We fight over everything

[Frankee]

To add to my already slippery slope, I gave my H a bowl of cereal last night.  I didn't thoroughly clean it.  In my defense, I had already dosed off before being poked awake to get him some cereal.  (Yes he should of gotten it himself, but I didn't want to argue).  Zombie walked into the cold kitchen and rinsed out the bowl from sink.  Got cereal, delivered to H.  H found cereal stuck to the sides halfway through and was immediately grossed out and severely upset.  He of course said I did it on purpose.  I apologized for that (I was really sorry, it was kind of gross). 

That led to how I'm feeding him rancid food, he can't trust me to do anything, wonders what other dirty dishes I've given him (none), can't even eat in his own home.  Asked if I looked up doctors for him to get a physical, he said no before I answered, which the answer was no.  Told me he is done with me, has gotten to the point where a "man" needs to ask himself if this woman makes me happy or miserable.  Then asked me what is he getting out of this relationship, said that he's tired of feeling this way, I always make him mad, miserable.  Telling me he's "stuck" with me for the next X amount of months till we get this house and after that I can be on my way.  Asking me how it feels because now he doesn't give a sh** just like me, congratulations for ruining everything.  I haven't rubbed his back in months.

happy new year right... . 

I got up and went to the restroom.  Heard him still grumbling to himself.  Acted like I was washing my face.  Once I heard quiet, I went back to the room.  One last jab, he said he's going to roll over and go to sleep just like I do and act like he doesn't care.  I sighed and laid there trying to decide what I wanted to do.  I rubbed his back.  Once I hit a sore spot, he asked me to work on that area because it hurt.  So I did.  I rubbed his back until I thought he fell asleep.  I laid back down, he scooted closer and he pulled me close to him and wrapped his arm around me.  *Cycle restarted*. 

I've had this happen before.  This cycle.  I didn't include everything said.  What he is doing and saying is not okay.  It is abuse.  I have every right not to listen to it.  Just because he says it does not make it true.  This isn't the first time he's threatened that he's done, how he's told me that he doesn't want to feel this way anymore, how I can just leave, that I make him miserable, how if I really cared, I wouldn't do the things I do (i.e. give him food in a dirty dish), how now he doesn't care just like me.

So the million dollar question, are they ever really done? 

[patientandclear]

Oh sweetie. There is a ton of insight in your post. Kudos in particular for noting that, when he subsided and embraced you after you served him in a way he found pleasing, it is the re-commencement of a cycle—not progress.

But why is the question at the end of your insightful post about what HE will do? That orientation, that the ball is in his court, is the enemy.

To confirm your sense: he should not have woken you to fetch his cereal. He should not view your relationship as a commodity, or you as a servant/escort. That lens he applies to your relationship will generate these experiences over and over.

But it works for him. He abusively accuses you of being inadequate—and you immediately try harder to please him. He is getting a huge payoff for this behavior.

So in answer to your question: no, he can keep doing this indefinitely

[formflier]

But it works for him. He abusively accuses you of being inadequate—and you immediately try harder to please him. He is getting a huge payoff for this behavior.
 

Frankee,

Please focus on the bold... .

Why in the world would he change something that is working for him?  That really is the crux of the question.  A part for you to understand is that there is no way (that I know of) to change this dynamic without further enraging him.

I hope that makes sense to you, even if you don't like it.  He is getting "goodies", goodies are being taken from him, he is offered goodies again but asked to do more for them in the future than in the past

he is going to ?

(A)  Happily go along...

(B)  :)ouble down on how he got things in the past (rage, fits, etc etc)


OK... what to do moving forward.

Step 1.  :)O NOT MAKE CHANGES until you are ready to be consistent  Being inconsistent is worse than just rubbing his back and getting him cereal... .dirty or otherwise.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

It is critical that you understand this BEFORE you start making changes.

I'll tell you some of my stories that ended up being successful, to give examples, once you think you have the concept.

