ACT, Existential crisis, and other stuff

[Harri]

Hi.  Therapy has sort of stalled for me.  I am having a hard time opening up even to myself, seeing hope for the future, and I am confused about how to talk about the stuff I need to talk about.

So let's start with ACT.  Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.  That is what my current T suggested for me last session (Tuesday).  The hospital I see her through has a partial hospitalization day program.  It is 7 hours a day, five days a week for three weeks.  She is not dropping me or anything like that but she thinks it may give me a boost as I have not moved along very well for the last month or so in our sessions.  Tuesday was the first time she ever used the label PTSD with me.  It is not new to me nor is it a surprise but she is kinda big league stuff here as is the hospital she works through.  I dunno... .I guess it seems more real to me because of that.  One of the doctors that runs the partial hospitalization program is a big wig in the world of BPD too.  Sh*t.  It reminds me of the problems I have with the PTSD diagnosis.  It seems no different to me than BPD.  Most of the time I am okay with that and think of BPD and PTSD as being on a continuum but it is really bugging me now.  Also, it seems to me that the diagnosis of PTSD is super popular now.  People throw the word trauma around for a lot of stuff that makes me just shake my head.  It is confusing to me.  

Anyhoo, there are lots of practical concerns I have about the program related to my physical illnesses.  Sitting in a hard chair for a long time causes me pain and causes my ascites to build quickly which causes problems with my abdomen (I have no abdominal wall and have pressure wounds from my internal organs and various inoperable tumors resting on the same spots).  At the same I can't walk far or stand for long periods of time due to the very same issues... .my diaphragm is affected by not having an abdominal wall and I run out of breath in about a minute.  Gravity is not my friend!  I am not a candidate for surgery due to other issues so it is a big mess and a big concern that I will have to figure out how to work around starting with how to get myself into the building.  Sorry for the details but I have been living in sort of a fantasy forgetting that there are reasons why I can't work, need to move positions, take meds to help with the ascites, etc.  So this recommendation has sort of knocked me upside the head in terms of the reality of my situation.  Writing it down helps me with remembering and accepting that have limitations.  Maybe I can figure something out when I go back and look at this.

My T talks about getting me to go out, whether it be shopping, going to a movie, a museum... .and I don't see how I can do this.  am I avoiding people and being a hermit because of PTSD or am I using my physical problems to avoid and just feeding the PTSD or am I being realistic?  Can't tell from here.  I for sure don't see how going to ACT therapy is going to change my situation.  As it is, my T tells me that I minimize or try to put a false positive spin on things.  Grrrr.

Okay, now lets move on to God.  Heh.  I have been in an existential crisis for a while now, wondering what is my purpose, who am I, how do I fit into the world, what was the purpose of my earlier life experiences?  If God 'gave' me these experiences because he thinks I can handle them I am calling BS.  I don't see him sitting up there keeping score or plotting what experience each person will have not really.  I used to think I chose the life I have so I could grow spiritually, but no more.  That makes no sense to me now.  

I keep thinking of a line I heard on that show Call the Midwife.  Something happened, something bad.  When asked why would God allow such a thing, the answer was God is not in the act, he is in the response.  That line has stuck with me for a couple of years now.  I think there is something there for me to hold on to but it seems just out of reach.  :)oes that line mean anything to you?  Is there substance to it?  I am not at all religious and can't tell if it holds up to the bible or not.  Is it a sound statement or just another fallacy that sounds good to me?

Other stuff:Okay, how does one talk about abuse they experienced without whining about it or using it as an excuse?  It seems to me that as soon as you start to say yes, I was abused and that is why I do ___, that you have moved into the territory of justifying and rationalizing bad behavior and not taking responsibility for who you are today.  I get confused.  I honestly do not know how to talk about my feelings surrounding the abuses in a healthy way.  What are the words to use?  Can someone give me an example?

Help.  All confused, sad, angry, scared and tired.  Not making a whole lot of sense either.

Thanks for reading my novel.

[Notwendy]

Harri- it is up to you- you know your limitations, but I wonder since the program is in a hospital, the staff would know how to work with your medical issues and help keep you comfortable. I also don't know if they have people sit for that long- they may take breaks or do some gentle exercises. They also probably know how to work with people with PTSD.

Your hesitations are understandable, but they may not be the obstacles you think they are. You could look into this further. It is probably not possible to know if it will benefit you- but if you are at a standstill in therapy- doing something different like this may bring different results.

There are also other potential benefits. If you tend to be isolated- this gets you out- among people- ( I assume it is a group ) - people who understand some of the things you are going through. You may not feel like getting out and doing things, but it isn't good to be isolated. This could be a stepping stone to getting out in the future. You are not alone with this tendency- we talk about self isolation in the 12 step ACA groups I attend. This is one reason for group meetings- it is a safe place to be with other people who understand.

I like the quote about God. God is a vast concept- one that perhaps we can not completely understand. However ,we humans do have choices and the capacity to do good in the world. When we do good things- we, in a way, act like God. One doesn't have to be religious to do good things. You can start there. Some people have set religious beliefs, and others may experience God in their own way- for some it may not be a god at all, but in goodness, love, generosity, charity both given and received. If you are interested in a religion, you can explore some to see if any of them fit you. Or you can explore spirituality in general. It's your choice.

I think talking about past abuse with a therapist is different from making excuses. A skilled therapist can lead someone to progress through this.  

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri! 

As always I thank you for being real. I never mind your bold questions and challenges as you explore and process. It cuts to the heart of the matter, this wrestling with 'what is' and 'what isn't' true. They are the deeper issues.

I guess in the end I would say that the hospital option is up to you and you get to make choices. In the doctor's office where I work, we have a lot of patients with work related injuries. Sometimes they are called to jury duty for example, and because of their injurues, they are not able to sit for that long. Returning to work is almost possible sometimes for them because they cannot sit or stand for long periods of time. So it is okay imho. It is also okay if you want to try it. One thing I have observed in my own life of late: there are times when it is darn easier if someone just makes the choice for me! Choices are wonderful except when I face one I don't want to chose about. 

