The Chat - She's scared of me

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

On the weekend my uBPDw (who want's a divorce) had a chat. She wanted to discuss selling the house and telling the kids, however after discussing with people here I derailed the process a little bit. I do not want a divorce and feel that she has not show consistent resolve to achieve the divorce she 'tells' me she so desperately wants. She wrote me a quasi threatening email at the beginning of Dec17 telling me we would be telling the kids on the 6th Jan and putting the house on the market then... .that came and went. She was given instructions and wording for the decree nisi in the first week of Nov17, that has yet to be done.

So, one of the consistent themes of fleeting discussions we have is that she cannot be in a relationship with me any longer as she is scared of me, the kids are scared of me and that they cannot live that way.

Yet again I find myself soul searching to see where this fear has come from and whether or not it is justified. A fear that I actually don't doubt is real for her, at least in the moment. She claims the realisation that she does in fact live in fear was brought to the surface by some dear friends of hers, one buddy armchair psychologist and a man she's had an emotional affair with in her church.

Do I get angry/frustrated on rare occasions? Yes
Have I raged? Yes
Have I hit inanimate objects in the house? Yes (very very infrequently)
Have I smacked the kids bottoms? Yes, with warning (counting) and not hard
Have I scared the children? Yes

The emotional chaos in our relationship has ebbed and flowed from off the charts to always there. I have always found it enormously frustrating unable to work out why I wasn't treated like a normal guy. I had no knowledge of BPD until Apr17 so had endured 19.5yrs of a relationship without any tools or any idea why I was being treated this way. I was treated like a deviant yet I was anything but. I was treated like a lazy person yet was anything but. I was treated as though I was romantically void yet my W was the center of my universe and pretty much all of my actions had her in mind. I was not aware that when I was called an a-hole for going out it was her abandonment fears... .same story, it was all my fault and she has limited scope for self reflection. First couple of years of our marriage were a disaster, huge arguments, very pushy shovey. I recall one occassion where I held her by the shoulders and shouted "why do you treat me like such a XXXX?".

After 2 more recycles we had 3 kids. My wife had very chaotic boundaries/rules with the kids so I felt the need to have firm rules and felt I needed to compensate for my wife's desire to allow the kids to do what they wanted one day and then shout at them and drag me into the triangle the next day. The kids ultimately ignored her or questioned her at every step. I became Victorian Dad I guess in an attempt to salve the stress I could see it caused my W... .I rescued. My approach was strict and domineering. I was the head of the house and I should lead by example and have firm rules which were consistent. This did not go well... .needless to say, I entered as the rescuer and I ALWAYS left as the perpetrator. A combination of Trauma reenactment, emotional memory (I believe that every time I shouted at the kids it took W back to the early days of our marriage, emotional memory has no time stamp and pretty sure it added to her CPTSD from childhood).

So, do I understand (or at least think I can rationalise her fear), yes.

Do I feel guilt or feel that I am abnormal? No. I didn't deal with things well, but I wasn't abusive.
If I had have known what I know now, would I act in the same manner? No. 
Do I react differently and separate my wife's experience from the kids behaviour? Yes

Since my W has ultimately ex communicated me bar a few conversations ala weekend, and when communication moves away from her desired agenda she ultimately runs away, I have no way of imparting this information on her and can just illustrate I have changed my behavior. The crux of the issue is BPD (as far as I believe). Without BPD how do you unlock the reasoning behind the rest of the analysis?

I'm confused (well I'm not really) as well. W tells me she is scared yet she leaves me to look after the kids 5x a week to go out. She allowed me to take them away for the week whilst she went to a Christian conference and she did not stop me taking them on holiday abroad for a week. Is the abuse claim to a huge diversion tactic to play victim and destract attention away from the fact that she's had an affair and now she's writing history in her head in reverse... .feeling = fact.

Oct15 just before her emotional affair started she sent me a random whatsap saying "Just wanted to tell you how much I love you".

[Enabler]

On the weekend my uBPDw (who want's a divorce) had a chat. She wanted to discuss selling the house and telling the kids, however after discussing with people here I derailed the process a little bit. I do not want a divorce and feel that she has not show consistent resolve to achieve the divorce she 'tells' me she so desperately wants. She wrote me a quasi threatening email at the beginning of Dec17 telling me we would be telling the kids on the 6th Jan and putting the house on the market then... .that came and went. She was given instructions and wording for the decree nisi in the first week of Nov17, that has yet to be done.

So, one of the consistent themes of fleeting discussions we have is that she cannot be in a relationship with me any longer as she is scared of me, the kids are scared of me and that they cannot live that way.

Yet again I find myself soul searching to see where this fear has come from and whether or not it is justified. A fear that I actually don't doubt is real for her, at least in the moment. She claims the realisation that she does in fact live in fear was brought to the surface by some dear friends of hers, one buddy armchair psychologist and a man she's had an emotional affair with in her church.

