I'm numb but need to show closeness

[defogging]

I'm really struggling with one aspect of my situation.

After all the lies told to me, about me, gaslighting, rage episodes, crazy-making, ridiculous demands, manipulation, isolation attempts, yadda, yadda... .I've lost my feelings towards her.  I don't care to initiate closeness, intimacy, or arrange a date night.  I know this is natural, as trust has been destroyed in our relationship.  On the flip side, it seems at times like she really needs me to give her a hug, show her I care, and that I want to be close to her.

However, giving her what I think she needs deep down is something I don't know I have in me right now.  Past attempts to initiate closeness haven't been worth it, she appreciates it for a moment and then I'm right back to trying to fill the bucket full of holes up with water.

I feel like I know what I need to do, but it feels like it would be fake on my part.  I do believe it would help though.  It feels like living with BPD forces you to eliminate all your own emotional needs and only cater to theirs.  How do you show you care for someone knowing that none of that will be reciprocated?  Any help on re-framing my mindset on this would be appreciated.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi defogging, been there are there and completely understand the feeling of having to take complete care of their feelings and not be able to receive any real care in return. They can talk (and we can listen) for days about how we've treated them badly and all the mistakes we made, but the idea of us suggesting any pain they've caused us is unthinkable. They can't handle it. They already feel empty and when you add guilt on to the emptiness it becomes even more unbearable, at least that's what I've read.

My suggestion is what I've only learned recently and am trying to do myself: give yourself love first. But what is self love?   

Self Love ≠ taking off from work + eating fried chicken all week
Self Love ≠ pitying yourself for being in this situation and putting all the blame on others

Self Love = showing compassion and understanding for yourself for all the pain you have to suffer
Self Love = accepting yourself despite your flaws and past mistakes

You can fake love for her while you're suffering, but you will only suffer more, and probably break down eventually. If you show yourself love, you might find you suddenly have more emotional space to allocate to her needs and feelings without making yourself a casualty. 

Hope this was helpful.

[nuthereggsheller]

Hi defogging,

I'm right there with you, right now.  In my attempts to keep the volcano calm, I continue to give physical, mental and emotional support and affection.  Sometimes I can pull it out of myself to set myself aside and give love for his sake, in a spirit of care for another human being in need.  Other times I feel pretty resentful and just go through the motions to get it over with - a kiss, a hug, or sex.

I honestly don't have any good answers for you, but one way that I've tried to reframe my thinking - and hopefully it will work better for you - is that I counted up the minutes in a day or week that I am in the actual act of providing affection or sex or whatever, compared to the total number of minutes in the day/week.  It is actually a very small amount of time considering the time I spend at work, or taking care of myself, or doing houseworky kinds of things that I do on my own. 

It's not a permanent solution, but maybe a way to deal with your current status while you figure out a healthier solution for the long haul.  The internal struggle is that it doesn't feel sincere except for those times when I can be ultra-altruistic and focus exclusively on his feelings.  But you're right. Our own needs are invisible.  So I look to other things to fill my emotional tank - and definitely not affection from a different romantic relationship! Wow, no!  But, putting my heart into my job, which I love and feeds me emotioinally.  Into interests that light my fire.  It helps.

I know people can go a lifetime without a satisfying emotional relationship, so it's not a matter of survival, but a matter of finding satisfaction and what that requires for you.

Hang in there. No one here can tell you what to do or how to do it, but hopefully sharing some of our own experiences will help you feel not quite so alone while you figure out what is right for you.

All the best to you!

[waverider]

Do you feel like you have lost respect? Once that is eroded then authenticity goes with it.

Is there any areas where you think you might be able to start to rebuild respect?

[pearlsw]

Hi defogging,

Thanks for brining up this topic as it one a lot of us struggle with. RolandofEid, nothereggsheller, and Waverider have already shared some important insights and questions here, and I'd like to jump in a bit too... .

I know I have felt worse on some days than others - certainly on some days I have more to give than others, or want to give more to myself over others. I think it is especially important to avoid becoming resentful as that is a relationship killer for any couple. You are wise not to go outside the relationship - that could bring more heartbreak and problems into your life, increase your problems, more than alleviate them. I try to focus as much as I can on finding happiness in what I can - that's what it takes to get through some days.