(I've got to run to the bank before they close and will finish my thoughts layer.)

 
Wools

[Fie]

Dear Harri !


Although I bet you are really worried about your physical limitations, I think it might also be possible that you 'use' them as an 'excuse' (sounds more negative then intended) because this new therapy is frightening you. Could that be correct ?

It would frighten me, too. New things are always scary. And we are not talking about going for a walk here. This is serious stuff.

You have made a lot of progress with your T. She knows you very well. Do you remember how frightened you were before you met her ? That she was going to be a woman ? Yet, you dealt with that well. I remember feeling proud of you.

Do you think your T would make this suggestion if she thought you were not up to it ?

Notwendy has a good point when she says that it would be taking away your isolation a bit. Maybe at one point in your progress you'd want to work on that anyway. So why not going for a new therapy that might benefit you, and meet a few new people in a controlled environment along the way - without pushing yourself to go out and meet people ?

Would it be an option to do enquiries about your concerns ? Is this hospital very far away ? Could you go visit it, just to see how everything is there ?  Maybe your therapist would want to accompany you ?

You could also ask them if you can leave the program when you want out ?

Would you be there with people who are having the same issues as you ?

Please don't worry about BPD and PTSD being the same. Of course there can be a cooccurrence. But BPD is a character disorder. 

I honestly do not know how to talk about my feelings surrounding the abuses in a healthy way. 

How do you *want* to talk about it ?

[Harri]

Hi Notwendy, thanks for joining in on my thread.   Between you and Wools (always happy to have you too!) I feel validated and I feel like you both smacked me a bit with reality but in a good way!  Of course I should ask and I am sure they are used to dealing with people with physical limitations! 

Wools, what you said about wanting to be told what to choose is exactly what I want.  I don't want to make this choice.  I also don't want to need help or be 'sick' or different or damaged.  But I am.  I want someone to tell me this ACT therapy will work and I will be able to put down my defenses in a group setting and that I will be able to open up in individual daily sessions with someone I do not know even tho I haven't really been able to do that with my T who I have been with for about 6-7 months... .and on and on come all the worries.  The anxiety... .  You know I have this weird thing with commitment.  When I promise something or say i will do something it is no longer a choice for me.  Maybe it is the rebel in me (damn you and your therapy!) or the fear of having to say "I can't do this" (what?  Says who?  me?  I'm saying that without even trying?   Errrrmmmm... .yeah as I walk away hanging my head in shame and feeling defeated.) 

I don't even know what to say to all that.   

Notwendy, thanks for the real talk about the benefits of groups.  Yes, the program is mostly group with some intensive individual tx thrown in daily.  I worry that I will become attached to the people though.  It does not seem to be a great place to make friends yet that is the first place my mind went when talking about this with my T.  She did say they do not recommend making friends or attachments in group.  Sure we share a similar experience and diagnosis but we are not healthy.  Are you friendly with people in your group?  I guess it is a boundary thing.  How do you manage that or is it not an issue?

Wools, you see things in me that I do not see at all, and I thank you for sharing that.  What you call bold I always thought of as rude and brash.  I've learned that in real life at least, not everyone likes my style.  perhaps I am an acquired taste?  haha  Back to the point though... .rude and brash ... .maybe sometimes yes, but not always.     Thanks for giving me alternate words to try out!  Harri the Bold. Bold Harri. Harribold.  Hmmm

About talking about the abuse... .I realized I keep trying to figure things out on my own rather than asking for help.  It is not a matter of pride or anything like that, not this time at least.  I never occurred to me to ask my T.  Instead I sit there not knowing how to speak or how to describe things.  I have always been careful of the words I use to describe my feelings.  I did some research on ACT and part of acceptance is labeling your experience with less high-emotional language.  It confuses me.  I already do that and have been told I am in denial or that I am minimizing!  Part of the reason I am in such a rut now is that I dropped most of the thoughts that I used to hide behind.  I gave up the belief that I had purpose and meaning and that what I experienced was something I chose and was part of my spiritual journey.  Gone.  I did not talk much about my physical problems and I still don't but I do it more that I did when posting here.  It is like I am experimenting.  I type the words and try to image you all reading my words.  Do my words causes sighs of frustration?  Do you roll your eyes?  Even worse, do you feel bad for me?  No!  What words and tone to use so it is not a pity party.  Yes, I am *still* struggling with this.  I was/am a victim.  So what?  Outside of working on myself what value is there in sharing it?  I do not want to be an inspiration.  The last time I talked about it I was telling my ex roommate and I used my story as a means to get her to shut up and stop telling me she had a rough life and as a means of saying so what?  What you are doing about it now?  Why are you still letting that define you.  and I have no right to say those things or ask those things because when i do so I am using my experiences as a shield and hiding from the fact that I too am a victim and worse yet, I can't stand seeing what is in you because it is in me too.

So Harri, how long are you going to remain prideful and stubborn, hiding behind your fears and your past, allowing it to paralyze you and wallow in either denial or victimhood?  Get over yourself Harri.  You are no different than anyone else who was abused.  You are not less than nor are you more than.

[Harri]

Hi Fie!   

Yes, I think I use my disabilities as an excuse to not do things I am scared of or unfamiliar with.  I think your suggestion to check out the building is a great idea.  I know what things I can and can not do when it comes to familiar stuff and do not hesitate to act when I can or want to even if I feel anxious.  Regardless, checking out the building and getting more info will make it almost impossible for me to hide behind the physical stuff and will help with my anxiety too.  I think you are right about meeting people in a controlled environment too.  Like I said in my previous post, I do not think I should look within the group for an IRL friend but it will certainly be okay in a very structured environment.  I assume the people in the group will have the same diagnosis but I wonder if they will include people with the same behaviors?  I keep imagining myself in a room full of pwBPD and those with paranoid delusions.  No fun!  I get angry and ready for a fight just thinking about it.  Bring it on... .  pffft!  Who am I kidding?  Run baby run!

