Gas Lighting & emotional arguments.

[Depression = 72% of members]

Having had a long period of NC, and connecting back up with my BPDm, I am noticing so many things I never did before, mainly because I’ve learnt about Narcissistic techniques and know what to look for. The most obvious thing is my BPD is continually saying “No that’s not right.”  before this use to wind me up, because I thought she was lying just to kick off an argument. But now I see this is expertly laid gas lighting. But its a continual stream of it. You could spend all day arguing with her if you tried to correct it. Does anyone else notice gas lighting in their BPD and how do they do it ?

The other thing I notice is that I’m told I’m an excellent debtor using logic and evidence, but when people throw emotional argument in there, I’m dumb founded. I think I realise why now. How do you learn to deal with emotional arguments, because I automatically assume they’re like my BPD and front it out. In fact I even fronted out a guy with a knife once, tying to rob me, the wrong thing to do, but fronting out my NPD/BPD combo was the only way to avoid a serious kicking. I am not one for fighting at all, so I shudder when I consider who I have faced off in the past, but no one has ever called my bluff. I have since read, that if you are trapped with a psychopath, so have no escape, escalating higher than they go is your only defence. But of course, not everyone has a PD and not everyone with a PD is violent (my NPD was very violent). Any ideas ?

[HappyChappy]

Having had a long period of NC, and connecting back up with my BPDm, I am noticing so many things I never did before, mainly because I’ve learnt about Narcissistic techniques and know what to look for. The most obvious thing is my BPD is continually saying “No that’s not right.”  before this use to wind me up, because I thought she was lying just to kick off an argument. But now I see this is expertly laid gas lighting. But its a continual stream of it. You could spend all day arguing with her if you tried to correct it. Does anyone else notice gas lighting in their BPD and how do they do it ?

The other thing I notice is that I’m told I’m an excellent debtor using logic and evidence, but when people throw emotional argument in there, I’m dumb founded. I think I realise why now. How do you learn to deal with emotional arguments, because I automatically assume they’re like my BPD and front it out. In fact I even fronted out a guy with a knife once, tying to rob me, the wrong thing to do, but fronting out my NPD/BPD combo was the only way to avoid a serious kicking. I am not one for fighting at all, so I shudder when I consider who I have faced off in the past, but no one has ever called my bluff. I have since read, that if you are trapped with a psychopath, so have no escape, escalating higher than they go is your only defence. But of course, not everyone has a PD and not everyone with a PD is violent (my NPD was very violent). Any ideas ?

[Fie]

Hello HappyChappy !


Yes to both parts of your thread.

It's an easy way out : 'no that's not right'. Or another one : 'I never said that'.  I am very sensitive to this and I soo much dislike manipulation of any kind. I know we all do it, but of course some people use it to harm others and there really is my limit.
My boss did it today - 'I think you should not have done this', while it was exactly her who earlier in the morning had asked me to do this thing. Only because another boss didn't like what I did she quickly pretended she had nothing to do with it.

I so hate that and I had to really tell myself to stay calm and respond in a neutral way.

I really, really am allergic to the gaslighting / manipulation. Sometimes I have to tell myself that maybe in a particular situation I am seeing things that are not really there, because I know that I so dislike it that I maybe see it everywhere.


Yes to the second also. In the past I have found myself several times reacting quite heavily and helping people who are being harassed (in the metro, etc). I have always thought I did it because I wanted to help / I was empathic etc. Reading on these boards (there has been a similar topic) made me realize I might also have done it because I didn't care enough about myself - the person who was in danger was more important then me, who of course would become the next one in danger.  So I don't think I was doing it because I learned to defend myself against my parents (on the contrary, I was very obedient)

It's interesting though what you are saying about being trapped with a psychopath. When I was a kid I always had fantasies about psychopaths, and that if they wanted to harm me, I would be able to change their mind, talking to them (my dad is NPD, my mum BPD, I probably unconsciously wanted to change the dynamics and couldn't so I fantasized about a situation where I could conquer the worst : a psychopath). Do you really think that calling a psychopath's bluff is the best approach ?

xxx

[HappyChappy]

Hey Fie Fi-Fo Fum nice to see you again.

Do you really think that calling a psychopath's bluff is the best approach ?

Good point, calling their bluff is a gamble. The guy with the knife was known to me, so it more a calculated risk. But the “escalate higher” point came from research with people in captivity, such as prison, where there is a high percentage of psychopaths and you can not escape them. So it is fight or submit. The belief was to submit would lead to escalating abuse (e.g. don’t negotiate with terrorists). But bear in mind someone with a PD is not necessarily physically stronger than you, but if you don’t front it out psychologically their creeping abuse will control you eventually.

My NPD had Sadistic personality disorder so enjoyed seeing people in pain, hence I had no choice. When I first beat him in a fight, age 14, that was the last fight, outside of martial arts, I ever had.  He never touched me again, so there is a place for pretending you have no fear, and bluffing. To me Sadistic personality presents more danger than a psychopath, as the latter tend to be very charismatic so can get what they want using charm before violence. If someone is not articulate, they are more likely to use force as a way of getting their way, and my NPD was dysfunctional (not very articulate) and sadistic, a bad combination. Remember psychopaths and other PD are predatory and go for the weakest prey.  So again, bluff, show no fear.

I saw my BPD escalate higher than my NPD, their arguments would scorch the earth and  rage all day and even all week, as our BPD would never and I mean never, give in. My BPD once kicked a hole in every single door in the house, knowing they would serve as a reminder. So Fie in your NPD BPD combo, did your BPD wear the NPD down and win the long game ?

