beginning of relationships--try to bring our best. After a while we're ok showing our partners some of the other, less desirable parts of our selves, as we lounge around the house in sweatpants, our hair uncombed.

With nons, the discrepancy between the initial "presenting persona" and the more "relaxed persona" isn't quite so great as it is with pwBPD, who desperately want to hide the shame and self-loathing they feel.

Well all I can say is that really awful words were exchanged yesterday which concluded with her saying she does not want me, that she wants to be with someone else, and that she wants me to be happy with someone else. So the silence has now begun after all of that was said.

[Notwendy]

I think you may have been in this place before, and then, after some silence she comes back. Then, all is well for a while ( deciding that the incident with the ex husband and the lie never happened ) and then some other issue comes up and another blow up.

Every couple has disagreements, people make mistakes. A difference is that some couples are able to discuss and resolve them and some are not.

What just happened is how she does this, and the two of you end up with angry words and silence.

If she comes back after a cooling off period- you have two choices- this is what it is- this is your relationship- the good parts and this part. Or you decide you don't want a recycle.

You may not know what you want to do now, but IMHO, this is a pattern that seems to repeat itself in these relationships. You may be painted black now, but might also be painted white again.

[MarkDavid]

I think you may have been in this place before, and then, after some silence she comes back. Then, all is well for a while ( deciding that the incident with the ex husband and the lie never happened ) and then some other issue comes up and another blow up.

Every couple has disagreements, people make mistakes. A difference is that some couples are able to discuss and resolve them and some are not.

What just happened is how she does this, and the two of you end up with angry words and silence.

If she comes back after a cooling off period- you have two choices- this is what it is- this is your relationship- the good parts and this part. Or you decide you don't want a recycle.

You may not know what you want to do now, but IMHO, this is a pattern that seems to repeat itself in these relationships. You may be painted black now, but might also be painted white again.

I agree basically with every word you said; yes, this is definitely the pattern. The thing that always puzzles me about this woman is how she REPEATEDLY during the bad times threatens me with her being with other men. And she does it in a way of always implying and threatening me like it would be like now or today, like this shortly after a blow up at this level (we were totally together as a couple just 7 days ago). I never go to that card as to me supposedly being with someone new, but she goes to that card darn near every time. Thoughts and opinions?