My wife has really detached. It really hurts and I’m alone.

[Depression = 72% of members]

DB, I am a little confused over the "divorce" "plans".
... .
Is this it?

Yes. More or less.

The only caveat is this: I can’t live in a marriage like this anymore. Is there a Hail Mary pass that might simultaneously end this current impasse AND change the marriage dynamic to something livable?

[DaddyBear77]

DB, I am a little confused over the "divorce" "plans".
... .
Is this it?

Yes. More or less.

The only caveat is this: I can’t live in a marriage like this anymore. Is there a Hail Mary pass that might simultaneously end this current impasse AND change the marriage dynamic to something livable?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

There is only one Hail Mary I can think of and I implore the wisdom of other posters for their insight. I am only one person and not a professional but I will tell you what I think.

In situations like this - I fall back on the codependency tools I learned- what are my values, wishes, ideas and what are someone else's? We all have limits. I hope if your wife told you to do something truly against your values in order to save your marriage that you would not do it. For instance - would you rob a bank, or beat up your mother- something that is so against what you value or would something about you stop you? If something stops you - that is your value, your true self speaking to you. You have learned to stop listening to him but you can.

Co dependency is taking responsibility for someone's wishes or actions that they are responsible for. Your wife says she wants a divorce. If someone wants a divorce then logically they need to take the steps to get one- see a lawyer, make plans etc. You don't want a divorce, yet you are taking responsibility for her saying she wants one.

There are unpleasant consequences to divorce. It is meant to be difficult so people don't take it lightly. You are planning to give her a free and easy cushy divorce with no consequences on the basis of her latest "wish du jour".

IMHO - and this is only my opinion - put the responsibility for this wish on her. Do not say or do anything ( don't move out - don't agree to anything ) without your lawyers advice. Keep your lawyer. Tell your wife  you don't want to discuss this.

I don't know what she will do but it doesn't make sense to do her divorce for her if you don't want one. Try to listen to your higher self DB and hear what is your value. You can't control what she wants or does but you can stand for what you want. Keep your lawyer for your own protection and advice but no more requests for actions that appear to be you but are really her. That will confuse the lawyer who may then pursue something that isn't really in your best interest.

[flourdust]

So, I guess what I'm hearing is just forget about this kind of thinking... .

I've been searching and searching for the right answers. Do I go along with her request for custody, and avoid a battle?

... .and batten down the hatches (and get ready for a war?)

No, this is black and white thinking. Divorce <> battle. Divorce = negotiation.

"Going along" with her request is essentially surrendering any interests of your own in favor of hers. You and your kids will pay for years to come by essentially giving her 100% custody and walking away from parenting except on her terms. You will also be communicating to your kids that she is the only real parent, and you up and left them.

If you submitted your wife's terms to court, they would want to know why you are such a terrible parent that you are ceding the 50% of custody that is nominally assumed to be yours.

This is what I meant by excessive codependent thinking. Your values are so distorted right now that you can not be trusted to make good decisions without professional guidance. I'm sorry that this is harsh, but I think you need to hear that. You are so ruled by FOG that you are willing to throw everyone -- your kids, yourself, your future -- under the bus in order to try to satisfy your wife.

[Radcliff]

DB, let me second what flourdust has said 100%.  I totally understand why you are thinking what you are thinking.  When you are that close to the reality distortion field of your pwBPD for that long, it is really hard to grasp how disordered it is.  We think, "nobody would say something crazy, so they must be reasonable, maybe I'm being unreasonable."  When we've been in the pattern so long, we just do it automatically.  As an objective observer, hearing you consider taking your wife's "offer," (please forgive the dark humor to follow) I feel like I'm watching a horror movie with a guy approaching a door, and everyone in the theater yells, ":)on't open the door!"  You are a kick *ss dad.  Your wife's offer would create a disordered universe for you and your daughter. 

Your instinct is to sacrifice yourself to meet the needs of those around you.  Your daughter needs a father who is healthy, happy, and living a whole life.  You need to have an intact, coherent world, where you are living as a full person, in order to set the right example for her of how to live, and to give her all of the nurturing and safety she needs to grow.  Taking care of yourself is taking care of your daughter.  Taking care of yourself means you need to be an empowered father with full agency who is free to parent his daughter according to his values, and who is respected as a full person in his own home.

