What methods can be used to discuss finances with my wife?

[defogging]

A much better plan is to not JADE, validate the valid, and switch the subject.

This is the part I struggle with.  If our tactic as the non is to always calm the situation, and as you wrote, switch the subject, how does anything ever get resolved and keep the family moving forward? 

What methods can be used to discuss finances with my wife?  I can't empathize with her about how it makes her feel icky that my student loan doesn't automatically disappear.  That's life.  I got an education and we owe money to the bank for that.  All I can do is change the subject and avoid the issue, and we're stuck in neutral our whole lives.

I don't want to speak for ponco, but it seemed to me like his first post was speaking to the fact that a lot of techniques for nons to use just tap-dance around discussing issues.  In a way I see what he's saying, it is sort of like walking on eggshells to not engage in an argument just to keep peace.  The techniques are good to keep peace, but I don't see how to move forward if I have to see my wife's emotions as more important than facts.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

If our tactic as the non is to always calm the situation, and as you wrote, switch the subject, how does anything ever get resolved and keep the family moving forward?

I said this in a prior post... .

However, not JADEing is not about appeasing or calming the other person. It's about understanding human nature and responding in a way that is emotionally intelligent. Think about it. You call customer service because your android phone has a blank pink screen - how do you react when the tech says "we never had that problem, its not the phone"? You get furious.

JADE is one way we create drama triangles. This is an article about how WE contribute to drama in our life (regardless of the skills or weaknesses of the other person).
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

A key point in the article is that people who prioritize being right over resolving the conflict, are drama people - high conflict.

I have a student loan from before our marriage, and it happens to have the highest interest rate of any of our debts.  Thankfully our financial situation is good, we have few debts, and at times we've had excess cash flow to pay down this loan.

I manage the finances (thank goodness).  When I've made extra payments to get the balance down I've been verbally attacked.  She just sees this loan as BAD - it's my fault, it's my responsibility, and she doesn't want to put any money towards it at all.

There is more than one way to look at this. You are looking at it from what you think is best (pay the highest interest loan down), she is looking at it from what she thinks is best (don't accelerate loan payments when you have other needs). She is also probably worrying that you could leave her and she would be stuck with her car loan... .

I'm not defending the drama, but her points are not completely invalid. She is not seeing your side. You are not seeing hers.

You can JADE your point of view, but it is not going to solve this valid difference of opinion - as you have seen.

If you are completely inflexible on this and she is also inflexible, this could create resentments that last for years.

You are a couple. Its not about doing what is right in the eyes of the financial advisor. Its about finding solutions and compromises you both can live with as a couple.

What is her biggest concern?

[Tattered Heart]

Is budgeting hard for her to understand or just something she disagrees with?

My H used to never be involved in our budget. I would pay the bills, set back money for things to spend, and he would spend however he wanted, I would get mad, etc. He didn't understand how we didn't have money left at the end of the month (I use a 0 based budget so every dollar as a place).

We went through Financial Peace University together and my H finally got on board with our budget. The class really helped him see how a budget works and we learned to work together on it. I'm a nerd so I could talk about loans and budgets and balances to my heart's content, but he is not. When he began to get involved in our budget, I created a slideshow with charts and graphs and pictures explaining to him our income, essential financial needs, what's left over at the end of the month, etc. He looked at our debt balances, minimum payments, etc. and it gave him a visual representation that didn't include lots of confusing details.

We worked out a plan where I pay the essentials and minimum payments without question. Then with the money leftover, I tell him we have $X left. We have Y and Z coming up. How would you like to spend or save this money? It works very well for us because he feels like he has a say in things and I get the essential bills paid.

Do you think including her in decision making about finances would help?

[defogging]

Before you read my novel  , I'll say up front that it isn't meant to be argumentative.  It's me trying to figure out how to use the tools and come to compromised solutions with my W.

I understand what you're saying, and think maybe I wasn't clear in my position.  I'm not stuck on being right in the sense that the only solution is to pay down my student loans, I'm frustrated at W's inability to face the reality that we owe the money and the debt won't go away without making payments.

