Caught Her Red Handed - Part 2

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Moderation note: Relocated from the Conflicted board at members request. Breakup Board posts start here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317685.msg12918316#msg12918316

This is a continuation of Part 1 which was a Conflcited Board thread in its entitety.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317241.

She will often say “just believe in Us”; and then certain things happen as to her ex and I’m like “what the hell is THAT?”

Basically at this moment, she either will be getting her own place by December 1; or she and her ex will indeed “shack back up” together. So she is playing that I now am out of the picture and that she supposedly now will be getting her own place and starting her “new life” without me.

Hence the reason why I am here at this particular time. December 1 is a POSSIBLE big date in her life.

I moved out of my house with my ex wife in 2014 after it was sold.

I’m sick and tired of dealing with her ex and the issues related to him. I don’t have drama and chaos with my ex, which I MADE happen. As I said repeatedly to my girlfriend, her ex is way too close and still lingering. Perhaps he is better at her BPD and didn’t give up on her since their divorce. BOUNDARIES.

[MarkDavid]

Moderation note: Relocated from the Conflicted board at members request. Breakup Board posts start here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317685.msg12918316#msg12918316

This is a continuation of Part 1 which was a Conflcited Board thread in its entitety.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=317241.

She will often say “just believe in Us”; and then certain things happen as to her ex and I’m like “what the hell is THAT?”

Basically at this moment, she either will be getting her own place by December 1; or she and her ex will indeed “shack back up” together. So she is playing that I now am out of the picture and that she supposedly now will be getting her own place and starting her “new life” without me.

Hence the reason why I am here at this particular time. December 1 is a POSSIBLE big date in her life.

I moved out of my house with my ex wife in 2014 after it was sold.

I’m sick and tired of dealing with her ex and the issues related to him. I don’t have drama and chaos with my ex, which I MADE happen. As I said repeatedly to my girlfriend, her ex is way too close and still lingering. Perhaps he is better at her BPD and didn’t give up on her since their divorce. BOUNDARIES.

[formflier]

MarkDavid,

   

Clearly a tough and confusing situation. 

I'm sorry that I can't offer anything more to help the "tough" part... .other than a virtual hug and some encouragement.

I can offer a suggestion on the "confusing" part, especially as it relates to helping you decide a course forward.  You are at the appropriate place to sort through that.  Clearly you have "conflict" (conflicted board) about your feelings for her... .your feelings about your actions... elephants in the room... .and other things.

Perhaps reflecting for a bit... .specifically... .on a couple of issues, without bringing up new issues or returning to other issues, might help you sort through your conflict.

And I’m irate about it; that if things were as she said that she wouldn’t TELL HIM to STAY OUT until December 1. Hence I don’t trust what is going on and feel I am being played and lied to.
 

She has an ex with which she shares legal responsibility for children and property.  Situations like that are going to be "messy".  Add in that she has BPDish traits and it will be "exponentially messy".

Situations like that usually stay messy and are very slow to "tidy up".

Do you want to be involved with a situation like that?

Deceitful and hiding something from me: 10

I'll take you at your word that you are accurately stating how mad you are in response to "deceitful and hiding something".  (note... .it makes me mad too.  I'm a retired Naval Officer... .a "word is my bond" kinda guy.)

Big breath.  It appears she has lied before... correct?  She obviously lied this time... .correct? 

The best predictor of future action is past action... correct? 

(if you disagree or don't feel "correct"... please speak up)

So... is it wise to for you to choose to be in a relationship (of any kind) with a person that regularly does something that puts you at a "level 10" on the anger scale.

Said another way, honesty seems to be a non-negotiable in your value system.  Correct?  (this would be a critical place for clarity)

I'll end with this.  If the two issues in this post can't be solved... .completely... .to where you are "super comfortable" with however they are "solved"... .do you need to be spending any time whatsoever worrying about dishes being returned... .or if she has said thank you for that... .or any other of the many issues swirling around.

   

FF

[MarkDavid]

I cleaned my mess up in 2014. So should she have.

I’m very much of a my word is my bond guy myself. I’m a son of a WW II soldier, so loyalty and your word are huge to me.