Regarding all of your wife's threats.  I have heard them all.  Particularly the one about fabricating or blowing incidents out of proportion.  If she wishes to press forward with her accusations, she is going to have to face people who are not disordered in their thinking, and are not under her spell.  Judges and lawyers with very little patience for baloney.  She is going to have to have dates and specifics of incidents.  Consider the timing -- how does it look if she comes up with accusations right at the same time as serving divorce papers?  I'm not saying you're bulletproof, but you may find some of her accusations evaporating -- they were just for your ears, to intimidate you -- and any other accusations, she's going to have to prove with a preponderance of evidence.  Don't worry about that.  What you CAN control is your behavior from here on out.  Double down on your efforts to stay in control and not give her ammunition -- which, I think, means don't put yourself in an impossible situation.  Can you find a way to exit conversations before you hit the 12 hour mark?  (B.w.t., I admire your stamina, I don't think I ever went past 6 or 8 hours  )  Do you see how bad a 12 hour conversation is?  It kills you, and it gives her a truly massive payoff of your energy and attention, which means she will want to do it again.  Did I mention that boundaries book? 

Notwendy had some excellent points as well.  For some strange reason I'd feel a pull to "help" my wife enact the strange scenarios she concocted.  But I was able to pull back.  She suggested that *I* move out.  I basically did what Notwendy advised, which was refuse to put any energy into a divorce.  I found a lawyer who I trusted, and went on with life (encountering some other complications which I don't think are relevant to your situation).  My wife had a pattern of inviting me to do her dirty work for her.  Sometimes I was able to avoid it, other times I picked up and did her dirty work without even realizing it should have been hers.  Long conversations about the terms of a divorce if you don't believe in it, making terms so good for her, no negotiating work is required, all of that is doing her work for her.  If she has to do her own work, if she can't draw you into endless conversations where you give your energy to her, if she can't scare you with it, the work of a divorce and taking responsibility for it my not seem as attractive to her.

One more thing -- I have a homework exercise for you.  For one week, starting today, write down every parenting thing you do, as well as any housework, cooking, or home maintenance you do.  At the end of the week, take a look at it.  If you were ever to have to have a discussion with someone about how much parenting time you should get, how would you feel showing them that list, and talking about all that you are doing to raise your daughter?  I'm betting you'd feel proud and confident.

WW

[DaddyBear77]

... .
You will also be communicating to your kids that she is the only real parent, and you up and left them.
... .
You are so ruled by FOG that you are willing to throw everyone -- your kids, yourself, your future -- under the bus in order to try to satisfy your wife.

I feel like I'm watching a horror movie with a guy approaching a door, and everyone in the theater yells, ":)on't open the door!" 

If something stops you - that is your value, your true self speaking to you. You have learned to stop listening to him but you can.

Of COURSE I know I'm doing stupid, dangerous, harmful things to myself, my daughter, my wife, my family or origin! I've known that for 18 years! All of the things that therapists and counselors have said over the years, all of the things my parents and my brothers have tried to communicate, all the things I read in books and online, and every single thing that every one of you have tried to communicate... .it's all in here, eating me, depressing me, stressing me, keeping me anxious and angry.

WHY am I DOING this?

Your values are so distorted right now that you can not be trusted to make good decisions without professional guidance.

You might be right, flourdust, but I'm not sure I'm that far gone. I think my values are fine. I'm just not living by them. I've gotten plenty of guidance over the years, and more than anything, my internal guidance system seems to work fine when I can keep my head above water. But it's good to keep that in check, so I'm glad you put it that way. It really grabbed my attention.

All I need to do is listen to my tin man heart, my scarecrow brain, and use the courage of a cowardly lion to get it all done!

[Notwendy]

There was a great line from a Dr. Phil show. The family was centered around one member who had an eating disorder- what this person ate, what she didn't eat and so on. This gave the person tremendous power - the whole family revolved around her ( disordered) feelings and didn't even seem to think about their own. This person's disordered thinking was driving the family car .

Dr Phil looked at them and said:

You are all lost in the woods and are following a disordered person to lead you out.

I think your wife's thinking is very disordered too. Without a strong sense of self, being around someone with BPD often,  it is hard to recognize disordered thinking.

DB, I don't know why you do it. Your family needs you to be the reality check. Your wife's disordered thinking is driving the marriage into her fantasy divorce plans.