Do I get angry/frustrated on rare occasions? Yes
Have I raged? Yes
Have I hit inanimate objects in the house? Yes (very very infrequently)
Have I smacked the kids bottoms? Yes, with warning (counting) and not hard
Have I scared the children? Yes

The emotional chaos in our relationship has ebbed and flowed from off the charts to always there. I have always found it enormously frustrating unable to work out why I wasn't treated like a normal guy. I had no knowledge of BPD until Apr17 so had endured 19.5yrs of a relationship without any tools or any idea why I was being treated this way. I was treated like a deviant yet I was anything but. I was treated like a lazy person yet was anything but. I was treated as though I was romantically void yet my W was the center of my universe and pretty much all of my actions had her in mind. I was not aware that when I was called an a-hole for going out it was her abandonment fears... .same story, it was all my fault and she has limited scope for self reflection. First couple of years of our marriage were a disaster, huge arguments, very pushy shovey. I recall one occassion where I held her by the shoulders and shouted "why do you treat me like such a XXXX?".

After 2 more recycles we had 3 kids. My wife had very chaotic boundaries/rules with the kids so I felt the need to have firm rules and felt I needed to compensate for my wife's desire to allow the kids to do what they wanted one day and then shout at them and drag me into the triangle the next day. The kids ultimately ignored her or questioned her at every step. I became Victorian Dad I guess in an attempt to salve the stress I could see it caused my W... .I rescued. My approach was strict and domineering. I was the head of the house and I should lead by example and have firm rules which were consistent. This did not go well... .needless to say, I entered as the rescuer and I ALWAYS left as the perpetrator. A combination of Trauma reenactment, emotional memory (I believe that every time I shouted at the kids it took W back to the early days of our marriage, emotional memory has no time stamp and pretty sure it added to her CPTSD from childhood).

So, do I understand (or at least think I can rationalise her fear), yes.

Do I feel guilt or feel that I am abnormal? No. I didn't deal with things well, but I wasn't abusive.
If I had have known what I know now, would I act in the same manner? No. 
Do I react differently and separate my wife's experience from the kids behaviour? Yes

Since my W has ultimately ex communicated me bar a few conversations ala weekend, and when communication moves away from her desired agenda she ultimately runs away, I have no way of imparting this information on her and can just illustrate I have changed my behavior. The crux of the issue is BPD (as far as I believe). Without BPD how do you unlock the reasoning behind the rest of the analysis?

I'm confused (well I'm not really) as well. W tells me she is scared yet she leaves me to look after the kids 5x a week to go out. She allowed me to take them away for the week whilst she went to a Christian conference and she did not stop me taking them on holiday abroad for a week. Is the abuse claim to a huge diversion tactic to play victim and destract attention away from the fact that she's had an affair and now she's writing history in her head in reverse... .feeling = fact.

Oct15 just before her emotional affair started she sent me a random whatsap saying "Just wanted to tell you how much I love you".

[Notwendy]

Your wife may have BPD but your children do not. I assume that they are getting older now, and it is great that you have all this time with them. Since you have some regrets about how you handled their discipline before, you can make amends with them and deal with their possible fears. That is probably a delicate discussion- you don't want to triangulate with your wife and they may be too young to understand the larger picture. But you could start with- "I know at times I have been angry and not handled it well  but I am working on this. I love you and if you every feel scared of Daddy you can talk to me about it" and let them think about this. Opening the door to them telling you their feelings- and validating them- is a start.  You can do this no matter what the state of your marriage.

With your wife, it is a bit more difficult since her fears have been triggered. Yes, we only can do what we know at the time. I too went through many years adding to the drama in my marriage, not knowing any better. I don't have a temper, but I would cry and just scream at my H out of frustration. He was the one to rage but mostly kept it invisible from the kids. I found a note in their room- saying it is all my fault. Wow, that was tough to see.

Have you done any counseling or work on being enabling? I was motivated to do this- not completely for the marriage but also for me and my kids. I didn't want them to be subjected to this drama.

A tough thing to deal with is the twisted thinking in BPD. To me, they perceive things through the filter of their emotions. You could say or do something and yet, they can see it in a different way- my observation is through the victim perspective. It feels crazy. If I ask a question - " you are hammering me". If I am busy " you are ignoring me". One thing I had to learn to do is to listen to this without defending or reacting, because it feels so eerily absurd. I also had to accept that I can not change or influence how someone feels or thinks. If your wife feels scared of you- those are her feelings.

I know you don't want to be divorced, and I don't know how to stop that. People do have their own choices. However, I also have seen where talks and threats are also just that. You can see this already by the passing of the Jan 6 day. Yes, these are disturbing, but they may be empty threats. Also the "scared of you" statements- you could validate the feelings but her perspective is probably not something you can control.

Then there are amends. I like the wording in the 12 steps- be willing to make amends unless that could be harmful to you or someone else. The wording is key- be willing is different from actually doing it. And to consider if it would help or be harmful to anyone. My own opinion is that a confession to a pwBPD could be a set up for more trouble- especially if divorce is on the table- as that could be twisted against you. They are already in victim mode. However, being able to discuss your regrets with a safe person- a counselor is also a step to forgiveness. And who needs to give the forgiveness? You- we often leave ourselves out of the apology. Forgive yourself for your mistakes, you are only human and you did all you knew to do. This amends can be an internal conversation.