The bottom line is we (she and I) made a deal and she repeatedly has this excuse or that excuse. She finally said over THIS that she has had enough of me; that almost strikes me as odd too. Objectively, I have NO reason to not be concerned about ANY of this? Really? “Just believe in Us” she says; I’m more of a show me, don’t tell me kind of person.

I guess I just “pushed her” too far by questioning her about this whole situation (and there are so many others like this birthday situation)? I can’t speak up and ask or challenge? When she demanded from me every re-assurance possible under the sun? I don’t think that is fair in a relationship.

I feel like I do love her, but I am not being treated right or honestly and that things are amiss. And that’s why I wonder why was she fooling around with any of this as to me in the first place? Why didn’t she just move in a different direction long ago? I guess according to her she finally is now; we shall see. The woman was just showing me the comforter she wanted to purchase for our bed 2 weeks ago; now this. I get it that we clearly were having problems, but now we’re just DONE?

[formflier]

  
MarkDavid,

I do want to listen and understand the pain that you are experiencing.  

Is there a way for us to do that AND to have you directly answer the questions I have posed below.  I believe your answers to those questions are critical to any further guidance that I may be able to provide.
I am sorry that you are in a situation where you are faced with these questions.  

FF

 
 
Do you want to be involved with a situation like that?

 
So... is it wise to for you to choose to be in a relationship (of any kind) with a person that regularly does something that puts you at a "level 10" on the anger scale.

Said another way, honesty seems to be a non-negotiable in your value system.  Correct?  (this would be a critical place for clarity)
 

[MarkDavid]

Honesty is not necessarily non-negotiable.  But if there is dishonesty, I sure want to have a pretty darn good explanation.

[Notwendy]

Without getting into the who is right, who is wrong here issues, what I have observed is that you have an idea of who she should be and what she should do and she isn't fitting that.

You say that you cleaned up your marriage mess and that she should have too.

That if she was dishonest, then she should explain it.

That she should treat you a certain way.

That just because there are problems she shouldn't be done with you.

Ok, well you have your expectations, and that isn't necessarily wrong- but the fact is- she doesn't meet them. Now she could have her expectations about you too.

The problem with expecting people to be different than who they are- and that they should be different than who they are is that people are who they are- not always what we expect them to be.

These expectations can run a relationship amok.

This doesn't mean we can't have them. If we expect someone to be honest and keep their word with us in a relationship then we need to seek out someone who also has this characteristic and value. If we are with someone who does not and we are unhappy with them we are not being fair to ourselves or to them.

If we expect someone who is previously married to have cleaned up that mess- then look for someone who has. She hasn't cleaned up her mess. She doesn't have to. It is her mess to do what she wants to do with it.

You might be a military guy and have rules that you live by. Nothing wrong with that. But not everyone lives by these rules and values. She's who she is. It is you that is seeing her as "wrong" here. But maybe it's just different. If you don't want this, then you can choose to not be in a romantic relationship with her.

[MarkDavid]

I'm not a military guy; I'm a son of a military soldier in World War 2.

That said, there is a lot of food for thought.

I guess "honesty" is something I am asking too much for?  I kind of always thought that was a basic concept of "trust" and why one would be in a relationship in the first place. I'm such a "task master" for wanting to not be lied to if I pour myself into the relationship and provide attention non-stop?

I will, though, think about what you have said.  A lot.

[Notwendy]

Honesty is not too much to ask for.

You don't have to justify your wants. It's OK to want what you want.

You are in a position to choose your romantic partner. She has called it off and this is an opportunity to consider what you want. If you want to be with someone who values honesty and integrity with their word- then you can have this- but probably not with her. We can seek out people who share our core values.

All we can do is work with the choices we have. Some people are married with children and may choose to put up with things in order to keep the family together. Some decide it is better to break up than tolerate some behaviors.

It's not so much as what is the one right way. What are your choices and which is the one that is right for you?

If you choose her, then she is who she is.

[Skip]

MD, it would be helpful to coach other members here. Seeing these thing in other relationships and trying to help solve issues for others can really help us.

[MarkDavid]

MD, it would be helpful to coach other members here. Seeing these thing in other relationships and trying to help solve issues for others can really help us.

