Divorce/custody—too little too late?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

MY soon to be ex-wife has filed for divorce but through the last 6 months of our marriage I had a hell of a ride through parental alienation, physical, verbal and emotional abuse, and only until recently did a therapist finally put it all together and diagnosed her with BPD. Now EVERYTHING makes complete sense over our 15 + year marriage.  
Too little too late? My children are already a complete mess from the parental alienation that took place, she has shown her true BPD now that she filed for divorce but even prior she was exhibiting the exact behaviors listed.  She has been doing these things over our entire marriage.
we're headed for mediation but pending custody hearing I sense.  There was never an "official" diagnosis because once our therapist began to reveal these symptoms to her and call her out on many of these things, she refused to continue to go to this therapist. I'm asking for a custody evaluation in hopes that her BPD and narcissism is revealed.

[fishman76]

MY soon to be ex-wife has filed for divorce but through the last 6 months of our marriage I had a hell of a ride through parental alienation, physical, verbal and emotional abuse, and only until recently did a therapist finally put it all together and diagnosed her with BPD. Now EVERYTHING makes complete sense over our 15 + year marriage.  
Too little too late? My children are already a complete mess from the parental alienation that took place, she has shown her true BPD now that she filed for divorce but even prior she was exhibiting the exact behaviors listed.  She has been doing these things over our entire marriage.
we're headed for mediation but pending custody hearing I sense.  There was never an "official" diagnosis because once our therapist began to reveal these symptoms to her and call her out on many of these things, she refused to continue to go to this therapist. I'm asking for a custody evaluation in hopes that her BPD and narcissism is revealed.

[kells76]

Hey fishman76, welcome to the message boards -- glad you found this place 

Sounds like you've really been through the wringer, especially over the last few months. And probably having all the pieces fall in place for an explanation of BPD makes some things easier but a lot is staying extremely difficult. We're here for you -- all the crazy stories that it seems like nobody would believe? We've been there too.

Tell us more about your kids. How old are they? What's everyone's living situation right now? Do the kids have a counselor at all?

By way of introduction, my DH (dear husband) has two girls with his uBPDxw (undiagnosed BPD ex wife -- no formal diagnosis but a LOT of challenging behaviors). I've been step parenting for almost 5 years and the first few were pretty hard. I definitely thought "too little too late" myself -- DH's relationship with SD11 (my 11 year old stepdaughter) seemed so broken due to the PA-type messages from Mom and her husband. Long story and many $ to lawyer later the kids have a really good counselor who sees past Mom's BS and has helped SD11 make a 180 with DH. We still have a long road but it's not impossible to come back from over the edge of the cliff.

Also, let us know how YOU are hanging in there, too.

[ForeverDad]

Been there, done that.  Many here have experienced your life.  I was married for over 15 years too before I separated.  For the first few we were like best friends but little by little her childhood fears and distress overwhelmed our lives.  We had a child around our 12th anniversary.  I mistakenly thought us having a child would make her happier, what happened was that she just relived her childhood through him.  She became more suspicious of everyone including friends and my family.  She was paranoid that everyone "probably" were child abusers.  It was her and her son against the world.  Once the others were driven away, I was virtually isolated.  With few around to accuse, she started looking at me suspiciously.  We separated but that last year was so scary.  Divorce took a couple years, she had a favorable temp order and so she delayed as long as she could.  It was high conflict for several more years but when I had finally obtained custody and majority time (during the school year) her entitled bubble deflated a bit.

Don't expect too much from mediation, she's probably too entitled and demanding to truly negotiate.  If you reach an agreement then likely you gifted too much away and received mere crumbs in return.  Usually it takes a while for the court process to limit her sense of entitlement.  A less unfair settlement may be possible, perhaps just before a major hearing or trial.  Near the end of my two year divorce we were scheduled a full day for trial about 4 months out.  When I arrived "on the court house steps" (if only it had steps) on Trial Day I was greeted with the news she was ready to negotiate.

Also, try your best to get as good (or less bad) a temp order as possible.  Court will be likely be unwilling to change it.  I guess they think a temp order is only temporary but many here report divorces taking one or two years, a few even longer.  As I wrote, I spent over two years with a couple temp orders, both in ex's favor.

Understand well that our ex-spouses generally won't or can't listen to us or to our logic.  There's too much emotional baggage from the ending close relationship for us to get through to them.  Due to the extreme entitlement and often their willingness to accuse literally anything to sabotage us, we can't make deals in the early stages since the demands are so one-sided.  That is where The Real Authority (court) can help us.  Though the courts and lawyers prefer settlements, when pressed to make decisions the courts are (usually) "less unfair" than our ex-spouses.