[Enabler]

Thanks Notwendy,

I agree with you about the children and have spent the last 18 months flipping the relationship on it's head. It was tough to start with as I had to work out what all my triggers were which was difficult when I didn't have the missing piece of the puzzle... .BPD. I started to analyse my behaviour questioning why I was trying to control them. Yes, I was teaching them my values such as tidying up after themselves, being aware of the impact we have on others and having respect for parents, but I also noticed I was trying to reduce chaos for reducing chaos's sake. I would intervene in an irrational argument between my W and kids only to be turned upon by my W.

I was seeing a T every week for 6m and now see him every 3 weeks as a bit of a catch up with specific issues. I love the conversations I have with my kids now, I am open and honest with them. I do not hold them to the illusion that I am flawless or infallible. I try to unravel the ball of string that my W has inadvertently created with her disordered behaviour and try and equip the kids with life skills of smart choices, responsibility and control of their emotions. Our D9 lost it the other day as she does and whilst throwing a strop jumped on the sofa and broke one of the springs. She went into another room and cried. I went and found her and said:
Enable - What's up donkey?
D9 - You and mummy are going to be cross with me about the sofa   
Enabler - How do you know that? Do I look cross to you? Why should I be cross with you?
D9 - No you don't but you should be because I broke the sofa
Enabler - What is done is done, what I'm more concerned with is why it happened? What happened the D9 and how do we stop it happening in future?
D9 - I was angry and I jumped on the sofa. I shouldn't get angry?
Enabler - Being angry is normal, you can't help feeling angry, it's okay. The problem with being too angry is that you do silly things you don't mean to do. This time it was just a spring on the sofa, what if it was something more precious? Maybe you could try and be less angry and tone it down a bit.

I have been able to take a bigger picture, outcome view on things. What do I want to achieve with the girls? I want them to learn how to calm down and have a reasoned discussion. Adding fuel to the fire when they're dysregulated is pointless. I've also been practicing Ju-Jitsu Parenting and my word it works. Sitting on the floor when telling them off, sitting them on the stairs higher up as well, laying down with them to discuss things, giving them my time and attention.

I cannot control my W as you say and I cannot make her see that things would be different if she gave it time. I cannot change the experience she thinks she has had and I can't change the people she chooses to put on her war council. It maybe too late but I will not be retiring to the bar until the judge rubber stamps it. I'm of the opinion that it's never over when theirs kids involved.

Ju-­jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position
C.A. Childress, Psy.D. (2013)

[ozmatoz]

Enabler, I had the "the kids and I are afraid of you" statement thrown at me mid summer last year when things were getting really bad.  She would claim that she needed to take the kids and run out of state to be with her family because I couldn't be trusted to control my anger or to keep the kids safe.  Mind you this was coming from the same person that was arrested a couple months later for DV... .

BPD craziness aside it did make me stop to think.  Had I been overly angry?  Had I raised my voice more or too often?  Had I done a poor job keeping it away from the kids?

The answer is yes, to all of those.  I found I was not coping with my frustrations.  I was still trying to convince uBPDw to change her ways and to stop attacking me.  Out of those frustrations my temper certainly was heading in the wrong direction.

I am glad that you have been able to step back and realize what it is that you are trying to do.  Can't draw a map if you don't know where you are going. 

Realizing that I can't control her behavior has given me more energy to bob and weave and just adapt to it on the fly.  I have found both D11 and D16 more receptive to me when I find ways to "roll with the punches".  As kids the last thing they want is to deal with confrontation even if that seems easier to do than to find ways to adapt.

As far as the "current" feeling of being scared of you, I think you are on the right track to move past this tool she is using.  Bad news is another tool will be right behind it but you will have at least gained some experience in keeping the peace.

My uBPDw has cycled back to the "you suck and I can't wait to upgrade you" divorce threats, but I have no intentions of helping her along that path.  If she intends to disintegrate our relationship then so be it.  I fought that battle in the triangle arena before and nearly died.  I  wont enter it again.  It will be one more (big) punch me and the kids will have to roll with.  It will suck for sure, but I know the kids know its not me and I will have to use that trust to help them through it.

crank the tunes,
-Oz

[Enabler]

How's this for contradiction, I got "you're abusive to me and the kids and you scare us, but can you look after the kids for a week?" Almost within the same sentence!

An issue I'm rapidly identifying is that the children are massively invalidating. As they grow up and get opinions and have awareness of choice the intensity of the invalidation is ramping up. The result is a tinderbox of childish emotions firing off at each other.

I'm finding it empowering to be able to read what is going on better and defuse situations, but at the same time my W must find this confusing as I'm no longer playing to the rules or playing to her narrative. I'm not looking forward to the next chapter of the game!

[formflier]

Enabler,

I think you can continue to "flip" things around for the betterment of your family.

I think you should get interested in some of the lingo in Christianity and start using it with your kids and ask your wife to participate.

Edification is a wonderful word.  Many scriptures talk about this and it is all about "building up another" with your words.

You can also look into the principle of "grace before truth"  (I think God figured out SET before we did... .)

Just a few things and the conversations are much healthier... the kids are getting real lessons and you are marginalizing your dysfunctional wife , while at the same time holding the door open for her to assume a "functional role"

So... if she can focus on teaching and giving proper examples of edification... .let her roll with it.

