He keeps texts from women to feed his narcissism

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I think I need some help with this.  I'm in between a rock and a hard place.  First off.  A couple months ago, H said an Indian woman came in saying she was new to town and needed friends.  According to him, he told her that he had a wife and kids.  He even showed me the really weird text message and pictures she sent at first.  We had a chuckle.  I said, she seems nice.  I wouldn't mind making some new girl friends.  He sent a text saying that if she wanted to hang out with us, we wouldn't mind making a new friend.  Fast Forward

Last night we were talking about Christmas presents.  We are thinking of getting a moon bounce for the backyard.  He pulls up on his phone some ideas.  Hands me the phone, tells me to look at the moon bounces, and see which ones I like and think would work.  I said okay.  He goes back to watching TV.  I'm browsing through the moon bounces and I get that curious itch.  He's not paying attention so I peep at his text messages.  I see a message from that woman from 5 days ago.  Basically saying she wants to "get with him".  Saying he can come visit her in Houston, she has a place for him to stay, how she wanted to see him.  I look back some more and found another one from a month ago, saying the same thing.  How she wanted to see him, would like to spend time with him.  There was no responses from him.  Either he deleted what he texted or he didn't respond.  I got furious, but acted normal so my H wouldn't know I was peeping. 

Then I saw another text thread from I guess a wife/girlfriend of one of his coworkers.  This I didn't really get jealous about, but was upsetting.  He seems to talk to her quite a bit.  She has texted about how her husband/boyfriend will degrade her, yell and scream about stuff, acts like a little boy, how she needs a real man and a baby daddy.  Saying how she needed to smoke and having the worse night of her life.  He was being real nice, saying it sounds like a negative environment, how he doesn't know what to say to help, supportive.  It hurt because I feel like he's not like that with me.  He's putting on the "public" face for this guy's girlfriend, acting like he's not like that.  I kind of laugh because the things she said make me think "only if she knew what my H was like behind closed doors".   

This whole time, my H is chatting with me about Christmas, what to get for the kids, asking what I thought of the moonbounces.  I hate the fact that I gave in to temptation about snooping.  Kind of wish I hadn't seen those texts from the other woman.  I wrote down her number.  Was about to send her a text telling her that she needed to back off, how he has a wife he would never cheat on, and how she's acting like a whore.  Then I stopped.  We carried on with the Christmas thing and then he went to take a shower. 

I sat there thinking about what happened.  Why didn't he delete the texts?  Why would he leave up messages that are clearly this woman trying to hook up with him?  Why would he willing hand over his phone and tell me to look at it?  Is he keeping the texts because it feeds into his narcissist side that likes the attention?  Was he hoping I would snoop, see the texts, and have a fit of jeaolusy?  Why should I be the one to say something to this woman?  Why doesn't he tell her that he is not interested and that he would never cheat on his wife?  Is he really thinking about it?  Waiting for an excuse to follow through then blame me for his infidelity?  Then what happens if I do confront this woman?  Is she going to go crying to him, ratting out the fact I snooped through his phone?  Then he will get angry at me for not trusting him by going through his phone and how he doesn't do that to me (I am 100% sure that would be his response, he would twist it to where it is my fault and how I don't trust him).

I know that is a lot of questions, but I've had time and I feel really torn about which direction to go from here.

[Frankee]

I think I need some help with this.  I'm in between a rock and a hard place.  First off.  A couple months ago, H said an Indian woman came in saying she was new to town and needed friends.  According to him, he told her that he had a wife and kids.  He even showed me the really weird text message and pictures she sent at first.  We had a chuckle.  I said, she seems nice.  I wouldn't mind making some new girl friends.  He sent a text saying that if she wanted to hang out with us, we wouldn't mind making a new friend.  Fast Forward

Last night we were talking about Christmas presents.  We are thinking of getting a moon bounce for the backyard.  He pulls up on his phone some ideas.  Hands me the phone, tells me to look at the moon bounces, and see which ones I like and think would work.  I said okay.  He goes back to watching TV.  I'm browsing through the moon bounces and I get that curious itch.  He's not paying attention so I peep at his text messages.  I see a message from that woman from 5 days ago.  Basically saying she wants to "get with him".  Saying he can come visit her in Houston, she has a place for him to stay, how she wanted to see him.  I look back some more and found another one from a month ago, saying the same thing.  How she wanted to see him, would like to spend time with him.  There was no responses from him.  Either he deleted what he texted or he didn't respond.  I got furious, but acted normal so my H wouldn't know I was peeping. 

Then I saw another text thread from I guess a wife/girlfriend of one of his coworkers.  This I didn't really get jealous about, but was upsetting.  He seems to talk to her quite a bit.  She has texted about how her husband/boyfriend will degrade her, yell and scream about stuff, acts like a little boy, how she needs a real man and a baby daddy.  Saying how she needed to smoke and having the worse night of her life.  He was being real nice, saying it sounds like a negative environment, how he doesn't know what to say to help, supportive.  It hurt because I feel like he's not like that with me.  He's putting on the "public" face for this guy's girlfriend, acting like he's not like that.  I kind of laugh because the things she said make me think "only if she knew what my H was like behind closed doors".   

This whole time, my H is chatting with me about Christmas, what to get for the kids, asking what I thought of the moonbounces.  I hate the fact that I gave in to temptation about snooping.  Kind of wish I hadn't seen those texts from the other woman.  I wrote down her number.  Was about to send her a text telling her that she needed to back off, how he has a wife he would never cheat on, and how she's acting like a whore.  Then I stopped.  We carried on with the Christmas thing and then he went to take a shower. 

