She wants to go to marriage counseling (again)

[defogging]

We had another big argument a few days ago.  Once again, it started with something simple.  uBPDw wanted to take the kids to the museum, my oldest didn't want to go, I offered for the oldest to do something with me instead, and the oldest wanted to hang out with me.  Big argument ensues, we can only do things uBPDw's way, all the kids have to go with her regardless of what anyone else wants.  Circular argument about how I never spend time with the kids, I always want to have the kids to myself, I'm always trying to split the family up, if I want to do something with the kids then I have to go the museum with them.  Ridiculous.

Anyways, she said at one point that we need to go back to counseling.  I have mixed feelings on this.  Last time was a disaster, it ended up with us being worse off because the T we had completely missed what was going on and was trying to get me to be a "better husband", thus enabling uBPDw.  At the time I wanted to try a different T but uBPDw refused any more counseling and we've been stuck ever since.  That's the negative.

The positive I could see about going back to MC:  I didn't know anything about BPD then, now I do.  I'm not looking for a diagnosis, but if I could get a T to see her behavior patterns I wonder if it's possible to get uBPDw to make progress on reacting to things in a more productive way.  Right now our relationship and family is stuck, we can't talk about anything without a fight.  We're two people living separate lives and making decisions in our own silos when we need to communicate with each other about family stuff.

Any advice?  Would you go back to MC again?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waitingwife]

I’m sorry that you’re having the circular arguments. Inspite of all chanes nons make, the BPDs will continue to have the circular arguments & rage however the degree of those will be contained.
We have tried a fee sessions if MC and it helped to a small extent but then I also feel like we didn’t get a good fit for a therapist.
However what has helped me most is having iur individual T first for a few years. UBPDH didn’t want to see T & refused it when I started. Can we move the focus away from your W’s BPD and start finding a Therapist withwim you can process everything you’ve been through? A relationship with a BPD can take a toll on you and one person changing the dynamic can makeworries/stress turn into solutions. Since you’re the bigger person with ahgh Emotional quotient, you can start and learn to set boundaries. It worked for me all though it was a very long journey (3years).

[Sunfl0wer]

I didn't know anything about BPD then, now I do.  I'm not looking for a diagnosis, but if I could get a T to see her behavior patterns I wonder if it's possible to get uBPDw to make progress on reacting to things in a more productive way.

It has just been my experience that whenever I focus on “fixing” another person, not much is resolved for me.

Consider... .
If you want to go to counseling... .Go for you and see how it can help you.
“Hi Therapist, what can I do to cope with feeling unvalued? Or when I feel unsupported?... .etc”

While you may see the other person as the “target patient,” reality is usually that when folks enter therapy open and willing to work on themself, then stuff may get done.  Yet if you are attending T for the hope the other person gets help... . well, all the motivation in the world on your part cannot help a person who lacks motivation/ability to look at their issues... .to work on themself.

MC in general though for couples where one had BPD, rarely is fruitful, (based on reading around here a whole fricken lot.) and instead often exacerbates issues as the pwBPD wants the T to “take sides” and if the T fails to take her/his side, then the therapist gets painted black.

For MC to work, I think there needs to be two individuals willing to look at what they contribute to the dynamic and issues between them.  While it only takes one person to destabilize a relationship, I think it takes two to rebuild one.  Otherwise, the person without BPD is working on self coping skills, management skills, containment, descalating, boundaries, etc.  (The pwBPD can also learn coping skills, yet this is usually best done in individual DBT where triangulation is less accessible.)

[defogging]

I'm interested in working on myself as well.  I know I need that and am currently reading books and seeing a T from time to time.  My current T isn't very helpful though, which is why I haven't been seeing him regularly.  I don't think he's knowledgeable about BPD and doesn't offer much input on how to cope with things.

MC in general though for couples where one had BPD, rarely is fruitful, (based on reading around here a whole fricken lot.) and instead often exacerbates issues as the pwBPD wants the T to “take sides” and if the T fails to take her/his side, then the therapist gets painted black.