Here's a quick timeline of my situation to help clear things up:
1.  Three years ago we had excess cash flow so I told her I wanted to put that towards my student loans to get the balance down.  She didn't have an issue with it at the time (things were going fine then)
2.  Two years ago we started having cash flow issues due to an unforeseen increase in daycare expenses.  I came up with several alternatives and presented them to her: home equity loan to pay off truck/school loans, borrow from our savings and pay back later, or temporarily stop making payments on my school loan (since I had paid ahead the next payment isn't due until 2020)  She wanted to stop payments on my school loan and I agreed with this (my least ideal solution but I compromised with her)
3.  In fall 2018 our middle child will start kindergarten so preschool costs will go away.  This solves cash flow issues and then some, so I would like to start making payments to the school loan again.  She doesn't want to make payments.  Trying to discuss this with W is a powderkeg, the fact the school loans even exist is all my fault and they are bad.
4.  Our current state is that her car has been paid off because we had to make that the highest priority 5 years ago (her decision, I gave in).  My student loan is sitting idle, collecting interest every month while she wants to spend money on other things.  The fact that our two remaining debts are things that are mine (truck, school) is used as ammunition against me whenever finances are discussed, this is very frustrating for me as I've already given in and agreed to pay off her car first.

I don't understand how to resolve this issue and move forward because my wife can't face the fact that somehow, at some time, we're going to have to pay back this loan.  So this is where I don't understand how to take the next step and resolve this. 

I think not being able to explain anything as part of JADE is my difficulty.  There are certain things in life that are facts.  1+1=2, gravity pulls us back to earth, and in my situation money borrowed needs to be paid back.  I can't change that.

However, not JADEing is not about appeasing or calming the other person. It's about understanding human nature and responding in a way that is emotionally intelligent. Think about it. You call customer service because your android phone has a blank pink screen - how do you react when the tech says "we never had that problem, its not the phone"? You get furious.

I agree getting furious is not utilizing EI, but wouldn't EI still allow for an explanation of the facts surrounding why the phone is broken?  "I pushed these three buttons and then the screen went pink", that's a fact.  I've had these kinds of interactions with tech support before, it's usually because I know what will likely happen (warranty replacement) and am impatient.  If things start to go sideways, I back up, slow down, and calmly explain the situation.  But with JADE, it seems like I'm not allowed to do any explaining.

She is also probably worrying that you could leave her and she would be stuck with her car loan... .

I'm not defending the drama, but her points are not completely invalid. She is not seeing your side. You are not seeing hers.

You can JADE your point of view, but it is not going to solve this valid difference of opinion - as you have seen.

If you are completely inflexible on this and she is also inflexible, this could create resentments that last for years.

You are a couple. Its not about doing what is right in the eyes of the financial advisor. Its about finding solutions and compromises you both can live with as a couple.

What is her biggest concern?

I think you are very right about her having concern I could leave her and she's stuck with the car loan (again, it is already paid off).  Unfortunately, it doesn't come out that way.  It's assigning blame, playing the victim, etc.

My strategy with finance is simple.  Do what's best for our family in the long run.  Hence, my position that we pay down the highest interest rate loan first.  What's best financially is not an opinion, it's a fact.  That's why I brought up this example, because it involves numbers so it is completely objective.  But I understand that finance is only part of the discussion.  There is absolutely room for compromise, and you can see above that I've compromised before.  I would be okay with making headway against the balance while also giving her some money for the things she wants.

What is her biggest concern?  Unfortunately, she hasn't shared this with me.  But, I'm still learning how to have conversations with her so hopefully I can find out in the future.

To sum up, I think the underlying frustration for me is her inflexibility on this and a couple other key issues in our marriage.  It's impossible to have a productive conversation because there is no compromise on her part.  There is one solution only, and any discussion about these issues are highly charged.  I don't know how to be in a marriage when there is no reciprocity.  This wasn't the case in the beginning of our marriage, but now she is entrenched on everything it seems.  I am willing to compromise, but it seems her idea of compromising is me giving in 100% to her demands.

[defogging]

Is budgeting hard for her to understand or just something she disagrees with?

My H used to never be involved in our budget. I would pay the bills, set back money for things to spend, and he would spend however he wanted, I would get mad, etc. He didn't understand how we didn't have money left at the end of the month (I use a 0 based budget so every dollar as a place).

We went through Financial Peace University together and my H finally got on board with our budget. The class really helped him see how a budget works and we learned to work together on it. I'm a nerd so I could talk about loans and budgets and balances to my heart's content, but he is not. When he began to get involved in our budget, I created a slideshow with charts and graphs and pictures explaining to him our income, essential financial needs, what's left over at the end of the month, etc. He looked at our debt balances, minimum payments, etc. and it gave him a visual representation that didn't include lots of confusing details.

We worked out a plan where I pay the essentials and minimum payments without question. Then with the money leftover, I tell him we have $X left. We have Y and Z coming up. How would you like to spend or save this money? It works very well for us because he feels like he has a say in things and I get the essential bills paid.

