What is my attorney’s rights to request info on BPDw treatment?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I’m hoping someone will be able to clarify this point for me.

I am presently preparing to separate from my BPDw. We have children and are US expats living abroad. I am aware that my wife was enrolled in a DBT course for BPD for 3  months about a year prior to us meeting one another 10 years ago. This was in the US. She was an adult at the time. I am aware of the institution, the psychotherapist, and exact dates that she frequented this course. Those are the concrete facts that I have.

The preparation for our separation is taking forever and I am sure I probably will have until next summer before I inform her and she receives official notice. Unfortunately she refuses for us to accept any sort of separation without the court’s intervention.

So my question:

I understand that the country in which we reside may have its own laws that I need to discuss with my attorney. However, in the US, in a contentious separation that I expect to be absolute hell with our poor children in the middle, is it possible for my attorney to contact the institution where she had this therapy and request information given many of the abusive behaviors that I will be documenting and declaring? Or can someone explain to me what rights, if any, I would haves in getting her therapy officially noted by the court?

Thanks, LAT

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi all,

I’m hoping someone will be able to clarify this point for me.

I am presently preparing to separate from my BPDw. We have children and are US expats living abroad. I am aware that my wife was enrolled in a DBT course for BPD for 3  months about a year prior to us meeting one another 10 years ago. This was in the US. She was an adult at the time. I am aware of the institution, the psychotherapist, and exact dates that she frequented this course. Those are the concrete facts that I have.

The preparation for our separation is taking forever and I am sure I probably will have until next summer before I inform her and she receives official notice. Unfortunately she refuses for us to accept any sort of separation without the court’s intervention.

So my question:

I understand that the country in which we reside may have its own laws that I need to discuss with my attorney. However, in the US, in a contentious separation that I expect to be absolute hell with our poor children in the middle, is it possible for my attorney to contact the institution where she had this therapy and request information given many of the abusive behaviors that I will be documenting and declaring? Or can someone explain to me what rights, if any, I would haves in getting her therapy officially noted by the court?

Thanks, LAT

[ForeverDad]

What impact would her having therapy a decade ago have on a divorce now?  Yes, it might be nice to have papers to wave around stating her treatment back then.  If you can get it, it might be helpful, though I'm not sure.  If she was trying to claim you made her disabled and she sought long term or permanent support (alimony) on that basis, then proof of her having prior issues might be helpful.  But that is an approach seldom tried.  In general there are a few considerations.

First is that this was a decade ago.  Court usually limits itself to incidents within the six months prior to filing, that is, not legally 'stale'.  Exceptions could be when you're trying to establish an 'actionable' pattern of behaviors.

Second is that courts give more weight to documented behaviors than a diagnosis.  Very few here who face a high conflict divorce ever succeed in getting a diagnosis.  One reason is that a diagnostic label may not indicate the level of impact to the person's parenting.  So we ought to determine what the courts consider as meaningful and work from that perspective.  That's why we encourage documenting the poor behaviors.  (He-said / she-said often goes nowhere.)  Be aware that they generally ignore the poor adult behaviors and concern themselves mostly with the poor parenting behaviors that are deemed as more actionable.

Third is that you need to get solid legal advice for one or both countries.  You shouldn't inform her.  Why?  Sharing is good when you are making a marriage work, but sharing sensitive or confidential information would most likely be self-sabotaging if the marriage is imploding.  Sharing information with her may enable her to sabotage your parenting efforts.  So be well aware that she does not have authority to interrogate you into the wee hours of the morning, nor guilt you nor obligate you nor shame you.

[flourdust]

The short answer is that mental illness isn't necessarily an issue in divorce. A pattern of poor behaviors that have an impact on the children, finances, etc. can be an issue, whether or not those behaviors spring from a diagnosed condition.

[ForeverDad]

To expand on my prior post, my many court hearings with three magistrates, one main judge, one Guardian ad Litem (GAL, children's lawyer), custody evaluator and others had them ALL studiously avoiding naming any diagnostic label.  They determinedly stuck to the documented persistent poor behaviors.  Unfortunately for the first few years they issued quick fixes and concluded they would be successful.  And they would have been successful if not for the continuing conflict.  It wasn't until some three years after my two year divorce that the court agreed there was basis to make me Legal Guardian.

[LightAfterTunnel]

ForeverDad & flourdust,

Thank you for your great responses.