If she wants to judge others... .well... ask her to teach you/show you where they comes from... .very high entertainment value there...

FF

[SlyQQ]

people with BPD are scared of almost everyone, why are you surprised she trusts you with the children exactly

its win win for her if it is proven true.

[Enabler]

SlyQQ, I’m not surprised that she trusts me to look after the kids as the evidence of the last 9 years points to me being highly proficient and proactive in the art of looking after and raising little ones... .but it’s highly contradictory to her arguement that I’m a risk to her and the kids. I wonder how others square that circle!

FF, noted on the teaching. My theological understanding is pretty good although not to the point where I could point to scripture. Her arguement for anything religious is “well you don’t have a relationship with god so what would you know”. Her notes suggest she sees me as something to be sanctified from, I guess evil although that word has yet to be used.

Currently with regards to the children I’m teaching based around values eg D9 is having a movie party, a couple of people have been invited to stay for a sleepover. One of the girls invited to stay mentioned to anothe pair of twins about the sleepover and now they think they are staying. The twins are not very kind to D9 and are a bit shouty and typically upset her. My point to D9 was that it was her party and she should aim to achieve the outcome that she wanted, not the outcome that was being forced upon her. Although the twins might be upset they are not staying it was perfectly reasonable of her to not invite them and this isn’t an occasion where she should feel obliged to accept a sub optimal situation. For me it’s important to make a distinction between when it is and when it isn’t unkind to get what you want rather than accommodating everyone’s negative emotions... .else she’ll end up like me who feels obliged to lay down and be run over for the betterment of others. I couldn’t help thinking to myself “I should heed my own advice here.”

[SlyQQ]

They don't have to square the circle, be very careful though , if your partner dysregulates it could become very harmful to you and the kids avoid arguing with your partner if at all possible, state what you believe once and leave it at that , she may scream at you but stay cool and do not respond if at all possible , you are walking on quicksand and this, as it is, is my best advice from sitting here, please take some precautionary measures for if things go badly, but needless to say, your p if she finds out, will take them in the worse possible light.

Your P will also be looking for signs that you are trying to turn the kids against her, though it will appear a very haphazard approach, they often move with no clear direction until there mind is set ,

I wish you the best , be careful.

  

[Enabler]

I hear you and am watching and listening for a change in the narrative. However, for the last 20 years the narrative has been Waif... .I am helpless, I need to be rescued, I am under attack, I am abused, Nothing is my fault, I am not responsible for my actions. Taking off with the kids would involve taking responsibility. My fear is that the attack narrative becomes so extreme that she applies for a restraining order on the grounds of... .errrr... ."I feel abused".

[formflier]

Enabler,


I would think a good response we she talks about "your" relationship with God is to ask her if she would like to listen...

or

"Would you like me to share about my relationship with God?"

if she says yes... .

Schedule a time for a week later.

if she asks why the delay...

"I need to spend time in deep prayer and reflection to help guide my words.  It seems obvious my previous words have been misunderstood"

You are not "directly" confronting how presumptuous this is to "tell" someone about their relationships... but the point is being made.   And she is being denied "what she wants".

FF

[Enabler]

FF, oh how wonderful it would be to have the opportunity to share what my opinions are about anything. She has absolutely no desire to resolve anything, and by resolve I mean clarify understanding or enlighten herself. Her understanding about my relationship with God came at a time when I was very angry with the remnants of faith I had.

My comment "God either doesn't exist or he is a ____"

In isolation that seems pretty clear cut for the man upstairs. Now, here's the back story:

Dec13 Friday - Dad diagnosed with small cell lung cancer and told he has 3m to live with chemo
Weekend - Goes home and prays like mad, reads his usual bible study and it's about Hezekiah (basically prayed to God and lived another 15years), anyway thinks nothing of this and is still sad.
Monday - gets a call from Dr and told they might have made an error on the biopsy and it was actually aggressive lymphoma with good chance of survival with treatment... .So he's gone from 100% probability he'll be dead in 5 years to 80% probability he'll be alive in 5 years.
Dec13-Sep14 - has chemo and stays inside not playing golf as that's what specialists told him to do... .a year written off but he's going to be fine because God said so in the prophesy (Hezekiah). Prays as usual.
Sep14 - chemo does wonders but there's still a little bit left, gets offered a trial drug, prays and asks for guidance and goes for trial drug. It doesn't work and cancer explodes. Gets kicked off the trial and sent into medical abyss.
Nov14 - Mar15 - Gets picked up as not being treated, has radio therapy, no impact
Mar15 - Is in really really bad shape and only has 1 lung functional. Gets put on super powerful chemo which makes him hallucinate that he's cutting up my sister on the kitchen table and so incapacitated that he's soiling himself in bed. MASSIVELY traumatized. Is critically ill for 2 weeks and totally out of it. Heart stops due to rocketting BP with chemo added to his system. Slow recovery and he's totally broken
Apr15 - My sister sees a rainbow in the sky and we're all reminded of Gods promise after the flood... .then W sees one, I'm sceptical since it is April and you get showers etc in the UK... .anyway, I'm at a friends house, his house is on the side of a valley, I have my back to the window recounting the rainbow thing and how the family is getting excited about the prophecy and promise to my friend being a bit factitious... .he says "What like that one?". Out the window is a huge rainbow going over the valley.
May15 - they try more chemo and the same thing happens, heart stops due to blood pressure and he's rushed to central london specialist hospital. Tells my Mum "I release you" basically his way of telling Mum that she can remarry after he is going to die, and refuses more treatment.
Jun15 - Dies, a shadow of a man having spent the last 18m of his life inside being idle which was the complete polar opposite to his life's existence.

