does your BPD spouse call YOU verbally abusive? And how to handle

[Husband321]

This is perhaps the most frustrating part of my relationship to deal with.

BPDW can disappear.  Rage.  Lie. Turn people against you. Change plans. Make her own plans. Throw away money. Completely stop all household duties. Make threats. Threaten divorce.

And the reason? Because I was "verbally abusive"  Or my "tone". Or I made. A"certain face".  Which basically means I would call her out on her behavior, show her the big picture, explain my feelings, etc. 

And yes. At times I have raised my voice. So then all of the above missteps are justified in her mind for all the "verbal abuse?"

It's so hard to hear this.  When trying hard, keeping the family together, but then also have to speak perfectly in ways never to offend her, or she feels she has the right to act in any way imaginable.

Do they really feel you are verbally abusive? Or is it just shifting blame?

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[teapay]

Been through all that kind of stuff too.  In my W case, it's both believing it and blame shifting.  She needs excuse for herself.  Also, it is an attempt to knock you of balance, get you to doubt yourself, weaken you.  More important is that you don't believe it, stay in reality and feel good about yourself.

[Husband321]

Been through all that kind of stuff too.  In my W case, it's both believing it and blame shifting.  She needs excuse for herself.  Also, it is an attempt to knock you of balance, get you to doubt yourself, weaken you.  More important is that you don't believe it, stay in reality and feel good about yourself.

Yes.  It is her yelling.  Screaming. Making faces. Going off. Pushing me as far as possible ... .

Then when I am pushed to the breaking point, and shout back it is "see. You are always mad.  See you are verbally abusive.  I am leaving "

Then the next day she texts "I know I am not stable.  But you hurt me with your words".

[teapay]

Even when I and my W have used the same words to make a point, she had said there is still something about the way a say it.  She says she can't describe it.  It's just there.  The problem is really me saying something at all.  At some level it is invalidating to her.

I also recommend be who you are and not fall for it.

And yes, the real problem is she is not stabe and she does know it.  She can't handle that emotionally and goes off.

[Husband321]

Exactly. 

It is always my "tone" or expression on my face.  So all of our holiday plans are over because of things like this.  Blamed on my "tone". 

[teapay]

I know how frustrating and infuriating it can be.  I know now it's BS and that it's not me. Leave the S on her.

[waverider]

With my BPD wife I find that if she has a perceived need denied, or perceives it may be denied then she takes it very personally and magnifies it to the point she feels abandoned or abused. If she feels this way she will state it as a fact.  Then she fabricates evidence to prove this, especially if she is trying to trigger the rescuer in someone else.

It is infuriating, you react and that just validates her point of view.

[Husband321]

Yes.  My wife moved out into her moms.

She is saying "I killed her inside" yet not even telling me what was said.

So basically all my fault.

[Enabler]

My T described these scenarios quite nicely. My wife is building a case to match her feeling. She building evidence, whether that is filing police reports or provoking me to "a" reaction and just the mere murmur of a reaction or retort is instantly twisted to fit the criteria of evidence. It really has got to the Toxic atage where I'm afraid to say anything to my wife since anything and everything is contorted to be evidence of abuse. ":)o you mind if I go out?"... .perplexed look from me as I know she's already arranged to go out and has said so, plus I've never prevented her from going out EVER even when she was seeing OM... ."if you could just help me tidy up some of this mess that would be great"... .volcano erupted!

[Husband321]

My T described these scenarios quite nicely. My wife is building a case to match her feeling. She building evidence, whether that is filing police reports or provoking me to "a" reaction and just the mere murmur of a reaction or retort is instantly twisted to fit the criteria of evidence. It really has got to the Toxic atage where I'm afraid to say anything to my wife since anything and everything is contorted to be evidence of abuse. ":)o you mind if I go out?"... .perplexed look from me as I know she's already arranged to go out and has said so, plus I've never prevented her from going out EVER even when she was seeing OM... ."if you could just help me tidy up some of this mess that would be great"... .volcano erupted!

Yes.  Example.

We were together Thursday night.  Everything getting back on track.

She is texting someone and says "just so you know I am telling you my plans.  I am going out with my gf tomorrow night for drinks"

So I was also perplexed. In two years neither of us ever went out on a Friday night alone to a bar.