What Wentworth said: Your daughter needs a father who is healthy, happy, and living a whole life.  You need to have an intact, coherent world, where you are living as a full person, in order to set the right example for her of how to live, and to give her all of the nurturing and safety she needs to grow.  Taking care of yourself is taking care of your daughter.  Taking care of yourself means you need to be an empowered father with full agency who is free to parent his daughter according to his values, and who is respected as a full person in his own home.

[Radcliff]

Daddybear, you said that you have heard all the advice, that you agree, yet you still cannot stop yourself.  I hear you.  I understand.  I completely agree with fourdust's point that you need professional guidance.  Support here is only a part of the solution.  Having a real live person sitting in front of you, validating, coaching you towards healthy decisions and behaviors, etc. is what is required to help lead you out of the fog.  Do not try to climb this mountain without a sherpa.

Do you have any good leads on a T?  Have you seen one before?

WW

[Harley Quinn]

Of COURSE I know I'm doing stupid, dangerous, harmful things to myself, my daughter, my wife, my family or origin! I've known that for 18 years! All of the things that therapists and counselors have said over the years, all of the things my parents and my brothers have tried to communicate, all the things I read in books and online, and every single thing that every one of you have tried to communicate... .it's all in here, eating me, depressing me, stressing me, keeping me anxious and angry.

DB, that sounds really intense.    I can imagine that's really heavy stuff to carry around for so long.  What is the alternative and how does that make you feel in contrast?  I know you are scared of the possibility of being alone.  If you sit with that feeling and allow yourself to truly imagine being in that position, is it better or worse than the feelings you have right now that you describe above?

Love and light x

[Turkish]

DB77,

I'm very late to this thread but something you said on the beginning stood out to me.

Now, the rages don’t last long. I step on an eggshell, she says “you’ve hurt me for the last time. I don’t want you around!” I say “fine, I’ll leave.” Cool down. I text her “can’t we work this out?” She says “No, go to hell. Leave me alone.”

This strikes me not only as validating the invalid (her core fear of you leaving, and we know it's common for pwBPD to drive loved ones to validate their fear script), but also engaging in the role as Persecutor, she the victim. 

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

Lets face it, what I'm doing is pretty nuts.

A lot of people are reading this thread, and many (most?) of you are probably having a reaction similar to Wentworth - ":)ON'T OPEN THAT DOOR! THERE'S BAD STUFF IN THERE!"

Here are some of my thoughts on this - I'm not sure if I've got all this straight, but let me see if I can give it a try... .


Co dependency is a really hard thing to get, unless you live it, and then you may not even realize it's happening. We THINK we're saving someone and that's noble and we should get "credit" for being such a great person. At the very least, we should get a pass from all the anger and frustration we get from the person we're co-depending on, right?

But what we're really doing, I think, is that we're playing into a dysfunctional cycle that enables the other person to stay as disordered as they possibly can be. We are robbing another person of their personhood, their agency, their ability to dictate the terms of their own life. As messed up as that life might seem to us, it's theirs to live. We have no right to live or manipulate or control the way someone does "life." And we're actually preventing them from taking those first steps toward any possible recovery, which is discovering and admitting, "Houston, we have a problem... ."

Meanwhile, OUR life is just kind of happening as a secondary after effect of the life someone ELSE is living. We hand over every single choice we have in life to someone else. Put another way, every choice we make is for, or on behalf of, someone else. If we are defined by the choices we make in life, then in essence we are undefined. Or, at the very least, we're defined by desperation and manipulation. There is the other person (them), and then there is the other person's person (us).

If the other person leaves our life, then our life goes with them, and we are no more.

Sounds kind of BPD-ish, doesn't it?  "Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment" are sure to follow this.

Now imagine two people, different sides of a coin, both having this intense fear of abandonment.


I'm going to stop here, and ask those people who are more experienced / much further along than i am (i.e., everyone who has so generously and kindly replied to my post!)... .

Am I getting it? Am I on target here?

[ortac77]

DB

I think co-dependency is indeed very hard to get our head around, after all it is something I think we find hard to admit and even when we 'get it' it leaves us in a situation of having to accept that another person is not capable of meeting our unmet needs. This goes against some very core beliefs held from our early years. Some of us are 'caretakers' its the way we are, looking at our motivations for being this way can be illuminating, changing it is hard work!