Now... .people die, good people die... .I get that. But why did God send such clear prophesies and signs to a man whom had devoted much of his life to serving god and proliferating the word of God? It didn't improve his life, nor did it mean that he was able to spread Gods word more. It didn't even enable him to spend more quality time with my mother or us kids. So... .I was deducing, and still am, God either doesn't exist or he is a ____.

W needs no clarification of this, and KNOWS, even though it was said at a very emotional time for me, an emotional time not made better by her behaviour or her inability to grasp my reasoning or participate in a logical and rational conversation about it. I am not sure she is comfortable with me having different views on things, it's like her left hand thinking something different from her right hand... .and my rational arguments invalidate her feeling-facts.

[formflier]

I'm so sorry that you and your Dad (entire family) went through that.  How old was your Dad?

You've asked the question that I and many others asked.  "Why God?"  "Why did this happen?"

Personally, I think the process of asking why, of being angry with God and not listening for a while, then asking why and perhaps listening... .perhaps just understanding that there are some things in life that are just too heavy to carry.

I mean... .there just aren't explanations sometimes.  And all those people out there (we know they are out there)... that claim you can only praise God and be happy... .well... .that's just bunk.

If anyone can take anger... .if anyone can deal with someone screaming "how could you... ."... .if anyone can wait around for someone who has walked away... .that would be God. 

Honestly, there is anger in me towards God.  I'm glad he is in my life and I can talk to... .express that anger without worrying about SET... or rules... or timing... .or eggshells.  Somehow it helps things get all sorted out.

Hang in there my friend.  I would ask that you listen far... .far less to you wife about God.  Perhaps take a walk and look for that rainbow.  Perhaps just some alone time with a hot cup of coffee.  At some point start listening to God again, or even start out with a one way conversation... .get some stuff off your chest.

   

FF

[Enabler]

My Father was 69.

You know that sound your hear in your head when you put your fingers in your ears and say bla bla bla bla bla... .well that's the noise I hear when I hear my wife talking about Christianity.

I have yet to find anyone who can answer my question. even the film "The Shack" which I love falls short on this occasion, although it did serve to help me in the forgiveness of my wife.

[formflier]

I hear much the same noise from my wife.  Perhaps a bit more difficult because on some things she is completely reasonable and "spot on" with her reading of scripture.   I get the impression that your wife is kinda always stuck on "her version".  Right?

I've not watched "The Shack" and only know the most general outline of it, so best I skip any comment.  I'm glad you found it meaningful.

I'm going to say though... .(in case you missed it)... .the point is there is no answer to the question.

I'm also not a fan of people that use Romans 8:28 in a trite and insensitive way.  We all intellectually understand that life is about maturing us and so it's not "inaccurate" to say that God uses everything in our lives, the good and the bad, to help mature is (for our good).  Yet we (most of us) understand that doesn't give any comfort whatsoever to someone grieving, especially when it is a fresh loss.

Permit me to back away from God and share an example that is personal to me, yet likely less personal to you.

I've spent years of my life afloat in the middle (and all other parts) of the ocean.  From horizon to horizon, water is all that you can see.  There are some days it is so beautiful, peaceful... .on other days it is stark and unforgiving.

I've often wondered how something so beautiful sometimes comes with such a price.  I've asked why... .  The hours I have spent looking out and considering the ocean as cruel because it swallowed up my friends... .never to be seen again.  Yet... .while watching the sun go down at night, that same ocean will bend the light in a way to inspire the saddest of hearts. 

I can't explain how those two things go together and are true.  Somehow that gives me comfort. 

FF

[Enabler]

My W believe's everything is God's work. I do not see it that way. She trusts in God completely for everything. In a way I believe it is influencing her inactivity with regards to this divorce. She believes that she has to do nothing as God will do everything for her.

An example of how my W thinks about God. A really good friend of ours died in May17 after a very short battle with cancer... .well it wasn't a battle, it just obliterated him very quickly. Anyway, he was a churchgoer but Atheist, he liked doing the sound desk and was very philisophical. He was on the Autistic spectrum which I think helped be an excellent architect. His wife had struggled with the fact that he wouldn't go to heaven since he didn't believe in Jesus. In a church band practice (small church) my wife was talking to her fellow band players about who gets into heaven. She believed that God reveals himself to all people on earth and gives everyone the opportunity to convert to Christianity. Not at the pearly gates, on earth... .I gave a few examples of the Muslim kid in Pakistan who's only ever known Islam, the nomad in Mongolia, the tribes of the amazon who've never had other human contact. She wouldn't budge, as she "felt" this was true and I couldn't prove definitive that this was not the case.