Most courts seem to avoid dealing with or seeking diagnostic labels.  Their system expects the conflict to fade over time but that doesn't apply to our extreme cases.  So better to focus on her behaviors and behavior patterns, her parenting behaviors more than her adult behaviors.

[livednlearned]

Hi fishman76,

I'm sorry for what brings you here  and glad you found the site.

How are you holding up at the moment? These marriages, divorces, and custody battles can take a toll. It's great that you have a therapist who knows what you're dealing with, who also knows your wife, even if she won't get help for her issues (which is common, btw).

There are usually two battles with custody. One is the legal battle, the other is for the hearts and minds of our kids. For that, you may need to change the way you parent your kids. Dr. Craig Childress has some good stuff on what he calls ju-jitsu parenting, to help you learn some counter-intuitive ways to navigate the wreckage and rebuild relationships with your kids. Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison is also important reading, and Bill Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids is also a favorite. Eddy has also written Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse.

A custody evaluation is a good idea. If you can, be sure to pick the top three candidates and then let your wife select one of them. Put deadlines on everything, with consequences for noncompliance. Meaning, if she does not pick the candidate by day/date, make sure it's clear you get to pick. People with BPD tend to stonewall and obstruct and lawyers aren't good at moving things along.

Same goes for your L, who for collegial reasons may grant extensions and reschedule things. It's good practice in high-conflict divorces to be very clear with your L that under no condition are extensions granted without your consent.

Are your kids in therapy? If you can, try to get them in to see someone, using the same strategy mentioned above. Find three that are ethical, reputable, and experienced. Let your wife pick one. You may be asked to sign a waiver so the child T does not get called to testify in court. It's much harder to create a therapeutic relationship with kids if the T is expected to do forensic child psychology. One loophole I discovered is that a T who signs a waiver can talk to another T who can testify, like the custody evaluator. Not something you need to tell your wife, but good to know that it's a possibility in case the child T is aware of BPD parenting behaviors.

You'll get the hang of things

This is a great site for threading the BPD/family court needle. There is lots of collective wisdom and people willing to walk with you as you go through these difficult months/years.

You're not alone.

LnL

Ju-­jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position
C.A. Childress, Psy.D. (2013)

[fishman76]

I'm barely holding up right now, haven't seen my kids for over two months, barely any contact. Mom sent my 17 year old son to live with her parents (long story but part of the whole parent alienation), initially I was the reason why he wanted to leave yet he was filled with anger, depression but I am discovering that he is still severely depressed and misses me.  He was in counseling but because the counselor was challenging him with several PA issues and other issues, he started to refuse to go (with the encouragement of mom), this was all during the time I was still at home.  My daughters are home with mom but they received the brunt of the PA, one daughter (teenager) also suffering from depression and anxiety is not in counseling but was put on Prozac and Ativan. When I tried to intervene I was met with hostility and was unable to say a word to her or how to get better help.  My youngest (pre-teen) came out with a huge accusation after our first court appearance which was completely false and even she couldn't keep the lie together (I won't go into further details). None of who are in counseling at the moment, once our initial court appearance was done (apparent victory for mom - but really there was no hearing since divorce was not on the table at that time and judge just basically said "go work this out at home".  Yet she has lied so much, baited me to come home over a weekend and then completely twisted everything on me and accused me of many many things in her court docs, all of which I can prove otherwise but patiently waiting for my day in court.  She is now all of a sudden living her life as a free single woman and has just caused so much destruction in my family.
 Once she filed for divorce, things have changed and my attorneys are actively working.  My faith is keeping me strong yet working full time, grieving my marriage and being alone is extremely difficult.

[toomanydogs]

Hi Fishman,
  Welcome to this forum. I'm sorry you're going through such a painful process. I have little to offer other than welcoming you and letting you know I have an idea of what you're going through.   
TMD

[livednlearned]

Hi Fishman,

I know it's hard right now. Everything is coming at you at once, and it can feel hopeless.

You have a chance to rebuild your strength right now, and while it may take some effort on your part, the relationships with your kids will change. I have never felt so low and down and devastated as I did following my divorce, and my son struggles with anxiety/depression to this day, 7 years after the marriage to his dad ended. Yet, he is also one of the most insightful teens I know and has made big gains. They change so much in those years, and we have to be patient and learn counter-intuitive skills and heal our emotional wounds so we can mend each other.

You may find this site helpful: www.ryanthomasspeaks.com/

He shares some skillful ways to stay connected with a kid during a period of estrangement that might help you.

People on this site who have walked in your shoes know what you're going through, including the despondency, depression, anxiety, fear, troubled relationships with kids, you name it.

Take care of yourself right now. Build your strength. You're in a phase of the divorce that will eventually change, and get easier, but you have to start looking after yourself so you can receive the help people offer and turn this low point into something that makes you stronger for your kids.

