Is it a trap? Love bombing and finally “promises” sprinkled with FOG.

[ozmatoz]

Thanks FF, I've seen that on occasion I am doing this already without recognizing that.  I will try to be more consistent.

One thing scary about this is when shes at an 8/9 and I've responded with a 4/5 she replies back twisting my words back to her 8/9 as if she didnt even comprehend the factual words written right in front of her.

In the case of today, I'm looking at what I would call dysregulation in the opposite of rage.

100s of texts non-stop, all night/day.  Even when saying that "yes I hear how important this is to you, can we talk later?"  It keeps going.

The few times I was successful and she said she would leave me alone.  That lasted for 20 minutes and it all started over again.

Thank you so much for your guidance here.

[formflier]

One thing scary about this is when shes at an 8/9 and I've responded with a 4/5 she replies back twisting my words back to her 8/9 as if she didnt even comprehend the factual words written right in front of her.
 

"That's not what I said... ."   pause  "I'm going to take a break from this conversation... .I'll check back with you in 10 minutes"

wash... rinse repeat.

Once they are that mad... .tools (other than your feet) rarely work. 

Try once... perhaps twice, then pull ejection handle.

FF

[Radcliff]

Hi Oz, that love bombing is so confusing.  We want so badly for it to be true.  And it is -- she really, genuinely believes all of that.  Have you heard promises like this before, or is this a new level?  If there were prior promises, how did they end up?  Has she started seeing her therapist again?

What thoughts and feelings are you having now that you've had a little more space?  Or has the love bombing kept you from having much space?

WW

[ozmatoz]

Hi Oz, that love bombing is so confusing.  We want so badly for it to be true.  And it is -- she really, genuinely believes all of that.  Have you heard promises like this before, or is this a new level?  If there were prior promises, how did they end up?  Has she started seeing her therapist again?

There have been promises before on both our parts, and promises broken on both our parts.  So I am cautious, of us both really.  I know that the old me prior to BPD knowledge would just cave and capitulate to the love bombing and assume she's genuine and the hurt is going away.  I can look back and see how it never really solved anything.  I will say that this time she has really owned up to some bad behavior, but I still see blame shifting just below the surface.  It doesn't take long for our "talks" to disintegrate into the blame game again.  This makes me believe that perhaps logically she may "know" what she's doing is wrong but just can't help doing it (clearly a hallmark of BPD).  And no she has not gone back to her T.  She did say that a few years back her and T did discuss how she reacts to things though.

What thoughts and feelings are you having now that you've had a little more space?  Or has the love bombing kept you from having much space?

The "space" hasn't really been space.  Its been relentless texting.  One evening that I was out shopping and met a buddy for a beer I just stopped responding and she went nuts.  40 calls within a half hour, probably close to 100 texts in the same time period.  Called me from the home phone while texting from her cell.  Even used D10's ipad to try and facetime me thinking I would pick that up.  Really bizarre.  She thought I was out with another woman.  My friend (also a mutual friend of hers) was like... damn if you are getting in that much trouble you might as well just go find another women.  I joked that he wasn't helping me but at least I laughed for the first time in awhile.

That aside I've spent a few nights at home that I probably shouldn't have.  The company was nice and frankly we haven't talked to each other nicely in awhile.  I've had to push myself back out because I could feel her trying to swallow me up again.  The physicality is relentless.  She claims that because my love language is touch and that one of the things I brought up was wrong with us 3 years ago was physical intimacy that she's now trying to communicate with me.  While on the surface thats great, but its a bit much and more than I'm ever used to.  I'm not exactly trusting her which caused me to pull away.  She takes that as rejection, which it is, but she takes it as she is worthless and not loved rather than the reality of it is just that I am not in that "place" with her right now.

Now that in her eyes the "space" she admits she can't give me has at least broken the cycle of downright nasty behavior she is demanding that I move back in immediately.  Now says the space helped, but now is hurting because it is causing the kids stress as they need their dad and she is frankly taking the brunt of the housework.  It is nice that she finally can realize that she can't do it on her own and I admit I am not around the girls like I would like.  Holiday season is not helping.  The problem is that she is giving another ultimatum.  No more discussions on our relationship unless I'm back in and let go of all the hurt.  She's saying she did it like a switch... .  well we know that she can.  I can't, but she cannot see it that way.