For MC to work, I think there needs to be two individuals willing to look at what they contribute to the dynamic and issues between them.  While it only takes one person to destabilize a relationship, I think it takes two to rebuild one.  Otherwise, the person without BPD is working on self coping skills, management skills, containment, descalating, boundaries, etc.  (The pwBPD can also learn coping skills, yet this is usually best done in individual DBT where triangulation is less accessible.)

There's a lot of truth in what you wrote.  My experience with MC was the T bought in to uBPDw when she would say "he doesn't help around the house, I need him to do X".  Then T would work on getting me to do X, which I would.  Then the next week I needed to do Y, then Z, then back to A,B,C and you get the picture.  I got more and more frustrated with MC, because eventually I was running around doing everything and it didn't solve a thing.  I guess my hope was that maybe a better T could realize that the problem isn't that I'm "not doing" X,Y,Z,A,B,C and try to work towards getting her to see how she contributes to the problem.  But you're completely right, the reality is uBPDw won't think that any rebuilding needs to be done by her, and if the T isn't on her side then she would paint the T black.

Your replies have made me re-think how to approach this.  I think I will find a better T for me that can help me get better at dealing with my situation, and then after awhile I will give more thought to going back to MC with uBPDw.

Thank you for your thoughts on this!

[Sunfl0wer]

Your replies have made me re-think how to approach this.  I think I will find a better T for me that can help me get better at dealing with my situation, and then after awhile I will give more thought to going back to MC with uBPDw.

I think this is a fair approach.  (Yet I am just one opinion here.)

Sorry that your current therapist doesn’t seem effective.
Just based on my readings here, it seems that some have benefitted from codependents anonymous groups.  I personally do not like 12 step stuff but what I do like is that it appears to be a good way to learn boundaries.  A good way to understand what stuff is “someone else’s” stuff vs “my stuff.”  A good way to learn to recognize when your being baited in the dynamic and to stop picking up that stuff... .let it lay where the other person dropped it. (I didn’t learn that stuff at a step group, but in a combo of reading here, other places, and therapy.  And am still learning/sharpening.)

Another thing that may be helpful is to continue posting/reading.  I have learned so much when a member posts a problem, gives the “play by play” and some senior members coach them through options of learning a new way to respond.  These post are eye opening to me and I have learned so much and continue to when I encounter them. (And I’m not in a r/s with someone with a PD.  I literally just read it to sharpen my own interpersonal skills nad be better at negotiating stuff for work and family relationships.)

Personally I happen to be a big fan of trauma therapy.  It has been a game changer for me.  After over 30 years of on/off therapy... .I am now in my 40’s, met my first therapist skilled in several modalities super helpful for trauma, and it has been truly life changing.  He does EMDR, brainspotting, hypnosis, ACR, alpha wave stuff, biometric stuff, etc.  I saw that he actually is a trainer of EMDR and decided on him mostly based on that, I found the other stuff out later.  I do not sit and simply talk in therapy anymore.  We get stuff done, vs rehashing stuff for the sake of rehashing it.  We rewire how it is processed and stored and renetwork the connections.  It is amazing!  Lots who leave an EMDR session report the same, that general baselines are improved after several sessions of it.

Another thing I learned here which sucks is RA = radical acceptance.  This is pretty huge and an ongoing lesson that I revisit.  When I am unhappy about my situation, RA reminds me that it is what it is and the only thing I can change is me.  If what I don’t like is something external, my only choice is to look at what I can do differently to cope and realize that what it is... .is.

[Ellemno]

Also, therapists trained in DBT or Schema Therapy should be familiar with BPD

[defogging]

Just scheduled an appointment for myself with a T next week that has experience with BPD and practices DBT.  Fingers crossed that this helps our situation.

[Enabler]

This post has made me think about how I would approach marriage counselling if I were to ever have the opportunity again with my uBPDw. What would I say, how would I act, what went wrong when we have marriage counselling a year ago?

I lost the battle in the first game in counselling, I was emotionally all over the place and must have looked like the BPD. Whilst my W sat their cool as a cucumber I was distraught and confused that my life was being turned upside down and accusations of abuse were not coming from unreasonable behaviour but actually reasonable behaviour and attempts for me to draw boundaries. I know some will disagree but i believe it's extremely important that you send clear messages to the counsellor about BPD without maybe overtly saying it. "I have invalidated her and I know that hurts her" "I don't get how we can agree one thing one minute and then the next you deny we agreed at all" "I don't understand why when come back from leaving you, you love me less" "why does you mood change so quickly and you ignore me for days?"

