Trying to turn things around with wife having an affair

[Jumpin’ Jack]

This is an extremely long story, but I will try to keep the intro short. My wife went on a business trip this summer and came back a changed person. I found out pretty quickly she had kissed another guy. She had never so much as kissed another guy in her life.

I was hurt, I talked to her about working past this and forgiving and she said she wasn’t sure if she wanted to work past it. Our relationship really started to break down. I spoke with a mutual friend of ours (since first grade) and she said that she cannot diagnose, but she works in a field where she deals with lots of mental health issues, and it it is safe to say that as long as she has known my wife, my wife has been clinically depressed. After many hours of talking, she mentioned she may also have a personality disorder of some kind. Another person in my support network has a mother-in-law with BPD and said I should look into it. Although not every trait of a BPD person matches, I found myself say, oh, that’s how she can blame that on me, how she can say that, and hurt me so deeply and think nothing about it, how she ... .So a fair bit of what I have read is consistent with BPD traits, although I obviously cannot declare my wife has BPD.

I have tried the “what you are doing is wrong” at length, and she admits that what she is doing is wrong, and completely unacceptable, but she has no intention to change. I estimate since the beginning of August I have spent 1400 hours trying to save my marriage, and a lot of it has been working in the wrong direction it seems. It has greatly impacted all other areas of my life.

I tried using what is here called the S.E.T. Approach when I sat down with my wife after her last business trip and got her to admit that she had had sex with this other guy. I felt that actually, in a weird way, even though it destroyed me as a person, went “well”. I was looking for too much positive effect from a few incidents though and I went into panic mode when the topic of the next paragraph came up.

I am trying to figure out how to set boundaries that are appropriate, without giving in, but without pushing her away. For example, next week her lover is planing to fly to our state and they are planning a 5 day, 4 night “vacation” in a hotel. She hasn’t admitted directly that is the plan, but she has been very indiscreet about it, and doesn’t care really if I know. She says she loves him, she doesn’t love me, and although they have not figured out how they can be together permanently, she basically uses her unhappiness to justify whatever. It bothers me that she is spending a large sum of money on this, and I pressed her about that, and she said she got a raise at work and that would cover it. She is paranoid about who knows what. When people find out, they often want to help, but she feels such intense shame. I don’t know if I should tell people about this trip, try to stop it (seems like stopping it is a bad idea, she will just resent me for that), or if I should just not tell people or not tell people, but if they ask where she is, tell the truth.

I also struggle with finding the right boundaries when she communicates with him constantly.  She lives in the basement now and interacts very, very little with the family. I am trying to take care of our 3 daughters, and if I ask her for help because multiple need help with homework, getting ready for bed, etc, she thinks I am just trying to get her off the phone with him and nothing else.

She hates to be in the same room as me now. She says I am a good father, and a good husband, but she simply doesn’t love me, but the next minute she blames me for this and that and everything, if I clean, it wasn’t good enough, for many years she has beaten me down verbally about things like putting things in the wrong place in the dishwasher and all kind of other things that seem trivial. I stand up for myself, and she backs down, and then she comes with more force.

Effectively, I think in her mind, we are divorced. Yet she got paranoid the other day when she thought I was talking to an attorney. She bought some things to fix a cabinet the other day in a cabin that we own that we would likely have to sell in a divorce (she has mentioned this a couple times and how she would hate to lose the cabin, going so far as to tell me with a straight face that she thought about staying with me just to keep the cabin). It would make no sense to make this minor improvement if we were going to sell it. So she is out the door, but not because whenever I ask her about her plans, she says a bunch of things that make no sense and admits she hasn’t figured anything out yet, despite having spent many hours talking to her lover about what might work.

I love my wife dearly, and I know she is hurting inside. I am too. Our communication has really, really broken down. I have made some progress here, getting her to at least tell me when she is planning to come home so that we can plan meals appropriately, but she doens’t tell me when things happen to her, why she has been going to the Dr., etc. We tried 3 sessions of couples therapy before she backed out. She says she thinks clearly and I am the crazy one. I suffer from moderate anxiety, and mild depression, but those have both skyrocketed with this. I am working closely with my Dr. and a therapist on my end of things, but I struggle to care about myself at times.