She has offered to "let it be" at home and just go through day to day motions without deep discussion and save those for therapy.  Yes, T.  The same T that I brought up before and she physically attacked me over for bringing up.  I believe she needs her own T for awhile before we could possibly even attempt a couples session.

One may say that I'm in the driver's seat.  Make the demands for change that I need to see happen.  Here's the rub there... I'm not sure I can believe it.  I'm not sure that even if she changed that I could ever really feel comfortable around her without waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Frankly I'm terrified she'd agree to all my demands and I would be stuck.  Again.  I guess that's why I'm on the conflicting board.  I just cannot seem to find a way to believe change is possible, but I can't walk away either... .  still stuck and its not good for anyone.

[formflier]

Why not enjoy the physicality, perhaps even ask her to step it up another notch?

Why not take her up on the offer to go to T and only talk about things there?

We know she will reverse course... and reverse again... .and again...

3 steps forward, 2 back, sideways... .



Why would you be stuck if she "gave in" to all your demands?  Why even call it a demand?  That sounds iike a conquering Army to me... ."demanding" a surrender... or else.

Step one... .thank her for the therapy offer, ask her when she has the first appointment set up for, because it's important to you.  Very nonchalant. 

If she says no... .call and set up the appointment, and YOU go... .let her know.  As long as you keep your distance, she will likely go, because she wants you back...

Is it manipulative.?.perhaps... .I would said pragmatic.

FF

[ozmatoz]

Well the physicality would be nice, but it comes with its own trap.  We've been down this road before where we enjoy each others company and because we were intimate she believes "its all fixed"  When it clearly was not fixed and some of the heavy talks continued I was then accused of "using her body" and that makes me a terrible POS.  This is terribly hurtful to me because I am not the type to "use" a woman.  Basically, how could you engage with me like that if you didn't feel the exact XYZ enmeshed feelings as me?  I really can't win here so the physical side of my relationship has long since dried up and is the exact reason I can't feel comfortable with her.  Waiting and wondering how its going to be used as a club later doesn't exactly set the mood... .

I do like your suggestion on the T, although... .I did that once before earlier in the year, we went once, then I went the next session and she never showed up again... . 

I think I feel like I would be stuck because by giving in to my "demands" or shall we now call them "requests" would obligate me to stick through another recycle.  I've been through so many I don't know if I have the mental capacity to do it again.  Life is too short to keep up with this garbage.  But I'm married and have kids and there is a certain obligation and expectation to do what it takes... . 

I guess I'm desperate to see signs of reconciliation rather than recycle but have yet to see any.  Its still the same old "you need to step up"  "Take action" "Show effort" rhetoric.  When I push for details on what those mean to her, and what specific steps she would like me to take to help change the dynamics she can't answer and just deflects.  I'm afraid of this circle again.

-Oz

[formflier]

Several things going on here.

I'll try to separate them.

Physical stuff.  It doesn't obligate you to listen to blather and obligations.  This is really on you to establish boundaries.

Only you can "obligate yourself" to do things.  I would take time to think that through.

Stop pushing her for details... .let her explain that to a T in therapy.  You and I both know she has no details, there are no "deals" you can make with her.  The "sign" you are looking for to show reconciliation is attending therapy for the benefit of the relationship, even when she is not "happy" with it.

Hang in there... .

FF

[ozmatoz]

Only you can "obligate yourself" to do things.  I would take time to think that through.

First off, FF, thank you so much for sticking with me through this process.  I think its just as much for me to figure out for myself on what my limits are and how to unwind myself if necessary and be as emotionally prepared as possible.