 

LnL

[fishman76]

ForeverDad (or anyone else with advise)... .in mediation should I bring up she has BPD? I was told by my L to not give too much information out, only if asked to expound on my concerns... .Mediation is coming up way to soon and I feel like I'm unprepared.  I really do not want to settle on anything since there has been so so much alienation, accusations, lies, abuse, etc,etc I can't see simply walking away from all of this for the sake of our children.

[ForeverDad]

I too faced allegations of child abuse.  When we were expecting our baby, I had hoped for a daughter, she for a son.  Looking back, I think I see her reasons, she faced child abuse from her stepfather and so subconsciously she imagined having a son would be safer.  Still, as he approached three years of age that she had been when her SF came into her family's life, she became quite paranoid, suspecting that everyone was "probably" an abuser, her and her son against the world.  Once friends and family were driven away, I was just about the only one left and thus became her remaining target.  Looking back on her repeated allegations of child abuse that came after we separated, some discounted immediately and some investigated and determined to be unsubstantiated, I can imagine how much harder it would have been if we had a daughter.

After what was evidently an intense need to accuse me (try to make me look worse than her) after she had gotten son's pediatrician to "withdraw services", she took son to the ER again.  That was the only time I am aware of that son parroted her claim.  It also was determined to be unsubstantiated.  I learned children's agencies never say an allegation is 'false' and rarely 'unfounded', their standard words are 'substantiated' or 'unsubstantiated'.  I wondered how to help my kid, then in kindergarten, to understand what lies and truths are.  I found an out of print kid book, Clifford the Big Red Dog "T-Bone Tells the Truth".  It definitely helped me explain how troubles can be worsened when the truth is hidden or not disclosed.

[Panda39]

Hi fishman76,

My SO also went through much of what you are experiencing including false allegations of abuse, hang in there you will get through this   

I noticed that no one recommended Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger so I wanted to pass that on too, my SO found it helpful during is divorce from his uBPDxw.

Take Care,
Panda39

[livednlearned]

in mediation should I bring up she has BPD? I was told by my L to not give too much information out, only if asked to expound on my concerns... .Mediation is coming up way to soon and I feel like I'm unprepared.  I really do not want to settle on anything since there has been so so much alienation, accusations, lies, abuse, etc,etc I can't see simply walking away from all of this for the sake of our children.

Here a few questions that may make a difference in how things go:

How does mediation work where you live?
Is mediation mandatory?
What percentage of client cases is your lawyer able to mediate?
If mediation doesn't work, what happens next?
Is the mediator a lawyer or a psychologist (it's often one or the other)?
Does your lawyer think your case will go to court, and if so, does he think you'll get a better outcome in front of a judge?

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse) says that of most family law cases, 80 percent are low conflict, and 20 percent are high conflict. It's his belief (he's a former social worker turned family law attorney) that in most high conflict cases, one or both parties have a personality disorder. People with PDs are not just difficult, they are the most difficult, and mediation is not likely to succeed unless the mediator is skilled at dealing with PDs.

Mediation for many of us is a box we check on our way to court. You might be able to get some of the urgent financial things squared away, but your wife is not likely to give an inch on the kids.

What might help is to focus on your goals. What do you think is best. Write it down.

Then punch the goals up. This punched up version is what you bring to mediation, so you have room to negotiate down (she's likely to feel like she's getting a win if she thinks you're losing   ) to the goal you are actually good with.

Then list your very bottom line, so that you know when to end mediation.

Lawyers pride themselves on resolving things in mediation because judges and clients don't want to end up in court. Lawyers are ethically bound to work for you, so they have to show good faith attempts to settle issues, and succeeding in mediation signals to other clients that they work hard to keep you out of court.

Except that we aren't like other clients. So going to court typically ends up working better for us than trying to compromise in mediation.

I hope that helps. It's hard to think straight when you're flooded with emotion and not sleeping well, which is pretty common during early stages of this stuff.

I say all this because mediation might not be the time to say she is BPD. You might want to wait until a custody evaluation is underway so that someone else -- a third -party professional -- can say she's is BPD. It will break up the he-said, she-said dyad that gets us in court.

Will you and your wife be doing mediation in the same room? There are pros and cons either way. It's a matter of whether you want to hear what she says, or if you feel your nerves are too jangled to think straight.

During my mediation, we were in separate rooms. My T had me do an exercise so I wouldn't self-sabotage during mediation, and it helped a lot to prevent me from giving everything away. I also gave my T permission to talk to my L, an unusual arrangement! T told my L I would self-sabotage and to help prevent me from doing that. I didn't have this site back then, but I think it would've been more helpful than anything else, if only to understand what the heck everyone's angle was.

What are you hoping mediation will accomplish?