Support for children

[yeeter]

During a conversation with my d9 over the weekend, a comment stuck out at me.

She had a can soda and we were running across a field with it.  I mentioned that it could blow up and spray when she opened it (in my car), so be careful.  This happened once in our house and it upset mom quite a bit.

So I asked her what would happen if she spilled soda in moms car:

"Oh, mom would RAGE at me!"

Me:  "yes I can see that could happen"

d9:  "When mom rages I just want to kill myself"

Of course this statement got my attention.  I told her not to think that way, because I would be so sad and would miss her terribly and I loved her and her friends loved her and her mother loved her even.  If she was ever feeling this way come find me and I will give her a big huge hug.

But it hit me as a reminder of how severe the verbal berating can be.  And the sting it carries (I had experienced this directed anger many times so know how hurtful it can be - and I am an adult).

My son went through a phase where he would mention 'just killing himself', and it is a difficult thing for a parent to hear.  But I hadnt made the association to moms rages quite so strongly (it undermines and destroys self confidence). 

I do understand there is a balance between what may be 'normal' with kids.  And that is the tricky part, not having other models to compare against, I lose sight of what 'normal' looks like. 

This particular incident was just a statement by my daughter.  She is pretty strong and insightful emotionally (although a very 'sweet' child, empathetic and caring).  And my s14 seems to be mostly through this phase.

But still struck me as a reminder to watch out for.

I would love to hear other great responses to give children when they are feeling overwhelmed and say that they want to kill themselves.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm so sorry, yeter. I know how it feels to have a raging BPD mother. I'm not sure I ever said I felt like killing myself, but I do recall telling her that I never chose to be born and it was her fault that I was there.

Kids don't really understand death so I'm not sure I would make too much of that comment. I remember thinking it was sort of a throwaway line when I was a kid--major hyperbole for something unpleasant.

I think the best way to deal with it is to tell your daughter how much you love her. You could really help her by telling her in detail her strengths and how proud of her you are.

[Notwendy]

On the outside, I looked like a kid who probably had a lot together. I was good in academics, loved school, had friends, and participated in a lot of activities- sports, drama, art.

However, that was the outside and it hid a lot. Nobody would have guessed the insecurity and self loathing and feelings I had. Growing up with a volatile and verbally critical BPD mother, and a father who I am sure was overwhelmed with the responsibilities of a job and his situation I had little spontaneous affection and affirmation. My overwhelmed father urged us to just not make waves, and to have a little bit of peace. I posted on the family board about some sad things I wrote as a kid.

I had a pretty solid moral core, and would not have considered suicide or self harm, or harming my mother but I do recall wanting to disappear, not be in their lives. Money was a concern in the family and one idea I had was that when I grew up, I would pay them back for what it cost to raise me and then never see them again.

In middle school something shifted and in retrospect, I fit the definition of depression. My self esteem was extremely low. I was also afraid to stand up for myself or say no to anyone. I had no real idea of who I was, just knew I had to be what others wanted me to be if I wanted them to like me.

My mother told me I was the cause of her issues with my father and I believed her. I actually believed that when I left for college, they would be happy. I only learned later from a sibling that their issues persisted after I left home.

I mention this not to tell a sad story but to remind you that your children may look better on the outside than they feel. They have learned to pretend and keep the peace- from their parents.

So what contributed to my resilience?

At my request- ( I had read about psychology) my parents sent me to a counselor where I could speak about what was going on in my home and my feelings in a safe place.

I got to spend extended time with my father's relatives- stable, normal people who loved me unconditionally.

I got a lot of positive feedback from academics, activities, good friends and their parents.

I did get some one on one time with my father and those times were special. Every little girl needs to know that their Daddy is crazy about them, and boys need to know they father loves them too. I owe a lot to my father who did show us parental love growing up.

I don't know if your children are considering self harm, but I see their statements as a cry for help. They are not happy and even if they look like they are doing OK, what child says this if they are truly happy and feels secure at home? They may think that if they were gone, their mother would be happier without them.

Please get your kids in counseling and also to spend some time away from the chaos and drama in their home. If there is a loving relative, maybe that relative will spend some time with them. Give them as many opportunities for positive role models and positive reinforcement. If they are good at something- academics, arts, sports - promote that and be proud of them. Encourage them to be who they are, not something else to try to please their parents.

Lastly and importantly. They look at what you do more than what you say. Model self care for them. Work on your own co-dependent and enabling traits.

[yeeter]

Thanks Cat and Wendy.  Any/all ideas are useful for consideration.

I know my son went through a period where he was pretty negative.  In hindsight it may have been depression.  He has called his mother a 'monster'.  Has asked me why I stay (he asked me that straight up once - and I answered honestly because I wanted to stay in his life with his siblings - to which he replied that they 'would be ok' if I left).  Recently he made a comment 'why do you think I stay in my room?  Because if I come downstairs I will get yelled at'.  And that he doesnt like having friends over, would rather go to their house.   