I would love to do that - “coach” others. The funny thing about that is that in my professional life, that is what I do most of the day - analyze and advise. As for my personal romantic life, I feel that I suck and am not qualified at the moment; I know for a fact due to prior times going through this that I am going through the withdrawals of the addictive aspect of the relationship- there is no doubt I became addicted to this relationship and am panicky, etc... .right now.  So with all that being said, am I qualified right now to comment on the others? I read the posts; I have opinions; but am I too screwed up right now to even comment on someone else? Seriously.

[formflier]

These quotes are not in any particular order.  I think both quotes and the thoughts behind them are incredibly important for you to understand... .and accept... .without any ambiguity or "but she... .xyx... ."

These quotes are much less about her and much more about you and how you make decisions... .how you view others, particularly those that are in relationships with you.

What are your thoughts when you read these quotes?  How do they apply to the conflict you are experiencing at the moment.

FF

If you choose her, then she is who she is.

The problem with expecting people to be different than who they are- and that they should be different than who they are is that people are who they are- not always what we expect them to be.
 

[MarkDavid]

Honesty is not too much to ask for.

You don't have to justify your wants. It's OK to want what you want.

You are in a position to choose your romantic partner. She has called it off and this is an opportunity to consider what you want. If you want to be with someone who values honesty and integrity with their word- then you can have this- but probably not with her. We can seek out people who share our core values.

All we can do is work with the choices we have. Some people are married with children and may choose to put up with things in order to keep the family together. Some decide it is better to break up than tolerate some behaviors.

It's not so much as what is the one right way. What are your choices and which is the one that is right for you?

If you choose her, then she is who she is.

I'm honestly not feeling like I am in any position to make any decisions about anything at this time in life.

As for an update about what is going on in the office, she is parading around like she is the happiest person on the face of the earth; never happier she sounds (though we have talked about this routine in the past and she has said in the past it is an act, and I suspect this is an act, too).  In any event, it's annoying; but it is what I deal with when things get like this.  She has uBPD in HER mind?  OF COURSE NOT!  SHE IS PERFECT IN HER MIND and that is how she presents herself to the world.

By the way as I have not said it previously for a few days, thank you to everyone for their comments and input; it has all been really helpful and comforting as I try to get through what to me is a crisis:   thank you.

[formflier]

  She has uBPD in HER mind?  OF COURSE NOT!  SHE IS PERFECT IN HER MIND and that is how she presents herself to the world.
 

There is a BIG problem with mind reading... .most of the time we are wrong and ultimately we will NEVER know what they are thinking.

"reacting" or "making decisions" about what another person "thinks" is best avoided.  Focus some on what they say and MUCH on what they actually do.

If conflict arises between saying and doing... .almost always best to focus on "doing".

What are your thoughts on what I have just said?

FF

[MarkDavid]

There is a BIG problem with mind reading... .most of the time we are wrong and ultimately we will NEVER know what they are thinking.

"reacting" or "making decisions" about what another person "thinks" is best avoided.  Focus some on what they say and MUCH on what they actually do.

If conflict arises between saying and doing... .almost always best to focus on "doing".

What are your thoughts on what I have just said?

FF

Honestly FF, my reaction to what you said is kind of humorous: you haven’t met my exGF; she is quite the actress.

That said, the main thing I do keep going back to is something you actually said - her “true self”; that’s the one that is the problem.

[formflier]

That said, the main thing I do keep going back to is something you actually said - her “true self”; that’s the one that is the problem.

Please don't view this as multiple personalities.  There is one "her"... .that is her true self... .the same person really is that loving... .then... .poof... .hateful... .then... .poof... .aloof... .the... poof... .(you get the picture).

It's a package deal... .she is not acting she is likely reflecting how she feels at the moment... her feelings change rapidly.

[MarkDavid]

Please don't view this as multiple personalities.  There is one "her"... .that is her true self... .the same person really is that loving... .then... .poof... .hateful... .then... .poof... .aloof... .the... poof... .(you get the picture).

It's a package deal... .she is not acting she is likely reflecting how she feels at the moment... her feelings change rapidly.

Understood. Well that does not bode very well for me, apparently; she’s so happy without me.

[Skip]

Understood. Well that does not bode very well for me, apparently; she’s so happy without me.