I tried to get her sisters and parents involved, and they believe that what she is doing is wrong, but it seems clear she just walked over them all these years too, her parents blundtly admitted that. When she found out I told her parents, she said “I thought I would always love you, just in a different way than I used to, but now I hate you.”

I am trying to figure out things like how to properly communicate with her. For a while, I sent her a short text, morning and night, just saying things like “Good Morning, I love you” along with another short message like “I miss you” sometimes. I don’t know if this was good or bad, but I discontinued this on her last work trip because she says she wants space and I just totally left her alone because she feels I micromanage her life. I never started again sending those messages becuase I didn’t know if they caused more harm than good.

Any advice people have about the trip, her communicating with him constantly and in front of me (she stopped Doing this for a while, but has started up again via text and talks to him in the house again now when she is on a different floor or when I get home she is often talking to him), or about general messages of love or communication would be most appreciated.

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[Tattered Heart]

Hi Jumpin' Jack,

I'm really sorry to hear how things are going in your marriage. I can only imagine the hurt you must be feeling.

As for getting other people involved in the hopes that they will intervene on your behalf, I would advise against this. THis is forming a Karpman Drama Triangle and could further isolate her. I would suggest though that you do get people in your life that can help you begin understanding your own boundaries in regards to your situation. Do you have a strong support system? If not, who can you enlist in this system?

Should you tell people where she is while she is gone? I think it's important that when someone is making bad decisions they must deal with the consequences of those decisions, whether good or bad. I also think it's important that you are able to maintain some dignity for yourself in this situation while at the same time not covering for her. Taking all that into consideration, how could you accomplish all of those things in response to the question "Where is your wife?"

As for the rest of the situation, it sounds like your W has a pretty sweet deal going on. She gets to have an outside affair, stay in your family home with the kids, and gets the financial stability that comes with staying in the home. What are your values in regards to allowing her to continue having an affair while living with you and how can you prevent your values from being violated? What is this teaching your children? What could you do to make reality a little more clear?

[Jumpin’ Jack]

Tattered Heart,

Thanks for your reply.

I do have a strong support system. I have really needed it these past few months.

I am not sure how to answer “Where is your wife?”. I have been advised to be honest if asked, and not spread like wildfire if not asked.

Your questions about values I have considered before. I am not sure what to do here. She knows I find the situation unacceptable. That said, I cannot legally kick her out, if I leave, it impairs my custody argument, and if I divorce her, I do the very thing I am trying to avoid in all of this.

I have tried a lot of things to clarify what is going on by asking where this is heading and what her plans are, she doesn’t seem to think ahead at all, which is unlike her in the past, and is just living in the moment. Her primary objective is happiness, and she told me that when I told her there is more to life last week. She said, not for me, happiness is pretty much it. That historically has not been her at all.

[Meili]

I would like to join Tattered Heart in welcoming you to the family.



I completely agree with her about not getting others involved.

As for the "Where's your wife at" questions, I also agree with TH on that, but I will add that it is possible to walk the line of being honest and true, and not disclosing information to everyone on the planet.

You mentioned boundaries and your wife's telephone calls. I want to point out that boundaries are not to control another person, but rather about you and for you. There's no way for you to control whether or not she does that.

That being said, there's nothing that requires you or allow your kids to be around her when she's chatting with the OM (other man). Take the kids and go do something. It doesn't have to be as drastic as threatening divorce. Your wife is going to do what she is going to do.

[takingandsending]

Hi Jumpin' Jack.

I will echo Tattered Heart in saying I can only imagine how much hurt, anxiety, anger and sadness you must be feeling. The question about values is critical, but it may be that right now, you have been normalizing an abusive situation for such a long time that it is hard to get clear on what your core values are. That would be very understandable. In my own experience, I found it very hard to connect to what I believed in.

A little trick helped me. I hope it helps you. How do you feel you would treat someone who was in a similar situation as you? Turn that around - that is a core value about how you should be treated. Oddly, I found I could connect with my core values when I considered how I would treat someone else who happened to be having the same experience as me. Once you identify a couple of your stronger core values, these become the basis for setting boundaries. If you believe that honest speech, of fidelity, or simply not treating someone unkindly is a core tenet of how you show up in the world, then these become the boundaries with your wife.