Dreams of prisons = God telling her to go and do gods work in prisons... .not attachment trauma

She believed that God gave her an inappropriate relationship with another man in the village. Despite multiple groups of religious leaders telling her otherwise (these people just weren't listening to God as much as her and didn't get it).

It's very much open to her interpretation.

FF, I know there's no answer, it's too much of a contradiction.

[formflier]

Unfortunately... .your wife's "view" of religion is far too common.

I would let her sort that out for herself... .

Whatever you can do in order to limit religious "debates" is likely good. 

If you get to a good and solid place where YOU can do this without being triggered... .then perhaps asking her to show you or "join you" in reading about edification would perhaps be meaningful.

Any debate of "yes it is... .no it isn't" will play to her BPD strengths... .avoid that.

Hang in there man... .you have a lot on your plate... .

FF

[SlyQQ]

Magical thinking that crosses into religion ( even satanism ) is very common in BPD

Denial is part of there mode of existence and things like this provide a very convenient vehicle to enact it.

[Enabler]

It’s sad, I read other women’s accounts of behaviour that is clearly abusive such as 5xFive’s account of her husband raging at her and following her around the house and I see myself... .or at least times when I HAVE been like that.

I have been so desperate to correct the narrative to some semblance of normality that I have almost baited my wife into accepting it. I’ve been so frustrated in the past hearing her wild accusations, her suggestions that I’m rotten or her inability to just be damn reasonable that I felt compelled to go on until she accepted it. I guess it’s the definition of insanity when you repeat the same action time after time resulting in the same negative outcome but I guess I was just so blissfully unaware that the mind could work in this way that I thought I could change her mind! I know it must have been frightening for her on the rare occasions I perused her around the house begging her to not treat me this way!

Arggggggg... .the response to stop abuse is in itself abusive. Oh to have known about BPD 20yrs ago!

[Cat Familiar]

So sorry, Enabler, about your father.   

And your wife's view of Christianity is designed to suit her motives. Kinda pointless to even get into discussions about faith sometimes with a pwBPD. It's often all about them. Very solipsistic and they cling to their interpretation desperately.

I've often found amusement in my husband's study of Tibetan Buddhism. I've mentioned here on these boards how he has (no exaggeration) thousands of books on the subject. And typically at least two books arrive in the mail every month to add to his library.

Yet, when he was frequently dysregulating in the past, he had seemingly no awareness of anything Buddhist that he has been studying for the last several decades.

To respond to the "I'm afraid of you" pattern. I've heard this from my husband. He outweighs me by 85 pounds and is 6 inches taller than me. I don't think I've ever raised my voice toward him in all the years we've been together--well, maybe a couple of times. I don't know where this fear of me comes from. I'm definitely fit and more athletic than him. I do know how to throw a punch (martial arts training many years ago), but I am a total pacifist.

I think the answer to my question of why he fears me is that I'm strong and steady emotionally and I don't back down; I keep to my values. When his emotions and opinions can be all over the map in a random way, being around someone who is stolid is most likely intimidating.

[formflier]

So... .where crazy stories stop and paranoia begins is unclear and something we should not put much effort into.

In my relationship paranoia is pretty much gone with a disciplined removal of invalidation.

For reference, my wife "knew" where my baby lived and had this big story about how I would "sneak" back from my military trips... .have romper room time with various women and then she would pick me up at airport after they dropped me off.  All of the papers on that day were part of an elaborate ruse to confuse my wife and keep my harem a secret.

"Correcting the narrative was something I used to do and essentially each time I would do it, the "paranoia monster" got bigger.

"Correcting the narrative" is almost always invalidating.  I struggle to think of when it would NOT be invalidating... .

Instead of "working on her"... ."work on yourself"... .convince yourself that you will let her believe what she believes and it won't affect YOUR BELIEFS... .at all.

Last:  I used to chase around paranoid claims and expend great amounts of energy... .my wife's ability to "POOF" to a new reality frustrated me to no end.

I had a paternity test center ready to go.  I was going to test myself, test one of my kids (to validate the test), and then get this baby tested (to get me off the hook).

POOF... .

"Ok then... .but you still had sex with her... ."

Remember... .crazy will protect itself.  When she "knew" the theory would be disproved... .POOF... it never happened and went to another theory that I would have to "solve" for my wife.

Stop solving...

FF

[Enabler]

Cat - Like many things that my W says, there are always elements of truth in what she says but her interpretation is always skewed to the negative. I can see why she is scared of me and I can see why she thinks the kids are scared of me. I am scary when I'm cross, but isn't that sometimes the point? I remember at points when I was a kid my mother and my father being furious with me and I knew without a shadow of doubt that I was in serious trouble... .were they bad parents? No, not in the slightest. My W obsesses about how my face changes when I am cross, again, this is pointed out as abnormal, like I'm some kind of rabid animal. Being angry isn't pleasant, it's not a good thing but it is a natural reaction. One that I am now feeling ashamed of even though I can rationalise and justify the reasons why i was angry and in hindsight would be similarly angry about most of those situations again. I don't know whether this influences her translation but her father has never shown any anger at all and leaves that up to my MIL. He didn't show any anger towards his W either when she was berating the children, nor any anger when she was berating my W as an adult... .so who's wrong? The passive bystander who never got angry and watched abuse and did nothing, or the man who shows his displeasure and highlights injustice by aggressively voicing his opinion? Possibly neither.