I also think doing small things to keep an emotional/physical connection are helpful. I know at times in the past my partner's behavior seemed very repellent to me and I didn't know how to go on, but by embracing him and learning how to better speak with him it made it much easier to be near him. I had to learn to push past my resistance to distance myself further. It took time, but it has improved things.

The better you can feel about yourself and your life can help ease things for you and hopefully in time get to a happier place - on more days than not.

wishing you the best, pearlsw.

[defogging]

Thank you for the replies, this helps.

RolandOfEld - I'm working on self love, and I think that will get better with time.  I'm definitely guilty of feeling pity for myself at times because this isn't what I signed on for, and I feel like I got duped.  The woman I married was sweet, kind, and had it all together it seemed.  Over the last two years she has turned 180 degrees from what I used to see.  I don't blame others, but I do feel resentment towards her sometimes which I need to work on.  Something I've been telling myself lately when I've been feeling down is "It's okay to feel down, look at what I'm dealing with.  But I need to make the choice whether to feel miserable or find the things in life that make me happy."

nuthereggsheller/pearlsw - I won't be looking to another person to fulfill my relationship needs.  I'm big on honesty and being faithful, and I just don't need any more drama.  I've also been trying to find fulfillment in other ways.  My work is not likely to be my main outlet for that, but I have many hobbies I can dig into.  The only problem there is paying more attention to hobbies creates a bigger divide between us as she doesn't share any of them.  She doesn't really have hobbies anymore, just focuses on the kids, her parents her work, and trying to look like the perfect mother.  I think I just need to try and give a little more than what I have been and see where it goes.  I've been wanting to create distance but that is not helping things.  I'm also trying to find fulfillment through the kids and focus on being there for them instead of caretaking for her.

Do you feel like you have lost respect? Once that is eroded then authenticity goes with it.

Is there any areas where you think you might be able to start to rebuild respect?

waverider - Do you mean have I lost respect for her or has she lost respect for me?  I have lost respect for her, because she simply doesn't have it together anymore compared to who I used to know.  I have to do so many more things around the house now just to keep our family from falling apart that I feel like I'm caring for a senior citizen who can barely live on their own.  I'm talking about things she used to automatically do.  Dishes are put back in the cabinets that are still dirty, lights are left on/doors left open every time she leaves the house, she turns off the furnace when it's 35 degrees outside, it's ridiculous.  I don't know if she's lost respect for me.  From what she says to me (I'm lazy, a bad person, I'm mean, etc) it seems she has but I think that's more of the BPD talking than anything.  She has painted me black so I haven't heard anything good said about me in probably two years.

[waverider]

Do you find yourself more in the mindset of a carer than a bonded partner?

The problem when that happens is it goes past duty of care to why am i do this? This is a real passion killer.

When you start losing respect it shows, they pick up on it and double it back on you. The whole situation escalates and can get quite petty and belittling for both partners.

Is there anything you can do to act more like a "team" than someone who appears critical? The perception of criticism is a big trigger for pwBPD.

Do feel she is not motivated buy reasons of obligation and responsibility? This usually shows by lack of putting things away, tidying up etc

[defogging]

Do you find yourself more in the mindset of a carer than a bonded partner?

The problem when that happens is it goes past duty of care to why am i do this? This is a real passion killer.

When you start losing respect it shows, they pick up on it and double it back on you. The whole situation escalates and can get quite petty and belittling for both partners.

Is there anything you can do to act more like a "team" than someone who appears critical? The perception of criticism is a big trigger for pwBPD.

Do feel she is not motivated buy reasons of obligation and responsibility? This usually shows by lack of putting things away, tidying up etc

I find myself in the role of emotional caretaker for her, and trying to protect the kids from her outbursts and guilt trips.  They are young, and don't know how to handle it.  (She gave my two year old a guilt trip yesterday, it was painful to listen to)  I definitely don't feel like a bonded partner.  I have to be the calm one in the house, any reaction on my part (even mild disagreement) can trigger an outburst.  It feels like I have to bottle things up to keep the peace.  I try not to sound critical, but it's hard.  Even if I take a gentle approach by suggesting we look at something a different way, or suggest there are options it will trigger her.  Her way of approaching things is that there is one pre-decided solution (hers), no discussion about it, and if anyone wants to do it differently it's a major battle.  I don't know how to approach that and come up with a solution that we arrive together at as a team.  I'm always swimming upstream to get a compromise in our marriage.  If the issue is important enough I don't care if we battle, we NEED to compromise on certain things.