So I think he is pretty far on his way to independence.  But disappointing that I have brought children into this environment.

My middle child is being completely engulfed as an extension of my wifes person.  My wife tells her what to think, what to like, what opinions to have, etc.  She just goes with it and adopts all her mothers views as her own.  Doesnt seem healthy, and will set her up to simply be dependent on the first boyfriend that comes along.

The youngest is showing good signs of independent thinking.

I figure if I can teach them independent thinking, and confidence, we will be 90% there.  2 of 3 are on track.

And of course every night at bedtime I tell them I love them.  AND, that "I will always love them". 

[Harri]

I would love to hear other great responses to give children when they are feeling overwhelmed and say that they want to kill themselves.

I would suggest you be careful telling them their mother loves them when they are expressing anger, despair, depression, whatever.  Though I am sure she does love them, you telling the kids that she does can be very invalidating.  Really, what does it matter if she loves them when she is raging at them, verbally abusing them, etc?  If you said you wanted to kill yourself when your wife raged at you and a friend said "she loves you" what would it do for you?  For me, I would squelch down my feelings and berate myself for not being more understanding and 'nice'.  Not only is it invalidating, it can set the kids up for a lifetime of accepting crappy behavior.

Next time your daughter/kids tell you they want to kill themselves, ask them why they say such a thing, but ask in way that shows concern and compassion rather than shock and surprise.  Follow through by validating their feelings.  Try to teach them some of the tools here so they can begin to take care of themselves and protect themselves when your wife is abusing them (either verbally or emotionally).

Also, please refrain from telling your kids that you stay with their mom because of them.  It puts a lot of pressure and responsibility on the kids to think they are the cause of you staying in such a miserable situation when she is raging etc.  I know you do not mean it that way but most kids won't understand the way you do mean it. 

If your kids talk about suicide, listen to them.  Talk with them and validate them.  Get them help if they want or need it.  It is not normal and it is all too common for young kids to actually commit suicide.  I worked with a second grader who had already tried to commit suicide by the time I met him.  Even if they are just mimicking what they hear an adult say (You?  Your wife?  someone else?) it is not something they should be exposed to and can be emotional abuse.

Mothers/parents with BPD or BPD traits will have problems raising kids.  BPD is pervasive and effects every aspect of life (thoughts, beliefs actions) so there is no way it is not affecting their parenting.  Now, to what extent is it affected?  I think it varies from case to case.  No kid comes out of a situation like yours without at least some dings and bruises.

Notwendy gave some great suggestion for how to help the kids be more resilient.  another suggestion is to say to your kid(s) "Yes, Mommy gets angry sometimes.  Some people are not good at handling anger or stress.  Lets think of something you can do to take care of yourself when that happens again" and then see what you can come up with together. 

I hope some parents chime in with more suggestions.  I don't have kids but my mother was severely mentally ill and my father was pretty useless as the "non" parent.  I came out pretty damned broken as did my brother.  You would not know it to look at us.  Though my situation changed in recent years, both of us are professionals with graduate level education, good salary, nice house, kind generous people.  Just one or two layers down?  Whole different story.  My brother and I both withdrew like your oldest.  I was horribly enmeshed though I am much much better now.  My brother?  Still enmeshed and our mother has been dead for 11 years or so.

But it hit me as a reminder of how severe the verbal berating can be.  And the sting it carries (I had experienced this directed anger many times so know how hurtful it can be - and I am an adult).

Yes.  For adults it is hurtful.  For kids it is damaging emotionally and even physically.  Kids don't have the processing capabilities adults have.  What is hurtful to you as an adult can be devestating to a child.

Do what you can to validate, teach them coping skills as you learn, and do what you can to get the kids involved in groups where they can interact with other healthy people.

Good luck.

[Cat Familiar]

Great reply, Harri.  I agree with everything you said.

I probably discounted the suicide words because I had a rather histrionic friend in school who would say that for silly things, like not getting 90% on a test, or some boy not liking her. I learned recently that her mother had BPD, so maybe that’s where she heard it. Also explains why we were friends.

[Panda39]

The Power of Validation: Arming Your Child Against Bullying, Peer Pressure, Addiction, Self-Harm, and Out-of-Control Emotions by Karyn D. Hall & Melissa Cook

A book you might want to check out about validation.

I'm on these boards because my SO has an uBPDxw, but I'd like to share a little bit of my own story.

I was in a co-dependent marriage with an alcoholic for 20 years and raised a son in that marriage.  I too thought that if I could keep my ex's drunken behaviors directed at me that I was protecting my son.  My son also never had anyone over because of drunk man in our case.  My son also hid out in his room to avoid the conflict between his father and I... .he was hiding under the radar.  I thought I was "managing" everything and my ex was passed out in the basement.