FF

[Frankee]

Yes.  The extinction bursts.  Had a grip on it and then off it goes again.  I hate when I find myself in this spot.  I lied about something, I gave him a dirty bowl.  Guilt of something I did wrong.  Then it gives him the upper hand and I'm back to Point A where I feel I'm restarting.  I get mad at myself that I'm accepting this guilt and then doing what I can to get back in good graces

Thought that was the answer.  Indefinitely.  *sigh*  I don't feel well (like coming down with a cold) and I've been chewing on this.

Then the questions keeps playing in my head, am I staying with him because I'm afraid of possibly losing the kids in this break up or what the split could possibly to do them?  Or do I really deep down love him and want to try to break the cycle and be a family?

As I sit here and think about it, I do want to makes changes.  I don't want to keep doing this cycle anymore, sick of it.  Then the flip side is part of me feels like it's slowly dying.  Two sides.  One wants to change, get a house in the town we talk about, continue on as a family (hopefully happier).  One side wants to slowly prepare for the inevitable where I end up leaving him and things get worse.

So here I am.  Have insight on certain things, but still wandering around blind to others.  What's even harder to process if knowing the fact that if I move forward and start actually working hard on being consistent, I'm going to be met with resistance, more rages, gaslighting, blaming, accusing of whatever wrongdoings, telling me he doesn't trust me and never will.  A little while back I thought I had started down the path, but I'm feel I'm back at the starting line.  Is it normal to feel like this whole starting over thing?  Part of a cycle that I haven't broken yet... maybe.

[formflier]

   

It's understandable that you are "all over the place".  When things are bad in a r/s with a pwBPD it can be like someone sticking a blender in feelings and thinking... .they go everywhere! 

Instead of focusing on your failures, focus on the steps you will take to move forward toward a healthier, more stable place for you.

Keep it simple, keep it small... .keep it focused.  Only work on one or two closely related things... .let the house in town, white picket fences, songbirds singing during romantic strolls... .let all of those things take care of themselves.

Value and expressions of love:  You like to do acts of service for your husband, he likes you to do them.  Those are all wonderful things.  Nothing to change there.

Your husband speaks abusively, derisively, demandingly  etc etc to you... .you don't like that.  It's bad for you.  Your hubby may not be aware or he may... .but there is NO incentive for him to change... .NONE.

There is stuff to change there.

So... .you are asleep.  He "pokes" you to get up and "demands" cereal. 

you (the new you)

"Ouch!"  Pause.   "That hurt... .I'm so tired.  I need to sleep.  Please allow me some peace and quiet".

blather... demand... .you never... you always... .pink elephants... .crocodiles... .you have a forked tongue... .

just stay relaxed... .don't react.

"I hear you, let's talk later.  Please allow me some peace and quiet to sleep."

perhaps a time or two more.  Then get up and go sleep somewhere else, leaving to a hotel if needed.

Yes... .this goes a little beyond "just the bowl of cereal", but the sleep is a bigger deal than cereal.

Big picture:  When he is nice and respectful, bend over backwards for him.  When he is ABUSIVE... .he "gets" NOTHING from you... .NOTHING.  Especially not an emotional reaction.

FF

[formflier]

There is nothing magical about the exact words I've put down.  I think they would be a good starting point.  Memorization is critical for the first few times, because... .well... because you will likely be as freaked out by the change as he is.

I'm just as interested that you see the "theory" or "thinking" behind my words as a starting point.

Ouch (his actions hurt on many levels... expressing that will be good for everyone)

You then express your needs and directly ask for what you need from him.  Which is simple, because he just has to shut the (blank) up. 

this is not a debate... .it's bigger than a bowl of cereal... .don't let him conflate the two.  Especially when one is a basic human need and cereal (in that context) is a desire.  (I get it food is a basic human need... .but it's one he can handle for himself without causing you pain)

Then... the critical part... .YOU TAKE ACTION to satisfy your basic human needs (in this case sleep)

You do this without trying to control him.  You do your thing... he does his (ohhh... .you can bet he will) and the next day... don't make a big deal about it. 

