Hoping for feedback about devalue

[Nwish]

Hi - this is my first post on the forum but I have been reading it for months and thankful for it. I was left by my bf of two years. We are both in our 40’s and going through divorces to be together. I realize there are issues with me and I’m very surprised by all of my behavior, but I still need feedback. He came on very strong and portrayed me as the first person he’s truly loved. There were red flags, of course, but I always felt I was handling them fine and he consistently wanted me, didn’t break up once... We really had a lot of bonding and chemistry (something I didn’t have with my very stable and reliable husband). We have kids the same age and I could tell my BPD ex had low self esteem when it came to my husband and son... .he just didn’t feel adequate, but I was very appreciative of him and treated him with compassion, respect and appreciation. He’s been diagnosed over the years with a lot but I’m not sure BPD was ever one of them, however I’m certain he has a lot of traits and his family history is that of not being validated.

He was never angry and did not yell at me in person, but over text he would have episodes of unrealistic accusations and fear and would apologize for them the next day. He really wanted me to be with him although he said he didn’t expect me to get divorced for him (just words which never matched actions - contradictions). I think he felt very competitive with me and my lifestyle but I could tell I was special to him.

As we got closer to being divorced and living together he started withdrawing, but still texted me nice things, song lyrics, made me food and tried to buy me things. I had moved into an apt but didn’t feel that he helped me emotionally as much as I helped him. We didn’t enjoy a lot of dating freedom as we were trying not to confuse the kids and going through divorces, but he did want me to live with him, take care of me, make his house ours, etc.

I had gone on vacation and came back to find out he had been talking to a girl (stranger he never met in person) on the phone and he said it was a sounding board for him. He promised he was done and we spent Easter with his family. His family said they had never seen him as calm as when he was with me. When he started to withdraw over he summer I asked if he needed a break and he got visibly upset. I was about to go away for another 3 weeks and he argued with me that he feels like he is responsible for my anxiety and he’s the same person he’s always been. He followed the next week with saying how he didn’t want to lose me and he hung out with me and his kids one day and said he can’t wait for it to be our family. 4 days later he called saying he can’t  be in a relationship (that’s all he ever wanted) doesn’t know who he is and needs to get his ___ together, stop drinking. When I went over to get my things he cried and cried and begged me to stay in contact. He sent a text saying we can’t go on with him being rude and distant and how this is probably the biggest mistake of his life. Then he drove straight over to a girls house and soon after was in a full relationship with her. He was miserable, tried to commit suicide and called me crying every few weeks. They finally broke up and we talked like we might get back together. I felt like he was trying to give me all different reasons for why he left, but they didn’t make sense. The entire time always telling me how much he loved and cared for me.

HE and the girl finally broke up and I went over one night and stayed with him, and now it’s been a month and I haven’t heard from him. When he was with her he simply said he was drowning his sorrows and simply could not be alone.

My question is - when we finally got to the point where we could have everything he wanted, he bowed out and I feel like this new relationship he was in got to do all the things we couldn’t (have the kids sleep over and such) he was very immature about it and didn’t think of his kids being confused at all. He admitted that. He’s never painted me black that I can see. He continues to be nice and will not ask for his items back, still keeps things on our calendar. I know he’s holding on but all the stories here show exes who were blocked and raged at. Does this mean he didn’t really care for me and let me go out of actually not loving me? All signs do not show this and his family says he’s never said a bad word about me and told them I was “special”.

I still haven’t really had a conversation with him when he is sober! The one time after the breakup he was sober and talked, he was saying how our connection was better than anyone he ever had  and maybe we’d be back together but don’t hold my breath, wanted sex  and said how much he missed me. He didn’t really seem to like this girl at all and would ask me if he could bring her to our soccer games (why ask me)?