And, in all likelihood, she won't like them, and her behaviors may get worse. But you can only be responsible for your actions and your behaviors. That's why T Heart suggested allowing her to have the consequences of her owns actions when you are asked "Where's your wife?". Just as your wife is choosing her immediate happiness, you need to make choices for you that will help with your long term health and well being - do things that are good for you, like working with that support system, seeing a therapist. You can't do all of the relationship work for both of you.

Once you start setting boundaries, it can feel weird, almost like you are detaching from your wife. My method was to follow a type of S.E.T., i.e. validate what wife was feeling (as best I could tell), express understanding for the feeling (often failed this step because I really didn't relate much to her feeling), then identify my core value around civil, kind speech, and state boundary that I could not continue the conversation without respectful speech. Over time, it did work. My wife would bait and attack me but knew when I stated my boundary that she could not continue to escalate the drama because I was not going to participate. When she tries to make you responsible for her behaviors, that's a boundary I would consider setting. "Your happiness is important, and I understand you want to be happy. I am not happy with your behavior, and my happiness is important, too. I will not be responsible for your behavior or choices. I will not lie for you. If you are done with this marriage, you need to be responsible for your choice."

How old are your children, and how are they dealing with the recent changes in their mom's behavior?

[Jumpin’ Jack]

Meili and takingandsendi,

Thanks for your input.

As far as my wife’s calls, she uses them to both make me feel uncomfortable and to have an excuse to hide in the basement and leave me to watch the kids myself. I feel like she is treating me unkindly by flaunting her affair in my face when she sits and mocks me when she is on the phone. I have been advised by others that I should not vacate the house when she is the one exhibiting bad behavior. I am not sure what to do with that one. Fidelity is a core value for me, but in-tact families are probably the most important thing to me. I think it is inappropriate for her to spend hundreds of dollars of our money on a vacation with her lover. I would like to set a boundary to protect our family and finances here, but am not sure how.

Thank you for the example boundary. I am trying to learn about these in a book I am reading, and have spoken with multiple people about setting boundaries just today’s and I don’t have an intuition around how to do this yet.

My daughters are 10 (almost 11), 8, and 4. My oldest is really acting out a lot. I am trying to do the S.E.T. Method with her some. I am looking into therapy for her. My other 2 are doing better, but they know what is going on generally too. My wife told my youngest the earnings were from “her friend” (they know is name from before things got out of hand). My oldest picked up on the fact that the shirt she had must have been from him too. My oldest doesn’t know what to make of any of this.

If I try to tell my wife she is hurting them, she says I am overexagerating to try to get her to stop, yet she was the one who told our couples therapist when he asked how our kids were taking this “I don’t know, they don’t talk to me, ask him”.

[Jumpin’ Jack]

Tattered Heart asked me what I could do to make reality a little more clear for my wife after commenting that my wife has it pretty good right now.

I have thought of several things and received a number of suggestions, but none of them stand out as a good idea necessarily.

1. While she is gone, sell/donate all of her clothes to pay for her vacation (either $ or a tax write-off for donation)

2. While she is gone, remove the bed from the room she is staying and the couches from the lower level of the house and get rid of our nice air mattress.

3. Don’t leave her alone when she is on the phone with him since it is my house too. This just about got me thrown down the stair a week or 2 ago the one time I tried it.

4. A bunch of ideas to get others involved, which hasn’t worked so far, and has been advised against multiple times on this board already.

5. Sit in her car when she leaves for her trip. Petty, but it would make me feel good.

6. While she is gone, pack up all of her stuff and bring it to her parents’ basement.

Like I said, I don’t know that any of these are good ideas. 2 and 6 seem most reasonable, but I don’t know if any are a good idea with someone who frequently shows signs of BPD traits.

I simply find it very hard to accept that she is going on vacation with her lover and will do things that I thoroughly disapprove of, and she is going to spend a bunch of money in the process at an already heavy spending time of year. I honestly cannot believe this is my reality right now.

[Tattered Heart]

takingandsending had some great ideas on how to help you determine the best response. I also look at what I would tell someone else in the same position to do. Your best decision will allow YOU to maintain dignity without begging, controlling, or trying to change your wife's behavior. What does the MC think you should do in regards to your situation? He may be a resource that can help you both walk through a step by step process, setting up clear goals along the way.