Thanks for reminding me of some of the challenges I have already faced.  That makes me feel better so thank you my friend and thanks for feeling proud for me!  I sometimes wonder if my holding back now is still related to her being a woman though.  I haven't really delved into the incest with her.  I've talked about it.  LOL  I experimented with that too, starting off with talking around it, then throwing out one or two words about it but mostly I was avoiding.  Now it is just surface stuff when I do mention it.  How deep do you have to go though?  Not just with the incest but other stuff too? 

I do trust her to take care of me and to be respectful with my history.  She challenges me, listens to me and obviously cares.  I like her a lot.  I still miss my old T very much though. 

You asked how i want to talk about it.
I want to be honest, straightforward, to be able to speak without shame and without sounding like I am having a pity party... .

Son of a B*tch!  I just realized that all this crap about I don't know how to talk about it is so I can avoid talking about it!  Damn!  Seriously, right after typing the y in party in the above paragraph is when it hit me.

Damn I'm slow to catch on ... .and I'm darn good at avoiding!

Thanks Fie, Notwendy and Wools!  Wouldn't have figured it out without you. 

<walks away grumbling... .>

[Woolspinner2000]

I'm back again, Harri the Bold, 

Yes, I made it to the bank in time (barely).

I remember a post when you talked about an umbrella, and that you were able to finally sit there with your words and feelings. What a big step that was! This too is another step. Do you remember when I told you that I had this huge fear when suddenly all the foundation I had built my life upon was gone and there was nothing there to support me? Your post reminds me of that. You are slowly rebuilding upon a healthier foundation. Gone is much of the old. Now you have new materials with which to build your 'house:' physical issues, abusive past, resilience, survival, tenacity, fear,... .what else would you add that is a part of your new construction? They are all a part of who you are, and also who I am, and who many of us are here at the site. We are uniquely us, individuals.

Another way I like to look at it especially since my name is 'Wools'  relates to a weaving. All the textures of the yarns and threads that hold the design together are a part of the whole. There are bumps and thin spots, nothing perfect, but there is color, lots of it! Some areas there is no sunshine because I didn't get to chose the materials for that part. Someone else did. Now I get to choose (there's that darn word again!) what I want to incorporate into the design. Do I want to add in new colors that I've never used before? What if they change how it looks? Will it make the design wrong or messed up? No, it just makes it more unique. Experiment, play with color!

And now to your question about God. I thought about it while I was out running my errands, how would I respond? What do I think about that quote? Hmm... .

If God 'gave' me these experiences because he thinks I can handle them I am calling BS.  I don't see him sitting up there keeping score or plotting what experience each person will have not really.

If anyone tries to tell me that God was responsible for my abuse or anyone's abuse, I'll tell them they don't understand who God is. I am a person of very deep faith, and sometimes I have wondered where God was when my uBPDm was abusing me. He was not a part of the abuse. Was He there and did He allow it? Yes, and that goes to a deeper question of free will-my mom chose to do what she did. I think that He was there crying with me, seeing the abuse and making note of it. He is the ultimate judge and will make all things right someday, that is my hope and belief. All of these things have been and are a part of me, like the illustration I gave before. The T is helping me to look at my life with new eyes, not only to understand, but to chose a better way than the past. Now I am strong enough to stand up against others who try to do the same thing to me again. I am choosing the way to respond now, and I react much less with the pattern of the past. There are often new discoveries that trigger (PTSD anyone?) but I work through them quicker and better than before. They still stink, but as Pete Walker says, they give us opportunities to work through what we have not been able to yet.

 
Wools

[Fie]

I keep imagining myself in a room full of pwBPD and those with paranoid delusions. 

Aaargh. I agree, that wouldn't be the best situation ! :-)  But when you feel bad you can always post here !

Sure we share a similar experience and diagnosis but we are not healthy.

Not so fast Harribold ! I don't think that's very accurate.
I do understand why your therapist is saying that therapy groups are not really a phishing pound for friendships. I remember having read on these boards that they don't advise that board members would meet in a romantic way, since a lot of us have similar dynamics and have to find ways to cope with that first. I think that might be what your therapist means : the therapy group would consist of a lot of people with PTSD if I understood well. And you will have met and will have talked about a lot around PTSD. That will be your common ground.
I have a dysfunctional FOO. If I go horseriding and I meet someone at the stable, horses will be our common ground. Not our dysfunctional FOO. Maybe my horseriding friend will one day confide in me that her FOO was dysfunctional. We will have a new common ground but if you ask me, this will not be the main thing that binds us : the horses will be.

How deep do you have to go though?  Not just with the incest but other stuff too?

That is entirely up to you of course... .But incest and 'other stuff' is some crazy sh... .So if you ask 'how deep do you have to go', I'd say : as deep as you personally can. Because that's why you are paying your T, right ?

So Harri, how long are you going to remain prideful and stubborn, hiding behind your fears and your past, allowing it to paralyze you and wallow in either denial or victimhood?  Get over yourself Harri.  You are no different than anyone else who was abused.  You are not less than nor are you more than.

I don't think you are wallowing in victimhood at all. Why do you say that ? I by no means see any pity party you are so referring to. Give yourself a break Harri. You are here because you were abused. The exact purpose is that you talk about it, as much and as deep as you personally want.

Why are you still letting that define you.  and I have no right to say those things or ask those things because when i do so I am using my experiences as a shield and hiding from the fact that I too am a victim and worse yet, I can't stand seeing what is in you because it is in me too.

Of course it is still defining you. All of our pasts are still defining us, and I bet we all wish they didn't. Why do you beat yourself up for something that is so human ? Harri, you have healed a lot and you will heal even a lot more. But you will always somehow be defined by what you lived when you were young. You cannot take another head and use that one in stead of your own. Your memories will always be there, you will only learn to cope with them better.

I don't think you were using your past as a shield towards your ex roommate. Your roommate behaved in a horrible way. If it were me, I would have told her a lot more than you did. You had every right to tell her what you did, and next time please upgrade.

Do my words causes sighs of frustration?  Do you roll your eyes?

No and no. Of course not. If our eyes would roll, why would these boards be here ?

xxx

[Fie]

How are you Harri ?