I think the obligations I feel here are certainly tainted by her FOG, but I do feel a strong obligation internally to do what I need for my kids.  Separating her version of that with my own has been difficult.  By moving out she doesn't really want any help with the kids unless its 100% moved back in fully as a "husband".  Thats sad because the only option that leaves me with is filing for divorce and enforcing a custody order.  This could be handled so much better "for the kids" but I know she can't see it that way.

Thanks again, I hope you are finding peace in your life.
-Oz

[Lucky Jim]

By moving out she doesn't really want any help with the kids unless its 100% moved back in fully as a "husband".  Thats sad because the only option that leaves me with is filing for divorce and enforcing a custody order.

This, too, is an attempt to manipulate you and an application of F-O-G, in my view.

Suggest you stay in the center, above the fray, which you are doing well.

LJ

[formflier]

This could be handled so much better "for the kids" but I know she can't see it that way.
 

Please read Lucky Jim's post.  What does "staying above the fray" and "above the FOG" mean.

Big picture.  You think it can be handled better... .so handle it better.  She will do, what she will do.

She likely won't see it the way you don... .remember... .she is disordered. 

Breath... .big one.

Remember... .she is disordered.  She would love to limit you choices to "what she agrees to" or "what she can see... "

Do you see the FOG in that?  The manipulation? 

Only you can tell us if you have actually "taken the bait" or "if the hook is set".  (fishing analogy).  Don't bite... .make your own reality.

FF

[Radcliff]

Hello Oz,

Hang in there, brother.  You're doing great.  It may not feel like it, but you are holding up well to a superhuman challenge. 

I am with you 100% on the physicality.  I was in the exact same spot in late October.  My wife was pouring on the steam to reel me back in.  She was hungry like I'd never seen her, quite determined, and I had *never* resisted sex like that.  It was amusing and really disturbing to me at the same time.  The gender roles were totally reversed.  Her hands were roving like a teenage boy's.  She wanted sex to get close, and I wanted to be close/safe before sex.  Total turnabout.  One of the things that was unsettling was the implicit threat that if she didn't get sex things would get ugly.  That gave me an upsetting look into how it could be for a woman in a coercive relationship.  OK, back on task -- avoiding sex was as important for me to keep things straight in my head and not recycle as it was to send a consistent message to her.  I think you should stick to your guns.

Except for the sex part, I second everything formflier and Lucky Jim have said.  I have used formflier's "she will do what she will do" as a mantra to get me through a few tough spots in the last couple of weeks!

Hey, here's another book for you -- "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend.  They are over the top on scripture references, but my T recommended it, and it's been quite good.  I think you and I share a need to do some work there, and our wives are world-class boundary busters who've totally enmeshed us.  I think it would be good for you to read right now, which gets me to the texting and phone calls... .

If you quickly develop the ability to set boundaries on texting and phone calls, you will get some space and some immediate relief.  Make this a priority.  It doesn't work if you see the texts and phone calls come in.  Your heart will jump and your space is invaded.  Block her, and set the timer on your phone for when to unblock her.  If she's actively calling/texting, text her that you are going to be away from your phone for a certain amount of time, or something vague like "just after lunch."  And my wife has used all the tricks yours has, and more!  Texting/calling from my daughter's phone, calling from a Google voice number with my mother's area code, etc.  If you need to, go to Airplane Mode for an hour and set your phone timer.  Nobody needs to contact you so urgently they can't wait an hour.  You might also see if there is a schedulable call blocking app that could screen out all the routes your wife uses.

One may say that I'm in the driver's seat.  Make the demands for change that I need to see happen.  Here's the rub there... I'm not sure I can believe it.  I'm not sure that even if she changed that I could ever really feel comfortable around her without waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Frankly I'm terrified she'd agree to all my demands and I would be stuck.  Again.  I guess that's why I'm on the conflicting board.  I just cannot seem to find a way to believe change is possible, but I can't walk away either... .  still stuck and its not good for anyone.

This is exactly where I am.  In the driver's seat, and terrified she'll say "yes" to everything, then we'll recycle.  The trick, as I think formflier and Lucky Jim are saying, is to make her produce results.  I am going to go slow.  No recycle.  I'm getting too old for this, I've invested too much, and everyone else has invested so much to help me, there is no going back.  I'm going to go as slow as I need to to feel safe.  And that's d*mn slow and d*mn safe.  If she gets impatient and decides to call it quits, that's a sad but acceptable result.

