Want to understand loyalty of grown children to BPD mother...

[OhGeeeez!]

I think my MIL has BPD.  Her 3 children (2 sons and 1 daughter) all fully accept and indulge her behavior without limits.  They each seem so different, but they all go great lengths to satisfy her every whim or excuse the most unthinkable bad behavior! 

Example: She boycotted the birth of a grandson refusing to visit and her son accepted the obvious insult (reprisal for her daughterinlaw informing her she was unwelcome in the delivery room) making the excuse that she must have been tired.  Her daughter joined in the boycott. (To date, no one has addressed the boycott and we are all to assume fatigue.)

I really need to understand the dynamics at play here.  I feel completely at a loss. 

I suggested that the my husband and his siblings address her instability riding her bike at 74 in a bad neighborhood after receiving radiation treatments for cancer.  One praised her for staying active and trying to get her strength back, one said i didn't see her (it never happened) struggling and nearly being struck by a vehicle due to her inattention, one said i didn't see what i saw, and another said "knowing her she was probably trying to knock herself off balance to test whether she could right the bike by herself," and one thought it was more likely that she knew she was being observed and was trying to evoke sympathy so as to get an invitation to rest.  They all came up with outlandish explanations that absolved them of any need to address her limited abilities--even for her own safety!

I am so puzzled.

[Notwendy]

Maybe I can help with this.

One aspect is family systems- when there is a disordered person in a family, the other members can take on compensatory roles to sort of balance the system. When a child grows up in such a family, the expectations are set from a very early age. For the child, this is their "normal". I have read that even abused children love their parents. These behaviors are also their survival- a child is dependent on the parent and fears the consequences of their anger or disapproval. The adult child isn't dependent, but the patterns are all they know to do.

When a person breaks away from the family pattern, the system gets unbalanced and the other members feel discomfort. They rally to coerce the person back into the pattern that is comfortable for the whole family. If the person does not comply- he or she may lose the relationship. This is a real risk and the person may not wish to do this.

Then there is denial. Some family members are truly in denial of the issues, while for others, they don't look abnormal as they may not know what "normal" looks like.

Also pwBPD are often not obviously disordered and can have periods of time where they seem quite normal and pleasant. They also are most disordered with people the closest to them so others don't see it. If the child speaks up, they are invalidated.

My BPD mother is, at times, charming and great to be with, witty and smart. In private, behind closed doors, she has all the behaviors of BPD. As children, we knew this isn't normal but if we spoke up- we were punished or told we were wrong. She has relatives who tell me how wonderful she is.

The cost of not going along with the BPD parent can be high. I set boundaries on her, and these relatives cut contact with me. My mother even managed to convince my father to let go of his relationship with me.

My best advice is to let your H come to his own conclusions about what to do with his mother. He stands to lose connection with his family if he doesn't go along with her. I chose a middle ground- I have boundaries with her, but I will sometimes just go along with her behaviors in group situations with the family members who still speak to me. But in some areas, I do not tolerate her behaviors. Your H needs to find his way with this.

I will add that I share your being astounded. My mothers FOO and my father ( he is deceased now) are educated, many have professional careers and strong ethics. They know the difference between what is acceptable behavior and what is not. They raised me with these ethics as well. Yet, when it comes to my mother, they don't acknowledge her behaviors. We kids are not allowed to talk about it and are expected to act like she is just normal. 

[enlighten me]

Something else that might be going on is to do with BPD and abandonment fears. My exgf over indulges her children and will do anything to make them happy so that they wont abandon her. Even when she tells them off she ends up buying them a present as she feels guilty/ worried they will abandon her. If your husband was raised like this then its probable that he will still want to please her as he feels she was a great mum.

[ProudDad12]

While my mom hasn't gone to the lengths mentioned in your post, I can speak from a "son" perspective. I'm the oldest of 3 children (also 2 sons and 1 daughter), and am beginning to believe my mom has some degree of BPD.