This led to me asking a few questions.  She gets extremely irritated and screenshots the texts to me saying "ok I am sending you the screen shot since you don't believe me. Then I am leaving and never talking to you again"

Turns out she didn't even end up going. But says I made her depressed with my questions and she can't take it.

I imagine if I told her I was going out to bars on a Friday night she would probably try to kill me.

[Enabler]

the interpretation seems to be, "it's abusove to want to know the same level of detail about what I am doing that I would expect to know about you".

This does make sense when you think about shame. PwBPD have core shame therefore they are defencive and protective about how much you know about them. But, they are also hypervigilent about desertion and threats so they need/expect to know everything about you and your activities. Knowing too much about them involkes shame and feels emotionally negative and hurtful, even though you were being reasonable and non-invasive. She has to blame someone for this negative hurtful feeling and it's not going to be her. Fits nicely with the 20 rules of BPD

[pearlsw]

Hi Husband321,

So, if I understand correctly, your wife, who has now left your home to stay with her mom (temporarily or permanently?) has accused you of being verbally abusive and you feel hurt by this? You are looking for a better way to handle such accusations because you sometimes feel the need to raise your voice in response?

If you aren't verbally abusive then there is no reason to JADE. Does raising your voice ever "fix" the problem or does it escalate things? Would you prefer things not escalate? Then a better response is to not put more fuel on the fire. If she believes you are abusive how would arguing about it make that better for you? Disprove anything? It won't. Just my two cents!  

I know this is hard. Believe me. I used to feel the urge to JADE - a lot of us do. But trying to "reason" with someone who is hurling insults just escalates things... .so perhaps time to give up that approach - with intention. Giving up the idea that you have to defend yourself [especially in the heat of an ugly argument] is actually quite liberating. Now, the next step is hard. You don't want to be a doormat and get walked all over and insulted, no one does. There are better approaches on this too. Have you seen this workshop yet? Arguing Don't Engage: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107.10  And be being more consistent about Validation she will feel heard more often and you have another tool to potentially make things better. This takes a lot of discipline and mindfulness, but it's worth it to have these tools (and many others) at your disposal no matter who are you interacting.

Which of the tools are you currently using/practicing with?

wishing you the best! pearlsw.

[Husband321]

the interpretation seems to be, "it's abusove to want to know the same level of detail about what I am doing that I would expect to know about you".

This does make sense when you think about shame. PwBPD have core shame therefore they are defencive and protective about how much you know about them. But, they are also hypervigilent about desertion and threats so they need/expect to know everything about you and your activities. Knowing too much about them involkes shame and feels emotionally negative and hurtful, even though you were being reasonable and non-invasive. She has to blame someone for this negative hurtful feeling and it's not going to be her. Fits nicely with the 20 rules of BPD

Exactly.  This has been an ongoing problem. It makes me feel not important at all.

Small example :  we are sitting on the couch on my day off.  She picks up her phone to text. Then just says "ok made my hair appointment today. It's at 2". And these appointments basically take the entire day.

Now for me I would say "hey. I am thinking about getting a hair cut today. Is that cool with you?" Then make an appointment.

This even extends to big things... .we planned Christmas together for months. Out of nowhere she is like "I am taking my kids out of state for Christmas to visit family". Basically leaving my son and I behind. She told her entire family this and I never knew.

Then she changed her idea to staying here but being at her moms. Then it was back to staying at home with me.  Then back to her moms. 

Nothing ever discussed.  Just her making plans then telling me. Or I find it accidentally in other ways.

Me trying to explain how this bothers me just leads to some big circular draining argument she can't understand.  She just says "I told you my plans. What's the problem.  You are never happy.  You always have a problem with me. I am leaving "

[Enabler]

Emotionally you have tied yourself to a rollercoaster. In doing so you are experiencing all her ups and downs and chaotic decisions. Your choice now is to either try and hold on to her and therefore stay bound to the rollercoaster, or detach yourself. I'm not saying that you have to walk away or stop loving her, you just have to accept her for who she is. She will make decisions based on her feelings and emotions, she wants to be spontaneous and ironically probably still feels like you're controlling even when you stand still in amazement watching her flit from one chaotic decision to another. Every time you question her inability to stick to a decision you are invalidating her. You are basically saying "What you are doing is wrong". From her reaction it would suggest she cannot see that this behavior is wrong at all, she's utterly unaware of the inconvenience it causes to the people around her (maybe her mother is thinking the exact same thing as you about Christmas). I totally understand that you wished she could make a decision that was empathetic to what you may want for these events and stuck to it, it's crazymaking planning for X only for Y to happen at the last minute, however, this is your reality and thinking it to be any different is only going to cause you more pain and anguish.