How many days has it been?

MarkDavid, when we recycle a lot we start to normalize it in our mind. We think it is ok to go silent on each other - its a normal way to resolve disputes. But its not and each step of the way, the relationship get more damaged.  Then one day it is over and we are stunned.

I hear two voices from you. Your fight bravado. You wounded, I hope she fixes this, whisper.

For better or worse, it would really help to balance those two voices into one mature voice and then move forward in that direction.

[MarkDavid]

How many days has it been?

MarkDavid, when we recycle a lot we start to normalize it in our mind. We think it is ok to go silent on each other - its a normal way to resolve disputes. But its not and each step of the way, the relationship get more damaged.  Then one day it is over and we are stunned.

I hear two voices from you. Your fight bravado. You wounded, I hope she fixes this, whisper.

For better or worse, it would really help to balance those two voices into one mature voice and then move forward in that direction.

11/13/17 was the birthday party dispute

11/17/17 (last Friday) was her parting texts to me

11/19/17 (this past Sunday) was her request for her frying pan and tupperware dish   back

I understand your point about the 2 voices; that is why I am here, though.  VERY RECENTLY promises from her of this bright, happy future, including purchases of all the food she needed to cook for the Thanksgiving I am hosting for my family.  But then on Friday a text from her which reads:
 "I don't want [my ex].  I don't want you.  I will find happiness with someone who loves me every day. Not just sporadically.  Every day.  I have the chance to find that now.  Any you will not make me think otherwise."

Did those words hurt?  Absolutely.

And yes I am here because I am conflicted.  Conflicted as to whether I should (1) cave and go to my old bag of tricks and attempt to "charm her back" or (2) just accept that this toxic relationship will never work and let it go, even if in part it relates to me not having the necessary "tools" to be able to handle this particular relationship.  It is not easy.

[Skip]

But this is a highly sensitive person and you slammed her.

She was deceitful which is destructive. Your reaction was fierce - which is also destructive. Other than destroying things, nothing good come of this.

[MarkDavid]

But this is a highly sensitive person and you slammed her.

She was deceitful which is destructive. Your reaction was fierce - which is also destructive. Other than destroying things, nothing good come of this.

So my response should have been what?  "It's ok, Honey, I know that is a deal that we talked about, but it is ok that you blew right threw that."  I don't understand.

[MarkDavid]

So my response should have been what?  "It's ok, Honey, I know that is a deal that we talked about, but it is ok that you blew right threw that."  I don't understand.

I'm sorry that my reaction to her deceit and then denial of that deceit was not wrapped in a bow; apparently, my shortfall is that I can't react to being deceived in such a manner in order to have a "girlfriend" - that seems really twisted to me and not how I ever operated.

[Skip]

OK that would be "white". You did "black".

What's gray in a situation like this?

[Skip]

that seems really twisted to me and not how I ever operated.

I know. That might be a problem. Sometimes we get locked in self defeating behavior. I'm angry because the paint store gave me the wrong can of paint, so I throw it in the parking lot. OK, it sucked that I got the wrong paint and they should do better. However, now I have to clean up the lot (which takes time) and come up with money to buy more paint (can't return a can I destroyed) and I need to cool down to do a good job.

Anyway, if you want to blast this relationship into the stratosphere and maybe recycle it later, its ok with me. I am not trying to get you to change anything you don't want to change. I can move on to anoher thread  

This might help to read before answering the post above (if you want to):
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[MarkDavid]

I know. That might be a problem. Sometimes we get locked in self defeating behavior. I'm angry because the paint store gave me the wrong can of paint, so I throw it in the parking lot. OK, it sucked that I got the wrong paint and they should do better. However, now I have to clean up the lot (which takes time) and come up with money to buy more paint (can't return a can I destroyed) and I need to cool down to do a good job.

Anyway, if you want to blast this relationship into the stratosphere and maybe recycle it later, its ok with me. I am not trying to get you to change anything you don't want to change. I can move on to anoher thread  

This might help to read before answering the post above (if you want to):
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

What is your opinion as to how you think I should have reacted?  I DO desire your input.  Thank you.