My outlook on my own situation changes day by day.  My wife is slowly adding DBT skills, but is very early and imperfect, and she is still pretty much at square one on accountability.  Yesterday was a bad day.  She pushed me into a bad place -- all outbound, needy communication -- and it sent me to the pits.  Today she'd processed the bad behavior yesterday with her T, and was in much better shape.

The key here that makes this different from any of the thousand times we've recycled is that we have very strong boundaries to give me space (literally) and she is adding skills and insight she never had before with DBT.  I was a shameless DBT salesman before, you pushed back that it was unrealistic, and I backed off because I didn't want to be overbearing.  But it's popped into my head again today, because unless your wife gets some new skills, she may have a very hard time delivering what you need.  It is crazy, but my wife *loves* DBT.  She has been beyond miserable with being out of control all these years, and her therapist is validating and tough on her at the same time.

Sorry, this is getting long, but let me give you an example from the last two days.  In our text conversation yesterday she ran over me with angst and emotion so much that I was despondent that evening that she could ever manage to be the partner I needed.  Then she went to her T and showed her T our text conversation.  Today, she came back to me with an apology and said she could see where she went off the rails.  I can count her apologies in 25 years on the fingers of two hands!  I told her that on the particular issue we were talking about, I think she's best to lead, but she needs to be in her Wise Mind to do it.  She said they hadn't gotten to that part yet, they were doing Emotional Regulation.  We talked about how that was a prerequisite for Wise Mind.  A few weeks ago, this woman told me that the problem was 100% mine, and I needed to move out.  We have a long road, and my standards are very high, so we may not make it.  But we might, and for certain we'll be better coparents and she'll be a happier person.

So, I'd say don't give up on DBT.  Consider talking to a local DBT therapist.  Consider reading up on the components of DBT.  It is a curriculum tailor made to our situation!

While drafting this reply, I figured I'd better go back and read up on the site resources on how to get a borderline into therapy.  Obviously, we're not going to talk about BPD!   I like the idea of talking about tools that are helpful.  There's a video at the end by a clinical researcher who figured out how best to approach the challenge of getting someone to get past unawareness of a mental illness and into therapy.  The video is an hour and forty minutes long.  In my experience this evening, it takes two margaritas and a half bag of popcorn to get through it.  He drops a nugget 37 minutes in, and finally gets down to business at about 1:19.  It's worth watching, but you probably also want to read his book, "I Am Not Sick, I Don't Need Help! How to Help Someone with Mental Illness Accept Treatment."  In the video, he says that two things are predictive of whether or not someone will stay in treatment:  1. Awareness that they have a mental illness (usually not going to happen), and 2. A relationship with someone who listens without judgement and thinks they'll benefit from treatment.  He founded the LEAP Institute to train people in these techniques (www.leapinstitute.org).  LEAP stands for Listen, Empathize, Agree, and Partner.  Bottom line, I think this guy is onto something that is straightforward enough for an engineer to follow.  Dude, it took me a court order to get DBT going.  Maybe you can one up me!

Keep us posted, and try to find some nice moments with your girls this Christmas!   

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW, lots to reply to here I'll try to condense.

Boundary buster is very true.  I have been a bit better and holding these, but its funny she is now trying to create boundaries too (a good thing) but she tries to use them as a tool for ultimatums some times.  I do need to read up on these and I appreciate the book suggestions.  I'm trying to hang on to my job so time for reading has been scarce.

Regarding phone calls I unfortunately cannot turn off my phone.  Due to D10's medical issues I need to be available in case of an emergency.  I do know that she explicitly abuses that fact.  Her cell phone, our home phone and her work phone are blocked at my office due to her calling in here to the office so its not like she has any other way to contact me if there really is an issue.  And yes she's tried other numbers in an attempt to reach me when I was not answering.