Wash rinse repeat... .consistency is key.

He will want to talk about pink elephants, crocodiles, aliens, you always, you never... .and you know what... .he can... .just make sure you don't join in or stick around long if he does.

FF

[formflier]

Think about this for a few days... .he will eventually flip out.  It may take a minute... .a week... .or a month, but he will flip out about this.  Your "reaction" is critical.

It's been a while since I've told this... .I'll try to keep it short.

My first boundary...

I used to think that complete openness was the way to dispel fears.  After all "I had nothing to hide... ."  For many people this may work.  Once a PD gets set off... .openness provide ammunition and invalidation.  

My value and boundary was that I was able to have privacy in my email and phone.  I changed the password.  My wife asked, I said no.  She was cool with it for a couple weeks

Well, we were about to "get busy" one night and my wife starts whispering in my ear about don't I want it and all that... .(ummm... yeah... I'm usually up for "it"

Prudes cover eyes... move along.

So, I'm on top and just about to "push into" my wife (yes... sex).  It's not unusual for us to try different things so at first her hand on me helping me "aim" wasn't  a big thing, except she guided me away (made me miss).  About the same time she says (offers) that she will let me "in there" if I give her my password... .(oh yeah... the internal conflict was high... .)  

I luckily was able to stay calm, roll off and rather casually say that didn't work for me... .and just laid there with my back to her for a while... .

Plus... I didn't want to have to worry about my facial expressions... etc etc.  I was scared and shocked because "sexual manipulation" was fairly low in our relationship... especially the pre-sex kind.  

Well... .she huffed a bit... .was quiet for a while and after perhaps 10 minutes... perhaps 20, she acts like it was no big deal... .we had a big sex romp... and it has rarely been mentioned since.

Certainly no attempt like that.

I tell the story to say that senior members had "gotten to me" and explain the importance of consistency and not capitulating.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Some time ago I had a horse who started off really nice (honeymoon phase). Over time, it became obvious she wanted to be the alpha to another horse and she would attack him and bite him when he least expected it.

Then, after she was successful at giving him a look and having him move quickly away, she decided that she wanted to be alpha to me. Knowing how much faster her reactions were than mine, and of course the tremendous size difference, I had to nip that behavior in the bud immediately.

I tend to train animals with kindness, not harshness, but I had to do some behaviors that bordered on unkindness to try and maintain my position in the hierarchy. One morning when I was feeding her, she tried to bite me. It was turning into a warmish day and I hadn't yet removed her blanket. I immediately swung into action and grabbed a rope. I chased her out of her stall, smacking her with the end of the rope and chased her up and down her pasture, making her run, keeping her away from her food. She ran until she was soaked in sweat under the blanket and then I made her run some more.

Finally, she looked at me with pleading eyes, not arrogant eyes, and we were done. I let her walk back into her stall, eat her breakfast and I removed her blanket.

She tried to assert her dominance on me a few more times, but each time it was easier for me to shut it down, often with just a look and my body posture.

I'm thinking that you need to draw the line about what behaviors are acceptable and which ones aren't. If someone were to wake me up and ask me to get them a bowl of cereal, my answer (unless they were under age 8) would be "Hell no!" And if it was my husband, it would be more like, "Go f* yourself!"

The same would apply if he were to be mean to me and then ask me to massage him. Now I'm not saying that you should respond the way I would, but you need to decide what is an appropriate request and what isn't.

Like FF says, he will flip out, but if you continue on this path of appeasing him, it will get worse. No easy answers. Sorry.  

[Frankee]

I don't think any of it matters anymore.  I think I'm done.  He had a rant that I don't think I'll ever get past.  This time I mean it.  He has said some unforgivable things, acting like a straight up narcissist, telling me I'm not a real woman, without him my life would be sh**, that after 6 months when he gets this house with my help, that I'm getting the hell out and he's going to tell the boys that I'm dead.  He has a serious complex against woman.