I'm still in the process of learning and comprehending things. I met my wife in 2005 and it wasn't until 2016 that I really began to understand that my extended family's dynamics are not normal or healthy. Before then, the concepts of enmeshed family, co-dependency, and BPD were foreign terms to me. My wife saw it, and tried to tell me, but I just attributed it to cultural differences (she's from NJ and I'm from the Deep South). Unfortunately my denial nearly broke our marriage. For my part, I was just desperate for my extended family to like my wife, and I didn't want to rock the boat.

And honestly, as Notwendy said, it really does come down to not rocking the boat. When you are raised in such an environment, and one of the aspects of that environment outright discourages questioning things, it just becomes your normal. You don't know any better. And in cases like mine, questioning things can have severe consequences. While I don't look back and see a history of abuse, as a 37 year old man I can still say with 100% conviction than I am scared to death of rocking the boat. There are usually consequences, and in my case that consequence was that my mom would probably die (from either heart attack or suicide). Through therapy I'm learning and slowly accepting that I am not responsible for my mom's health. My siblings still cling to this, to the point that in our last confrontation, I was told by my sister that if my mom died she would never forgive me. And the little 13 year old version of myself somewhere inside my head still tries to believe it.

Rambling aside, I guess my point is that the concept of going with the flow or not rocking the boat in these family dynamics is not a trivial thing. My brother has outright admitted to me in the past that my mom has mental issues, but this was just because he had recently been the scapegoat due to the suggestion of him and his wife & son moving out of state. Once that blowed over and he stayed in the same town, he went right back to being a protector of not rocking the boat, and got selective amnesia on the time he was in the crosshairs. I truly don't understand it, and just hope that maybe he is still aware, but just doesn't want to admit it, thinking that his current actions are best for my mom.

Unfortunately, after all that, I really can't give any helpful advice on opening your husband's eyes. For me, it took having a major confrontation with my mom that went down via text that resulted in me seeing a therapist to make sure I wasn't the crazy one. After he read the whole argument, he told me I wasn't crazy, and that first 50 minute session became my first step to seeing that what I thought was normal was not normal at all. A year and a half later, I STILL struggle with fear, obligation, and guilt, and still have to reach out to my wife, friends, pastor, etc. to help me with what is normal/healthy and what is not.

If I can give any advice, it will be this... .be patient with your husband. I am incredibly grateful my wife has stuck with me. It's hard to break away from these dynamics even with full understanding of how wrong they are. I'm still trying, and even with my increasing awareness, it still boggles my mind that my siblings are so blindly supportive of mom's behavior when it's out of line. In all this, my faith in God and my wife are my lifelines.

Another side of the frustration is the fact that I come from one of those "picture perfect" families that everyone loves. So nobody else outside of close friends would even believe me on some of the things I've dealt with. And that might be the rub... .my mom is a great and generous person, so when things are good they are great. Which is why I used to go to great lengths to not rock that boat and trigger emotional insanity, or at least an onslaught of fear, obligation, or guilt attacks.

[Notwendy]

Proud Dad - you have described the fear well. I have a moment of fear/panic when I speak about my mother's issues- as if I am going to be punished. I am middle aged and she is now elderly and can not "punish" me like she could when I was a child- but this experience of "fear" is as if I was a child.

People associate a feeling of motherly love when they think of their mothers- but for me, I think these feeling of love and fear are confused- if I really think about it, I feel fear when I think of my mother. Walking on eggshells was the norm for us growing up.

Perhaps this is what the people who are "loyal" to her feel- even though it doesn't make logical sense for grown adults to feel this way. Yet, if this is the family culture they were raised in- this fear is how they experience love and loyalty.

[Panda39]

Hi All,

I want to add something else that I see with my SO's younger daughter and that is the desire for her mother's love.  She has spent her life as the "scapegoat" child vs her older sister the parentified "golden child".   

in 2015 their uBPDmom did things that pushed both girls to move in full-time with their dad, D21 is no contact with mom but D17 is still low contact.  I think D17 is still hopeful that her mom will show up for her so she keeps the door open.