I am terrified of the recycle.  I moved out to protect myself, and believe it or not protect the children.  I was the focus of rage and intense feelings and there was no other way to remove the fighting from in front of the children.  Yes I could have gone to court like you but as we have discussed the view of the courts out here the likelihood of getting the outcome you did was considered highly improbable.  The downside of going for it and being denied would have added a whole new level of psycho I shudder to imagine.  So this was the next best thing.  And it has worked a bit, she has calmed down some.

In regards to taking is slow and safe, I am trying EVERYTHING I can to keep it that way but I unfortunately think she is going to do something irreversible.   She has DEMANDED I make a decision tonight as to whether or not I'm committed to saving the marriage or divorce.  The problem here is that committing to save the marriage for her means moving back in 100% with no space.  I can't breathe as it is and she still has me running around like crazy.  I am afraid she is getting impatient and very well may end it in spectacular fireworks.

In regards to DBT and therapy in general I did push back a bit when we started talking.  She just wasn't ready.  I couldn't even go see my own T let alone suggest one for her or us.  She physically attacked me the last time I brought up marriage counseling.  Things are different now though.  I believe me moving out really shook her up and made her face some demons from her past.  I'll keep her privacy without details here but she admitted to being abused by her father as a young child and admitted that it still has power and control over her reactions.  She has even brought T back up into her discussions.  I'm thinking that I can bring DBT up saying that I heard her about her abuse and was researching and found that DBT can be excellent type of T for dealing with it.  She knows she needs T for that, frankly I don't care what gets her there as long as she gets there.  Even if we don't work out, like you said we'll be better co-parents for the kids and happier overall.

Thanks for the links, I'll go back and read those.  I'd much prefer she talk to a T about some of the issues and I know that I'm capitulating a bit here by trying to foster a discussion with her tonight.  Unfortunately we've got xmas coming around the corner and I'll take some hits here to keep some peace for the sake of not ruining things for the kids.  Tonight's talk is about: right now, 5 years from now, long term.  It has been so long since we have talked about what we want in our lives that I don't even know who she is or what she wants.  Frankly I don't think she knows about me anymore either.  We've spent the last 3-4 years embroiled in BS.  A lot has changed.  I'm hoping this "state of the union" can give both of us something.  Who knows, maybe I'll hear some lasting real desire from her to change, but also I may hear a completely different view and desire for the future.  I guess that wouldn't be bad as it at least would move this in one direction or another.  Honestly though I don't think much will come of it.  She'll demand I make a decision after and we'll be right back to square one, but at least for me mentally I can start checking off more boxes in the try everything column.  There is not much left.

Thanks WW,  good to know I've got teammates here.

Be well,
-Oz

[Radcliff]

Oz,

If you are like me, right now is like that netherworld between sleep and wake.  You are no longer completely under her spell, but you have not completely escaped it.  Tonight is risky.  Be empathetic but firm.  Do not cave.

I'm thinking you likely don't want to mention DBT tonight.  If you see an amazing opening, maybe talk about skills development so you both can stay emotionally level headed, but only if you think it's a good time.

Be careful about your desire to have a good Christmas for the kids.  Your highest obligation to them is to get the best outcome in the long term.  I know first hand how easy it is to compromise to keep the peace.  If your wife chooses to be a stand up person, she could respect your boundaries and have a fine Christmas for the kids.  Don't let her lay it on you.  This Christmas may need to take a bit of a hit for the kids' long term benefit.

If your wife asks if you want marriage or divorce, say you want the marriage.  But do not fall into the trap of letting *her* define commitment.  You want the marriage if it can work for both of you and there is mutual love and respect, yada yada. Make a clear statement and then don't go any further.  Repeat if necessary.

Hold firm on the boundaries.  You need space to heal.  If she says you need to be together to heal, say you need space to heal first to be a good partner.  It is not a negotiation.  If she makes threats, hold the line.  She will do what she will do.  Stay calm and listen with empathy.

Stay strong and hold the line tonight.  You can do it.

WW   

[formflier]

  I am afraid she is getting impatient and very well may end it in spectacular fireworks.