So why hasn’t he painted me black, and why did he finally stop communicating with me after his new relationship broke up? He doesn’t like to be alone. He will not ignore me if I text but I just haven’t. He is so insecure and I feel for him but he has to take some responsibility if he wants something. Why suddenly stop talking to me now that he’s alone? The last night I spent there he acted like he was trying to give me closure, but it was all over the place and still saying how much he loved me. Then nothing for a month. Thank you for any support!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[once removed]

hi Nwish and

i moved your thread here because it sounds like youre uncertain but open to rekindling the relationship, do i have that right? if not, just let us know. if so, now would be a good time to get very well acquainted with the lessons and tools directly to the right of the board.

have the two of you completed divorce? are the two of you living nearby each other?

[Nwish]

Yes - moving it is great - thank you. I am open to rekindle bc I changed my life for this person and we have been through a lot. We live in the same town and share a few friends, but he has since withdrawn from a lot (he quit coaching his son’s team suddenly due to personal problems, just left the kids hanging). He was only with the other girl for 3-4 months and they broke up every 3 days he says. He misses that she was younger, but doesn’t miss her as a person. It’s all so crazy. He has asked me several times if what he did made me bitter. He also apologized for it but seems like he knows he just can’t be with me. Said he was so convinced that’s what he wanted. While with the other girl he would text and tell me that “we were it” and he will always love me. I’m not a bitter person but I am deeply, deeply hurt and every time I have the chance to talk with him o don’t tell him the things that are on my mind. It bothers me.

He has completed divorce - a few days after our breakup. I am close.

[once removed]

what led you to discovering BPD? was it before or after things went south?

[Nwish]

It was after. I read a lot about depression, ADHD and Bipolar Disorder during the relationship. He was taking meds for all three. I knew he was depressed and had low self esteem. His moods shifted a lot and I did feel like I was walking on eggshells not wanting to say something that would cause our day to go sour. It was cyclic. It was after he left that I was so confused and found BPD. I knew about his past and his mom would always tell me to “stay strong”, even though she was never aware of anything sour between us.

He definitely has relationship attachment issues and told me he needed a lot of reassurance, love, and affection and attention (which I though I gave him). He also told me he needs control, not of me, but of his environment. He was impulsive and changed like the wind (not about me until the end). He admittedly couldn’t handle criticism or too much going on at once. He would tell me when his “confidence was low”,  when he needed space and such, but it would be at strange times, like when we made plans.

When he left he said his life will never be the same bc he wanted to spend it with me, chose me, and I was the steady one until he noticed my worry. He found out I was worried about women at work. I’m not typically jealous (he was very jealous - to an irrational point), but I started to get nervous after he was withdrawing emotionally.

[once removed]

thats a good working knowledge. as you learn more, it will help iron out more of the confusion. there is a certain inherent instability with BPD traits, and we tend to get confused trying to anticipate, predict, etc.

and do take caution in your learning. a lot of literature on the internet is rife with urban legends, and tends to lump individuals with BPD traits together as a group of people that all behave in the same ways, which it sounds like some of your confusion may be coming from.

it sounds like theres major crisis in his life. it would not surprise me if a great deal of his own confusion and crisis is coming from the ending of his marriage. what do you think?

He found out I was worried about women at work. I’m not typically jealous (he was very jealous - to an irrational point), but I started to get nervous after he was withdrawing emotionally.

can you elaborate on this? what happened there?

[Nwish]

While on that spring vacation and finding out about the girl he was talking to as a sounding board, I just didn’t get over it and brought it up trying to tell him that it was bothersome to me. At one point I said that I almost left him bc I thought he chose someone else (even though I couldn’t believe that after how much he wanted me for so long). I also meant that I thought he was leaving - I wouldn’t have left. I’m very curious and was looking things up on my phone (I almost thought if I could catch him doing something wrong I could make a decision about my life. I was having a hard time accepting the change from my home and security to his home and lack of security, although I loved him and wouldn’t actually give him up). My therapist thought I was growing and moving forward.