Of course it is still defining you. All of our pasts are still defining us,

English is not my native language, and  I'm not too sure if I expressed what I really meant, here. What I mean is that our past defines how we relate to the world oftentimes. How we think. Not who we are. Slight but essential difference

[Notwendy]

Harri- I am friendly with some of the people in my group and not others. I am really cautious about this- and know that people with all kinds of issues show up at these things as well as people who are emotionally healthy enough to work on their issues.

I was really anxious and didn't know what to expect. I don't have an issue with drug or alcohol addiction and knew that 12 step groups dealt with that and didn't know what it would be like to meet drug addicts or alcoholics. Many of the people there- I could not pick out of a crowd as different- some were educated professionals and others were clearly struggling with serious issues. I also learned through meeting them that all kinds of addictions and issues have similar dynamics and that the people in the groups can have similar things to work on, regardless of whether it is drugs/alcohol or relationships. Many came from dysfunctional families.

Some were some of the more emotionally healthy people I have met- not because they don't have issues to work on, but because they have the self awareness and motivation to work on them. The scarier people out there (IMHO) have issues and are not aware of them and don't have the motivation to work on them.

That said, the group ( and I am sure the hospital group as well) emphasizes anonymity and nobody is pushed to socialize outside the group. I do keep my own home and personal life separate but over time, I have gotten to know some people. Others, I would not want to be acquainted with.  

It takes time to build good boundaries and so I would be very cautious about forming attachments at the beginning, but just like any friendships- they might develop over time. I think proceeding slowly is a good way to allow yourself time to get to know other people. Yet, I don't think we should be so closed off as to not allow any one to get to know us. We may make a mistake- but again, with boundaries, if we recognize someone is not a good match for friendship- it is OK to let that go.

It is not possible to predict if your therapy will work or not. I do believe that all therapy involves some personal work. Something may not seem to "fit" you exactly but the work can bring benefits anyway. Dysfunctional families can share similar patterns even if the dysfunctions are different. The only way to know is to try- but if what you are doing now isn't working like you want it to, then trying something else might.

[Kwamina]

Hi Harribold  

How are things now? How are you currently feeling about your therapy and the direction you would like to take?

Did you perhaps discuss your concerns with your T about ACT since starting this thread?

The Board Parrot

[strength_love]

A few thoughts came to mind when I was reading through this thread.

Some of the ways abuse and digging into the past have been described here echo a bit of what I was told throughout my life whenever I tried to discuss the abuse I experienced in my life. In my opinion judgments like, "Wallowing" "making excuses" "self-pity" etc. are just ways in which we are taught to sit down and shut up about abuse. It's a doctrine we're taught early and often, and ensures the status quo will stay intact because it intimidates and guilts abuse sufferers into silence. It ensures the cycle of abuse will continue from generation to generation, and those who perpetrate abuse will never be brought to justice.

The irony is that the exact opposite is true. It takes a lot of bravery and personal responsibility to process abuse we've experienced, and in fact all of those claims about excuse-making and self-pity are in and of themselves ways to avoid the extremely difficult work of processing and addressing abuse - or else prevent others from taking on such work. It really is so ironic when you think about it.

Everything we've been taught to believe about digging into the past is a lie. We are taught it is a sign of weakness when it's a sign of strength and courage. We are taught it's self-indulgent when in fact it's a form of self-accountability. We are taught it's an excuse to wallow when in fact this work enables us to let go and move on. We are taught it is about looking back when it's actually about moving forward.

I have spent a lot of time in therapy and I do a lot of journaling and other practices to process the abuse I experienced, and it is that work which has enabled me to become a better, stronger, more accountable and self-aware person.

I view that work as detective work, digging through my experiences to answer the big question, "How did I get so far from where I want to be in life?"

I have learned SO MUCH through my work in therapy and personal development, through my writing and other ways of processing the abuse. For one thing, I have corrected the false narratives I was taught about my life and about who I am as a person. I now understand what really happened and why, and I now know who I really am and why I was lied to about who I am (I was told I was a terrible person as a means of controlling me and making me compliant).

I have unlearned and rewritten a lot of the false messages that have been playing in my head throughout my life. Such abusive messages as "You'll never amount to anything" "You are a worthless #$&*" and "Who do you think you are?" have now been transformed to "I can achieve what I put my effort toward" and "I am worthy" and "I have the power to change my world, that's who I think I am." 

I cannot possibly overstate the transformational power of doing this work.

“Courage doesn’t happen when you have all the answers. It happens when you are ready to face the questions you have been avoiding your whole life.”
― Shannon L. Alder

When you expressed confusion how to discuss abuse - "I was abused and that is why I do ___" - I would say that your discomfort is probably due to the fact that you haven't actually got the full statement here. The complete statement from someone who is working on healing from abuse would read, "I was abused and that is why I do ___. In order to heal I will need to do ____." For example, "I was abused and that's why I have difficulty controlling my anger. In order to heal I will need to address the roots of that anger and work through it."

And maybe the person in that example might learn through therapy that their father used intimidation, anger and control to force others to do what he wanted, and they learned those same methods from him. Through therapy they can process what it felt like to be intimidated and controlled in that way, and learn new, better ways of dealing with conflict.

As you can see, it is not a means of excuse-making when you actually DO the work. When you do the work, it becomes a means of taking personal responsibility.

On the question of PTSD and BPD being similar, my answer is a firm no. The two disorders are very different in their causes, symptoms and treatments and they shouldn't be mixed up or thrown in the same category.

As for god, that is an interesting question. I grew up in a very religious family and fervently believed in god and the bible from a very early age. When I got to around 11 years old the questions nagging at my mind ("Why does god let them abuse me?" ":)oes god hate me and that's why he lets this happen?" turned into anger ("God is a jerk for letting this happen!". I would actually make rude gestures at the sky and tell god off when I was feeling particularly upset, and when I did this I genuinely thought I would be struck by lightning or something.

Of course, I wasn't struck by lightning. Nothing happened. And I gradually came to realize there was a simpler answer to all of this - god doesn't actually exist. When I came to that realization everything snapped into place in my mind and made so much sense. It was hugely liberating and paradoxically made me SO HAPPY. It was such a relief to let go of the burden of the notion that there was a loving god who for some reason wanted me to suffer.