He said I'm turning the kids against him, whisper horrible things about him to the kids, how I'm making him out to be the monster because I sit there calmly while I make him yell, being passive aggressive, patronizing him, I'm a liar, cu**, I ruined everything, he would rather have the boys grow up to be just as evil as long as they aren't liars like me, he's not going to let me ruin their lives like I've ruined his.

I tried to do all the BS tools.  Nothing mattered.  There was false hope sprinkled in through out all of this. He has stamped me a threat to the children, a habitual liar, demonized me.  I don't care anymore.  I have less than 6 months to plan.  I've already talked to my friend.  She's going to talk to some people she knows about what my options are.  Now my focus is too act like I'm not up to anything.  He is an abuser.  I have been told by the abuse hotline people that the most dangerous time can be when a victim tries to leave the relationship.  I'm making plans and I have to be sure he doesn't know what's coming.

[Cat Familiar]

I don't think any of it matters anymore.  I think I'm done.  He had a rant that I don't think I'll ever get past.  This time I mean it. 

As someone who left a violent and abusive relationship, I understand that there is a point of no return. It sounds like you might be there.

I have less than 6 months to plan.  I've already talked to my friend.  She's going to talk to some people she knows about what my options are.  Now my focus is too act like I'm not up to anything.  He is an abuser.  I have been told by the abuse hotline people that the most dangerous time can be when a victim tries to leave the relationship.  I'm making plans and I have to be sure he doesn't know what's coming.

Please also get in touch with the local domestic violence people. They can help you with legal matters and other issues that could come up. I'm glad you've got a supportive friend to assist you.   

[formflier]

  I think I'm done.  

I tried to do all the BS tools. 

Wind the clock... .don't make decisions for a few days.

You won't be ready for a few days, so you know there will be a next time. 

Ask yourself... why do I know all those details to post about.  Why did I "not take my ears elsewhere".

The tools are to help divert a dysregulation.    I'm not aware of any tool that will calm down a full blow hurricane... .like you got.

Go to the storm shelter till it blows over... .

Now... .I'm not trying to convince you to stay... or go.  I'm trying to help you be pragmatic and to PROTECT YOURSELF.  You do that by walking away and being blissfully ignorant.

FF

[snowglobe]

Dear @Frankee I’m so sorry you are going through some hard times with your h. While reading this thread and your previous ones, I want to build on what ff was suggesting to you regarding the tools. There are two components to them; one is consistency and the other is time. It takes time and yes, practice for them to start working. I understand the urgency and dangerousness of your setuation. Yet, I can’t help but notice your proportional emotional reaction to his words. Dear, it takes the non a lot of emotional intelligence to “stop the bleeding” so to say by not reacting and sticking to the tools. I also want to point that it isn’t as emotionally satisfying as retaliating, at least in the moment. In the beginning of my journey, while I was still “hot” every time I used the tools instead of proportional anger if felt like I was letting myself down, and like you write it’s all “bs”. Now, however I’m so deeply thankful to ff, pearlsw, tattered Heart, catfamiliar, ozmatoz and many other members for helping me to get on the “healthier” path. My uBPDh is still very much dusregulating, yet my reaction isn’t proportional to his. Remember, pwBPD are very skilled at manipulation. Why do you think he brings the kids into the fights? Because he knows it’s the shortest way to blow your fuse. Remove yourself from the setuation. You, and you alone have the power to change and untrained him. My favourite one from ff is “I love you and care about our relationships so much so I won’t listen to this nonsense”. He still fumes and spits at me. But I’m not providing any more fuel for him to run on. He knows the boundary. I haven’t changed the major roles in the relationships, I’m still the caretaker and he is still emotionally retarded man child, but his abusive ways of demanding caregiving is very slowly t
ranforming. I won’t  tell you what you what to do, only you know best. Just keep in mind, that even when/if you will choose to leave, you will still need to coparent your children together. You will need the tools for that

[formflier]

The "emotional intelligence" part of the post above is key.  Expressing anger, disappointment and other "negative" emotions is still possible, and I would argue we should still do that with pwBPD, but with them it is more critical than ever to be wise about when we do this.

