Good and bad triangulation: Ending the drama

[heartandwhole]

Mini-series: Understanding and Ending Drama

Are you experiencing a lot of conflict in your relationship with very little resolution? This article has helped many to get on a pathway to systematically reducing drama in their life.

We can get caught up in a conflict and lock ourselves into rigid and self-satisfying/self-punishing roles that limit our abilities to live our lives in a healthy, happy, and relaxed way. Drama is a team effort and you can change and reduce drama in your life. This mini-series is about understand what drama is, what fuels it, and how you can change your role in this toxic chemical reaction.

Good Triangulation and Bad Triangulation While triangulation is an important stabilizing factor, at times triangulation can be a seriously destabilizing factor.  "Bad triangulation" (i.e., pathological triangulation) can cause more turmoil in a relationship, polarizing communications and causing conflict to escalate. According to Bowen, triangles have at least four possible outcomes, two of which are good and two of which are bad:         a stable pair can become destabilized by a third person; a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation); an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child); and an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides). Recognizing the difference between good triangulation and bad triangulation is critical to avoid repeatedly entering into destabilizing conditions in our relationships."   In the past there was quite a bit of conflict/discomfort between my brother and me, and so instead of communicating directly with me about how I was doing or what was happening in my life, he started finding out everything from my mother (he knows we communicate a lot). I thought it was bad triangulation, because I wished he would just speak to me directly. But I can see how it was easier and more comfortable for him, because of our history of conflict. My mother would tell me what he asked about—she wanted me to know that he cared. If she had inflamed the drama between us, that would have been bad triangulation. If she had got us talking, that would have been good triangulation. What happened is that she just kept talking to both of us (hoping we'd get over ourselves and speak again). While communication still isn't great between my brother and me, things have improved, and we are talking more than before. What example of good vs. bad triangulation can you share? Let's work through it! More information: Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle (full article) 1) Triangulation: Our Relationships Affect Our Wellbeing 2) Good Triangulation and Bad Triangulation 3) Drama Triangles - Pathological Conflict 4) How Drama Triangles Form 5) How Drama Triangles Escalate Drama 6) Escaping Drama Triangles 7) Avoiding a Life of Drama Triangles 8) Start Using the Caring Triangle / Winning Triangle

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

i have an experience i think turned out to be an example of good triangulation.

my dad has some BPDish traits. him and my mom had had a tiff cause he lost his phone, she wouldnt let him borrow hers, and he was being kind of insufferable about it. while he was out, her and i were talking about it. i approached it as i would here, listening and offering strategies. he came through the room, being snide and starting stuff, and my mom leaped into JADEing. but then she tried to get me to vouch for something she had or hadnt said/done (he was out of the room at this point but was within earshot). i shot her a look and muttered something evasive and not really hearable.

i very quickly changed the subject to break things up and get my dads mind on other stuff. he left again shortly after. my mom was kind of hurt that i didnt vouch for her/defend her. i explained why (yes i referenced the karpman drama triangle). if i had gotten in the middle in that way (which fifteen years ago i totally would have), he would very much have perceived a 2 vs 1 battle, and escalated, and she would have borne the brunt of it. i also told her that when he came back he would be cooled off and all apologies. she understood.

and that was exactly what happened.

[Harley Quinn]

In my case, it was my newborn son who brought balance to my dysfunctional relationship. 

With my son's father and I, prior to him being born I was deeply entrenched in the victim role and he in the persecutor role.  We had been this way a long time and the pregnancy was unexpected.  Things continued to be difficult throughout the pregnancy and I was bordering on asking him to stay out of our lives and I'd do it alone. 

The birth was a complicated one (pre eclampsia and oxygen starvation) and both my son and I could have lost our lives.  That shift and the arrival of my son into the world altered the dynamic altogether.  I had to remain in hospital for 2 weeks under constant observation and our son spent three days in ICU.  From being a taker, his father became more balanced, responsible, caring and took charge (which was usually my job when it came to anything grown up) of our care.  He ensured our needs were met.  This was a new experience for me, and I allowed myself to feel more balanced and less resentful towards him - instead I showed him I appreciated the alteration to his behaviour.  We both left our respective corners and met in the middle for the first time in years.  Our son and the life threatening situation brought us together.  We became a team with a common goal.  I actually fell back in love with him and he I as we saw each other for who we were instead of playing the roles we'd assigned ourselves for so long.