Selling her items probably wouldn't be the best idea as she could say that you stole them and that could put you in quite a big mess. Sitting in her car so she can't leave is a form of controlling behavior and that will just cause an escalation.

When she is on the phone with the other man is she talking about you in front of you or is she hiding away? I like Meili's suggestion of removing the kids from in front of her when she is on the phone. I'd also remove yourself from her presence too so that she doesn't get attention for what she is doing. Don't make a big show of it. Something as simple as "We are going for ice cream while you are on the phone." or "When you are off the phone come join us in the living room" or even more directly "When you are on the phone with your bf, it is unfair for us to witness this so we will not be in the room."

Have you talked to a lawyer about what you can and cannot do legally in regards to packing up your W's things and moving them to her parents?

Is the $ for vacation coming from a shared account? Can you open an account just for you and let her handle her own part of the bills? Give her an itemized invoice for her cost of running the household every payday or month so that she only has her money to spend on things?

One other thought. I can only imagine how hard this is on the kids. If your kids approach you with the hurt of this, comfort them, but I would also encourage them to tell your W directly how her behavior is affecting them? Don't coach them into what they are feeling but if they come to you with it, this is a great time to teach them a little about boundaries and conflict resolution within themselves.

[takingandsending]

Hi Jumpin' Jack,

Tattered Heart is providing advice I took and others have taken in establishing independent accounts to protect your family from financial hardship when a spouse or partner begins to act recklessly with money. It really is a frustrating situation to be in, trying to protect your family when your wife seems set on acting destructively. But, there really is nothing you can do to change or control her behavior. Your wife is responsible for and the only one who can change her actions.

You shared that an intact family was one of your highest values. I respect that. I know that for personal or religious reasons, many people (men and women) have placed the family as first and foremost in how they address a spouse/partner with BPD. I spent 2.5 years myself doing absolutely everything I could to try to rationalize, create, discover a scenario where I could keep my family together. I absorbed my xw spending $7000 of our money during a business trip, to purchase face products for herself. In the end, we weren't intact, even though we were together. My sons weren't intact - they were suffering and fighting and uncertain of living in a very reactive household. I hope you can spend some time within your support network to kind of feel out what being intact means for you. And, turn this around, what would you advise someone in your situation to do to remain intact?

[Jumpin’ Jack]

Tattered Heart and takingandsending,

Thank you again for your replies.

When my wife is on the phone, she is typically in the basement by herself. Occasionally elsewhere. When she is texting, she is anywhere, including in front of my dying Mom a couple months ago.

It sounded like it was OK for me to pack her stuff up and move it, as long as I in no way prevented her from coming back. (Don’t physically remove her, don’t change locks, etc.)

All of our accounts are currently shared. She talked about wanting her own account and credit card. I didn’t really say much, because she can certainly do that if she wants - how would I stop her? I said I didn’t want to pay for her affair, and she said that was fine, but neither of us knew specifically where to go with that. If she says I can have an equal amount of money or something, if I don’t buy something with it, that remains marital property. If we open our own accounts, everything remains marital property anyway, and how would we divide the bills? Proportionally by income maybe? There too, there are tons of shared expenses for the kids that are irregular. I don’t think she realizes how expensive this time of year is and how thin our excess is each month after we bought the cabin on a lake she wanted this spring.

I could ask them if they have talked to Mom about some of the questions they bring, but I know they are not comfortable doing that.

I pondered what I would tell someone in my position, and I honestly don’t know. I considered a legal separation today after finishing my 2nd BPD book because I need to figure out what limits make sense for me, but am currently leaning toward establishing smaller boundaries first, as was suggested on this board. I would like to do something related to money, if for no other reason than to help her understand that money is not inexhaustible. She has historically been very good with money, but spending on her affair is driving me crazy.

I don’t feel like we are fully intact now, some days a little closer than others, but I figured after her last trip, she basically checked out. She stays downstairs and is very sad around the house. This isn’t a sustainable situation, but in the short-term, I don’t see it as a complete deal-breaker. If we can tie things back up, that will be better, but that is a big if.