Well, he had an old phone of mine for his kids to play an app with and one day I logged into my google drive and he was able to see all the things I was searching for on Google. He said I would drive myself crazy. He also saw some texts and stuff to male friends of mine (family friends he knew about). Inoccent texts but he wanted me to only care about him. He once got upset bc I listed another male coach first in the subject line of an email. I think he tried really hard to contain his emotions but it built up. He also didn’t like that he would look at my son and see my husband and that he would always have that last name - it was very juvenile.

[Nwish]

Yes - I believe the ending of his marriage played a huge role. They fought often and the relationship wasn’t the greatest but I’m sure it was tough for him even though he chose that. Life was easier with her as the mother of his kids. It makes me sad bc I asked him not to get divorced for my sake but for his own relationship demise. He didn’t have much good to say about her so I didn’t see him being terribly upset about it. I know he doesn’t blame or resent me but it hurts my self esteem knowing that he maybe wishes he never chose me. I wonder if he claims to love me so much still and is nice out of guilt. But I really do feel like he must have felt something genuine for me. They won’t get back together though. She is moving on and they still argue.

Could the marriage ending have affected him even if he doesn’t wish to be with her anymore? She did terrible things to him during the divorce process

[once removed]

with BPD, there is typically an inherent lack of trust in others, even more so with loved ones. trust can be built over the long haul like in any relationship, but it will often be second guessed, even if briefly.

While on that spring vacation and finding out about the girl he was talking to as a sounding board, I just didn’t get over it and brought it up trying to tell him that it was bothersome to me.

do you trust him?

[once removed]

Could the marriage ending have affected him even if he doesn’t wish to be with her anymore.

an important rule is to trust actions over words. as you say, he is impulsive, and he can flip on a dime. its really important to take what he says to you about others, and his circumstances, with a grain of salt.

the ending of a marriage will affect everyone to greater or lesser degrees. it becomes a huge part of our identity. if you take someone with an inherently shaky sense of identity, it would be huge - they wouldnt necessarily know who they are, who to be, what to do with themselves. i think it probably speaks to a lot of what you have seen, and confusion you have faced.

[Nwish]

Sorry - I modified my post right before you asked if I trusted him so I’m not sure it showed up in time. It’s above that.

I did trust him but stopped after the talking to that girl. He Does share a lot of information about what he is doing that would make him seem untrustworthy even though he swares he has always told me the truth (I think his dishonesty come from omission). He still had his location services on when he went to the new relationship... .said he didn’t want to stop sharing his life with me.

So no it’s hard to trust him now because I’m so confused. I think knowing about BPD and his attachment helps me to justify his behavior, but it would take a lot to regain trust. Problem is I don’t have a say in it right now. I want to reach out and he’s always been happier when I’m communicatimg, but o feel like it’s on him to reach out as I’m not the one who left.

[Nwish]

Thank you for all the input. Why do you think I was never devalued or painted black?

[Meili]

If you haven't been asked to not contact him, why not do it? I understand the position of wanting him to do it, but he may be dealing with so much emotional fall-out and fear that he cannot bring himself to do it. Do you feel that it will make you appear weak or something along those lines?

Also, it's far easier to repair the damage when there is communication.

As for the splitting black; none of us can truly know what goes through the mind of another, but it's easy to theorize that it's a projection onto you so that he does not have to deal with his own emotions.

[Nwish]

Thank you, Melli - yes I do feel like I’m weak if I reach out. Why try for something with someone who clearly doesn’t choose me right now? I know I can’t rely on what works with a rational person.

As an update, he called this week and sent a text about a conversation he had with his sister and how I’m good for him. I think he is still in and out with that girl but when I ask him about her, he says she breaks up with him every 4 days, he doesn’t love her and is only with her because she is 8 years younger. It’s really strange. The contradictions- it’s just so hard to tell what he really wants, thinks and feels.

[Meili]

When I was going through this with my x, I found it best to just ignore that she was with the new guy. I just went ahead with my life. As long as she wanted to be with him, she was free to do so. She's an adult after all. But, she couldn't have both. She tried for a while. But, in the end, he was gone.