I JADE'd for hours as well. As my wife threw the proverbial blame stick at me it deflected attention away from her whilst I frantically defended myself. I was painted as the monster and my reaction of a very wired frustrated person who was in despair reinforced that to the counsellor. Being cool, picking words carefully and ultimately being the adult in the room I would suggest is a very good starting point.

Your T will hopefully help you to have a strategy and also help you work out what you want to achieve from the sessions. What do you want to achieve based on what you now know about BPD and your wife?

[defogging]

This post has made me think about how I would approach marriage counselling if I were to ever have the opportunity again with my uBPDw. What would I say, how would I act, what went wrong when we have marriage counselling a year ago?

I lost the battle in the first game in counselling, I was emotionally all over the place and must have looked like the BPD. Whilst my W sat their cool as a cucumber I was distraught and confused that my life was being turned upside down and accusations of abuse were not coming from unreasonable behaviour but actually reasonable behaviour and attempts for me to draw boundaries. I know some will disagree but i believe it's extremely important that you send clear messages to the counsellor about BPD without maybe overtly saying it. "I have invalidated her and I know that hurts her" "I don't get how we can agree one thing one minute and then the next you deny we agreed at all" "I don't understand why when come back from leaving you, you love me less" "why does you mood change so quickly and you ignore me for days?"

I JADE'd for hours as well. As my wife threw the proverbial blame stick at me it deflected attention away from her whilst I frantically defended myself. I was painted as the monster and my reaction of a very wired frustrated person who was in despair reinforced that to the counsellor. Being cool, picking words carefully and ultimately being the adult in the room I would suggest is a very good starting point.

Your T will hopefully help you to have a strategy and also help you work out what you want to achieve from the sessions. What do you want to achieve based on what you now know about BPD and your wife?

This is pretty much what happened to me.  Accusations from uBPDw, I defended myself and got nowhere.  I tried to get the first T to see the pattern that when I fix something, that issue is forgotten and another comes up.  She acknowledged that but never grasped that there might be a problem with uBPDw.  Frantic is a good word to describe me near the end with that T.   The T even told me she saw signs of an anxiety disorder and sleep disorder in me.  Yeah, no kidding.  Anyone would have that when living my life behind closed doors.

Your second paragraph is sort of what I was thinking of when I started the thread.  When W said we needed counselling again I saw it as an opportunity to hopefully get a better T to see what's really going on.  I initially thought W had PPD since her strange behavior started right after our 3rd child was born.  While hormones may have brought out the BPD beast within, I was incorrect about PPD.  Unfortunately, I spent a lot of time trying to lead the T towards seeing that something was off with W, and I looked like a husband trying to convince the world my W is crazy.  I think the T had less trust in me because I had already "diagnosed" W myself and when W turned on the charm I looked like the crazy one.  So, I think moving forward I would tread very carefully about trying to lead a T anywhere and they would have to figure it out themselves.

Honestly, I don't think anyone could convince my W to get help unless she hits rock bottom somehow and there are concrete examples of behavior I could discuss with a T (something like a suicide attempt, documented physical abuse of the kids, etc).  I don't know where rock bottom is, and I'm scared to find out when the kids are so young as it may be something that harms them.  Part of me wants to let her hit rock bottom but the kids' vulnerability won't let me.

What I'm looking for in individual sessions: (thanks for asking, it makes me think more about it)
1.  Better ways to react to uBPDw's crises, and transfer ownership back to her without conflict
2.  Understanding boundaries and getting better at setting them, and following through
3.  Dealing with my in-laws and their enabling behaviors
4.  Dealing with no-win situations that I'm frequently placed in
5.  How to protect the kids from uBPDw's behavior
6.  Introspection about my issues and what problems I create (what about me got me into this type of relationship)
7.  Improving my weaknesses that this situation has helped me see (confidence, assertiveness, putting myself first)
8.  Creating better communication patterns at home without giving in to uBPDw's incessant demands, how to achieve compromise on issues where uBPDw is dug in
9.  Better understanding why she reacts aggressively to benign issues

[Enabler]

That's a good list you've got there and plenty to munch through.