Love and light x

[Meili]

The obvious example of bad triangulation in the r/s that brought me here was my emotional affair with the OW during my r/s with my x. The OW destabilized the r/s long before I started to lean on her for intimate conversations that I felt that I could no longer have with my x.

It all started with the innocent act of my rescuing her dog and the OW steadily and methodically inserted herself more and more into my life despite the protests of my x.

The reason that I would classify this as triangulation rather than just a love triangle is because the two woman actually had contact and interactions.

One of the women would do something (persecutor), the other (victim) would complain to me, and I would try to resolve the problem (rescuer). Or, my x would dysregulate (persecutor), I would end up attacked (victim) and I'd turn to the OW (rescuer). The latter was the more frequent occurrence.

I suppose that one could argue that when I removed the OW from my world, it helped to re-stabilize my r/s with my x. That could be a lose interpretation of good triangulation. Removing the third party broke the triangle.

[pearlsw]

Hi all,  

Interesting discussion here. I can never tell if I don't get this concept very well or am in a bit of denial about my role in how these situations work! Perhaps both? Well, let me dive in.

My h's kids and ex are a big factor our relationship, naturally. (It would not surprise me at all to hear she is also an upwBPD traits or... .other serious issues, but I don't know.) Anyway, my h's ex currently has access to him on a daily basis via What'sApp and can really set him off. In the past I just stayed out of this entirely. I figured he's an adult, they have kids together, it's all up to them of course how much and how they contact each other - without question. Sometimes his ex gets upset and blocks him and he did that at one point too, but they opened things back up over an issue they are fighting over in court these days. Eight years after they first split and still in court. Sigh.  

But at some point in the last few months I suggested that perhaps it would be better to block her again and just contact her via email again. I said it his choice, not mine, but if it helps him feel less stress and it gives us more peace it is worth considering. Communicating via email slows them down and cuts down on their fights and games, etc. (They typically can't talk on the phone or it would be screaming and yelling.) They have a lot of patterns with manipulating each other and keeping information from each other and a very special way of insulting each other.

Where do I come in? Well, when he's been fighting with her and he's stressed and moods are off... .well,    for me! He's more irritable or tired, out of it, down etc. I want them to communicate as best they possibly can for everyone's sake. I have tried at times to help him think carefully and slow down his reactions with her - not say or do rash things or make threats. They are both masters of threats with each other.

This is the first time I was in a relationship with any one with an ex who was a factor in our lives or with kids. It's no easy feat to live with this extra dynamic, this extra character in our lives. So, is it possible she plays some kind of "persecutor" role, my husband the "victim" and I the "rescuer" from time to time?

I honestly don't always like to take sides though he tends to expect unwavering loyalty. I can give a lot loyalty and support, but I will not bend my principles or hold my tongue if I don't agree with something. It's hard because he does need someone on his side. He gets left out of a lot as a dad parenting from another country and with a mom who has trained the kids to lie and keep secrets for her side - from what I've heard/seen.

There are more details to hash over, the dynamic with the kids, but I'll put this out for now and see what others think. Help!

[heartandwhole]

Hi pearlsw,

Thanks for joining in! I think your situation is very relatable and the susceptibility to creating a drama triangle can be high in such dynamics. I
think you are handling the situation well. You appear to be offering support and solutions, but without over-the-top effort or enabling. For many of us, that is not easy.

But at some point in the last few months I suggested that perhaps it would be better to block her again and just contact her via email again. I said it his choice, not mine, but if it helps him feel less stress and it gives us more peace it is worth considering. Communicating via email slows them down and cuts down on their fights and games, etc. (They typically can't talk on the phone or it would be screaming and yelling.) They have a lot of patterns with manipulating each other and keeping information from each other and a very special way of insulting each other.

I think making a suggestion as a peer and then leaving the subject alone is a wise choice. Ultimately, I think we strive to let our partners work it out and only offer support when asked. That is not always practical, in my view, as we are in intimate relationships here, which affect our wellbeing as much as our partners'

Where do I come in? Well, when he's been fighting with her and he's stressed and moods are off... .well,    for me! He's more irritable or tired, out of it, down etc. I want them to communicate as best they possibly can for everyone's sake.

I totally get this. You have an investment in this, as it affects you as well. Instead of trying to stop his irritability through solving his communication problem with his wife, what options do you have to respond directly to him when he is behaving in ways that are augmenting your stress levels?