For instance, my wife lied her a$$ off about details of her brothers trip around Christmas, in an apparent attempt to undo our plans for Christmas.

I stayed the course... .we had a wonderful Christmas.

At some point I will address the "lying". She will flip out... .I'll try to find a time where she has time to process and flip out... without to much "splatter" hitting the rest of our lives. 

That's being wise and smart about what you know is going to happen.

That will also give me time to practice with P about how I will present my disappointment and concern.

"You know, this is the kind of thing that affects trust in a relationship... "   That's my current idea
... .rather than saying "your choices destroyed my trust... .etc etc"

Big picture:  pwBPD have a lot of emotional growing up to do.  Part of growing up is learning to "fill in the blanks", so give them nudges and let them fill in their own blanks... .or not.

If my wife chooses to continue to lie about her family members plans, more specifically her knowledge of them, there is not much I can do about it... other than express my disappointment and concern about how that will affect our relationship.

FF

[Frankee]

I'm tired.  Living in a constant state of anxiety and fear.  I never know how much time I have.  I never know when the next time he gets angry will be the time he gives me a black eye or ends up breaking something. 

How much longer?  Just taking my ears elsewhere when he follows me and starts to get physical when I attempt to remove myself.    How do you set boundaries from a person you fear will knock you out if you do?  Being emotionally intelligent when he says he will shove razor sharp splinters under my fingernails and beat me senseless if I harm our toddler.

Then normal. Telling me he loves me.

I lied.  About physical altercations.  I was worried about being judged and hearing stuff like, why didn't you report him or leave back then?  He's gotten physical with me in the past.  One time he punched me in the gut, and made me pass out.  So tell me now about setting boundaries.  Tell me how to walk away from a man who took me out in the backyard, made me get on my knees and threatened to shoot me in the back of the head.  Why didn't I report him or leave then?  I was terrified he would come back for me, shoot me and bury me in the backyard and then murder my family with all the gory details he decided to share.

Should I not let that affect me?  Be emotionally intelligent when he looks at me with dead eyes and says that if I even think about taking away his kids, he will hunt me down, torture me in ways that I never knew possible, and make me wish I was dead. How I should not let it affect me. 

Going to the cops... He's told me to call the cops.  Telling me he would wait as long as he had to and when he gets out, find me and murder me.  What's more dangerous?  Staying and hoping that day doesn't come?  Leaving and hoping he doesn't get to me?

Then tells me he loves me.

[Frankee]

Think of Stockholm syndrome.  That's what I was years ago.  Now seeing clearly.  I know this cannot last.

[snowglobe]

Dear @Frankee,
I’m so deeply sorry, I could not imagine the extent of your abuse. I can’t imagine living in a shadow of a constant physical danger, you are absolutely correct, no amount of boundaries and emotional intelligence can solve this one for you. I applaud you for strength in admitting to the physical abuse you are enduring, it takes a real courage to shine the light on it. Given the severity of your circumstance, it is the best to leave, but I would not leave my children with the same person abusing you. After all, he “loves” you in his own BPD way, who is there to say that he won’t “love” your kids the same way, or even worse to punish you. Reach out to local shelter, and start planning your exit quietly. If, and I feel that he is affiliated with the “underworld”, you can hopefully enter the “victim protection program”. Try discussing it with your da councillor. And please, remember that he might be well connected and crazy enough to follow through with his threats, but there are law enforcement agencies that can put him away and protect you and the kids. I’m sending you a virtual hug, hang in there, we are all here for you to support and listen. I had one member very early on suggesting me an imaginary game. Next time he is there raging, imagine all of us standing there with you. All as one, you are lovable loving and loved dear sister

[Cat Familiar]

I hear you Frankee.   