[formflier]

I'm sorry that my reaction to her deceit and then denial of that deceit was not wrapped in a bow; apparently, my shortfall is that I can't react to being deceived in such a manner in order to have a "girlfriend" - that seems really twisted to me and not how I ever operated.

I'm wondering what you can do tonight and tomorrow to be extra kind to yourself... .give yourself a break so you can pickup the hard work of sorting out your "conflict" with a fresh "set of eyes".    Have any ideas you can share with us?

I see a lot of the "early FF" in you.  You have fresh wounds and it's not the least bit fair or "right" how you got those wounds. There are lots of things that "should" happen.  Coming to an understanding that those aren't going to happen led me to embrace pragmatism.  To look for nuance in situations that used to seem black and white.

One of the nuances that you need to understand is a proper response doesn't "get you a girlfriend".  Many proper responses over time will "turn down the temperature" in the relationship and "turn up the trust".  Perhaps a more functional relationship can be found.  

   

Does this make sense?

FF

[formflier]

What is your opinion as to how you think I should have reacted?  I DO desire your input.  Thank you.

There are many ways to give a healthy response... .I'll put an idea out there (and my theory behind it) and I'll invite others to offer their own view and critique of my idea.

The reason to understand several approaches is you don't want to "get stale" by using the same old response... time after time.

For me... .I like to be "authentic".  And it certainly is curious and concerning that words turn out to not be true.

So... .be puzzled.  "Hey babe... .perhaps I don't understand the party situation and your location.  Can you help me sort this out?"

Then... .a bunch of stuff will come out.

"OK... .I'm still a bit confused... how does this apply to our relationship.  Sounds messy with your ex"

Leave it there.

FF

[MarkDavid]

I'm wondering what you can do tonight and tomorrow to be extra kind to yourself... .give yourself a break so you can pickup the hard work of sorting out your "conflict" with a fresh "set of eyes".    Have any ideas you can share with us?

I see a lot of the "early FF" in you.  You have fresh wounds and it's not the least bit fair or "right" how you got those wounds. There are lots of things that "should" happen.  Coming to an understanding that those aren't going to happen led me to embrace pragmatism.  To look for nuance in situations that used to seem black and white.

One of the nuances that you need to understand is a proper response doesn't "get you a girlfriend".  Many proper responses over time will "turn down the temperature" in the relationship and "turn up the trust".  Perhaps a more functional relationship can be found.  

   

Does this make sense?

FF

Actually I do have pretty good options of things to do, so I am fine as far as distracting events go.

Obviously the goal is to just get through Wednesday, then there is Thanksgiving and a long weekend; that should help things and help me clear my head. I hope.

[MarkDavid]

There are many ways to give a healthy response... .I'll put an idea out there (and my theory behind it) and I'll invite others to offer their own view and critique of my idea.

The reason to understand several approaches is you don't want to "get stale" by using the same old response... time after time.

For me... .I like to be "authentic".  And it certainly is curious and concerning that words turn out to not be true.

So... .be puzzled.  "Hey babe... .perhaps I don't understand the party situation and your location.  Can you help me sort this out?"

Then... .a bunch of stuff will come out.

"OK... .I'm still a bit confused... how does this apply to our relationship.  Sounds messy with your ex"

Leave it there.

FF

I understand, but if I would have said that, it would be a bunch of (1) defensiveness and (2) a double-talk long lie explanation just a few days sooner; so I've done that.  That's what I "advanced" to the point of having to flat out catching her in the lie with undeniable proof; the point of this entire story and thread is that she won't even admit to THAT when the "evidence" is placed right before her!

[formflier]

I understand, but if I would have said that, it would be a bunch of (1) defensiveness and (2) a double-talk long lie explanation just a few days sooner; so I've done that.  

And that's where you "leave it there". 

You expressed confusion... you were quizzical and asked for clarification... .we are assuming that you would have gotten continued nonsense and so you then express that you don't understand, you convey your understanding that situations with an ex are messy... .and you leave it alone.

As succinctly as possible  no blame... .no investigations of "should have" "not fair"... .leave the entire topic alone.

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree that you are not in a position to make any decisions at the moment when emotions are raw. You don't have to. It's just that this time apart can give you some time to think .

Enjoy the time with your family, get some rest and hopefully you will feel a bit more clearheaded.