So yes, I've arrived at the point of "why try?".  It's easier to live separate lives and not face a confrontation every day.  Frankly, the only reason I'm still trying is because of the kids.  I think they will be really damaged if we divorce and they are alone with her a lot of the time.

The trouble is there is such a fine line between being supportive (in a normal way) and being walked on.  I don't want to do nothing for her, but when I do small things for her that any good husband should do it becomes expected the next time, and never appreciated.  Usually when I do something nice for her I feel like a fool afterwards, because it didn't make any difference.  One day my approach seems to work, the next day the same approach triggers her.

I think in the past she was not motivated to clean up or do things around the house, because I was in the FOG and would chase her around and take care of it.  One of the boundaries I've set is letting her clean up the kitchen/house after herself when she makes a mess.  It bugs me, I like a clean kitchen.  But, she took it for granted that I would do it for her so now I don't do it anymore and it's another thing she's mad at me about.  What I meant in my previous description is she's not operating at an adult standard.  She now cleans up after herself, and thinks she did it, but dishes get put away that have food stuck to them.  She's overwhelmed with her schedule (self induced) and is a complete mess at home.

Here's an example:  Our morning routine is her taking the two oldest to school (near her work) and I take the youngest to day care (on my way to work).  They need to leave the house by 7:15 to make it on time.  She sleeps in until 7:00, gets mad at me if I wake anyone up before then, then runs around the house screaming at the girls to wake up, hurry up, we have to leave NOW!  This is under the premise of "they need more sleep".  They leave the house in a mad rush at 7:35, get to school late, and the girls are usually crying as they're being yelled at.  Half the time uBPDw insists on making them a full breakfast in this timeframe, eggs/pancakes.  So, the end result is half the lights are still on, stove may/may not still be on, doors may/may not be closed, dirty dishes everywhere.

Any reasonable person can see there is a better solution.  I've had to take the girls a few times, and I wake them up at 6:45, get them cereal for breakfast, and we leave the house on time to make it to school.  If they need more sleep, they can go to bed earlier.  (Bedtime is 8:30 but uBPDw usually stretches that out until 9:00)  If uBPDw wants to make a full breakfast that's great, but get up earlier to do it.  So, I turn off the stove/lights, close all doors, and leave the mess in the kitchen for her to clean up when she gets home.

The last time I took the girls to school I got yelled at that evening because they "didn't get enough sleep" the night before.  Everything always my fault, never any solution except hers.  It's infuriating. 

The silver lining is my oldest daughter was excited when we got to school on time, because she could go in with all the other kids and not have to check in with the office after the bell.  She said "ugh, we're ALWAYS late when mom takes us, this is great!" 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm just complaining about her, but I'm really lost on how to approach it.  Be nice, get walked on.  Set limits, deal with an angry person all the time.  She's very good at changing the rules of engagement, what worked yesterday is now seen as an attack on her.

[nuthereggsheller]

Defogging,

Wow, you sound like an extremely reasonable, articulate, sensitive and kind person.  I really hope you'll take a moment to absorb those words and feel like someone gets it.

Is she willing to counsel together with you so that your children can have a more functional, calmer routine?

[RolandOfEld]

Hi Defogging, I really admire your strength. Our wives' emotional behaviors are very similar but you have the added strain of taking care of the house / kids. My wife, who is stay at home for now, is generally very organized and good with the house and our S4 and D2 (I'm the one who has occasionally been caught putting less than perfectly clean dishes into the cupboard, though in all fairness I think I'm OK 85% of the time). But when she dysregulates, I sometimes come home to chaos and have to deal with all of it on my own.

I can feel the FOG you're in because I'm often in it, too. And I think a lot of the reason we still give in really is for the kids. We don't want to give them a broken home. But we also don't want to give them a broken father. Recently I've been weighing whether it was worth it to provoke an argument over boundaries if it can help me and possibly our r/s to become healthier at a later time. I'm starting to think it is. A therapist pointed out to me that younger children aren't nearly as effected by parent's fighting as we think they are. Their response to things is situational and they can recover very quickly if the situation does. This doesn't mean we should instigate a conflict at every opportunity. But boundary setting is too important for everyone and I don't see our situations improving if we don't.