Panda39

[Stolen]

This seems to fit what I understand to be textbook FOG.  I saw it for decades in xW's FOO, and I could never really wrap my arms around it. xMIL was the angriest, hateful person I had ever met, triangulating whomever was not in the room. xW and siblings all spoke of suicidal ideation during their childhood, a time that was defined for them by "is Mom mad?".

But nobody called MIL out on this, nobody was driven away. They remained (and still are) more enmeshed than any family I had ever met.  To me it was like watching someone you cared for get into the boxing ring and never put their hands up to defend themselves.  FOG, when you are not part of it, is a very perplexing state to observe. 

Interesting the mention of fury over being "banned" from the delivery room!  Knowing that xMIL would only bring angst, anxiety, and panic to that same setting, I wound up having to physically prevent her from pushing into the delivery room.  I subsequently heard of her retort,  "F Stolen, who does he think he is?"   Ummm - father? husband? protector of she who could/would not protect herself?    Clearly this afront would not be forgotten, and it wasn't.

[ProudDad12]

Notwendy, it scares me talking about my mom too! I can't imagine her horror if she ever saw this page and made the connection (I've certainly left enough details in my posts that anyone who knows me can identify me). Heck, a year or so ago, after my mom found out my wife confided in her own mom about stuff my mom did, she went through the roof, and amongst other things called my wife devilish. But trying to explain to her why that was wrong just went over her head. Meanwhile, she's told us about things my sister's MIL has done, so there's a mind boggling double standard to which she's blind.

The delivery room situation does sound familiar. While they respected that I was the only one in the delivery room, my family is resentful that we asked to not have anyone stay at our house overnight our first night at home with our son.

OhGeeeez, another aspect to consider is that they play dirty. Just this morning I received a long text from my mom riddled with FOG. And another one with a picture of me and my parent's when I was a toddler, with a text about how the Bible also says honor your parents. Not sure if those tactics apply in your husband's situation, but even when you know better they are infuriating and brutal to deal with.

[Notwendy]

That "honor your parents" one is a tough one. It is one that I struggle with. I assumed that this meant I had to obey them and comply with their requests- basically be a doormat.

I attend ACA groups and religion is a topic. Basically our ideas of religion stem from our parents- who raise us according to their interpretation of religion. Many of the members in the group had an idea of God as a "Get you God"- because they had "Get you parents". I was always fearful of not being forgiven for my mistakes because my parents treated every slight as an unforgivable crime. Talking to anyone about my mother was one of those "crimes".

Exploring religion, there is also the concept that we were made in God's image. In this case, our task is to be who God made us to be, not what our parents think we should be. When we are WOE and appeasing them when we don't want to - we are being inauthentic. That is actually taking away from our own image- the one intended for us to be.

So- do I listen to what my parents want me to be- or be my authentic self?

I do honor my parents. I am not deliberately mean to them. I try to comply with their wishes unless it infringes on my boundaries. Do I allow my mother to manipulate and mistreat me or my children? No, because that enables her to be mean and hurtful. So I try to do the ethical thing as best as I can. Sometimes that means she isn't happy.

I think we all have to work out out ethics and self preservation in these situations. It isn't easy, but IMHO, a mistake isn't unforgivable at least in the eyes of God. Do the best you can.

[Woolspinner2000]

Like the rest of you, it has been a very great struggle for me to know what that verse means when it says to honor your parents. I was scared to death to even say one word about my uBPDm when I began T. In fact it took me a year of talking about anything and everything else to decide if I dared speak about her. Then she died, and I worried that she could hear me from the dead.   I was terrified of her. Sometimes I still am, or rather I should say my inner kids are still terrified. And posting on this site? The worst betrayal of all! Notice I'm still here posting!   

My T and I went round and round on this topic. If I said something bad or what I felt was disrespectful, then I was dishonoring my uBPDm I would say to him. Each of us here know that the topic and verse was well drilled into us, right? But when my T changed things up, he challenged my thinking.

"The best way to honor your parents is to follow the Lord. What does the Lord tell you? To follow Him only and his leading."