The T even told me she saw signs of an anxiety disorder and sleep disorder in me.  Yeah, no kidding.  Anyone would have that when living my life behind closed doors.

Our couples counselor told me to go and see a Dr as she was concerned for my health. She also suggested I get individual therapy. That said, looking back at the experience I waved more red flags at her than a Monaco Grand Prix and as far as I can tell now she was clueless about any BPD traits. My approach would be vastly different now.

What would you hope to achieve from couples counselling if you went with your W?

[Sunfl0wer]

Your list seems well thought out!
Routing for you!

[defogging]

Your list seems well thought out!
Routing for you!

Thanks!

What would you hope to achieve from couples counselling if you went with your W?

Better communication techniques for both of us.  Except, I would now approach it by asking to discuss our hot button issues in therapy and try to come to a compromise in there.  Then the T could see how uBPDw twists the conversation around, manipulates, gaslights, all of that.  I would do my best to remain calm and keep directing us back to the issue we were discussing.  Not in an effort to get the T to diagnose and "fix" her, but I learned the hard way it does no good to explain to the T how difficult it is to discuss anything, I would discuss the issues and let T see it for themselves.

[Enabler]

Highlighting inconsistencies and gaslighting with a total stranger is virtually impossible. It becomes a case of he said she said. I would manage your expectations if you expect a therapist to be able to determine inconsistencies in her stories in a short period of time especially with say weekly sessions. Also, a couple of things I would also warn against is pushing her buttons during the sessions, this will likely just result in her refusing to attend... .this might feel like you've "won" but where does it get you? Also, if she's anything at all high functioning, you know, the type that can hold it together for an hour in front of a stranger or in public with friends and then when the door shuts she lets rip... .well, you're not going to get what you were hoping for with regards to her exhibiting behaviours.

Never say never but I doubt couples counselling will bring her to the dawning realisation that she suffers from BPD and needs to seek long term DBT therapy. It will just be another game where you may well come off worse and notch down a further level.

[defogging]

Highlighting inconsistencies and gaslighting with a total stranger is virtually impossible. It becomes a case of he said she said. I would manage your expectations if you expect a therapist to be able to determine inconsistencies in her stories in a short period of time especially with say weekly sessions. Also, a couple of things I would also warn against is pushing her buttons during the sessions, this will likely just result in her refusing to attend... .this might feel like you've "won" but where does it get you? Also, if she's anything at all high functioning, you know, the type that can hold it together for an hour in front of a stranger or in public with friends and then when the door shuts she lets rip... .well, you're not going to get what you were hoping for with regards to her exhibiting behaviours.

Never say never but I doubt couples counselling will bring her to the dawning realisation that she suffers from BPD and needs to seek long term DBT therapy. It will just be another game where you may well come off worse and notch down a further level.

I'm holding off on couple's counseling for now, just going to go alone to a T that is (hopefully) familiar with BPD.  I'm meeting with one on Thursday, from our phone conversation it sounds like she has a background in dealing with it.  Fingers crossed that she can help me find better ways to navigate my marriage.

I don't have any illusions that a T would help get my W to realize she has BPD and be willing to start DBT.  That's not my intent.

If my W requests counseling again I would push to discuss our big issues (moving, finances, kids' education) and leave it at that.  Just having a third party in the room to help me get the conversation back on track, with me not taking the bait of defending myself against unrelated accusations could be helpful.  If W insisted on spinning the conversation out of control week after week I would not continue, with a clear reasoning that we are not addressing our issues.  I would be clear with her that if she wants to discuss those issues and come to compromises I would keep going.  Our first T was good at getting us back on track when things went sideways, but W didn't want to see her again after a few months.

It's been 10 days and no further mention of counseling from W.  I highly doubt she has done any research or anything, so my guess is she won't bring it up again until we have another argument that doesn't go 100% her way.