Kudos to you for setting the kitchen boundary. To share from my own experience, I'm setting a priority list and addressing boundaries one by one instead of all at once. For example, I don't like her reading my Facebook messages without permission, but this is lower on the list and can possibly be attended to at a later time. Highest on my list right now is letting her know I will be getting back in contact with my family whether she approves or not. The longer I don't talk to them, the more pain on my heart, the worse my mental health, and the less emotional space I have to give her and the kids. I've also expressed that she can't hit the kids. If she tries to and I'm there, I will shield them even if it makes her look like the bad guy. If it happens when I'm out of the room, then I will tell her that's not OK and she needs to apologize. Even if she doesn't, me taking a stand at least shows them this isn't a normal behavior that they should accept.   

[believer55]

Hi Defog... .Thank you for sharing. I don't have any solutions but wanted to let you know... .like the others... .I can feel what you are going through and although we can spend hours validating and learning about BPD and teaching ourselves... .What eventually happens is we burn out and we get tired of being treated badly. It can affect how we see our SO and the way we feel about intimacy.  As far as I can tell I avoid it now as my feelings are so conflicted.  I can just go through the motions because otherwise he bugs the hell out of me. Being intimate seems to calm his abandonment fears... .but then again it often gets worse because I think he has gotten what he wants and feels he doesn't have to behave as well anymore.

It is gruelling and I think is slowly wearing away my physical enjoyment. I try to find something that requires a joint effort or can make us laugh on the weekend to help me feel that bond again when I know it's coming up... .sad I know.

[defogging]

Thank you for the kind words, it is definitely helpful to know other people get what this feels like and that I'm not crazy.     This site is a great reality check when things go sideways at home.

nuthereggsheller - I assume by "counsel" you mean have discussions with me about the situation and how to improve it.  The answer is no, unfortunately.  She has always kept herself insanely busy, her family is well aware and it's the way she's always been apparently.  It worked okay for us in the beginning, before kids.  She would do her thing, and it allowed me time for my introverted side.  But not anymore with three kids.  We've tried parenting classes (Love and Logic) and therapy, neither of those have made an impact.  She doesn't see that there is a problem even though I can see the dysfunction in our kids reactions to her elevated emotions. 

RolandOfEld - You're so right in that sometimes I give in for the kids.  It's a delicate balance between keeping the house calm and standing up for yourself.  This situation brings me back to how I was raised, I had a very quiet father who didn't stand up to my mother very often.  (Normal fights, no BPD in my mom)  I don't want to set that same model for my kids, especially my son.  I've adopted the mindset to be strong and stand up for myself, but admit if I'm wrong.  It's helped to abandon my tendency to be passive about issues.  In the past I haven't done much without checking with the Mrs first, that was my model.  Now, I'm making more of an effort to lead rather than follow or try to obtain approval.  The old saying "better to ask forgiveness than permission" would apply here.  Oddly enough, this works.  She hasn't picked fights with me when I just do something the way I want it done, it's when I ask "how should we do this" that results in a fight because I saw the solution different than she did.

I like your idea of prioritizing my boundaries, I will give this some thought.  Some things I can live with, others certainly not.

I'll give you my $.02 on a couple things you mentioned, hopefully you don't mind.

Reconnecting with family - I agree it's important and you should do it.  When I reconnected with friends this past year I made plans to go hunting with them again instead of her dad, I had hunted with her dad the previous 3 years.  I just did it, told her when I would be out of town, who I was going with, and made it happen.  No pushback from her, no fight.  I've said it on other threads, but my uBPD's bark is way worse than her bite.  If I show strength and do what I want to do she won't fight it.  So, an idea you may try is just start reconnecting and let the chips fall where they may.  That's not to say that I'm unreasonable about things and ignore her/family needs just to "do what I want", it's an assertion that my boundaries include the right to hang out with whomever I choose.