In living with a pwBPD we do think we are acting out of kindness and you are indeed right that this becomes a cycle of dysfunction - in trying to meet their needs (which of course change frequently and are often full of contradiction) we go against our own needs. It might temporarily ease their situation to go along with their needs/thinking but it becomes an endless cycle which can leave us feeling sad, depressed, anxious, resentful, hurt - those feelings are unbearable!

Of course we are not meeting their needs when we enable, we are providing temporary relief whilst at the same time denying them the painful opportunity of learning, why should they learn when we are there to 'solve their angst'? At the same time we are going against our needs and making an already difficult situation worse.

Our own thinking becomes distorted by trying to force solutions but we keep falling back into a cycle where nobody is getting what they need. As the 'non' we have a clearer picture but this constant cycle leads us to self -doubt. Just as the only 'hail mary' is for the pwBPD to seek and commit to recovery with professional help, and it has to be their choice - so we also need professional help and guidance.

DB I can see the pain and anguish in your postings and how hard things have become, ultimately this dysfunctional dance only ends when one party can dance no longer - I would urge you to get some professional help for yourself - when caught up in this cycle we cannot find the answers in 'our own head' and on these boards there is great help from those having gone through similar situations but we are all unique and having guidance from a therapist who understands BPD can be very helpful in helping to see our way through the woods even if our BPD partner cannot.


Hugs

Ortac77

[Notwendy]

DB, I think you get it intellectually, but it is hard for you to stop doing it.

I understand that. I observed it in my father but when I had to work on it myself, I understood it better.

An explanation of why you can not resist it easily parallels the addiction model. I know some people have disputed this, and I also don't like the idea of that model being used as an excuse only, but it is an interesting concept when used to work on it.

I think people are familiar with addictions such as alcohol or drugs and understand them as emotional and chemical addictions. I don't have those addictions and so thought of myself as free from any addictions, but somehow this idea- co-dependency as an addiction made sense when I considered how hard it was to break the patterns- but it can be done. It does take some work.

It took counseling, 12 step co-dependency groups and working one on one with a sponsor. I think posting here helps but the one on one with the sponsor- really getting at the tough stuff, someone holding my feet to the fire- was what it took to get a handle on it.

A few people told my I was co-dependent but I didn't quite get what that was and read books that didn't really resonate with me. Many were from the perspective of partners of drug or alcohol abusers but that didn't really fit. I wasn't dealing with that.  When a MC suggested the 12 step groups, I walked in thinking " I don't belong here".

In time I realized I did belong there.  

A definition of addiction is using something or someone to escape our own bad feelings. An alcoholic uses a drink. A co-dependent "uses" other people in the sense that a focus on them, not us, keeps us from looking too closely at our own issues/bad feelings. Denial is a common component of both - the alcoholic tells himself it isn't this bad, I can control it, and it is also the case with co-dependency.

With the help of a sponsor, I started to pay close attention to my impulse to step in and rescue, or when I was feeling tempted to JADE or get into a circular argument. I began to imagine these "temptations" as someone offering me something as addictive as a drink or a drug. The term emotional sobriety began to make sense. These things were not good for me and I needed to not get into them.

The other model that fit was "hitting bottom". They say the time that a person is most motivated to seek help is when they are truly feeling the effects of their addiction. Addicts of all kinds tend to be paired with enablers who actually harm them by keeping them from hitting bottom- which keeps them from change. I think the BPD-non pairing is sort of a dual enabling. The needs of the pwBPD provide a supply of temptation for the non- along with the emotional "high" of the relationship when these actions temporarily work- like the momentary euphoria when you bought your wife a ring, went on that second honeymoon. But like a drug, there's the crash which shortly followed- and now the withdrawal and scramble for another "fix". The pwBPD doesn't get the opportunity to grow- to learn how to manage their own emotions, or learn from the consequences of their actions.

I think people resist the "dependency " part of co-dependency but there is a different definition of dependent. They may be independent in other ways- earn a living for example. One idea from ACA groups is "we become reactors rather than actors". This resonated with me. Instead of acting, I was reacting to the needs of others. Remember those science experiments in high school? There was an independent variable and a dependent variable.  The independent variable changed and the dependent variable responded to that change. A plant grew facing the sun. Move the plant, it changed direction to face the sun. The plant didn't choose its own direction. Co-dependency is being like that plant.