Big picture... .this is your "fear" to deal with.  If you deal with it, your chances in the relationship go up  "exponentially".

If you remain afraid, she has you... .

Don't take credit for her good stuff... .or her bad.  If she ends things in a spectacular fashion... .she will do so... .it will have very little, perhaps nothing do to with what you actually have done... .

   

FF

[Lucky Jim]

She has DEMANDED I make a decision tonight as to whether or not I'm committed to saving the marriage or divorce.  The problem here is that committing to save the marriage for her means moving back in 100% with no space.  I can't breathe as it is and she still has me running around like crazy.

Hey Oz, You realize that she is attempting to manipulate you through F-O-G, right?  If a pwBPD doesn't get what they want, they usually up the ante, in order to apply more pressure.  Your task is to disregard this artificial deadline.  You don't really have to decide tonight, do you?  Try to focus on what is right for you, rather than responding to arm-twisting.

LJ

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW, FF, LJ.

The texting has been brutal today and tonight will be tough.  She's pressured me for a decision for the last 4 hours and I haven't caved yet.

This will push her buttons that "I never respected or listened to her and I'm not doing it now"... .but I can tell you with 100% certainty that if I can't get the space to heal, this marriage will end.  I just can't do it under these pressures any more.

I literally just used your line about mutual love and respect and she just spun it back that she needs me here in order to be able to do that, she is not investing in and participating in discussions about working on our marriage until I have made a decision.  I read that as until I have agreed to "her" decision.

I fear being so exhausted that I'll crash there... .cant let myself do it... .Hold the line... .hold the line.  You're right I don't have to decide tonight, she can do whatever she decides to do.

I can't thank you all enough, you have been my strength when I have very little.
-Oz

[formflier]

Boundaries will help here.

Turn phone off or don't look at her text messages for a few hours.

There seems to be some turmoil around where you sleep.  Leave the house early tonight.  Let her/them know you are not feeling well (which is true) and you need sleep.  Go wherever you are most comfortable.  Turn off phone and get extra sleep.

Do this for 3 days in a row. 

More sleep and limited reading/participation in her texts... .and the world will look like a different place to you.  Trust me... it will work. 

FF

[ozmatoz]

I failed miserably.   I need a good whack on the head.

Last night was D10's Christmas concert so my defenses were already down and it was almost 9 by the time we got the kids back to the house and in bed.

We sat and talked for a bit and I did a good job holding my line, but so did she.  The statement was move back in by tomorrow (today) night or she is done.  I continued to hold the line until she decided to go to bed.  I made the mistake of continuing the conversation upstairs.

She did start to calm down, mentioned that she had seen her T again (not sure I believe it) and asked me to move back under the condition of putting all the heavy stuff aside for a bit.  Said that she just wants to get through the day and let connection happen if/when it does and to stop trying to force it.  She said she knows that I would be hot/cold towards her sometimes and that she was willing to tolerate that as we work towards finding ways to heal.  She also said that she wants to table any of these "heavy" discussions for in front of a marriage counselor.  While there was still a fair amount of blame shifting and edginess there was a clarity and sincerity from her that I haven't seen in years.

I was tired, cold and frankly feeling pretty lonely.  I knew uBPDw was tired of having to take care of D10 in the middle of the night so I caved and crawled into bed.  I slept fairly well but leaving for work I had to stop and shower/change at my parents place which put me late to work.

I am "supposed" to come home tonight but I have a million errands to run after work for xmas shopping and a mess to clean up at my parents place.  I broke the news that because of everything I would have to do I would not be coming home.  Now were back in the angry talks and she's told me not to come back until xmas eve... .  so I guess we're back on the roller coaster.

I know WW that this xmas may have to take a hit (it already has), but man I just can't put the grenade on it. 

At this point I may/may not go back tomorrow night but I'm only packing to get through xmas.  If for some reason there is a Christmas miracle I can always go get the rest of my stuff.  If things still stink at home at least I have clothes and items elsewhere, although I feel like if I go again... .that will be it.