While she was making that choice however, I remained friendly with her. She tried, very hard I might add, to have the benefits of me while she was dating him. The good people here helped me see how bad of a plan that was.

By focusing on myself, making myself emotionally stronger, and thus more attractive, I was able to regain her attention from him. Do you think that something like that might work for you?

[Nwish]

Yes! I do think that is something that will work but I just don’t know how to do it. I’ve been getting stronger just being on my own but I don’t know how to attract his attention again.

I’m confident that he loves me, thinks I’m good for him, and is attracted to me. I am also friendly with him, but I feel like he might view me as a crutch, or safety net. This is why I try not to contact him often. I also think that his confidence is so low that he will stay with the girl as long no as she keeps breaking up with him. He is chasing her to feel worthy of love and “winning” someone “young”, but it can go on forever. This is how he explained what he felt for his wife... .chasing her to feel worthy of love.

I do talk with his sister. She tells me he has always said nice things about me and that I’m “special”. It just doesn’t do any good if he chooses someone else.

This has been helpful - thank you for chatting with me! Do you know in the end how you were able to regain her attention?

[Meili]

I stopped chasing, I became interesting, other women became interested in me and became a prize for her to win. Sound familiar?

This also may sound familiar: When I was chasing her, she was certain that she could do anything and I would still be there waiting for her. I was her safety net and doormat.

Doormats are unattractive though, and no one respects a doormat. So, to get her to start respecting me again, I had to stop being a doormat.

She feared losing me; her safety net. I was no longer at her beck and call. I was no longer needy and clingy, so she couldn't get away with as much.

I stopped accepting her bad behavior and complying with her demands.

In short, I change the entire dynamic of our relationship and took control back over my own life.

[Nwish]

Hmm - this does all sound very familiar. How did you get it from happening over and over? He has such low self esteem.

[Nwish]

Oh - and do you mind if I ask how much time elapsed from breakup until you were back together?

[40days_in_desert]

I agree with Meili on the being a doormat being unattractive. I think that is one of the qualities that my ex liked most about me. I was a confident person most of my life but that started to change toward the end of our marriage. I was still struggling to find that confidence for a year to a year and a half after separating. After I was able to detach more, didn't come running when she needed something and found my mojo, she started to try and reconnect.

Nwish, like you, my ex is with someone else and I just couldn't see how she could justify wanting me while not leaving him. When she tries to talk about us getting back together (4 times this year), I tell her that I won't even discuss it as long as she is with another man. I'm not interested in getting back together though. Nothing is impossible but my desire to re-enter a relationship with her is pretty close to zero.

[Meili]

How did you get it from happening over and over? He has such low self esteem.

I looked at my role in everything and changed my behaviors. We have to stop taking part in the drama. If we don't, we feed it. We make everything worse rather than better.

I felt that I could save her from herself. It's actually a very common thing around here. Most of us are "fixers." We want to help the person develop a healthy self-esteem, and we think that if we just give a little more of ourselves, and show them just a little more just how much we love them, that they will finally get it and everything will magically be better.

That's not what happens though. We give and give and give until we are enmeshed. We lose ourselves. Our self-esteem gets destroyed in the process because no matter how hard we try, we cannot "fix" their problems. It is far more productive to stop trying sooner than later.

It took me many months get these concepts through my head, but after I stopped, things started to get better for me almost instantly. Once that started to happen, within 60 days she was open to talking to me again and the idea of reconciliation.

It is by no means easy. But is possible to turn these things around. I know that it's counter-intuitive, but your focus really must be on yourself and changing your behaviors. You cannot change the other person, but you can lead by example.

[Nwish]

Thank you both so much for your feedback. I really am working on me and I’m not chasing. I do still go over when he calls but usually under the impressIon that he’s out of the relationship and sober. Then I get there and discover that I never really know what’s going on. I’m going to stop that. I’ve become more assertive at least.