Her hitting the kids - I don't know your situation, but in my world that would be a huge no-no.  My uBPDw has never shown any threat of violence towards me or the kids (yet), so I am lucky there.  My thought would be setting a rule with her.  For example: A situation happened in my house where uBPDw was raging at me at 10:00 at night, grabbed the kids out of their beds and took off in her car with them.  I was naturally worried, not that she would do something to them but she was so out of it she very well could have driven her car off the road or something.  I elected to call her parents and my sister instead of notifying the police (I should have called the PD in hindsight).  She came home an hour later and was calm.  We had a therapy session the next day, and discussed it.  T told us our new rule should be if that happens again, the police get called and uBPDw gets pulled over.  That is our rule, I made it clear to her that I would call the PD, and she hasn't done a crazy thing like that since.  So - Would it be possible to inform your uBPDw that if she hits the kids again, you WILL step in to defend them, document any marks on the kids, video the situation, and call the police?  Not trying to tell you what to do or be preachy, but man, the thought of my wife ever hitting our kids makes my blood boil.

believer55 - What you say is so true.  My wife's touch almost gives me shivers sometimes, as I've realized she's not the person I thought she was.  I don't know (and probably never will) who she really is.  I haven't made any overtures to her in months, but that separation is making things worse and I think I need to try and be physically close again just to improve the situation.  For us, I've learned that if we do something as a family it usually ends up being fun as we both enjoy the kids, so I guess that is my way of creating that bond again.  The frustration for me is that I really enjoy one on one time with each kid, I think that strengthens their bond with dad and allows them to be heard.  uBPDw always needs all three of them around, so it's all or nothing, and the bonds get diluted when you are managing all three at once.  It's a shame she doesn't see that.

[crunchtime]

I've heard this term called "Compassion Fatigue."

"Compassion Fatigue is a state experienced by those helping people or animals in distress; it is an extreme state of tension and preoccupation with the suffering of those being helped to the degree that it can create a secondary traumatic stress for the helper." -Dr. Charles Figley.

Might I recommend a book to you? It's called "When I Say No I Feel Guilty." It's a book about assertiveness training. I'm reading it myself, and need to re-read it. Seems very applicable here. Anyway... .

My girlfriend just cut herself for the first time in a long time, and blamed me for it. She said she did it because I don't love her or care about her. Then proceeded to tell me she'd sacrifice her life for me and would never allow me to be 'so alone' and 'forsaken.' That she would do anything for me.

(It's taken me a while to realize that saying those things are, in and of themselves, MANIPULATION)

... And then that she just talked to someone on the Internet who "cared more about her than her own boyfriend."

I've cut myself for years. I've experienced it. Maybe that's why I'm more pissed off than empathetic to her now. She says she'd sacrifice her life for me and yet she dumps all of this on me? And OF COURSE the person online seems to care more about her. That's because they haven't been traumatized by years of emotional and verbal abuse in a head**** of a relationship. They only see her from a distance. Of course it's easy to be compassionate when it's only a one-time deal and they don't actually KNOW the person.

I can understand your anger completely. And it's the same thing: show "love" and "care," and get stepped on. Set boundaries, and deal with backlash.

My only response now is just to let myself not be as compassionate. She never really appreciated me showing up all those times at 2 in the morning to help her with feeling lonely, and having drank way too much, and self-destructing, and then blaming it all on me anyway. She just keeps doing it. And every time I show her "compassion" and "love" like she wants, it just reinforces to her that her manipulation of me is working.

I am at the point now where her telling me she needs "love" and "support" actually infuriates me. It makes me angry. Like the last thing in the entire world I would want to do would be to show her love or support.

And of course, I'm blamed for that too. She takes no accountability for her behavior in relation to my emotions, but then expects me to take full accountability for my behavior in terms of her emotions. It's a double standard to an exponential degree.

I not only don't want to be a martyr anymore. I CAN'T. If she wants to get mad, then fine. Be mad. Blame me for your own self-destruction. I don't even have the energy to care anymore.

I'll feel angry like that, and then... .she'll pull the "I miss you," and how much she's in love with me, and all the sad romantic stuff, to get me back on the hook. And generally speaking I fall for it every time.

At some point you just NEED to focus on yourself. Be more selfish. Hang out with friends. Do stuff with people that make you feel good about yourself.

And honestly, I think this is a remedy for the relationship problem itself. It might be more comforting to a BPD to know that you're going to be there for them, just that you will not tolerate being abused. And that you taking time for yourself doesn't mean you're abandoning them, but if they want to interact with you, they need to treat you with respect, or you won't have it.

We are so far beyond needing to give MORE "love" and "support." When will it be enough? When will it fill the magic amount of emptiness in a BPD and finally fix them? NEVER.