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Any mistake you've made, I've probably made twice as often as you, and for longer!  A couple of months ago, I'd load up on advice from the board, head home, and it never went as planned.  As badly as I felt I was doing, I was amazed the guys on the board stuck with me.  This is messy business.  Don't make yourself feel like if you play something imperfectly, the game is lost.  If you make a mistake, it's not the end of the world, it just may create more work for you later.

Likewise, this game will not be won or lost in a night, no matter what she says.  She cannot deliver success based on promises in an evening.  And while your mileage may vary, I believe she is exceedingly unlikely to end it quickly based on you missing an ultimatum, no matter how convincing she is.  And she is likely brilliant at this and getting better.  You need to face that fear and conquer it, as Lucky Jim and formflier have said.

A lasting, wise decision is only going to be made with you feeling strong, and you need space for that.  Keep your eye on the target point even if you get blown off course.  Just keep re-aiming at the target and pushing forward and you will get there.

WW

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW.  Yes as others have said I really need to get over the Fears of her going nuclear or trying to get me fired.  Obligation has been tough too.  I was raised to take care of my sh**t and not be selfish.  This is very new territory for me.
As far as Guilt goes, I'm doing much better there.  I sometimes laugh at the guilt trips she tries to lay down.  The fact that D16 called her out on one recently seemed to provide me some much needed validation from within the family.  Not that I want the kids involved but D16 is really sharp and mature, I could tell she was asserting herself against her mom.  If I were to say any guilt that I suffer now its my own.  My own guilt about losing opportunities and hurting other people that wanted or were relying on me because I was too busy enmeshed in my uBPDw crap. 

I am trying to use this "new" guilt as fuel.  I'm tired of feeling bad that I can't interact normally with the outside world.  I find that when I can be myself what I get in return is wonderful.

I have a weekend bag and a couple of work outfits packed in the car.  I'm going home tonight to spend some time with the family through Christmas.  I am going to do my best to let my guard down and just see how she does.  I know she's expecting me to have repacked my entire belongings and have them stuffed in my car.  When she sees that I haven't, I know that will set off some storms and she has previously "offered" to come and pack me back up and bring my stuff back for me.  Not bringing everything back is a boundary that I have been able to have stick since the first blow-out in June.  I need to feel safe that I have a place to escape too, that there is a place I can have the kids at if necessary.  We are a lot closer to divorce than we are to reconciling and I have no interest in living in my car.

My parents place is a lifeline and I will not allow her to take that away.

Hoping for some peace, and maybe just maybe a change of hearts for a Christmas miracle.

Be well everyone.  Much love.   
-Oz

[kentavr3]

If woman does love bombing, most of the time she changes roles of a man who chasing woman to woman who chasing man. In this same moment the defending guard of a man goes down and man misses a lot of red flags. What is the answer? Do not be involved into love bombing. If you see intensive person, that means you'll have drama. Just stop for a moment and think.

[Radcliff]

Oz, you are dialed in perfectly.  You've got this!  Have a good Christmas.   

WW   

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Oz, I'm with Wentworth: You've got this!  If you stay in the center and decline to participate in the drama, and hold the line on F-O-G like you're doing, you'll come through it fine.

Have a Merry Christmas,
LJ

[ozmatoz]

Thanks WW, LJ!.  While I've only been on the boards for a few months, this has been a 3 year process for me.  It seems to be heading towards some sort of conclusion.  Frankly I feel like I can deal with it either way but it HAS to move.  Being stuck is killing me.
Going to enjoy playing some games and flying drones with my kids this weekend.  uBPDw can sulk in the corner, I'm getting to the point where IDGAF .

Cheers!
-Oz

[Radcliff]

Have fun with the girls and the drones!

WW

[ozmatoz]

Well here is the update... .it was good, then bad, then good, now bad.  Surprised?  Me neither.   I'll try to keep this short (yeah right... ).  But I may need help figuring out my part in these problems.