Epicurus, a Greek philosopher who lived from 341 BC – 270 BC wrote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

To me those questions are essential for the understanding of the 'god' dilemma, particularly for people who suffer senseless tragedies or abuse.

Through the course of my life I have studied all of the major religions and philosophies, searching for meaning and for tools to help me understand and deal with life. I found most of my biggest help came through Zen Buddhist philosophy, which says that we have the power to end our own suffering through living honestly, responsibly and with compassion and accountability.

I think there is a lot that we can learn from great thinkers who came before us, but I think we should resist and reject any doctrine that disempowers us or seeks to diminish, shame, isolate or terrorize us into adhering to its principles. That is one of the many reasons I continue to reject theistic beliefs, but to each his/her own.

[Harri]

Hi.  I have no good reason for not getting back to this thread earlier.  It's been the same old avoidance, illness and apathy.  Sorry folks.

Wools, I do remember when you shared your struggle with rebuilding your foundation and I remember admiring your tenacity.  It is so disorienting isn't it?  You asked what else is part of my new construction.  I would say stubbornness (my T prefers the term determination   )  and yes, strength.  It is slowly sinking in even more deeply that things really were bad.  I can feel glimmers of genuine admiration for my younger self for getting through it all with most of my marbles intact.  It seems the barrier of "I am special" is really coming down for me and I can appreciate and even admire in myself what I appreciate and admire in the people who post here on this board.  It really is remarkable that we have come to be the people we are with strengths and flaws just like everyone else.

Wools, I really like your weaving analogy.  Varying shades and different colors and textures all coming together to make something unique and beautiful... .and of our choosing.  Yes.  What else are we to do with it all?  Continue with the same old way of being?  Hell no!

I have had to sit a lot with the God business.  I agree that free will is the deeper issue and it makes sense that he would not limit the free will of one person in favor of another.  Not that he condones or rewards certain behaviors over others or even punishes but allows us to be who we are (at least that is where I am with all of this now.  A rudimentary understanding perhaps, but it fits with some other things I have wondered about like the saying "you deserve ___" or "you don't deserve ___".  What the heck does that all mean?)  Okay, I digress and I am not explaining myself well.  Ooops.  Thank you Wools.

Fie, first, your English is just fine.  You were not too harsh at all so no worries there.  I do better with straightforward / direct.   Subtle and soft usually leaves me confused and scratching my head.   

I really like what you said about how our past does indeed still define us in terms of how we interact in the world.  It makes sense and I feel a huge relief in that I do not have to struggle trying to negate my past.  I can't ever make it disappear or have no influence and I am not sure I want to anymore.  It was what it was, but does not have to be what is.  Thank you Fie.

Notwendy. 

Some were some of the more emotionally healthy people I have met- not because they don't have issues to work on, but because they have the self awareness and motivation to work on them. The scarier people out there (IMHO) have issues and are not aware of them and don't have the motivation to work on them.

Very well said and I agree.  I am reminded of my former roommate.  She was aware of her past and the issues she has now, but rather than work on them she did allow her past to be what is when she sort of wrapped herself in the abuse and used it as an excuse.  Seeing how that so obviously manifested in her makes it easier to see how in the past I have done the same with certain things.  Awareness is not worth much without the motivation to change.

Going to respond to Kwamina and strength_love in a second post.  Don't want to lost this reply!  Thanks.

[zachira]

There are many different kinds of therapy models and treatments. It is natural not to want to talk about painful things, especially if it seems to make things worse. Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS) is especially sensitive to clients being uncomfortable talking about painful feelings and events, and increases well being by integrating all parts of the self. Bessel Van Der Kolk, Janina Fischer, Pat Ogden, and Babette Rothschild are all experts on the different methods for treating traumatic life experiences that are difficult to talk about. I admire your courage.

[Harri]

Kwamina!  Hello.  How are you?

Things are better.  I feel lighter and more connected.  I did talk about my concerns with my T and she was able to reassure me about a lot of things and sought out answers on the things she did not know.  For now, things are on hold.  Two reasons for that:
  1) changes in my insurance makes the daily co-pay almost impossible at this time.  I would have to use a credit card and since I can't afford a higher credit payment every month I am not going to do it at this time.  
  2) I started talking in T.  Specifically about the incest and more abusive aspects of my childhood.  Apparently the "threat" of group therapy is all I needed to bust down some barriers!  Haha, not really but that makes me smile... .My new superhero motto is 'Oh Hell No'!  

Seriously, aside from the cost issue, I am more open in therapy.  My T has been beyond patient with me as I have struggled with accepting how serious the abuse was.  She has helped me see things more clearly and to put down a lot of the shame and blame that was never mine to begin with.  Endlessly explaining things to me and reacting to things I have held in out of fear and shame in an accepting way while correcting and redirecting me to new ways of thinking has helped in this whole process.

Thankfully when I talked about the sexual abuse she did not go all soft and horrified on me.  I should specify that I did not talk about the sexual abuse I experienced but that of my brother's.  I generally do not talk about it as I feel it is not my story to tell and I know i need to talk about my abuse but right now my brother is serving as a window of insight into myself.

My T has spent a lot of time working with me on not seeing myself as crazy and damaged beyond repair.  I am getting there but only after looking at how well my brother has done for himself.  Again, he serves as a window... .or maybe a buffer.  Yeah, we are damaged, how could we not be, but overall we are decent, kind, moral, smart people.

Last week I was talking about the sleeping arrangements in the house growing up.  My mother refused to sleep with my dad after finding out he had cheated on her and 'stole' money from my g-pa (he was executor and was in charge of expenses and took a lot of money).  So my mom held trial on my dad with my bro and I as witnesses, detailed his crimes and doled out punishment in the form of refusing to sleep with my father and upping the hostility, humiliation and raging against my dad all in an effort to teach my brother and I that we can't treat people (specifically her) that way.  That anger and hostility spilled over into my brother and I as well.  No one was safe.  She never forgave him and they never  got together and even tho they  remained married.  The hatred and rage was inescapable.  Screaming and yelling in the middle of the night, the look of hatred and contempt... .no way to escape the tension in that house.