I finally left my marriage when my son was 16, once out my son started to show signs of anxiety and depression.  It was not because of the divorce it was because he was more free to be himself and express himself.  He had been stuffing his feelings for a long time.  My son got some help from a therapist and is no longer depressed although he does still have social anxiety.

My point is that you might think you are protecting your kids, but they live in the same house and experience the dysfunction that goes on there don't assume that they are okay, they may be trying to stay under the radar and not make waves.

When your kids tell you they want to kill themselves take it seriously. They may not be planning to actually kill themselves but they are SCREAMING at you that they are unhappy and need help. 

My SO's daughter with the uBPDmom made suicide comments at school and they (thankfully) are mandatory reporters.  She was taken to the hospital, went inpatient for 2 weeks and was diagnosed with PTSD. 

I would suggest a therapist for your kids, they need an outside (of the family) person that they can talk to. 

Panda39

[Notwendy]

When your kids tell you they want to kill themselves take it seriously. They may not be planning to actually kill themselves but they are SCREAMING at you that they are unhappy and need help. 


yup

[yeeter]

Thanks all.

I was thinking about the concept that 'kids say things they dont mean all the time'.  After giving it some thought, I felt that is exactly how we fail ourselves, and others, in these relationships.  Earlier I posted about some behavior that we just 'normalized'.  So I am teaching my children by example, that these very NOT NORMAL behaviors are normal and we need adjust/cope.  So go hide in your room.  Withdrawal and avoid.  Because we dont have the skill to manage the dynamics in a healthy way.  Certainly I set this example.

But the dilemma is:  there are no skills to manage in a healthy way.  It is not a healthy dynamic.  And no kid has a remote chance in heck with the power dynamic between parent and child.

A great read suggestion, and I will take it. 

I have found these tools to be very useful in an indirect way.  By teaching the awareness and skills to the kids, it rubs off on mom (in part because it is arming the kids with skills). 

This one in particular is a current and ongoing battle:

Do what you can to validate, teach them coping skills as you learn, and do what you can to get the kids involved in groups where they can interact with other healthy people.

Outstanding advice.  And has meant that I started arranging play dates, outside activities, etc.  Because mom has alienated many of their friends (and friends parents).  For example, my youngest two best friends have withdrawn from being her friend (first one then the other) because of parental disagreements.  My wife pulled them from our very good public school system due to disagreement with a teacher - which just means that much more social isolation.

My son has one friend that has been a HUGE help to him (his friends mother is a psychologist, and I wonder how much she sees).  My youngest I am fighting to keep engaged socially.  My middle the wife has emotionally attached to every breath of every day and it is a real concern she is being groomed as a lifelong codepedent.  A daily battle, and only so many hours in a day.

[yeeter]

Also, please refrain from telling your kids that you stay with their mom because of them.  It puts a lot of pressure and responsibility on the kids to think they are the cause of you staying in such a miserable situation when she is raging etc.  I know you do not mean it that way but most kids won't understand the way you do mean it. 

I did do this when my son asked me straight out why I stayed there.  At the time I felt I was being honest (he is very insightful about the BS factor, all my kids are insightful).  We manage through events together (talking about what may or may not 'upset mom'.  And I do intervene when things start going off the rail.  Sometimes it feels like me and the kids 'are all in it together' trying to help each other out.  But by no means is it the ideal situation.

And what my son has experienced at 14 is different than what my daughter has experienced at 10, in part due to the changes in dynamics from skills learned on this website. 

But thank you for this reminder, valid and heard.

Sometimes I think, who knows, maybe in another 10 years it will be a tenable relationship... .(smh)

[Wrongturn1]

Another possible aspect not discussed above is that there is some research out there suggesting that BPD may have a genetic component, meaning that the genetic seeds of BPD may be present in your children*. 

This is something I think about a lot when I see some of my wife's problems with negative self image and emotional control manifesting in our D10.  It is one of my big concerns in life that D10 will grow up to be just like her mom, so I spend a lot of time encouraging her, helping her establish an identity of her own, and doing father-daughter activities together.  Our S13 does not seem to manifest the same degree of concerning traits, so I feel more comfortable about his development.


* Of course, I expect that the home environment would also be very influential in the formation of a BPD personality.  Still, although their childhood situations have been drastically different, it's striking to see how our D10's personality mirrors parts of my uBPDw's personality (not in a healthy way).

[sylviashea]

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[Notwendy]

While the genetics can be concerning, my own opinion is that the chances of passing on family dysfunction patterns is higher- and not just from the person with BPD. My mother is the only one with BPD in the immediate family ( there are some relatives of hers I suspect and one who I know has it- but that is a distant cousin).