I know it's a bit of a cliche on bpdfamily to look at yourself and start centralising yourself in your universe rather than centralising your pwBPD, but in these cases I think you really need to. Choose whether you want to stay tied to the rollercoaster or get off. If you stay holding on you will likely continue to experience the same emotional volatility. If you get off the rollercoaster and start to make your own plans independently from her then you may start to feel some inner peace.

"I will be having Christmas at home with my folks, I would love you to be there but I will leave that decision up to you, I need to know at least a week in advance as we need to buy food, if you decide after that I'm afraid you can't come. I don't not think it's reasonable to muck my parents around"

Being the free option is a big problem for me and one that I try and avoid. She likes to keep all options open such that she can choose at the last minute depending on what she feels like doing on the day. This is not reasonable adult behaviour and I would try and avoid leaving these kinds of options on the table. Decide by X else you're out.

[Husband321]

Exactly

That's her problem with me.  She says I "go on and on"trying to explain or look for reasons.

If anyone else had this behavior I would think they are doing it on purpose. Or cheating. So I am never at ease.

As for her, she has a large inheritance so she has the ability, for now, to never change. She rented 3 different airbnb houses the past month. Put her things in storage. But was with every me every day and night until she went to her moms Saturday. Total waste of money.

Her family here consists of her mom and sister who are the exact same way.  Both single, never grounded, both lost and wandering.

One time she even paid cash for an entire year to lease a home when she was mad at me. She didn't stay one night.  Then felt extremely bad and asked me to help her get some of her money back. She lost about 7000 for that impulsive decision.

Other times in the past week she would casually tell me "I think I might move to another state.  I think I might move to another country.  I think I might go back to school.  You are the love of my life and I will grow old with you". All within the same day.  And I truly believe she doesn't even see how hurtful this is.
She acts as if we should just hang out, small talk, have fun, have sex, and not even think about it "together". It's all her decision.

One day exasperated I told her I was taking a vacation myself then. This led to her almost freaking out if I would be gone. Like she can't see what she does to me, but hates it if done to her.

[Enabler]

Emotionally she seems at the centre of your universe. What happens when you put you at the centre of your universe?

My guess is you were raised to think about other people first, think about your impacts on other people rather than their impacts on you?

[Husband321]

Emotionally she seems at the centre of your universe. What happens when you put you at the centre of your universe?

My guess is you were raised to think about other people first, think about your impacts on other people rather than their impacts on you?

It didn't start like this.  It was her dream to stay at home. Care for me. She played the card that she was "ultra submissive"

Then slowly it changed and got totally out of control. At that point I kept trying to put out fires.  This is after we married.

I didn't have the tools to be in this type of marriage. I still don't.  I don't know if anyone does.

But yes. We were together 24 7.  Very tied up emotionally

[Enabler]

What happens if you stop reacting and stop putting out the fires? Will she run off?

[Husband321]

What happens if you stop reacting and stop putting out the fires? Will she run off?

It seems the harder I tried she still ran off.  Waste a ton of money. Then return with new promises.

She can "switch off" and casually tell me she just wants to move alone to a different state or country.  A day after she tells me she wants to be with me forever.

She actually did go to a different state and put a deposit down on a house. But then changed her mind, lost the money and came back

[Enabler]

How much more of this can you deal with or how do you ringfence yourself from the chaotic behaviour such that it doesn't impact you?

I know from personal experience it's easier said than done. My wife is divorcing me and we're now at the point where I think it goes one way or another. I might be wrong but I'm happy not to be the one pushing in any direction just going with the flow. But it's no longer just words and she's doing little things to make it happen (maybe in the hope that I eventually take control and make it happen properly ). At what point do you say... .you're not welcome back?

[Husband321]

How much more of this can you deal with or how do you ringfence yourself from the chaotic behaviour such that it doesn't impact you?

I know from personal experience it's easier said than done. My wife is divorcing me and we're now at the point where I think it goes one way or another. I might be wrong but I'm happy not to be the one pushing in any direction just going with the flow. But it's no longer just words and she's doing little things to make it happen (maybe in the hope that I eventually take control and make it happen properly ). At what point do you say... .you're not welcome back?