Until you've been the recipient of physical violence, it's all just theoretical. All the times my first husband hit me, knocked the wind out of me, I don't think he wanted to kill me, but he easily could have, had I hit my head on the edge of the bathtub or on a concrete curb, etc.

Knowing that he could rage, I never trusted that I wouldn't be seriously hurt, so I just went limp-rag doll when the violence occurred and prayed that it would be over soon.

So I get it.

When you see clearly, you cannot go back to wishing and hoping. Please get as much help from local agencies as possible. They know what they're doing.   

[formflier]

OK... big breath here.  Zero judgment.  Looking back, I should have done things sooner... different, all of that.

I also realize that we don't know what we don't know (at the time) and we shouldn't be hard on ourselves for what we didn't know.

Also, acknowledge the obvious.   Should have you done something earlier?... .of course you should have.  But with high emotions, lack of sleep and all that I know all too well how hard it is to make a decision.

So... another big breath, please don't "hear" any judgment from me or anyone.  You know that you are in a precarious situation a dangerous situation and you don't want it to end badly for you or your husband.

1.  First of all do you have privacy on your phone and email communications?  Talk to me about how you know it's private.  This needs to be assured.

2.  You need to make contact and understand how shelters work for you where you live regularly and your temp location.  Obviously focus more on your temp location.  I get it you are scared and don't want to divulge your entire story here or there.  Focus on finding out how it works and how you get in contact with them.

3.  I want you to (privately) find out where your local 911 office is (usually it is the sheriff's office).  I want you to ask them about "text to 911"

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/what-you-need-know-about-text-911

Hopefully your area has it.  I hope they do.

On the one hand I don't want to dissuade you from calling 911 but I want you to understand that if your hubby sees you calling 911, that is likely to be light pouring gas on the "fire" he has.

Much better if you can "text 911" to send help to your address so he is none the wiser until the cops show up, then, let cops deal with him instead of you.

I'm so sorry that you are in this position.  I have been in a similar one, but it was about my kids.  My wife wouldn't stop "corporal punishment".  I stopped because it had gotten out of hand and my wife kept getting meaner and meaner.  Eventually I reported it to CPS and to make a long story short... .my kids haven't been "beaten" since.  Our family was stronger as a result.  

I consulted with lots of people before I did the report... .it felt like my life was ending to report that... .but I got to the place where I knew it couldn't go on.

I think you are there... .or close to there.  You just know... .deep down... something has to change.

We can help you... to a point.  You are going to need local help.

Do you have a therapist YOU see regularly?  

FF

[formflier]

  no amount of boundaries and emotional intelligence can solve this one for you.

  it is the best to leave, but I would not leave my children with the same person abusing you.

Clarity is critical in these situations... .I'm not criticizing anyone, I think I understand what Snowglobe means.

I think boundaries (specifically boundary enforcement) and emotional intelligence is precisely what is needed and it will solve this.  Solving and having happy satisfied people are very different concepts.

This will be hard... people (including you) won't be "happy" or "satisfied" for a while. 

This is something you are going to have to face, I hope and believe we still have some time to be smart about this.

I also agree that any "leaving" scenario would need to include you and a child.  DV shelters would be much better to coach you about "how" to leave or pick the time etc etc.

I hope you can pick the time, but I want you to be prepared to contact 911 if things get out of hand.

Hang in there.  I will check for your answers soon.

FF

[Meili]

I wholly agree with formflier that boundary maintenance and being Mindful are exactly what is needed here. They are essential to doing what you need to do to keep yourself safe.

I also agree with Snowglobe and Cat Familiar about being proactive in terms of contacting the authorities and local resources, and preparing an exit strategy.

I know that it's terrifying. I had to helplessly watch the father of my grandchild treat my daughter like that. It came down to him actually shooting at her before took definitive action. She, like you, lived in fear of what might happen and that he would carry through on his threats. He's now in prison and the state keeps her informed of all of his parole hearings and all other important information so that she knows what is going and take the necessary precautions.