You know my basic story. My parents had many of the same dynamics as you and your wife. I knew my mother had issues but thought my father was the normal one so I didn't recognize co-dependency in him or me until I had to work on it. Bringing these traits into my marriage led to problems and I did "hit bottom" emotionally- with the marriage and also with the drama in my FOO- I just didn't want to participate in these patterns. I did not want to break contact with my mother, who was by then a widow, or break up my marriage. My hope was that working on my own co-dependency would reduce my own dysfunctional behaviors and it did. It was a start. I think of it as a work in progress. Since the marital issues were significantly milder than what I observed in my FOO, there has been progress. The relationship with my mother is more difficult- considering she has been in these patterns for decades it would be. However, over time, our interactions are less dysfunctional than they have been.

DB, I will echo the others. I think getting professional help is important when dealing with co-dependency. It helps to have someone holding the mirror up to one's own actions and behaviors.

[ortac77]

Hi NotWendy

I just wanted to echo your posting, co-dependency does (to me) follow an addiction model, I too have attended 12 step programmes as well as having one- to one counselling. I know in Al-Anon my initial 12 step experience they talked about being addicted to 'people, places and things' - it took me time to see it but I know its true.

To an extent it applies to those of us addicted to 'enabling' our BPD partner - I found it led me to seek working with a therapist who also treats BPD clients, this helped me to see how I could also apply DBT to my own situation.

I am not 'there' yet - maybe never will be totally 'there' and that has helped me to see that my partner (who is in DBT counselling) also will not be 'cured' but can (if he wants to) gain more skills to better manage his life.

Its a long journey and I can resist sometimes and just want to walk away, I could from my partner but I see that I cannot from myself and that to me is the key.

DB - my fear is that we are forever destined to repeat our own patterns until we confront them and I think you really have got 'the what' is happening, the tough part is getting the 'how and why' and just for me I have to look a lot harder at me than I do to my partner, all IMHO of course.

[pearlsw]

Hi DaddyBear,

I hear ya. The "why" is a piece of the painful puzzle. I ask myself this too and the answers are never great. These divorce threats are unbearable and I am recommitting myself to finding a way out of this destructive pattern. I am so sorry you are feeling stressed, depressed, anxious, and angry.

I got to speak with a neutral third party recently and it was a nice, unexpected, kick in the pants on these issues. One thing this person and I agreed on is that I can't continue to "stay and keep suffering like this"... .but what to do about it? Just seeing all my options on the table, and having to acknowledge there are no good options, just less bad ones... .helped. So... .I'm not here to push, I trust you will find your way out of the confusion on the timetable you will, but I'm just here to offer you support... .there really are ways out of this... .the other side is scary, but it may also hold some options that are worth the effort to entertain. I'm right here with you about to lose the life I've grown used to, the life I've made such a strong effort to make as healthy as I can... .losing this relationship would be a tragedy for me in some ways, but... .who knows what could happen if we face our fears.  

Keep talking... .why are you doing this? In my case I think I a bit a stubborn in the sense that... .well maybe I'm a bit (too?) hopeful, and I don't like to "quit"... .but what if I was putting all of this effort into a life that would bring me more happiness? I don't know either... .but I'm trying to, I've been forced in the past few weeks to finally face such things and to imagine a new life... .I dunno... .it could be good, in time... .it could be good.

[DaddyBear77]

I don’t want to turn this into a “Conflicted” style thread, but it’s important to aknowledge the intense back and forth we experience inside a relationship like this. I think there’s a lot of relief to be had on the other side of a “relationship exit” - but it’s too tempting to just walk away and say “it’s better now.” I’ve made some real mistakes and I genuinely want to “correct”’ them, learn from them, whatever is possible, I want to do it.

I’m going to start counceling again next week. For most of the past 9 years I’ve been going, but not so much the past year. I had a thread or two about this. Whatever the reasons, it’s time to go again.

I’m also going to take my primary care doctor up on her offer to help we get started again on an anti depressant / anti anxiety med. I don’t need that underlying foundation to be compromised as much as it is right now, which isn’t a lot comparatively but it’s there.

Finally, I’m going to make and keep a second consultation appointment with my attorney next week.