I asked her point blank (via text, because she doesn’t usually respond well to talking in the moment about something like this) today if she was certain she was going to divorce me. She replied “no”. She doesn’t want to be with me, she wants to be with someone else, she implies sometimes she might just leave me if she can’t get this 1200 mile relationship to work, but she always says she hasn’t really figured out how anything would work. One time this is because she doesn’t know where our money is (she does), the next because she doesn’t know where they would live, the next because she would have to share the kids with me, then because she doesn’t want to take them away from me, then because she doesn’t want to move them away from their friends and family, ... .you get the picture.

The only thing she seems certain about is that she just doesn’t love me anymore.

[Meili]

The finances and property stuff is tricky in that things very from location to location. Getting legal counsel for your area is the best advice.

Where I live, nearly everything (just three legal exceptions) is community property. This includes both assets and debts. If you make more money than her, there is probably nothing wrong with opening your own account and paying your half of the bills with your half of your earnings and taking her part of your earnings and putting it toward her half of the debt. Then you give the rest to her to pay. But, again, seek legal counsel for your area to find out what is right there.

Moving her stuff out will likely just cause more problems. Before you can start making things better, you must stop making them worse. There's just no way around that.

What did you mean when you said that you were pushed down the stairs when you tried to leave?

[Jumpin’ Jack]

I am sorry, I must have been unclear. Neither of us were trying to leave. She was on the phone with her lover and wanted me to go away. I just stood by her and wouldn’t let her talk to him in private. She eventually freaked and started hitting and pushing me. Not in a hugely violent way, but it made our youngest cry. I caught myself on the second step down and she said she wished I would have gone down. She asked me the next day if I was proud of acting like that in front of the kids.

[Meili]

Thank you for the clarification. I'm sorry that I misunderstood. Was that the first, or only, time that she got violent?

Projection is a common problem in these situations. pwBPD find it difficult to handle their emotions, so they engage in blame-shifting.

[Jumpin’ Jack]

Thanks for your reply again. It was the first and only time.

[Jumpin’ Jack]

On and off this board a number of people have commented that my wife has it really good. I bend over backwards constantly to try to keep her anger to a minimum, and she does whatever she wants, including the 5 day, 4 night vacation with her lover she is returning from later today. Based on that, I decided to attempt to set a boundary. I made a sign that says

I will tolerate a lot, but I cannot tolerate adultery.

She will come home to find that I have put many more of her things in “her room” including a 2 foot pile of clothes evenly spread on the bed and have transferred a large fraction of the clutter in the house to the basement, including many boxes stacked in front of the tv and blocking the hall to her room, and a couple feet of clothes and boxes in the shower and much s might be the wrong approach, but she was too comfortable doing whatever she wanted.

I found out she told my oldest daughter that when she gets back she will tell her where she went, and my oldest said she is pretty sure she knows where mom went - to Virginia. Why I asked. To see M. she replied. She is wrong, but not far off. He just came to her.

[DearHusband]

Hi Jumping Jack,

I'm also sorry to hear about what you are going through. I can imagine several scenarios that could be playing out right now after she comes back. Most of them would be pretty painful to endure.

In the end, it is up to you to decide what is best for you. However, when it comes to your children, I have a comment. After my parents divorced, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents. Observing them helped me understand what an adult relationship could be. It mattered that, at some point in my early life, I was exposed to a positive relationship even if it wasn't in my own home. It was not a complete substitute for a happy home, but it did help. Can you find a way to give your kids that gift?

Good luck,
DH

[Jumpin’ Jack]

Dear Husband,

Thanks for the comment. Yes and no. They are very close to their grandparents already. My mom just passed away 2 months ago, and my dad lives close and is very engaged in their lives. My in-laws live 2.5 miles away, but they are in a very bad place in life due to a severe stroke my father in law suffered. That said, they love their grandparents a ton and see them a lot.


My wife bought those special dolls for my 2 older girls, and they were all excited, then she texted my daugher and me yesterday at 4:30 in the afternoon saying - turns out I won’t be home until tomorrow now. Nice.

[Meili]

I know that it is very hard, but you'll be better served right now if you focus less on her and what she might or might not be doing, and focus on yourself and your children. You'll never be able to control your wife or her choices, so that is wasted effort.

I understand your desire to "teach her a lesson" and not allow her to be comfortable anymore. I would feel exactly the same way. I certainly wouldn't want to support her lifestyle. But, maintaining your dignity and composure will ultimately be the best thing for you.