We only have this one life to live. Not worth spending it nailing ourselves to a cross for people that don't even appreciate it. Or what's more, while we're hanging on it, they'll tell us we never loved them!

By the way, she was just telling me how I'm "subhuman" and a "sociopath" because I have a tendency to stop talking to her when she starts abusing me. She doesn't see her abuse as abuse. That's where the feeling crazy comes from. And her sense of self-righteousness. If she cuts herself, or drinks too much, or does some other self-destructive act, I'm supposed to drop everything I'm doing and be there in a heartbeat with all the love and support I could ever possibly muster.

Anyone would get tired of that after a while. Self-preservation is key here. Do NOT allow yourself to feel guilty and dragged down by her tantrums/accusations/whatever.

Ah, well... .I could keep writing, but I've said enough for now. You're not alone. Definitely not alone. I was going to make a thread similar to this before I saw yours, as I'm in the same situation.

Long story short: it's OK to be selfish. Especially after we've been conditioned for so long in the relationship to put self-sacrifice on a pedestal, and think our partner's needs are greater than our own, simply because they're more dramatic and extreme about expressing them. The reality is they're not more important than our own, and since they are clearly not capable of meeting our needs, we need to be responsible for meeting them for ourselves.

Taking time alone, refusing to engage in abusive interactions, etc.

[defogging]

crunchtime - Wow, so much truth in what you posted.  I have to say that you hit a chord with me on a few statements you made. 

"And honestly, I think this is a remedy for the relationship problem itself. It might be more comforting to a BPD to know that you're going to be there for them, just that you will not tolerate being abused. And that you taking time for yourself doesn't mean you're abandoning them, but if they want to interact with you, they need to treat you with respect, or you won't have it."

So much wisdom in that statement, I feel like that is what I'm trying to accomplish.  She can have all of me until the abuse starts, but when it starts I'm out.  Establishing that line is so hard, I need to be so wary of where the line is and not allow myself to go over it, or else we're in the same cycle.  But at the same time not be so aggressive with boundaries that she retreats from me.  Something I'm working towards.

"Anyone would get tired of that after a while. Self-preservation is key here. Do NOT allow yourself to feel guilty and dragged down by her tantrums/accusations/whatever."

I'm getting better at this, but miles to go.  For me, it's little things that happen multiple times a day.

Here is tonight's example:  She picked up the girls, I picked up my son.  Family movie night planned.  I got home with him 30 min before they got home, ordered dinner to be delivered and was waiting for them.  They got home, we got ready to watch and for dinner to arrive.  She discovered my son had a poopy diaper, sarcastic comments "how long did you have this?", "I guess I'll be the one that changes it", etc.  Food arrives, I get the kids set up and give their food to them, then get my own.  Her - stomping around making sure the kids drink water, cajoling them to eat their food, martyring and not serving herself, etc.  No reason for it, just a crabby attitude about everything.  Me - I'm getting better at this - I ignored the bait, let her change the diaper, sat down and ate my food and said " hey hon, why don't you get some food".  My son didn't have a poopy diaper when I was there with him alone, I would have changed it if he did.  The typical guilt trip, she's always the victim.

"We are so far beyond needing to give MORE "love" and "support." When will it be enough? When will it fill the magic amount of emptiness in a BPD and finally fix them? NEVER."

Absolutely, the answer is NEVER.  I'm done trying, she needs to learn her limits and self soothe.

Your last BOLD statement is so true.  A couple months ago I decided I needed to kick myself in my own ***, do what I need to do, and make myself happy.  Get my workouts in, create time for me to spend with my kids, make time for my friends/hobbies, do a better job at work, and not give a **** about her complaints.  It is helping, but it's an ongoing struggle.

You mentioned a book, which I appreciate and will look into.  Allow me to throw out a couple suggestions for you that have helped me:  Look up David Goggins and Jocko Willink on Youtube.  Former Navy Seals that do public speaking, and Jocko has books and a podcast.  Their view on determination has helped me set a new standard on what I want from life and made me realize that this isn't it.  The most important part is it comes from within yourself and we need to find that.

Anyways, too much babbling for now.  Good luck to you brother, I'm with you and hopefully we can both find our paths forward.

[crunchtime]

defogging

There have been plenty of times where I snapped, but not in an inappropriate way. I just got so mad I just sternly looked her in the eye and told her as seriously as I've ever spoken in my life:

":)on't ever talk to me like that again. If you want to talk to me like that, there's the door. Go. Otherwise, change how you're talking to me. I'm not going to listen to this."