Friday before Christmas ran a few errands after work and we eventually went over to a friends house to hang out and watch the snow fall with a few other couples and let the kids play.  It was nice, I still felt a bit awkward, that the social situation was a bit forced.  I love our friends, but it felt to me the way she was acting and talking and projecting future times that she was completely ignoring anything that was going on.  She keeps telling me that she wants to live in the present... ok thats fine.  We can still have a great time, but I feel like she was putting on a show.  I felt like she was putting me on the spot to make it out like everything was great and if I wavered or disagreed I would be seen as the bad guy.  I couldn't tell if this was just another way of controlling me, or am I being overly sensitive here to her trying to have a positive outlook.  I feel like past behavior has me jaded rather than open and optimistic...   Thoughts?

Saturday was good, I did all the last minute running around in the terrible weather (always been my job, and I don't mind) she was busy cleaning and baking goods.  We communicated throughout the day and it felt rather "normal".  It was a bit chaotic of a day but I recall towards the end of the day getting together and enjoying some time as a family.

Sunday morning was good, last minute prep, decorating cookies, putting presents under the tree.  I could still feel some under currents of dismay but as I said previously I was going to ignore them.  My parents came over, we had fun, ate tons of food, drank far too much wine and it felt like home.  My parents spent the night (as they have for years) and again it all felt "ok"

Xmas day we wake up its snowing like crazy, the kids are opening presents,  uBPDw and I each got each other a very thoughtful gift that took some serious effort on both parts.  Then she "one upped" me.  She got me some stereo equipment that while cool and awesome, I really didnt need, couldn't really use with the setup we had, and frankly we had already talked about not going overboard with each other.  Now I'm stuck in the position of looking ungrateful.  I'm not sure if its me that I feel bad that I didnt have extra for her or I'm mad that she spent an extra $1,500 when we already dropped over $2k on the rest of the family.  (side note here, she had bad xmas experience as a kid so every year its a fight over spending WAY too much, I've long since given up and do my best to budget it in).  Just like in the relationship I feel stuck.  She's again put me in a position to accept something or look like a jerk.  I think she at some point sensed my discomfort and didnt push it, which was great.  Then the trouble starts.  The plow guy she hired came by and just did a quick hit because my parents car was in the driveway.  I had previously asked her not to hire a plow because the shape of our driveway makes it impossible to do correctly (I used to plow, I know). Now because of the extra car its a mess.  It will take me twice as long to clean up the plows mess than if I had just zipped out there on my own with the snow blower.  This isnt something new.  I have told her for 17 years not to hire a plow.  I will admit I got overly grumpy.  The pain point she pushed earlier by hiring a plow was now hitting me square in the face an hour before dinner on xmas.  I stormed out and said rather hastily that if she had listened to me I wouldnt have to be dealing with this now.  Of course the sarcastic remarks and passive aggressive behavior came out in full force.  Later in the night she was still mad even after I apologized for having a short temper.  She asked me to leave the bedroom which I refused because I wasnt going down that road again... .So she left and slept in D10's bed.

Fast forward to today, I'm at work receiving non stop texts telling me that I made my choice not to move back in permanently so therefore its no longer my home again... .  here we go back on the wagon again.  I told her I was keeping some items at my parents house because the break helped us before, we made need it again.  I also reminded her that she on several occasions threw my clothes around the house, out the window, ripped up old notes and broke special items therefore I was keeping some of that stuff out of the house until she could comfortably tell me that she would no longer engage in that behavior.  I don't know if that was the wrong thing to do. Part of me feels like by having stuff elsewhere its feeding into her abandonment issues, but for me, I'm just sick and tired of hauling it back and forth waiting for her to exploded and trash it all again.  I don't think she realizes how that affected me. 

I guess I've been down the rabbit hole so long I don't know what is appropriate, where the self love/selfish line is, and when I'm actually the one being a stubborn ass.  The self doubt and confusion is really getting to me.  I feel like this really is it, if I don't move back fully its over, if I move back and there is too many open wounds its over... .just a wonderful way to live.

[DaddyBear77]

I am locking this thread because it has reached its length limit. The post originator is welcomed to open a continuation thread on this topic.  Have a great day.