I know that the DA issued a protective order for her based on past violence because our state takes DV very seriously and understands that many people do not report it when it occurs because of fear. This is common practice.

Also, there are shelters that women and children can go to and their locations are not publicly known so that angry SO's cannot find them to hurt them.

There are resources and options available, but you have to be willing to take the first step and maintain your boundaries.

[formflier]

Also, there are shelters that women and children can go to and their locations are not publicly known so that angry SO's cannot find them to hurt them.
 

Please ask your local DV people about this.  Understand they may not tell you where they are or show you until you get into the system (again... they are very protective of these locations)

I was an executive in county government for a while.  There were several locations that agencies used, we went to great lengths for them to appear as everything other than a shelter.

Hang in there... .I'm looking forward to what you learn from local DV agencies and the 911 office.

FF

[Frankee]

If, and I feel that he is affiliated with the “underworld”, you can hopefully enter the “victim protection program”. Try discussing it with your da councillor. And please, remember that he might be well connected and crazy enough to follow through with his threats, but there are law enforcement agencies that can put him away and protect you and the kids.

This is key.  He has connections.  I thought it was make believe, but I've seen it.  He use to run a biker club and has met his fair share of unscrupulous people.  People that I didn't know truly existed until I met him.  Part of the reason why I'm still here.  Being told things that a lot of people don't know about.  I come from suburbia, think like Betty Crocker type family.  To winding up meeting a person who seems to know all to well about criminal activity, ways to make a person disappear, locations (undisclosed to me) where I could of been easily sold to a deviant where I would never be head from again, cartels, giving descriptions of things he has physically witnessed them doing...  

This isn't a sane person.  He has his times where I believed he may have been genuine and once truly loving... but I don't feel it.  My once holding on to hope and telling myself if I only did this and that... it feels dead inside.  I am letting him believe that he has control and everything is okay, because that's what I have to do to ensure I can get out safely.

[patientandclear]

Frankee, I have been in your situation minus the criminal connections aspect. I really get the emotional journey you’ve been on, including the hope that it could be managed. I respect greatly your recent conclusion that this is not something that can or should be “not taken on board” or allowed to roll off.

Respectfully to the guys who wrote about boundaries—that isn’t a concept that works under these circumstances. Frankee is saying she is feigning compliance for safety. That is a different road than implementing boundaries, which is feasible when one is not in actual physical danger.

[babyducks]

Hi Frankee,

I've followed your story on and off since November of last year.   I know this has been an ongoing and difficult time.   I am sorry that things have continued to escalate.     You have been, as you name says, strong about this for a long time.

I tried to do all the BS tools.  Nothing mattered.  There was false hope sprinkled in through out all of this. He has stamped me a threat to the children, a habitual liar, demonized me.  I don't care anymore.  I have less than 6 months to plan.  I've already talked to my friend.  She's going to talk to some people she knows about what my options are.  Now my focus is too act like I'm not up to anything.  He is an abuser.  I have been told by the abuse hotline people that the most dangerous time can be when a victim tries to leave the relationship.  I'm making plans and I have to be sure he doesn't know what's coming.

I am glad you have been talking to your friend, that some one local to you is helping to support you.   I think that's important.

I am really very glad you remember what the abuse hotline people told you, that the most dangerous time is when a victim attempts to leave.   

I think its a good thing to focus on your safety and bring others into your life to help you now.    I want to give you a  for making those difficult decisions and having those hard conversations.   

While it might not feel like it,  you are doing and taking the right steps.   I know you worked the tools.     That the relationship situation/abuse hasn't gotten better is not your responsibilty.

Over on the coping and healing board there is a side bar that says this:

I accept that I was powerless over my abusers' actions which holds THEM responsible

I accept that I am responsible for my actions, I am responsible to put myself in safe and healthy situations the best I can.    When I find I am not in a safe and healthy situation I am responsible to take appropriate actions to remedy that.