And there've been times where it was a bit coarser than that. But every time, she seemed to listen. Intently. I made it crystal clear that I was not going to entertain her insults/degrading/demeaning BS. I think at least once I was able to control my anger enough to even tell her that I love her. I fit that in there somewhere. Something like "Listen. I love you, but I'm not going to listen to you talk to me like this."

To try to make it clear that I wasn't trying to verbally abuse her or hurt her feelings, but simply draw a line in the sand. A very stern line. The followup is essential too: if you say you're not going to take it anymore, then you need to have a plan for something you can actually do to get away if she keeps it up. There have to be real consequences. She has to see that you really are not going to tolerate it. Simple solution could just be removing yourself from her presence and going and doing something else, and not giving in if she tries to reel you back in.

With my girlfriend, her response would often be an about-face: apologizing to me, hugging me, or something like that. It's important not to get stuck there either. I would still say something like "I need some time to cool off" after hugging her back or just showing that I do love her, but I don't want to send the message that she can manipulate my boundaries by tugging on my heart strings.

Although an apology is a step in the right direction. It can be hard for me to accept apologies because of lifelong low self-esteem, but in reality, I'm glad when she does that, because it shows her willingness to change of her own free will, out of respect for a boundary I put down. How long that lasts is another matter. Lol.

My customers take advantage of me. So do a lot of other people. The common denominator is my own assertiveness. Focusing on that can help us take our power back.

I forgot to mention one other book: "No More Mr. Nice Guy." That is a good read and I also recommend that one.

I'll check out the YouTube videos you mentioned. Sounds good.

Good luck to you too, and I know we'll find our way. We're already on the path. Just takes awareness and repetition. And bracing for people's reactions: if you're assertive all of a sudden when you haven't been, you might get some backlash. I would think of it almost as a test. Like a child testing their parents to see what they can really get away with. They need to get the message that the old you that tolerated this BS is no more.

The irony here is that being more stern will probably help you love her more too. When you stop letting her sink her fangs into you and suck the life out of you, all of a sudden it might seem a lot easier to love her. And GENUINELY. When my girlfriend is draining my energy and nagging me the last thing in the world I want to do is show love and support for her. Just what you mentioned in the original post.

But when I feel energized and am enforcing my boundaries, I'm more excited to see her and feel much better about it. Just remember not to lose faith/hope, as you're dealing with a BPD relationship, which is much more difficult than a "normal" relationship. Your efforts might not seem like they're going so far at first but it's only because the ante has been upped a lot because of the BPD.

You sound like you're on the right track. I can tell you've got the same fire in you that I have, it's just at least for me, it tends to be buried pretty deep. The fire that makes you assert yourself, and makes you fully feel that you have a right to your own life, your own time, and your own enjoyment.

[crunchtime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIrT1eHs1b0

Watching this one this morning. Thanks again for the recommendation. This is some powerful stuff.

[waverider]

The irony here is that being more stern will probably help you love her more too. When you stop letting her sink her fangs into you and suck the life out of you, all of a sudden it might seem a lot easier to love her. And GENUINELY. When my girlfriend is draining my energy and nagging me the last thing in the world I want to do is show love and support for her. Just what you mentioned in the original post.

 

This is important. They lack strength, priority and direction that is why they lean on others, and when others bend they are not getting what they lack. hence they get ever more frustrated when you act like a doormat. As you rightly point out your real strength is by not bending, but in a clear, consistent and just way. If you instead push back out, which is the instinctual thing to do when you get frustrated, then things escalate the other way.

The moral is be selectively firm when it counts without pushing back. Resistance rather than reaction.

[RolandOfEld]

I think crunchtime gives a great scenario example. I went into a similar confrontation with my wife this weekend but the results weren't as good.