All this takes a lot of mental energy and also financial outlay, but i think it’s worth it. I’m worth it.

Thanks for all the support everyone. I really appreciate it.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if I missed something but I don't see the conflict in this thread, but please explain if there is.

I understand the back and forth, and I think many posters do. I saw it happen over decades with my parents. Their relationship was a mystery to me. I seek to understand it from the perspective of how it influenced me, but I saw it all, DB, the conflict, the circular arguments, the recycles.

After I left home for college, I really didn't see my parents a lot, except during school breaks, some time off. When I had my own children, they visited more often to see the grandkids. BPD mom was not much of an issue, as she was not alone with them. There is no way I would leave small children alone with her after my own experiences as her child- but she instinctively knew I would not tolerate disordered behavior and held it together. It is interesting how pwBPD tend to sense boundaries and if motivated for something - will seem to hold it together. It is in the most intimate relationships that things are the toughest- and if their partner also has poor boundaries and co-dependency that can add to dysfunction.

But I was co-dependent and didn't really know it, even though I was less co-dependent than my father. I was co-dependent in my marriage, with my mother and with him. Our relationship fit the drama triangle. I saw how my mother treated him. I couldn't stand it. I didn't see his part in their drama, just hers, and saw him as her victim. When you mentioned your wife saying that your D might grow up to hate you, it is also possible she may hate her mother when she sees the conflicts between you two. In their conflict ,I always took my father's side. When his health began to fail, I took her to task, not knowing she'd take victim perspective, present me as persecutor and enlist Dad to rescue her from me. This pattern had actually been going on since my teen years. There was no way I could see my mother's behaviors as acceptable and pretend they were. The back and forth pattern also played out between me and my parents.

I am so glad to see you taking steps to take care of you. My H had refused MC until there came a point where I think he got scared of losing the relationship. I had spent years working at "fixing" my marriage - fixing us- reading piles of marriage books, turning into a Stepford wife- basically a domestic servant with benefits to try to stop the rages. I was not happy.  I got to a point where I felt I most needed to just work on me more.  I think my H must have noticed the emotional shift. He had refused MC because he feared the MC would tell me to get a divorce but I think at this point he feared not going more.  The MC then said something significant.

She said her goals were to keep the marriage, but even if the marriage ended, the skills we would gain would allow us to negotiate that in a less contentious way because the conflicts and dysfunction would be less. But that didn't mean my H was on board with changing. He really wasn't- insight isn't his nature. But the co-dependency on my part was a problem that I didn't want and I really wanted to change it. I stopped trying to "save my marriage" and became concerned about saving me.

DB, I don't think anyone is expecting you to make giant changes or even decide on your marriage- that is a huge giant step and dealing with co-dependency isn't instant. Taking on self care is key and a step in the right direction. Take care of you- the counselor, the lawyer, medication if you need it. Yes, you are worth it and so is that little girl of yours. She needs you to take care of you and also to role model taking care of you.

The future of your marriage isn't known, but working on co-dependency and self care will likely reduce the drama in your marriage. If the marriage holds together, it will be better. If it does not, there still will be divorce negotiations and you two have a child together. Reducing the drama will help with that as well, if it were to happen. Investing in you is an investment you get to keep.

[DaddyBear77]

Notwendy, I was just referring to the indecision as to whether I want to work on codependency in the context of this marriage or if I’d rather seek separation while I work on things. I don’t want divorce, I’m sure that I am committed to honoring my vows. But the hostile environment I live in now might prevent the growth I need. That’s what I was referring to when I said “Conflicted style”

Anyway, I wanted to share something very cool. We’re at the salon where my daughter is getting her first ever haircut. The stylist just said my daughter is unlike any girl she’s ever seen. She’s going to change the world, she said.

I couldn’t agree more.

[Notwendy]

I get it. I think it is honest to admit indecision. I don't think anyone is questioning whether you want a divorce- just raising the concern that you may be facilitating your wife's cushy, consequence free divorce fantasies. Yes, with her threats consulting your lawyer in order to protect your interests is important and advisable.

Take this one step at a time. Work on co-dependency now, right where you are and deal with the other decisions with the support of a counselor and your lawyer.

Yes, your D will change the world. I have a feeling she's going to start with you.  