FF - I'm now in the club with not correcting the narrative. I see how it was futile and have been consciously avoiding (as best I am able to about turn habits of a lifetime) any attempt to straighten out the crazy. It hurts that someone is capable of thinking the opposite to your core personal values, that you are selfish, uncaring, unsympathetic and unkind, when you believe that your thoughts and actions speak loudly of kind, loving, caring, generous in time not in money... .thinking of getting that tattooed actually!

Crazy has 2 options when backed into the corner of evidence based reality... .create reality that is aligned to crazy, adapt narrative. Just as shame the 3rd option of accepting they are wrong is not an option.

[formflier]

FF - I'm now in the club with not correcting the narrative. 

Good!   

It's not time to celebrate and get a Tat... it's time to start planning the next step of where you fit into your "dance" with BPD.

1.  Not correcting is a start
2.  Perhaps label the next step "listening appropriately".   I'm still struggling to label this step appropriately because "not listening" is really not accurate.  I mean... .who wants to be ignored.  We know they are trying to dysfunctionally express something that means a great deal to them. 

Somehow in step to their is a friendly ear, mild concern... .an offer to reflect back and make sure there is proper understanding... .an offer to understand if this is new concern or if there is new information... .and then somehow move forward to ask "what specifically do you want me to understand about this? "  (keep handing responsibility back to them)

I get it chances of your wife getting all the way through that (at this point) is zero.  As always, boundaries apply and when she flips out... .you leave (boundaries will always take precedence).

Over time she will likely get farther and farther into the real story or figure out you don't meet her needs and the story goes away.

Either way... you declare victory and move on.

Thoughts?

FF

[Enabler]

God gave me 2 ears and one mouth for a reason and I am starting to realise what that reason is.

I am to the point where I think there is hidden meaning and motivation in everything... .now this cannot be the case so there has to be some kind of equilibrium where some things are said as they are, and other things have greater depth to them... .and other things are just rude for the sake of being rude.
 
- Times where she tells me how ill or tired she feels and I feel these times are when she wants to connect, wants reassurance that I'm there for her... .pull.
- Times when she messages me for the most inane reasons e.g. Tuesday "How much petrol should I put in the hire car from the garage for driving 2.5miles?". It's not about the petrol, it's about the need to be rescued... .pull.
- Times when she lashes out and is frantic, generally with the feeling of being trapped, controlled. Typically after a tough day where the kids have been invalidating her... .push.
- Times when she's asking me about the family holiday I'm going on with my sisters and mother and currently she's not coming on. I think she wants to come and she's ruminating about the true family experience that she has with my family vs the fake family experience she has with her own. Or she's ruminating about the idea of being abandoned... .push/pull.
- "I want a divorce and this is intolerable"... .on the surface of things this is a push (and I would be wise to take it as so), but actions do not meet words and my rejection or pushback on this topic seems to be met with more inaction so is this actually a pull?

I am not sure it will be possible for me to have a truly genuine relationship with her whilst this analysis doesn't come naturally. I see with my FIL that he has essentially emotionally shut down as a defense to attack and very much become a "yes dear" husband. Never has an opinion, never shows emotion and is VERY slow with his words. Hopefully with practice (if permitted) this "language" will become and auto response for me... .although I will say now, I NEVER want to become my FIL as I feel his inability to stop my MIL from abusing her kids makes him as culpable to the abuse as she was... .more so as she is mentally unaware of her deficiencies.

[Cat Familiar]

I am not sure it will be possible for me to have a truly genuine relationship with her whilst this analysis doesn't come naturally.

I hear you on this. One of my issues when I realized that I would have to entirely change my style of relating/responding to my husband was that I felt a lot of anger. Why me? Why do I have to work so hard while he just can whimsically act out whenever he wants? Well, we know the answer to that. I don't have the personality disorder, he does. Someone has to be the adult in the room. Sigh... .

So after I got over that issue about the "unfairness" and started becoming more strategic with using the tools, I thought, "Well, things are much more peaceful and on track. I can see when the train is rapidly veering around the corner and about to go off the rails, and I can gently pull the emergency brake and start carefully steering it back on track. Whew!"

Then I started thinking, "Wow, in a lot of ways, this truly isn't an authentic relationship because I have information about him that I'm not sharing and strategies I'm consciously applying due to what I know about him. If I were in an authentic relationship, we'd be on equal footing and I wouldn't be having these "meta" analyses of what's going on and how to respond to it."

The next phase has been that lots of these tools that I've struggled to learn and apply are starting to become second nature. I'm applying them in my relationships with friends and acquaintances, and just about everyone I interact with. So, what was originally foreign to my self concept is becoming a part of me and it's improving all of my interactions with others.

So how this applies to my relationship with my husband: things are much smoother and happier between us. When things start going south, I can usually nip it in the bud, or exit gracefully and give him time to "reset". Because I've worked past the resentment, I can be authentically more open and warm to him and that is nurturing our relationship.