Nothing I can say, do, or forget to do makes me responsible for someone threatening me.   That belongs to them.

I am going to gently encourage you to focus on you.   safety first, then planning.    In a careful, thoughtful way just like you have been doing.

How can we help to support you today?

'ducks

[Meili]

Respectfully to the guys who wrote about boundaries—that isn’t a concept that works under these circumstances. Frankee is saying she is feigning compliance for safety. That is a different road than implementing boundaries, which is feasible when one is not in actual physical danger.

I respectfully disagree. Boundaries work in all circumstances. In fact, they are important and necessary in every circumstance.

Boundaries about about protecting ourselves and our core values. If one of those core values is that no one should be physically violent with another, then we have a boundary. Boundaries are inherent with all core values. Either something falls within the boundary, or it does not.

no one should be physically violent with another | being physically violent

Everything that happens that falls within the green is inside of the boundary (the black line). Everything that is in red is outside of the boundary.

In order to maintain that boundary, we would not allow physical violence in our lives. The boundary is there to keep us safe. It is up to each of us to define and maintain our boundaries.

Does that make sense?

[Cat Familiar]

Again, until you’ve been unexpectedly hit by a co-inhabitant with greater upper body strength who possibly outweighs you by 50%, it’s all just theoretical.

[Meili]

Having served as my father's punching bag for 17 of the first 19 years of my life, Also, size doesn't matter. I've had guns pointed at me by my FOO. Knives have been involved. The list goes on. I think that it's safe to say that I understand what it's like Cat Familiar.

There are numerous men on here with stories of the women in their lives attaching and doing physical harm to them. Fear is fear no matter the size of the other person.

To claim that we do not maintain our boundaries because of the size of another only serves to prevent us from looking at the one thing that we are in control of, ourselves.

[Cat Familiar]

I think we’re in agreement Meili, boundaries are necessary. However when one is unexpectedly attacked, survival becomes primary.

[Meili]

No argument from me there. For me, the likelihood of ever being attacked without warning a second time would be very slim however. Once I know that someone is capable of such behaviors, I don't allow myself to be in that situation again. Does that mean that I remove that person from my life? Not necessarily.

The reason that stress healthier communication, not escalating situation,  boundaries, and exit strategies around here so much is for self-protection and so that we don't find ourselves in similar situations in the future. We cannot control the behaviors of others, but we can protect ourselves.

If we learn to not engage in invalidation, circular arguments, JADE'ing, when it's appropriate to exit a situation, and the like, we can learn to not allow situations to escalate to the point that we are in danger.

Without a doubt, there are times when something will happen before we know what is going on. But, once we know that is a real possibility, we can take steps to safeguard ourselves against it in the future. Sometimes that means not returning to a location where the aggressor is at. Sometimes it is less drastic. 

[Cat Familiar]

The reason that stress healthier communication, not escalating situation,  boundaries, and exit strategies around here so much is for self-protection and so that we don't find ourselves in similar situations in the future. We cannot control the behaviors of others, but we can protect ourselves.

If we learn to not engage in invalidation, circular arguments, JADE'ing, when it's appropriate to exit a situation, and the like, we can learn to not allow situations to escalate to the point that we are in danger.

Yes. Absolutely!

I had no idea that some of my communication strategies, which to me seemed totally innocuous, were throwing gasoline on the fire. Therefore I found myself in the midst of explosions that were in my mind, completely out of the blue. I'm not saying that I was responsible for that behavior by my ex-husband, but rather that I didn't see the warning signs, nor did I understand how my seemingly innocent words could be interpreted as blaming and shaming.

Because he had very troubling mental illnesses, I finally recognized that the marriage was putting me in peril and I decided I no longer wanted to live with someone who felt that it was OK to be physically and emotionally abusive. I realized that I didn't love him, I loved the man I imagined him to be and who he wanted to be, but not the one that showed up every day.