I talked to his sister tonight and she agrees that he has jumped into the same unhealthy dynamic as his previous relationships. Constant arguing and chasing, but no real love. I just don’t understand why he would pursue another relationship when we were finally where we wanted to be and went through so much to get there. Days before the breakup he was talking about blending families and sending me song lyrics. It’s just baffling.

Now, I think it’s the rejection that is hard to deal with. Like he chose this pretty, young person who has so much baggage. This is what he likes? He says no but keeps going!

[Meili]

One of the things about pwBPD is that they have intense fears of abandonment and enmeshment. When they start to feel very close and intimate with someone, they get scared. They feel like it is a dangerous position for them to be in because the non could abandon them at any moment. If we try to see it through their eyes, devoid of any of the facts as we know them, it is far easier to see and understand. This level of empathy is exactly what is needed.

For us, it is easy to see the love that we give, our commitment to the relationship, and the dedication that we have to our partners. For them, the facts are clouded by their intense emotions and thus quite different.

[Nwish]

Yes - I feel like he loves me and is connected to me and that was/is uncomfortable, but he was happy. This dynamic with his new relationship is comfortable (push, pull, no love, never bonding), but he’s very unhappy.

Is there anything I can do? He kind of knows but I’m not sure he knows enough to break it. There’s nothing I can say or do, is there? Other than move on... .
He doesn’t know why he’s torn.

[Meili]

People gravitate toward what is familiar and comfortable. It sounds like that is what he is doing.

You should only move on when you are ready to move on. I know how trite it is when I tell someone this, but it very true, as long as you have hope, there is hope.

What can you do? You can make yourself the more attractive option. You can use the time while he figures things out for himself for your benefit. I learned to think of all of this as a gift from my x. She gave me room to breath and time to learn. She was a catalyst for my growth. When you stop fighting the situation, change your perspective, and accept things for what they are everything changes. What is currently a negative can become a positive.

[Nwish]

Thank you, Melli!
It’s nice to hear someone tell me to not give up hope. Others do not understand why I would even want hope at this point, but I try to go day by day.

[Nwish]

Oh - and so I guess you understand how hard it is to resist going over there when he calls. There is just something in me that has so much to say and if I decline going over it feels like a missed opportunity to say things that are on my mind.

[MissGuided]

He definitely has relationship attachment issues and told me he needed a lot of reassurance, love, and affection and attention (which I though I gave him). He also told me he needs control, not of me, but of his environment. He was impulsive and changed like the wind (not about me until the end). He admittedly couldn’t handle criticism or too much going on at once. He would tell me when his “confidence was low”,  when he needed space and such, but it would be at strange times, like when we made plans.

This sounds so familiar. It was the same way like with my ex. She was very expressive about it and many times that we made plans to spend the night,  she would sabotage it to them blame me for it. I think is a trait. Welcome to the boards. Hope you find some answers here.

[Nwish]

Thank you, Missguided!

Melli, how did you keep from comparing yourself to the new guy she was with?

[Meili]

Yes, I know how hard it is to resist the urge to go running when called. Early on, I longed just to hear from her. I would tolerate hours of being berated just so that I could listen to her voice. It was a very unhealthy time for me.

I'll admit that I compared myself to him at first. I distinctly remember thinking that he was better than me because he could provide her with a level of excitement that I couldn't. This was very out of character for me. I learned long ago that we cannot compare one person to another. We are all different, unique, and special in our own ways. My normal position was that it wasn't that another was better for me, but rather better than me for someone. All those logical thoughts went out the window.

I got into counseling. My therapist had me post affirmations on my bathroom mirror so that I had to look at them each morning. I thought it was a silly idea. What good could that possibly do? A lot of good.

We start to devalue ourselves and have a low self-esteem because someone (or people) tell us over and over again that we should think that way. Soon we start to believe it. The affirmations have the same effect. We reaffirm ourselves every day to counter the negative things that we've been told.

It wasn't really beneficial at first, but somewhere along the way, it occurred to me that I was giving more weight to her opinion than I was to my own. I had to ask myself why what she said was more important than what I believed?