[Radcliff]

Anyway, I wanted to share something very cool. We’re at the salon where my daughter is getting her first ever haircut. The stylist just said my daughter is unlike any girl she’s ever seen. She’s going to change the world, she said.

Whether it's the genes or the parenting, either way you're doing a great job!  I am sure you were unlike any dad the stylist had ever met!

Hang in there, DB!

WW

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks WW. She really is such an amazing person. I got so lucky in life to have her come into mine. BOTH of her parents love her so much, and I see the traits from both of us shine through and combine in such an amazing way. Did i mention how crazy I am about her? 

I spoke to my L again and I have a solid plan to document my interactions and parenting activity. I’m not going to file but I’ll be prepared if she does.

But what really concerns me is how VERY unhealthy I’ve been. I’m completely shocked at my choices and behaviors over the years. I’ve willingly given up SO much. Understanding why I’ve done this is important. Stopping it now and going in a completely different direction immediately is more important.

My wife has a disorder. The basis for her custody request is a paranoid delusional idea that another woman (my mother) is trying to steal away her child. Her mother (my mother in law) shares this trait of disordered thinking and provides an unhealthy feedback loop. My wife’s counselor is not trained to deal with personality disorders. My wife is taught weekly that she’s an abuse survivor (which often gets translated to victim), and must use the tool sets of empowerment and self protection in the context of her perceived dangerous and abusive marriage.

So, in conclusion, there is no way I am going to willingly, voluntarily give up parenting time. Ever. Not on the basis of her claims or anyone else’s.

And that’s all I have to say about that 

[Grey Kitty]

I spoke to my L again and I have a solid plan to document my interactions and parenting activity. I’m not going to file but I’ll be prepared if she does.

When I read what she wanted in a 'divorce', I was reminded that she is mentally ill, and lives in world where reality is morphed to fit her emotions, and this is evidence of it. I cannot imagine a court forcing you to do that, and would hope it would even refuse to sign off on it should you ask for it. (But don't know about that!)

It does give you a window into her expectations and perhaps what she will do, however. If you start divorce, separation, or simply move out on your own terms (i.e. not coming back to be her caretaker after you get your own apartment!) she will rage and make false allegations against you. That's a pretty safe bet.

Would she do it with police/courts/lawyers? Or would she just rage at you? Men go to jail over a false DV accusations. Or get restraining orders that keep them away from their kids.

From what you've said of her, it isn't clear how far she will take this stuff in a rage,

Talk to your lawyer again. Explain to her that the email you sent was what your wife is demanding, NOT what you want, and tell the lawyer more about your real home situation. Get her advice on what could happen if things really blow up... .and how best to protect yourself. I'm thinking that documentation of your parenting activities and her rages are both going to be on the list.

So, in conclusion, there is no way I am going to willingly, voluntarily give up parenting time. Ever. Not on the basis of her claims or anyone else’s.

   This is what it looks like when you find your core values that make it worth it to fight your own codependence and do the right thing. Keep it up!

[Harley Quinn]

So, in conclusion, there is no way I am going to willingly, voluntarily give up parenting time. Ever. Not on the basis of her claims or anyone else’s.

And that’s all I have to say about that   

Now that's a powerful statement and one which reflects your inner strength, which is coming to the surface DB.  So wonderful to see.  That is one firm boundary on yourself.    Which of your other values can you begin to honour in due course I wonder?

Love and light x

[Notwendy]

That statement right there is what I wanted from my father. Not just at age 4, but at any age. She won't need the kind of parenting at age 44 that she needs at age 4 but she will always treasure the bond between you two. Glad to see you won't give that up but that also means not giving up you.

It will take some work to change the behaviors you mention but it's worth the investment in you !

[Radcliff]

That statement right there is what I wanted from my father. Not just at age 4, but at any age. She won't need the kind of parenting at age 44 that she needs at age 4 but she will always treasure the bond between you two. Glad to see you won't give that up but that also means not giving up you.

It will take some work to change the behaviors you mention but it's worth the investment in you !

Notwendy, thanks for acting as the voice of our grownup daughters! 

WW

[Notwendy]

Thank you WW- that means a lot!

[formflier]

DaddyBear77,

I would encourage you to start another post to continue this discussion.  Keep up the good work of being open and taking in feedback!

This thread has reached its posting limit, and is therefore locked.

FF