So my thoughts at why recognition by the court of her prior diagnosis was mostly aimed at giving some credence/corroboration to all the detailed events I will be giving. I’m worried, and maybe I just have to accept, that my wife will go off the deep end and start claiming everything against me. I got her to go to therapy together, which lasted 5-6 sessions, and she put on a theatrical show and even claimed I was a drunk and violent! Obviously completely fake claims. I guess in some way I was hoping that recognition for her being treated for BPD would somehow make the courts more quickly raise an eyebrow to the future claims I can only imagine she’ll make while also listening to what I say.

I very much appreciate you making clear to me to focus on the parenting issues. I’ll make sure to do so... .

I’ve already met with an attorney a couple of times to understand the system here. Unfortunately it is quite depressingly conservative and not well integrated or up to speed on psychological problems and family matters. For starters, the attorney told me that if she won’t consent to settle amicably out of court, which she has made very clear, that I must file a claim accusing her of etc etc etc. Even if what I say is true, the whole process of having to accuse her makes me worried about how badly she will react afterwards. Plus the types of proof I must demonstrate, such as police reports or alcohol/drug issues, don’t exist in our case.

As I’m sure you both are more aware than me, the whole thing is risky and needs to be well planned and executed likewise.

Thanks again, LAT

[ForeverDad]

Most of us here do (or did) have concerns about triggering our ex-spouses when making our cases.  However, hiding or failing to air out the history when necessary is not a good strategy.  It can even enable our ex-spouses.  And despite our best attempts to tiptoe around obvious triggers, there's no way to avoid all triggers.  We can even do nothing and our ex-spouses still get triggered or trigger themselves.

So if you have to do something or present information or whatever, then ponder the pros and cons and proceed accordingly.  There's no right or wrong way in our cases, generally just "less bad".  Use your good judgment.

Also try to get a long term perspective on your decisions.  Think where you think you'll be in 5 or 10 years.  From that perspective and look back, what will you wish you had done, looking back from the future you?

[livednlearned]

Hi LAT,

I'm not sure if someone in another thread has recommended Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse by Bill Eddy. Even if the laws are different in your country, the approach that Eddy describes (and the behaviors to be aware of) is very helpful.

The US family law court system is adversarial by legacy, so a lot of us find ourselves being pitted against former spouses, even though courts here seem to forget they perpetuate the very thing they tell parents to stop doing 

I wouldn't invest too much time trying to get the therapy records from 10 years ago. A lot of courts prefer things that are more recent, unless things work different in your country. Can you file a motion for a custody evaluation? If so, that might shine some light on the behaviors you want the courts to see.

If you have reason to think that your wife might file false allegations, that means she is (in Bill Eddy's words) a high-conflict personality (HCP). Someone who is HCP will have a target (you), recruit negative advocates, and be a persuasive blamer, in addition to having some kind of PD. Eddy also describes three levels of BPD difficulty:

*generally cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, not dangerous
*not cooperative, dangerous

For the last one, dangerous includes false allegations of child molestation or domestic violence that lead to legal abuse.

If you are dealing with that last one, then definitely plan your exit carefully. Take a lot of time, be three steps ahead, and create a boatload of documentation. Prepare  yourself for false allegations by keeping a binder filled with receipts in case you have to counter (with documentation) her claims about your whereabouts, even if it is to poke holes in her credibility. Find out from your lawyer if you can record someone without their consent. In the US, those laws differ state by state. Keep a journal, or track what you're doing in a Google calendar (you can print this out as an agenda with everything in chronological order). Photocopy all important documents and store them somewhere safe.

My ex was a former trial attorney and threatened all the time that no court would take my side given his knowledge of the law. It took four years, but I ended up with full custody, thanks to friends here and a good lawyer. Some of it is sheer luck of the draw, like who you get as a judge, and good your lawyer is. All you can do (and it's a lot) is to plan carefully and learn everything you can.

Divorce is very emotional for both partners, whether BPD or not. The more information you gather, the more you plan a safe exit, the better the chances you will come through the storm with your boat intact. She will likely dysregulate no matter what, and that can be scary and also raise eyebrows for people who are assigned to your case.

Work this forum over for help 

It's a great place to get feedback and advice on figuring out your goal, your strategy, and tactics to help keep you and your kids safe, including your wife, who will probably do all kinds of things to make things worse for herself.