So anyway, she then slept on the couch (small house with open concept) and sometimes put the cushions on the floor and slept in the middle of the living room floor (I found this out after tripping over her in the dark and heard her screaming and cursing at me for not being considerate).  Other times (whenever she thought the demon of my dead g-pa was after her)  she would sleep on the bathroom floor.  I would only know this when I got up to go to the bathroom and whacked her with the door... .again screaming and cursing would ensue.

So anyway, she eventually moved into the basement to punish me for something.  Eventually she began to get sick and decided she wanted to share my bedroom.  I refused.  she raged.  My father begged.  My brother offered her his room.  SHE TOOK IT FROM HIM!.  He then spent the next 8 years sleeping on the floor in my dads room or with her in 'her' bed.

I always felt sad when thinking about that memory but in T, I heard myself saying I felt so guilty and how it was my fault they were sleeping together and she sexually abused him too.  The guilt was news to me.  I still don't *feel* guilt consciously but I am now incredibly angry that my mother actually took my brothers room from him!  He was all of 11 or 12.  I think of my nephew who is 10 and can't even imagine it!  And to sleep with him and use him as her 'man'?  I want to throw up.  

So I sat there hearing the word guilt rattle around in the otherwise vast emptiness of my dissociated brain and saw my hands trembling violently and watched as I scratched a hole in my hand without feeling a thing.  never did that sort of SI before (just binge eating).  Interesting experience.  It happened so quickly that neither my T nor I noticed until I was bleeding a bit (not deep, mostly surface but still it was sobering and took me totally by surprise)  My T insisted on bandaging me up and **I allowed her to do it**.  I allowed her to take my hand and put a bandaid on me.  Progress shows in some of the most unexpected ways and is often surrounded by dysfunctional behavior.  Who knew.

So i feel like I made a break through and even though I am in a darker place I feel lighter and more carefree in some ways.  I found my voice and figured out a way to talk about my experience and how my brothers abuse affected me as well.  I have more work to do on this, but i am pleased with the breakthrough.  No minimizing here.

Who the hell does that to their kids?  What mother takes from their child?  What father allows that to be done and not just allows it but sits around crying and feeling sorry for himself while the kids deal with it and do their best to take care of their abuser?  Who the f*ck does that?  My parents, that's who.

Thanks for asking Kwamina and sorry for the long regurgitation of the past... .but it felt too good to stop.  

Strength_love, hello!  Thanks for joining in and adding your voice.  You hit the nail on the head about me carrying out the abuse of my past in the way I talk about my experiences.  I have made progress in this area but still have a lot of work to do.  Thank for the reminder that how I talk about the abuse just repeats the cycle and keeps me trapped in the past by allowing me to avoid addressing tough issues.  Everything you wrote rings true and I hope i will remember to refer to it to help fight through the guilt and avoidance.  Thank you.

I find your thoughts on god, or more accurately that he does not exist, very interesting.  I agree with your stance of to each his own and do not reject your beliefs.    I understand and actually share your belief that we have the power to stop our suffering though I am still in the newbie stages of being able to apply this in my life.  I do wonder though what you use to anchor yourself to the world.  What do you see as your purpose for existing?  I don't see god as a giver or a punisher but I do see him as a creator.  Beyond that?  I am still working on it.

Thanks again for joining in on this.

[strength_love]

My T has been beyond patient with me as I have struggled with accepting how serious the abuse was.

There is a concept my therapist and I have discussed a lot - "Abuse Amnesia." It is apparently a well-documented and common phenomenon. Basically when we are violated or hurt in any way our brains have a tendency to suppress the full brunt of those experiences. It's a way of coping with what might otherwise be too overwhelming for someone to bear.

The problem with that is, not only does the amnesia ensure we will fail to understand the full scope of the abuse we've experienced, we also fail to understand the full scope of the threat we face from the abusers in our lives. It's why we keep going back and back into relationships that have been abusive. Because we genuinely don't realize how bad they've been.

I find your thoughts on god, or more accurately that he does not exist, very interesting.  I agree with your stance of to each his own and do not reject your beliefs.    I understand and actually share your belief that we have the power to stop our suffering though I am still in the newbie stages of being able to apply this in my life.  I do wonder though what you use to anchor yourself to the world.  What do you see as your purpose for existing? 

I am an existentialist. I don't believe that life has any inherent meaning. We are creatures of the earth just like all living things. We live, we die. If we humans want meaning in our lives, we must create it ourselves.

Too often meaning is taught to us, and we don't get the opportunity to discover for ourselves what our own meaning might be. Few people are ever encouraged to find/create their own Selves or find/create their own meaning in life. Meaning just ends up being something we pick up through an accident of geography and social environment depending on where we are born.

I guess most people seem fairly contented with that - with basically inheriting all their values, beliefs and attitudes from their family and community - but I never have been. I feel fortunate, really, that my life experience pushed me to question everything around me fairly constantly from a very early age. It led me to discover so many absurdities and inconsistencies in what people teach about life and about the existence of a god or gods. It led me to dig deeper into the world's religions and philosophies and come to what was for me a much broader understanding of human nature and the human experience than I would have had if I stayed in the bubble I was born into.

I won't go too deep into my views on theistic religious institutions and beliefs, but I will say that I think one of the core failings of humanity is an inability to live with uncertainty. People simply want answers, even when answers aren't available or clear. In the absence of real answers, people will invent explanations of their own or else cling to explanations they are taught (regardless of how flimsy those explanations are) rather than live in uncertainty.

That's never been much of a problem for me. I am perfectly fine not having the answers to every question. Where possible I will investigate but if I don't find a satisfactory, evidence-based result I don't sweat it. I think a huge part of what makes life exciting is the fact that we live in a frontier that is largely unexplored, largely unknown. I am at peace with the fact that I know very little about what's really happening in the world, despite my thirst for and active pursuit of knowledge.

So to answer your question about what I use to anchor myself to the world I guess I would say that I am anchored to the world by my own existence within it. This is where I was born, this is where I live, this is where I will die. If I want meaning in my life - and I do want meaning - I know I must find it and create it for myself. I have focused my life on doing just that.