This is the first time I was in a relationship with any one with an ex who was a factor in our lives or with kids. It's no easy feat to live with this extra dynamic, this extra character in our lives. So, is it possible she plays some kind of "persecutor" role, my husband the "victim" and I the "rescuer" from time to time?

It isn't easy! I've been there, too.    I'm sure from time to time, the three of you could slip into these roles—it's human, and not necessarily bad. My take is that you are staying more toward the center than many would. In my view, you are working more toward the Caring point in the Winning Triangle (more on this in later installments of this series!). In that dynamic, instead of rescuing, we become listeners. We then offer solution-oriented support and assistance without enabling or taking on the responsibility.

Has your partner asked for support and/or advice regarding his communications with his wife? Does he expect you to solve the problem for him?

heartandwhole 

[pearlsw]

Hi heartandwhole,

Thanks for your insights and thoughts on this! It's nice to hear things that I am hitting the mark with along with mistakes I'm making!

Um, he's pretty good actually. He doesn't expect me to solve things. I just pay a little of the price if they have a problem and he ends up in a bad mood, distant, distracted, stressed. Stress adds up. I have a lot of ways with helping him reduce stress and he is very appreciative of all of them.

Interesting question about my stress levels! I almost forget at times that I have something to say about me and my stuff. He can't handle strong emotions from me. I am typically pretty balanced, but I can certainly get stressed from time to time. I've always been one to work out my own stuff. I have never been good at getting others to recognize my needs. People see me as someone who has it together and they don't have to worry about me.

It'd be nice if he recognized a bit more how to comfort me. I don't like it to be honest, but if he is not providing support or concern I am willing at times to support him in supporting me, but at times it is exhausting - feels like I could just have the relationship with myself without a middleman in the way if I am doing so much of the work of it. At other times I am more willing to be patient and help him be a better partner. I know he wants to be a good one and to bring me happiness, he just doesn't know how, but I am lucky in that he is also willing to learn and improve.

Thanks for asking!

[heartandwhole]

He can't handle strong emotions from me. I am typically pretty balanced, but I can certainly get stressed from time to time. I've always been one to work out my own stuff. I have never been good at getting others to recognize my needs. People see me as someone who has it together and they don't have to worry about me.

I can totally relate to this, pearlsw! I've been working on letting people know how they can support me; it hasn't been easy, but it's something I want to change about my relationships.

It'd be nice if he recognized a bit more how to comfort me. I don't like it to be honest, but if he is not providing support or concern I am willing at times to support him in supporting me, but at times it is exhausting - feels like I could just have the relationship with myself without a middleman in the way if I am doing so much of the work of it.

This is such a good point. And I think it helps keep us in the drama triangle, even when we want to move toward the center. It feels easier sometimes to maintain the "roles" that we've adopted—easier for us, and easier for the other people in the triangle as well. What we probably often don't realize is that maybe it's not easier. We've just been reluctant to upset the apple cart temporarily for longer-term gain.

Can anyone else relate?

heartandwhole

[Meili]

I would have to say yes, it is easier. More importantly though, it's what we know and therefore are comfortable with even if we don't like it. At the moment that it is happening, it's more comfortable than the fear of the unknown that comes with the new dynamic.

I have found it to be true that change only occurs when the pain of where we are at becomes greater than the fear of the unknown. So, as long as we allow ourselves to be comfortable in the discomfort of our roles, we will not effectuate change.

When we truly believe that something better lies on the other side, the fear of change subsides and the pain of the current situation becomes the greater of the two.

[once removed]

i agree with this:

I have found it to be true that change only occurs when the pain of where we are at becomes greater than the fear of the unknown.

for me, it was easier to see myself as a victim (or even just "passive", to reinforce it in my own mind, until it stopped serving me. at that point it was way too evident that my "ways" were contributing stress and drama and often times inevitable failure and disappointment in my life.

When we truly believe that something better lies on the other side, the fear of change subsides and the pain of the current situation becomes the greater of the two.

i was only able to reach that point when i learned to take responsibility; responsibility for where i was, and responsibility for where i wanted to be, and took active steps to obtain it.

as for how that applies to good triangulation, as i said in another thread, i kind of went the other way. i tried to avoid ever depending or relying on others. i was a bit hypervigilant about triangulating at all. lately, im learning that healthy, grounded people, can recognize their vulnerability, their need to at times rely on others and ask for help, their needs in general, and learn to communicate these things to others in a healthy way, minus the drama.