[madeline7]

Expertly laid gaslighting, and allergic to gaslighting.
These 2 sentences are so descriptive and clever.
I am actually allergic to all things BPD!
Have a happy Saturday!

[Fie]

So Fie in your NPD BPD combo, did your BPD wear the NPD down and win the long game ?

Good question !
My mum definitely always goth her way with my dad. He controlled her, but I think she controlled him more. It’s odd, I never really saw them fighting a lot. She merely scapegoated me, making trouble around me, not him.
Only after I let home my father once said that my mum was oftentimes angry with him, screamed and threatened to commit suicide. I was amazed, because until then I had always thought I was the one causing problems for my mum. Up till now I still don’t know if they fighted, while I was still living at home, or not. My therapist once said that she doesn’t think they didn’t, and that it’s strange I never really saw it.
Both of their PD’s are not extreme, though. My dad just always wants to control everything and always wants to be right. My mum likes fighting more, causing confusion in people, baiting. So I guess you are right…my BPD wins the long game.

How do you react upon the gaslighting of your mum ?

[HappyChappy]

How do you react upon the gaslighting of your mum ?

It use to wind me up, often I'd make a joke about it, challenging her was futile as you'd get "that's not what I meant". But now I know what and why she’s doing it, not so bothered unless I’m stressed. How do you react to it ?

One thing I’ve noticed with my BPD is those with NPD behaviour would almost always treat her very badly and she would complain about it, but if you agreed she then instantly took offence and defended them. Her golden child, was the NPD who treated the the worst of all. This even extended to celebrities like Jimmy Savil  (a prolific paedophile) or Donald Trump , she would blindly defend them without even knowing much about them.  Did you see a similar allegiance with your BPD ?

[zachira]

One key thing to remember about gas lighting is the perpetrator is trying to make you feel like you are crazy, and to mistrust your own judgment. One of my best life lessons was when a boyfriend broke up with me, and treated me with kindness and respect. It felt so good to end things the right way. I now know that conflict feels right when it leads to deeper more meaningful relationships: if I being dumped upon it just feels plain terrible, and it is better to make an exit as quickly as possible and limit contact, especially conversations as you are only going to be blamed for what the offender cannot accept about him/herself.

[Fie]

Did you see a similar allegiance with your BPD ?

My mum always felt everyone was against her, not only NPD  :-)
I think my mum does not like people so much, in general. She's not somebody who would vote for a democrat (if you are in US), because then the money would go to people 'who only take advantage', blabla. (as if she doesn't) Sometimes I am not sure if that's really her opinion, or only her mimicking my dad.
Funny you mention Trump, I have wondered how she thinks about him, as my parents are NC with me. If she's pro, that would make her one of the very few people in my country, so I hope she didn't get thàt bad  :-)

About defending people, my mum did sometimes try to 'mediate' between my sister and me. Well, that's how back then I saw it. She could really seem sweet at moments like that, and I never understood how she seemed so balanced - because normally she wasn't. Now I know it was fake. Maybe she wanted to seem like the hero ? Maybe she wanted to appear like the balanced one ? In fact she hated it if my sister and me got along well. She made sure that in the end, we didn't. But boy she was sneaky and I never really realized it.

I cannot really answer your question about how I react to gaslighting, because since I have drawn boundaries my parents have pulled away. I do remember how I reacted last time I heared her, though. I told her 'I don't believe that. Maybe you could pull my leg that much before, but those times are gone'. Not the best reaction I know. ;-)  But that was after a phone call full of crap, and I just about had it. I know it's not the thing we are supposed to learn here, but I was not willing to walk on eggshells for a very long time anymore. I guess they picked that up, because that was one of the last times I heard her.

Gaslighting... .What is your definition of it ? For me, it's lying and making the other one believe something that isn't there, on purpose. I actually know my mum did it, but sometimes I still think 'am I sure ? Wasn't it me ?' because I don't seem to remember much. So I was in a way really happy to hear the full blown lie in the phone call. Every time I think 'was my mum really like that ?'  I think back about the phone call lie.

I think reacting with humor like you say you do is great. I like the idea. There is so much we can resolve with humor, and we can even put a slight sarcasm in it, like 'o really ?'.

Thanks for making me think. I might open a thread about the not remembering. Even my therapist thinks it's strange.

How's the connecting back with your mum going btw ?

[HappyChappy]

How's the connecting back with your mum going btw ?

Connecting back with my BPD just substantiates how BPD she is. So I guess I was still cling to the hope she was a normal mum. Worse still, her narcisstic techniques are laid bare for me to see. Never realised she said “No that's not right” to about 50% of what people say. I have the same definition of gas lighting as you.

My BPD was a Queen Witch type, so very aggressive but also extremely empowered. She claims glory for things I or my father did, but no one dare correct her. I now realise that is an effective way of rewriting history, just as Trumps fake new was. I was amazed when he attacked the BBC and CNN the two biggest world news channels.

I might open a thread about the not remembering. Even my therapist thinks it's strange.

I also have memory blanks, my T told me this is dissociation, basically when you are trapped and have to just roll over and take it, we can dissociate with what is going on in the here and now, as a anaesthetic to the trauma. But now I get it just when stressed, so rushing to work I will not remember if I’ve put the bins out, or even if someone spoke to me. Anyway Fie thank you also for making me think. Good to chat to someone with the BPD NPD combo, I'm sending you a medal for dealing with double trouble.