But wait, don't I have to follow my mom (husband, dad, etc.) and what she says first? No, the Bible doesn't teach that we are to follow our parents above God. I can understand if my T said that the best way to honor God is to follow my parents, but no, that's not what he said. My brain hurt for a long time over that one.

As with most of our steps to healing, it takes time to ponder and think on these things. Take your time with this one too.   

 
Wools

[OhGeeeez!]

Thank you all for sharing.  I still need a deeper understanding, but this does help.  My brotherinlaw is terrified that his wife wants to put his mother in her place.  I do not understand what he thinks will happen.  They both want to move out of their broke-down and now too small house but they live 2 blocks from his mom... .and even moving to a suburb of the city he fears he will never see his mother again. ?#? Plus, he would then live closer to his wife's family which would cause soo much jealousy in his mom!  But who cares?  She is in her 70s... .what could she do?

[OhGeeeez!]

I also really liked the thought of family unit all working to compensate and how all feel any "disturbance in the force."  my husband explained something similar.  Triangulation is what i thought of.

[Teno]

I once read a post about a dad, saying: I just don't know why they like her so much, how does she do it".
I never understood and always wondered why a dad would say that.

I read this article and I asked myself: The MIL undermines her H, So when I get undermined by MIL. Does that trigger the same feelings in my W and her siters?

https://bogbit.com/is-your-spouse-undermining-your-parental-authority/
"If your partner typically speaks to you in a demeaning way in front of the children, this can indeed be a sign that he or she is undermining your parental authority. The children may not have a clear view on your role as a parent and figure of authority and may only see your partner in this light. Not only does this clear the way for the children to disobey and disrespect you down the road, it also may set up a scenario in which they do not feel entirely safe and secure with you, when the other parent is not present."

My MIL tried to get all her daughters in the same home town. The one never left, the other lasted 2 years and we moved further away. I just remember my W's anxieties: miss my family, how will we survive without them.

Thinking back I remembered how I got undermined by MIL to W, My work is not going to be successful, who will help you looking after the kids, we can help you with money, We can get your husband a job, we know people. My wife believed all of this at the time. The other sisters would also support the MIL's undermining at different occasions.

How do you control people and keep them in denial: Undermine, create doubt and dangle a carrot.

I suppose we want to see our parents as heroes and it is so hard to step out and face that sometimes they are not! Maybe it is easier to stay in denial and take the least amount of resistance.

[strength_love]

Never underestimate the power of denial. In order to understand this mechanism I find it useful to look at the other side of it.

Sally is in a relationship with Tom. They have a very magnetic attraction to each other, and things move really fast. They declare passionate love for each other and are soon married and living together. One day Tom gets jealous of Sally spending time with a work colleague and beats her black and blue. Her friends tell her she shouldn't be with such an abusive man, that no one who really loves her would treat her that way. Sally rejects their concerns and insists that Tom hit her because he loves her so much.

Sally has two choices here: 1] Believe that Tom loves her more than anything, that he is devoted to her and would never intentionally hurt her. He was just so in love with her that he couldn't take the thought of losing her, and that love and fear were so overpowering that he lost control. 2] Believe that the man she is deeply in love with and committed to, who she has tied her fortunes to, is dangerously violent, and for her own safety she should leave him.

This dynamic can be even more powerful when applied to a parent. When we grow up in an abusive home and we feel powerless, often as children the only way to regain power and a sense of safety in the situation is to believe that we did something bad to deserve being abused. That our parents love us. The alternative is to accept that we are not safe and have no control over what happens, and that the people we are dependent on for our well being are dangerous to us. Over time we often idealize our parents while demonizing ourselves. This is how we cope with being in an abusive home.

I did this with my mother. It took me decades of therapy to realize how dangerous and cruel she was. I was so attached to the idea of her being this loving person who loved me more than anything in the world, because the alternative (i.e. reality) was unbearable to me.

So when someone is faced with two perspectives and they continually seem to be choosing what seems to be the wrong one, it can be helpful to examine what they might be getting out of choosing the wrong one or what they might be giving up by accepting the truth. The stakes in these types of situations can be very high for some people - far higher than what might be initially obvious to us.