I did pick up from "fleas" ( learned behaviors) from my mother, but I do not have BPD. The parent who influenced me the most was my father- both great influences and also some I have to work on. I only saw my mother as the not normal one- perceived my father as being the normal one and a victim of her behavior. It was only when I needed to deal with my own co-dependency traits that I realized them in him- how we kids felt we needed to be co-dependent as well. We knew BPD was not normal, but to us, co-dependency was considered not only normal, but desirable.

Given the choice between my two parental role models, it was far better to not have BPD behaviors,  however, this didn't mean I was without dysfunctional behaviors myself.

Then there were the secondary effects of growing up with this kind of dysfunction. Children have different constitutions and resilience- that may be genetic and environment. Then there are the different roles in the family. I was the scapegoat. The result of this is low self esteem and not feeling loved. A sibling was the golden child. This sibling also received a lot of good attention from BPD mother but struggles with enmeshment. Do not overlook behaviors like depression, anxiety, eating disorders, drug or alcohol abuse but they could be the result of environment, not the child having BPD.

I would also caution you about interpreting your children's behavior as BPD. An aspect of BPD is emotional immaturity and that is what children are. Some behaviors are normal for children and inappropriate for adults. I recall fearing my hormonal pre-teen was going to turn out like my mother. She acted like my mother in ways but she was a typical hormonal pre-teen and these behaviors were age related. Deviant behaviors like school failure, drug/alcohol abuse, crime, bullying- are concerns, but temper tantrums in children and teens acting like they came from another planet are probably age appropriate.

Lest you think all kids are destined to be messed up - genetics or environment, I think overall some kids come out relatively OK. We may have things we need to work on, but I think overall, in my family, we are kind and caring people, we have jobs, families and friends that we care about. Just do as much as you can to build resilience in your kids and get them to professional counseling as needed.

[Wrongturn1]

It was only when I needed to deal with my own co-dependency traits that I realized them in him- how we kids felt we needed to be co-dependent as well. We knew BPD was not normal, but to us, co-dependency was considered not only normal, but desirable.

Notwendy:  Great points here!  Lately I have had some concerns over the accommodations my S13 has been making for my uBPDw... .I would hate to see him turn out as codependent as I once was and occasionally still am. 

Also, in thinking about S13's future romantic relationships, I wonder how I can help him understand what normal behavior actually looks like.  My uBPDw sometimes says things to him like "all girls are this emotional" in an apparent attempt to normalize her behavior.  I want to find appropriate ways to point out to him that, unlike his mom, most healthy people don't binge drink and cry while decorating the Christmas tree, routinely go to bed at 6 PM, etc.

[Notwendy]

There were several ways I tried to raise kids who would have emotionally healthy relationships. I mostly focused on reinforcing their view of things and their boundaries- that "trust your gut" feeling when they felt uncomfortable around certain people and their ability to stick up for themselves. There are all kind of opportunities- the other kids at school and other adults, friendships, and even dating when they are ready for it ( a more difficult situation as if you don't like their date saying something may backfire).

I knew that my BPD mothers behavior wasn't normal. Your kids will see that not all mothers go to pieces decorating the tree at other people's homes when they visit friends. I could see that many of my friends had mothers who were not like mine.

What I think made me vulnerable to being with people who were hurtful to me was that I was taught to ignore that boundary. My own mother was allowed to be hurtful to me and I was not allowed to speak up about it or say it wasn't OK to do that. I learned that to be loved in my family I had to tolerate it and pretend it didn't happen. I learned to hide parts of myself from people. If I went to an adult saying "Mommy hurt my feelings" the answer from mother was "it was your fault' or my father " don't upset your mother".

So when my kids come to me saying "someone hurt my feelings" I validate that. Yes, so and so hurt your feelings and I don't care who it is- family or the school bully- but I want them to trust their feelings so I don't protect family members by invalidating that. I can validate the feeling without triangulating the person however also consider counseling. A counselor is a true safe person for a child and especially a teen who may not want to talk to a parent. I tried hard to be a safe person to talk to about anything. So if they were upset about a friend, or someone made them feel uncomfortable- I would reinforce that- not to make them paranoid about any relationship but to reinforce their feelings " if this isn't good for me, I don't need to be friends with this person.

I believe that boundaries are key to this and that kids develop natural boundaries. They don't have filters on their feelings . It is when they are invalidated that they don't pay attention to what is natural to them.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother says things like "all families have disagreements like this" ( no they don't). She wrote off our issues as "just typical mother daughter issues that all teens have with their mothers". Then I became a mother of a teen and it wasn't like that.  

It helped to have other role models for mothers- relatives, friends' mothers as examples. As your son gets older he will spend time at his friends' houses and see other mothers. If you know other females who can be examples- like relatives, then let him spend time with their families.