My family is very religious and, like everything else they close themselves off from and fail to understand, they find atheism terrifying and extremely threatening. When my dear aunt died years ago I got into a conversation with my cousin about religion as it applies to life and death. She asked me, "Where do you think my mother is if she is not in heaven?"

I told her that I believe that when we die we live on in the hearts and minds of those who we touched. We live on in the deeds we did during our lifetime, and in the impact we had on the world. That is why it is so critical for us to strive to live meaningful lives that enrich others and make the world a better place for everyone - not just ourselves or those close to us. Our lives become our legacy.

The people we touch - whether through deep connections or fleeting chance encounters - take from those experiences some piece of what we brought them, and pass some of that along to others. This is what becomes of us - this is why everything we do, say and think is precious and important, and why human compassion and personal responsibility and integrity are so important.

Often I find that people who believe they are going to live forever in some idyllic place beyond the here and now, they fail to invest fully in making the most of this life we have. They fail to invest in making this world a better place that will endure beyond their lifetime. Sustainability isn't something they spend much time worrying about because they believe this is all 'material' and therefore unimportant in the grand scheme of things. I find that really tragic.

I notice you have a Viktor Frankl quote on your signature. He is one of my greatest heroes. So many of his ideas and values are deeply aligned with my own. His theory of Logotherapy - the notion that people can be healed through finding meaning in their experiences and their lives - is very close to my heart. One of my favourite quotes from his reads, "What is to give light must endure burning." This is at the core of the meaning I have found in my own life. It is why I am OK with uncertainty. It's why I accept my suffering and the suffering of the world, even as I work to change it.

[Harri]

Hi Zachira and thanks for your kindness and for joining in here.  I have been reading about IFS since you posted and find the information very interesting.  I will talk with my T about it too.  I wouldn't be surprised if she is using parts of it at times in our sessions.  She uses a mish mash of different styles with me depending on what we are discussing and how I am feeling. 

strength_love, we share a lot of common beliefs.  What you see as our purpose (leaving the world a better place, etc) I call responsibility.  I don't follow religion though I was raised Catholic.  I found it (religion) too limiting of both myself and of God.  One big reason for me to reject any form of organized religion was the fact that my mother so strictly followed hers, at least when it suited her and her needs.  Not surprisingly, she twisted things around and used religion as a weapon, praying for her will to be done and using bible verses to try to control me in addition to having her friends come over to ambush me and pray over me to cast out demons and throwing holy water at me when i walked by.  So i don't have much use for organized religion, rituals and stifling doctrine especially when used as a means to abuse, manipulate, and reject others who have different beliefs. 

I told her that I believe that when we die we live on in the hearts and minds of those who we touched. We live on in the deeds we did during our lifetime, and in the impact we had on the world. That is why it is so critical for us to strive to live meaningful lives that enrich others and make the world a better place for everyone - not just ourselves or those close to us. Our lives become our legacy.

This is quite beautiful really and can apply to everyone regardless of whether a person believes that God exists.  Thank you for sharing that.  I have been so confused as I have put down false beliefs I clung to and then tried to make sense of it all.  I have been too confused to make sense of what my beliefs are.  You and others who have responded here regarding their beliefs have helped give me direction.  I don't follow a particular religion but I do believe in the existence of God.  As I said before I see him as creator... .and I am figuring out the rest.  I don't think we are too different in our beliefs.

I have been reading (and reading and reading) man's search for meaning for a while now.  Over and over as I have been so blocked on this issue of meaning.  The only thing i have known for sure is that I get to define what happens in my life.  The thing is, I have had to breakdown barriers of denial, minimizing, and false beliefs about myself and my life.  It happened very suddenly and all at once for me a little over a year ago.  I have been unsteady and rebuilding slowly.  Denial and minimization are slippery and tricky things to deal with.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Kwamina]

Hiya Harri

Yeah I've been alright. Well not really alright but still trucking. My beloved aunt passed away recently and very unexpectedly which was and is very tough so... .but life goes on... .slowly.

I generally do not talk about it as I feel it is not my story to tell and I know i need to talk about my abuse but right now my brother is serving as a window of insight into myself.

It's sad your brother was also sexually abused by your mother. This also impacts you and your brother being abused is something I also consider part of your story. Just as you being abused is also part of your brother's life story. I think the two really cannot be completely separated so it makes sense to me to also discuss what happened to your brother in your therapy sessions.

Yeah, we are damaged, how could we not be, but overall we are decent, kind, moral, smart people.

That indeed is the Harri I have seen on this board since day 1  You've guided many of our members through the storms raging in their lives, just by being there and being you

My mother refused to sleep with my dad after finding out he had cheated on her and 'stole' money from my g-pa (he was executor and was in charge of expenses and took a lot of money).

Do you believe it's true that your dad cheated on your mom? Did your dad admit it? How did hearing about your dad cheating make you feel at the time?

So anyway, she then slept on the couch (small house with open concept) and sometimes put the cushions on the floor and slept in the middle of the living room floor (I found this out after tripping over her in the dark and heard her screaming and cursing at me for not being considerate).  Other times (whenever she thought the demon of my dead g-pa was after her)  she would sleep on the bathroom floor.  I would only know this when I got up to go to the bathroom and whacked her with the door... .again screaming and cursing would ensue.

Ok, the screaming and cursing was horrible of course, especially for you as a child. After reading this though, I got a mental picture in my mind of you whacking her with the door and well there's also some humor in there

My brother offered her his room.  SHE TOOK IT FROM HIM!.  He then spent the next 8 years sleeping on the floor in my dads room or with her in 'her' bed.

I always felt sad when thinking about that memory but in T, I heard myself saying I felt so guilty and how it was my fault they were sleeping together and she sexually abused him too.  The guilt was news to me.  I still don't *feel* guilt consciously but I am now incredibly angry that my mother actually took my brothers room from him!