I had to take some distance to repair and reset my own knee-jerk responses. Now that there's more warmth between us, there's also more tolerance on his part for me to mis-speak and say something that might hurt his feelings. Of course I avoid that as much as possible, but you know, BPD--it's hard to always understand what might be a wound or a trigger.

In sum, I'm getting to the place where I don't have to be as hyper vigilant with my own word choice and he's becoming more open and tolerant as a result of our relationship being easier and more fun.

[Cat Familiar]

I see with my FIL that he has essentially emotionally shut down as a defense to attack and very much become a "yes dear" husband. Never has an opinion, never shows emotion and is VERY slow with his words. Hopefully with practice (if permitted) this "language" will become and auto response for me... .although I will say now, I NEVER want to become my FIL as I feel his inability to stop my MIL from abusing her kids makes him as culpable to the abuse as she was... .more so as she is mentally unaware of her deficiencies.

Well, my dad did the same. I'm sure he became exhausted trying to reason with my BPD mother and his strategy was to exit mentally, but stay in the room so he couldn't be accused of abandoning her. I remember as a child when he took some night classes and how it affected her. So his means of escape was reading.

After he passed away, I began overseeing my mother's affairs and I realized what a saint he truly was, having to put up with her for so many decades!

[ozmatoz]

So how this applies to my relationship with my husband: things are much smoother and happier between us. When things start going south, I can usually nip it in the bud, or exit gracefully and give him time to "reset". Because I've worked past the resentment, I can be authentically more open and warm to him and that is nurturing our relationship.

Not trying to hijack, just a quick question for Cat... .how long do you think it took before your husband came around to some of this warmth?  After I started setting boundaries and using the tools, my uBPDw went through a bit of an extinction burst because to her it seemed like I was ending the relationship that she knew and was familiar with... .  now I find myself less volatile, less knee-jerk, and very much more open and compassionate.  My wife seems to hate it still and even turns it back on to me that I'm only being nice now because I've realized how awful and demented I am and that no one else would want me, and now that I realize those things about me her wanting a divorce should all of a sudden "make sense"... .  I'm not sure if there is any way to get through to her anymore.

Enabler I too am confused on the push/pull dynamic of the divorce threat... .  I hate you, you suck, this is intolerable (push), but they have no other way of showing they are hurt and really are hoping for us to make a change to make things better (pull).
I find the confusion I feel over this "divorce threat" really gets me stuck.  I try to prepare for the worst, but find I am also reluctant to attempt to achieve whatever "goal" she has in mind to make things better... .  Do you feel like your just going around in circles?  I know I'm getting dizzy.

[Enabler]

So, tonight’s test -

- I’m going to be late home from work due to doing a complicated trade which took some time to complete and book. W is going out at 7. I was not asked or even told about her going out till 5.
- I have a 1.5hr commute out of London.
- I have to fill up with gas (for the yanks) on my way home as I have next to none
- She “has” to be at the local pub for 7 to meet friends before going to another friends for the evening.
- There are a zillion alternative actions such as me dropping her at the friends house but none of these will be tolerable.
- not to be the victim but I get up at 5am to get to work for 7am and I am really the only income of the household.
- if history is anything to go by, the ability to empathise with the fact that her wellbeing relies on my job and it’s very much a needs must role, but is well paid and serves her lifestyle nicely! She will kick off when I get in after 7 which is basically inevitable since I logistically cannot make it home on time.
- I have informed her so but this will count for nothing as I have incomvienienced her.

2 words will instantly spring to mind, one of them not being a very nice word and then a whole bunch of other pent up surrounding her inability to see how much of a colossal ______ she is being and how if any of her friends heard her they would think the same... .but... .I cannot take this path. So, I shall reflect back to her what she is saying and validate... .siiiiiiigh! I just hope there’s at least a shred of something to validate. “You are right, you are going to be late... .” that should do it!

[Enabler]

Do you feel like your just going around in circles?  I know I'm getting dizzy.

Yes and no, there is a glacial direction of travel in our divorce  and some things have been “done” by her to achieve a few divorce like objectives, so it certainly feels like a divorce even though the commitment to the cause is not consistent or intelligent.

I have not sort to achieve any of her divorce aspirations other than agree to attend meetings where my best interests require it, do work on the house where mine and my kids best interests denote it or avoid confrontation where my police history denotes it (I don’t have a police record and my job requires I don’t so it is imperative I avoid false accusations).

Where I did achieve goals for her was that I spent a long time begging, sending her emails explaining how I thought our relationship was xyz, I pushed for marriage counselling (disaster unless you’re totally on top of BPD and not in the dark as I was). I spent a lot of time looking to solve the “problem” in me rather than changing me to cope/accept/love alongside/rationalise with the problems in her.

So now I spend a lot of time making sure I don’t make things worse... .and I suppose emotional caretaking but hopefully effectively... .I’m yet to see the positive effects so far other than in my own contentment.

[Enabler]

Ohhhhhh it all went so well until I asked “what’s for dinner”, the response of a rather mardy  “what’s for dinner? Nothing, we didn’t eat here” to which I responded “oh”.

If looks could kill I’d have been hung drawn and quartered.