Long story short, my wife had given me one week silent treatment because I criticized her for something, or so I thought. It turned out it was really because she thought I was trying to avoid my problems by leaving conversations that turned abusive ("I can't communicate with you" is her response to his behavior). After a period of self compassion, I felt strong enough to go talk to her about it. I expressed that leaving the conversation didn't mean I didn't love her or want to communicate, but needed time to calm myself down so I wouldn't be mean. She says she can't accept it and needs me to stay in the conversation no matter what and asked what exactly would make me leave. I answered a bit too honestly "insults, profanity, emotional violence, physical violence, etc... ." Her response in short was asking me if a wife was treating her husband like that, why didn't I just divorce her and what was my problem? Why stay and keep complaining if that was how I felt? Some more back and forth until she asked me to explain to her what she couldn't accept in terms of communication. I answered her "leaving the conversation" without directly promising not to do it, but more acknowledging how important this was to her (validation). She also explained to me how I should get her something if she's upset to calm her down, in this case some fruit. I said OK. She was instantly neutralized and back to normal.     

I don't know if I handled it the right way. I acknowledged her needs and while I didn't promise to fulfill them, I think she took it as I would. She needed the blame taken off her and I suppose I did to some degree. I don't think leaving the conversation or ignoring her will ever work with her. 

The takeaway was I understood her illness in a new dimension and how I wasn't going to get what I needed from her unless she gets treatment. We as the non-BPD want the same love we give them, namely understanding their faults and accepting them. For a pwBPD, giving that kind of love is like trying to carry someone with a broken leg. They already feel empty, so when you add some honest expression of how their behaviors hurt us it adds shame to that emptiness and they'll do anything to project it onto the nearest target (us). I can't expect this from her now, but I can give myself the self love I never used to. I think that is enough for now.

Any thoughts from the group? Do I have to leave the conversation if it turns ugly or can I just face it with self love and not answer the way she wants?   

[believer55]

Hi all

Roland

Any thoughts from the group? Do I have to leave the conversation if it turns ugly or can I just face it with self love and not answer the way she wants?

I turn my back all the time. Our usual pattern of conversation ends up with lots of "You... ." statements from my hBPD. You did this... .you made me feel this... .you need to accept responsibility... .you need to change... .all directed at me.

At this point I now say to him... .this conversation is no longer productive and I think we need to take a breath and come back to it. He never likes this and will say I am avoiding or that it is a sign he is right and I am to blame... .or he will escalate and say I shouldn't ignore him.

The problem is once we hit that point I know there is an hour of lecturing coming all directed at me and I won't take that anymore. If he tries to engage again before he is ready to listen... .I walk away again. My head can't take the lectures and hypocrisy anymore so I have found this the best for me but that doesn't mean the experts will agree

Eventually - maybe the next day - or the next, he is ready to listen and he can focus on what we are saying rather than the intense emotions running through his head. Then I will sit down and talk with him. In our haouse this happens every 7-10 days and it affects our 4 teenagers.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi believer55, thank you for sharing your experience. Good for your for not sitting through the lectures anymore (I have sat through too many, like a child being lectured by a parent). Managing your relationship with your spouse with an audience of 4 teenagers must be a tremendous challenge. As I said to defogging, children can be a paralyzing factor in setting boundaries, but also a mobilizing factor. I hold back because of what I don't want S4 and D2 to see, but setting these boundaries in the long run will be better for all.

With my wife, the conversation hits a roadblock for me in the following situations:

1) Asking impossible questions ("Why haven't you changed?"
2) Profanity
3) Emotional abuse ("No wonder you're so stupid, your mother was, too. Good thing she's dead".)

Anyone see similarities? Thankfully it doesn't get to level 3 too often. But there is no listening to my feelings when she is dysregulated like this. And like you believer I get the avoiding speech all the time and how "I can't face my problems." I know now that she is mostly likely projecting her feelings about herself, so it doesn't hurt so much anymore. It's really a step by step process and seeing everyone's experience is a very helpful guide.

[Mrb87]

This is the same exact feel I have right now. I'm so numb I'm trying to repair before I try to help the fake relationship I've been in. My partner might be in pain but I've been manipulated so much I just think it's another trick that I ignore it until I can fix myself after I've been getting cheated on, lied to, and criticized after I've been doing nothing but good in the relationship 110% good and supportive. I've been taking everything that's been thrown at me and more and I've reached my limit. I'm still here but I'm done. I have to numb myself because if don't I will get hurt again. I don't plan anymore special event, birthdays, dinners, or anniversaries  either because I don't wanna waste my money on something that is fake. Also I don't wanna get my hopes doing something special for him and then get nothing in return later on when it's my birthday or something. I do hold any expectations for him because I always get 0 from him and I don't want to get my hopes up.