I can understand how an experience like this would cause you to feel a sense of guilt even when you weren't really conscious of it. Knowing the horrible things your brother experienced, I think it is normal that you would have wanted to prevent this from happening even though it totally was not your fault that it did happen to him. I think it is normal to feel guilt in this situation, not because you actually were guilty, but because guilt is about our own behavior and things we did or did not do. The guilt actually can give us a sense of control as if we as little children actually would have had the power to prevent all the abuse from happening. In a way I think that feeling guilty or assuming the mantle of guilt can also be an attempt of our mind to try and control the uncontrollable. How do you feel about this?

So I sat there hearing the word guilt rattle around in the otherwise vast emptiness of my dissociated brain and saw my hands trembling violently and watched as I scratched a hole in my hand without feeling a thing.  never did that sort of SI before (just binge eating).  Interesting experience.

Retelling stories of traumatic abuse can be very scary and trigger fears of rejection and by itself the retelling can also be quite traumatic (and also liberating) so that might explain your hands trembling so violently. Other than insisting on bandaging you up, did your T say anything else about you scratching a hole in your hand?

The Board Parrot

[Harri]

Hi Kwamina.  I am saddened to hear that your aunt passed.  It sounds like she was someone who offered you love and a soft place to land?  It hurts to think of your loss but I am glad you had someone like her to be with.  Care to share your favorite memory of her?

Re: my brother's story.  I agree that parts of our individual stories are in fact intertwined.  My brother is in complete denial of what he/we experienced.  Often his wife will make a subtle comment about how my brother can be, sort of hinting for an explanation.  He has anger issues and can get quite sullen and terse.  It hurts to be on the receiving end but it hurts more to know that his wife and my nephew have to deal with it and he is not even aware of what is driving his behaviors.  He is filled with anger and self-loathing.  When I have gently put out feelers to see if he is ready to talk or see things, the answer is a very clear no.  I am not going to mess with his defenses... .they are there for a reason.  I say nothing to my SIL about the abuse.  She knows how my mother treated me as an adult (by her own observations as she came into our lives around the time I 'left and betrayed my family' and has even commented on it, but I am quite sure she has no clue about how bad things really were, especially for my brother.  Most people don't get it as you know.  She has said a couple of times, when very frustrated "I don't care why he is doing this, I just ignore him".  That makes me so sad. 

Sorry for the detour into my brother.  He is a good guy and I love him dearly... .but also want to smack (not hard) him sometimes too!

My Dad never admitted to cheating on my mom and I can't imagine him having done so but only because I loathed him so much that I could not (and still can't) see how anyone would want to be with him.      I remember feeling angry and numb all at the same time.  I knew it was wrong for my mom to be talking about this with my brother and I and I remember also knowing that my dad was feeling humiliated.  But as he stood there crying, i felt what I think is despair that he just stood there and said nothing to stop it or to defend himself.  More confirmation that he could not be counted on to help my brother and me.  I can't find it in myself to feel sympathy for him, even now.

There is a ton of humor with me whacking my mom with the door and also with tripping over her.  The weird/funny part?  She still would place herself directly in the way of the door or in the middle of the floor.  I think it was to further set herself up as a martyr, as if we could ever forget her sacrifices for us <insert rolly eyeball emoticon here!>  Gee, do I sound scornful and angry?  You betcha!  No apologies will be made.

You explanation of my shaking hands makes sense.  I often think of so many with BPD or other illnesses who stop therapy, unable to face the past or their own guilt.  It is hard to let the process happen and to look back without the defenses.  Damn hard.

My T handled me scratching a hole in my hand the best possible way, for me at least.  Other than bandaging me, she did not make a big deal of it.  She did say that it happened so fast she was unable to stop me and I understand that.  It happened in about a second.  I joked with her that it is not like she let me scratch a crater in my hand.  When I asked if it is similar to SI that I read about she said sort of but did not label it so.  I think she purposely did not make a big deal out of it with me.  LOL  She has done that before... .mot making a big deal of things, stopping panic attacks with a simple firm but kind "stop it".  She knows too soft will make me run and too much attention will make me more anxious. 

Kwamina, thank you for your endless kindness and support, especially during this tough time.   

[Kwamina]

Thanks Harri

... .It sounds like she was someone who offered you love and a soft place to land?... .Care to share your favorite memory of her?

She did indeed offer me a lot of unconditional love and a soft place to land. There are many wonderful memories but I think the fact that I literally called her my second mother (fortunately not second BPD mother though!) says it all. A bond for the ages was broken here... .but the memories remain.

My brother is in complete denial of what he/we experienced... .When I have gently put out feelers to see if he is ready to talk or see things, the answer is a very clear no.  I am not going to mess with his defenses... .

It is horrible what your brother also experienced and sad that he's in denial and sometimes acting out, yet I of course also totally get how denial can serve as a coping mechanism when the pain is just to great. Maybe there will still come a time when he's more willing or able to address his own issues and the abuse he suffered. Just the though of stepping out of denial can be extremely frightening and anxiety inducing.

But as he stood there crying, i felt what I think is despair that he just stood there and said nothing to stop it or to defend himself.  More confirmation that he could not be counted on to help my brother and me.  I can't find it in myself to feel sympathy for him, even now.

It is indeed difficult to understand how it's possible that your dad let himself be treated this way. He clearly was dealing with some serious issues of his own to 'allow' this. Perhaps sympathy is not what is needed here, but more understanding or realizing just how damaged your father also must have been to act the way he did. The sad thing is how his behavior combined with your mother's behavior negatively impacted you and your brother.

[Harri]

Ah, a second chosen mother is very special indeed! 

I will continue to wait patiently until my brother is ready and if he never reaches that point, I still love and accept him.  I can't tell you how many times I consciously pushed away awareness that something was wrong over the years.  While I regret the time lost, it was the choice I made.  I wonder still what I am blocking out and in denial about today.  Like I said, denial is there for a reason.

My dad was so diminished by my mother that feeling the anger I have towards him has been hard.  Not because of sympathy but because he was so insignificant in my life in many ways yet his inability to defend himself or my brother and me, whether due to mental illness or poor character, has conversely had a huge impact on what happened. 

I will get there... .to the deep anger I sense and the understanding and acceptance.

Thanks Parrot!  Take good care of yourself.