Do you think including her in decision making about finances would help?

She's intelligent, but not math oriented.  My educational background is engineering and finance so I'm the obvious candidate for managing our money.

I need to work on my nature of avoiding painful conversations and have more financial discussions with her.  We have only had a few deep discussions about finances over the years because it always turns into an inquisition over things I spent money on.  Essentially if it didn't benefit her, then I was a bad person for spending it.  It's very hard to get her to look forward and tell me what she wants to happen.  Usually I get a blank stare and she turns the discussion back towards the past and how I spent money.

What you suggest sounds like a good idea.  The trouble is there is never any time to discuss things.  Another issue for us is her always being "too busy".  Most of our conversations are 30 second snippets in between her being over-scheduled and three kids wanting our attention.  Our first T did some good things for us, including giving us direction to get the kids out of the house for the weekend to sit down and discuss money.  We had a full day of discussing a budget two years ago and it was helpful, albeit painful!

The second T had us meet with our financial adviser because my W didn't trust what I was doing with money.  We met with him, a lot of complex things were tossed around that he and I understood.  He and I agreed that my budgeting plan made financial sense, tweaked a few things with her input, but the meeting ended up with her in tears and shouting because she didn't agree with me on the school loan.  But now that you mention it, I bet she didn't understand the numbers we were throwing around.

I'm meeting with a new T myself that has experience with BPD and am hoping to better my communication skills.  Once I feel more comfortable approaching delicate subjects I will take your advice and walk her through things more slowly.

Thanks!

[Skip]

What is her biggest concern?  Unfortunately, she hasn't shared this with me.  But, I'm still learning how to have conversations with her so hopefully I can find out in the future

Just ask. And listen. And come back with your thoughts later. Maybe share what she says here.

That's the starting point on unraveling this.

[lenfan]

I don't have too much to offer you in terms of practical advice, but did want to at least let you know you that are not alone in having difficulty discussing finances. I too would avoid bringing up the subject in good periods so not to trigger conflict, and when she brought it up it was always too emotional and we would argue and have circular discussions that were very uncomfortable. And, with little kids you really are too busy and can be preoccupied with a million other things. To make matters worse, she had very legitimate concerns when it came to finances, but I believe they were greatly  magnified by her past experiences and uBPD tendencies.  So, she was at least partially right but was so entrenched in her views that it made things worse because I was afraid to discuss money with her.  Things improved somewhat when my financial situation improved, but it is still a very touchy subject. Validating the valid definitely helped. I acknowledged where she was right and, more importantly, how it made her feel. In your situation maybe you can trysomething like this when the opportunity presents itself . . .

"I know it sucks that I have this student debt and we would both rather spend the money on other things. It's a real problem these days and millions of people are burdened with student loans. I don't like it either.  At least I'm glad that my education was worth it, because it lead to a good career that allows us to enjoy a good lifestyle and I can pay it off. I have some extra cash this month, I'd like to pay  X on my loan to get that down and save on the interest rate in the long run, but if you have something else you'd rather put it towards, I'm open to that." If she fires back that you were bad to get in debt in the first place, try and not get drawn in to a fight but say something, without coming across defensively,  to the effect that you did what you had to do for your education but you understand how she feels.
 
Do you think that doing it on a month by month basis might make it more manageable than having some big budget discussion that may seem overwhelming?

Also, I think  the "Walking on Eggshells" book or workbook has some interesting scenarios where you can self assess how you deal with these situations. There's usually an engineering type response that seems very logical and makes sense at first reading, but it usually does not work.  I'm not an engineer but it took even me a while not to cling so much to logic. It might not be in your nature at first, but try to think less like an engineer and more like a diplomat in this situation. You don't need to convince or validate that 1+1=2 or gravity or the reality of your debt.  I think you need to validate that she feels the way she feels, rightly or wrongly, and that you're there to make her feel better about it. That doesn't mean you should give up on your goal of paying down the loan, just that you should approach it gingerly, rather than with a straight on appeal to logic or worse, line-in-the-sand confrontation.

I'm still pretty new to this so if any of you more experienced folks think I'm off the mark, please let me know.   

This is all easier said than done, but it does help. Good Luck!

[Tattered Heart]

I need to work on my nature of avoiding painful conversations and have more financial discussions with her.  We have only had a few deep discussions about finances over the years because it always turns into an inquisition over things I spent money on.  Essentially if it didn't benefit her, then I was a bad person for spending it.  It's very hard to get her to look forward and tell me what she wants to happen.  Usually I get a blank stare and she turns the discussion back towards the past and how I spent money.