Today she asked me to print and fill out divorce papers.

She said she would come over to sign. What time is good for me.

I didn't reply fast enough to her email, and she was just like "I hate you so will never see your face again. They will get signed in another way"

[Husband321]

Today she asked me to print and fill out divorce papers.

She said she would come over to sign. What time is good for me.

I didn't reply fast enough to her email, (an hour)and she was just like "I hate you so will never see your face again. They will get signed in another way"

[Husband321]

Of all the other issues here is another one... .

At this point she has not replied to my email in over 24 hours.  She really seems to have painted me black.  She blocked me on her phone. She is staying at her moms.

For the past two years she has explained how toxic her mom is. And her sister. And for the most part it is very true. My wife truly knows she should not even be in contact with these people. As unfortunate as it is. They are both single and push her to be single as well. I mean almost daily hating on them.

But now she is with them. All of a sudden. Ow I am the bad guy. So I am completely black. She can't be close or cordial with all of us at the same time.

[5xFive]

Husband321.
I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with this! I too know what you’re experiencing. My husband does the same thing. Yells and yells until I snap and yell back and then I’m “always” yelling and abusing. What? He also says I’ve ruined his life. AND when he paints me black and decides he wants a divorce (at least once a month) he wants ME to do the legwork. I have to fill and print the papers, then he’ll sign. Why oh why do they do this? I wish I had advice for you. I don’t, but I’m here to tell you that you’re not alone. We all understand what you’re going though in one way or another.
I hope things work out for you... .

[Husband321]

Husband321.
I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with this! I too know what you’re experiencing. My husband does the same thing. Yells and yells until I snap and yell back and then I’m “always” yelling and abusing. What? He also says I’ve ruined his life. AND when he paints me black and decides he wants a divorce (at least once a month) he wants ME to do the legwork. I have to fill and print the papers, then he’ll sign. Why oh why do they do this? I wish I had advice for you. I don’t, but I’m here to tell you that you’re not alone. We all understand what you’re going though in one way or another.
I hope things work out for you... .

Exactly.  About once a month. 

And yes. It's my job to fill out the papers and send to her. 

I guess my question is:

I wonder if once they are enraged and saying it is all over, how long does that last? 

She left me sitting at a restaurant last week.  Said she hates me.  It is over.  She just walked out.

Then she followed me, asked me to stop and eat somewhere else, then was kissing me passionately.

So as she is alone now, I wonder if she is even thinking of me. Do I exist to her. Do I not.  Does she hate me and love me depending on the minute. 

[Enabler]

You do not have to enable something you do not want. There is a simple response to this, it's been discussed on other threads:

"I do not want this, you are free to apply for a divorce if this is what you want, I am not standing in your way"

Can you think of anything you might need to add or action you might want to take?

[5xFive]

"I do not want this, you are free to apply for a divorce if this is what you want, I am not standing in your way"

This is very close to what I normally say when h tells me to do the work. He usually comes back with “Fine. I will!” And then he doesn’t do anything and apologizes 2 days later for his hurtful words. *Shrugs* I’m tired of the apologies. I just want him to stop. Just shut his mouth until his emotions regulate again. I know, at this point in his life, that’s not possible for him.

[Husband321]

You do not have to enable something you do not want. There is a simple response to this, it's been discussed on other threads:

"I do not want this, you are free to apply for a divorce if this is what you want, I am not standing in your way"

Can you think of anything you might need to add or action you might want to take?

Well typically this usually just goes away after a couple days and she is in love again. This time she actually ignored my emails for 24 hours.

I guess part of me feels if I say this, and tel her to take action she just might.  As she is impulsive.  And actually call a lawyer.  Make me get one etc. when. One is needed.

So it hasn't come up again since yesterday.

[Husband321]

Well... .

I drove by the house she is staying at about 1 mile from me.

Her car is there.  She isn't.

I wait down the street.  She pulls up with some guy.

The guy was driving my car.

He is all aggresssive.  I am aggressive. I ask who are you.

He says he just met her.  But she wants a divorce and he will call the cops.

Long story short my wife was cheating.  With some weird ugly older guy.

[5xFive]

Wow. I’m so sorry.