[pearlsw]

Okay, I am back from an extended period of time with my family. A complicated incident came up and I am hoping to err on the side of good triangulation vs. bad. I shared some information I had heard from an aunt with my older brother about his wife and my brother's biological dad. Are you still with me?

I had heard from my aunt that my brother's bio dad had touched my brother's wife inappropriately at a family event three months ago. It seemed odd at the time, that if my older brother had heard or seen something at the time he would have acted on the spot. I know a lot of us would have if we had known that night. I thought to talk to him about it months ago, but got busy with my own life problems. I was not sure whether my aunt was passing on solid information or where she got her information from exactly. (She has hated this guy since she was a teen and tried in a really dramatic way to keep her sister/my mom away from the guy back then.) And I wanted to check in with my brother about it because it seemed important.

Well, since I saw my bro last week I brought it up and asked if he had heard this information too. Well, he hadn't - not the part about his wife, he had heard it in a general sense though from my aunt (and others perhaps?). His bio dad also apparently inappropriately touched two of our first cousins the same night, and another one the next day in front of an eyewitness who I heard it from directly so that is solid info. (This eyewitness/uncle confronted my mom about it.)

This guy's got issues let's say - which unfortunately makes issues for all of us in figuring out how to deal with him, and with our mom who is married to him for that matter. His presence has been a huge part of why all of our (my brothers and I) don't have very good relationships with our mother. Somehow along the way she "picked" him over us... .in a way. I think she was also isolated and controlled by him a bit, but who knows. She was tough when she met him, but even the strongest amongst us can get worn down or simply give up. He (the bio dad) has a stepdaughter who he admitted to molesting but not everyone knew about this. But the information has been getting around more and more as the extended family spends more time together. I heard it first hand decades ago and tried to help my mom leave him then to no avail.

So anyway, this new information set off my older brother seeking out an uncle of ours (retired cop) for advice about how to handle this current situation. (This isn't the first of my brother's wives his bio dad has done this to either. I saw him hit on his first wife right in front of me ages ago, and she was/is my same age. Sigh.)

My romantic partner had actually heard about it at the time, this recent incident, at the family event a few months ago, and (being impulsive) confronted my brother's bio dad about it. The bio dad guy denied it, but also made an odd comment about my brother's wife wanting him to be at this family event.  I was sure this was not true and it stuck out as a rather odd thing to say.  I wish my partner had not intervened and let me handle it instead since I know the big picture situation better than he does, but he was set off like a lot of people would be by such transgressions... .and what's done is done.

So, I don't know how many corners we have going on this shape now... .but I am just wondering... .I am planning to follow up with my older brother this weekend and see if he is okay and if his wife confirmed or debunked the original information from the aunt. A lot is on the line here. My older bro may cut his bio dad out of his life forever over this. (I also want my younger bro to know as he somehow was extremely late in finding out this molestation stuff about our older bro's bio dad - like twenty or so years late and I don't want him left out of the loop. He was extremely upset when he finally heard, I didn't gossip about it so I didn't know he didn't know all those years.)

I'd prefer to stay out of it and let my older brother figure this out himself and make his own choices, I am not sure he really needs me on this and I don't want to make it into more of a drama than it need be, but... .I also don't want him to feel alone on such a big thing. My basic thing is to offer support and not be a gossip about stuff. Just stick to facts and support and be there to let my brother know whatever he decides to do about this or not do is okay. I mean, I don't think he necessarily ought to take time and energy to fly a few states over to confront his bio dad, but it's his call.

So is good triangulation about having good motives and setting limits? Is it knowing when to get involved and when to stay out of stuff that belongs to someone else? What is my (and my sibling's) role since this is my mom's husband? Many of her siblings are starting to get more and more angry at her for bringing her husband around when he does such things. I think it is better that she not bring him around either. What responsibility does she have in this? None? Some?

I throw my hands up on this. This kind of life drama drives me nuts, but I don't want to stand by and not speak up when it could make a difference in preventing further issues. None of these people, outside my partner, has BPD traits, but issues... .no shortage of those. Ay, ay, ay!

[Meili]

Look at the corners of the triangle. Is there a persecutor, victim, and rescuer? Who are they players in those roles and how do they interact with one another?

This, of course, bad triangulation wherein a pair is destabilized either by the inclusion or exclusion of a third party.

Or, are the corners held by people who are assertive, vulnerable, and caring? Who fills those roles? Does the presence of a third party stabilize the situation?

In good triangulation, the opposite happens. The pair is stabilized by either including or excluding the third person.

Does any of that fit the situation that you are describing?