What you suggest sounds like a good idea.  The trouble is there is never any time to discuss things.  Another issue for us is her always being "too busy". 

I think SET might work really well here. Supportive statement, show empathy statement, truth.

Ex: are you excited that the money is opening back up again? It will really help us get ahead a little. I know it’s been tough with finances being tight. I’d like us to work out what to do with the extra money that includes something you would like to spend it on and making payments on my student. When would be a good time for you to sit down and go through the numbers together? (Put the ball in her court.)

If she hem haws then again use SET: it’s important to me that you are involved in this.I would like us to make this decision by (date).

Can you see the difference in these statements compared to JADE?

[Lakebreeze]

Hi Defogging!
Thanks for starting this discussion, I will definitely be following. I don't have any answers but certainly feel your pain on this one.
Im a stay at home mom to your young kids and I pay the bills. In our 6 year marriage we haven't had a single discussion about finances that hasn't rapidly deteriorated into complete emotional dysregulation. "How much should we spend on Christmas" is some personal attack on his ability as a provider, proof that I am lazy, that the world is evil, that we should never have had kids... .it goes on and on.
Since I've started trying to work on myself I haven't even attempted a discussion about finances. If I mention that I would like to talk about finances he says he already knows, is too busy etc.
I am by nature a penny pincher and he is a spender. He doesn't have a great track record with money, bankruptcy, forclousure, short sale. So I know it's really stressful for him and he really doesn't understand money at all. Spending is a stress relief for him and he feels validated when he spends money on the kids. They are spoiled rotten.
I have no room to speak here because I haven't had a single successful money discussion with him. I will just say this...
I talked to a therapist who said to me " you need a voice. That doesn't mean yelling louder when he is already angry and not listening. It means saying what you need and what you need to say in the quiet moments. If he becomes angry, well that's his problem... .I haven't been able to apply this to my own life yet. It's a goal though and maybe can be a beacon of hope when being the non in a BPD relationship just feels like trying to keep the peace and shut your mouth.
Good luck! ( Heaven knows I need it too!)
Lakebreeze

[Panda39]

Do you think she sees the student loan debt as "your debt" not "our debt".

You might try meeting with a financial planner that can explain what it means to defer payment on a student loan... .interest accrual (so "we" owe more), how it effects you both as a couple (that this loan while it has your name on it is still debt to both of you), what can happen if this debt isn't paid, owing much more (maybe you can get an estimate amount) than you do now and garnishment (taking all choices and control away from the 2 of you).

This maybe JADEie and even triangulation but it my be worth a try to get her buy in.

I'm a boundaries girl... .if SET and the other suggestions don't work you might need to go there.

Good Luck,
Panda39

[defogging]

lenfan and Lakebreeze - Thanks for your replies.  It helps just knowing other people are out there having these same painful conversations!

I think SET might work really well here. Supportive statement, show empathy statement, truth.

If she hem haws then again use SET: it’s important to me that you are involved in this.I would like us to make this decision by (date).

Can you see the difference in these statements compared to JADE?

I think you're right on this.  I was getting hung up on the idea that I couldn't explain anything with JADE, but if I use SET there is room to bring truth into the conversation.

Do you think she sees the student loan debt as "your debt" not "our debt".

You might try meeting with a financial planner that can explain what it means to defer payment on a student loan... .interest accrual (so "we" owe more), how it effects you both as a couple (that this loan while it has your name on it is still debt to both of you), what can happen if this debt isn't paid, owing much more (maybe you can get an estimate amount) than you do now and garnishment (taking all choices and control away from the 2 of you).

This maybe JADEie and even triangulation but it my be worth a try to get her buy in.

I'm a boundaries girl... .if SET and the other suggestions don't work you might need to go there.

She most definitely views it as "my debt".  On the other hand I'm frustrated that the salary I earn because of it is viewed as "our salary".

We met with a financial planner to discuss but this was before I was aware of BPD and linked her behaviors to it.  It was ugly, but now I see how I could have handled it better.  I JADE'd the heck out of that conversation and I didn't do a good job of laying out the implications (for us) of not paying the debt down.

I am going to start meeting with a T this week to work on better ways I can approach big conversations, once I get more comfortable I'm going to bring this up again.  To begin with, I like TH's suggestion of laying everything out like a presentation with clear graphics showing how this debt will grow if it's not paid, as compared to how slowly other debts at lower interest rates would grow.