I sat there thinking about what happened.  Why didn't he delete the texts?  Why would he leave up messages that are clearly this woman trying to hook up with him?  Why would he willing hand over his phone and tell me to look at it?  Is he keeping the texts because it feeds into his narcissist side that likes the attention?  Was he hoping I would snoop, see the texts, and have a fit of jeaolusy?  Why should I be the one to say something to this woman?  Why doesn't he tell her that he is not interested and that he would never cheat on his wife?  Is he really thinking about it?  Waiting for an excuse to follow through then blame me for his infidelity?  Then what happens if I do confront this woman?  Is she going to go crying to him, ratting out the fact I snooped through his phone?  Then he will get angry at me for not trusting him by going through his phone and how he doesn't do that to me (I am 100% sure that would be his response, he would twist it to where it is my fault and how I don't trust him).

I know that is a lot of questions, but I've had time and I feel really torn about which direction to go from here.

[Graceinaction]

First, let me say it is awesome that you didn't immediately react. You stepped back and thought about the situation and are continuing to find a good way to move forward. It has taken me years to get to that point!

Second, I don't know the "right" answer in this circumstance. If this were a typical relationship I would know exactly what to say: Be honest and talk to him about it in a calm way and see what he has to say. Unfortunately we both find ourselves in relationships with men that aren't typical, and we know the games (whether conscious or not) that they play.

There seems to always be a strong undercurrent of narcissism in people with BPD. They like to feel important and wanted. Hopefully the texts just made him feel special and that's why he kept them, but didn't respond. Not the best reaction, but far better than heading to Houston. My gut tells me that if he had responded favorably to her he would have deleted the entire conversation and not just his part. I'm saying this based off of my own husband, so I may not be right. But it makes the most sense. Unless he's diabolical enough to think to use the conversation in 2 ways (hook up with her AND delete his part so you'll see her side of the conversation) then he probably didn't respond.

My husband doesn't have the ability to think it through in a complex way. I don't think most pwBPD would. If he's truly a narcissist, and you suspect he is, he might think like that. But most pwBPD don't think that far ahead.

All you members with way more experience, help me out here... .am I on the right path, or do pwBPD really think things through to that extent?

Anyway, as far as what you should do? I was once faced with a similar situation. This was almost 7 years ago and long before I had any idea my husband had BPD. But I sat back as waited and watched. I didn't tip my hand, gave no clues, and just waited to see what happened. Did he come home after work? Was he texting secretly? Was he gone long periods of time with no explanation? Even with "normal" men that are cheating, they won't usually confess anyway. I read some articles on the behavior of men that are cheating and they all said men will only confess with hard evidence, and sometimes not even then. So I wanted to see for myself.

Nothing happened, so after a few weeks I brought it up and we talked about it. By that time I was 99% sure nothing was going on. If I had brought it up right away I would have always wondered if he just got more sneaky.

That's my experience. I hope some more people respond because I'm curious what others will say!

[babyducks]

Hi Frankee,

There is a lot of overlap in disorders of this kind.    There is so much overlap, so many similarities between BPD and NPD that they are often discussed together.    If you are truly interested in the diagnoses I would recommend this book.   It's brilliant and written in easy to comprehend language.  It's also reviewed on this site.

Margalis Fjelstad's: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist

I will go on to say that it's not as important to have a completely firm understanding of the diagnosis as to have a good understanding of behaviors and our own response to them.

When I read your post I see a lot of emotion in it.    Would it be reasonable to say that you felt pretty triggered by finding those texts in his phone?   Have you experienced infidelity in the past?

Forgive me but I can't remember if we've talked about the Drama Triangle before so I am going to start at the beginning.   

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

According to Steve Karpman this is how a drama triangle works

Karpman defined three roles in the "transaction"; Persecutor, Rescuer (the one up positions) and Victim (one down position). Karpman placed these three roles on an inverted triangle and described them as being the three aspects, or faces of drama.

The Victim The victim  in Karpman's triangle is not an actual victim, but rather someone feeling or acting like a victim. Karpman, who had interests in acting and was a member of the screen actors guild, choose the term "drama triangle" rather the term "conflict triangle" because his victim  is acting. Nonetheless, the victim  sincerely feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed, and seems unable to make decisions, solve problems, take pleasure in life, or achieve insight. The victim's  stance is "Poor me!"

The Persecutor The persecutor  is controlling, blaming, critical, oppressive, angry, authoritative, rigid, and superior - self righteous. The persecutor  insists, "It's all your fault."

The Rescuer  The rescuer  is a classic enabler. The rescuer feels guilty if he/she doesn't rescue. Yet his/her rescuing has negative effects: it keeps the victim  dependent and gives the victim  permission to fail. It also keeps the rescuer stuck in focusing energy on someone else's problems, not solving his/her own. The rescuer's  line is "Let me help you."

So, the truth is one of the prices we pay for drama is not getting what we truly want.   How do you see the drama triangle roles between you, your husband and the Indian woman?

Having an emotional reaction to finding odd texts on your husbands phone is perfectly natural, completely normal.   Feelings are neither good nor bad.   They just are.    It's what we do with them that can be problematic.   

I'm going to use this example, I am not saying you are doing this, I am just trying to flesh out the triangle a little more.

Let's say you feel hurt and injured by these texts (normal)  and you approach your husband from the position of Victim.    Can you see how there are only two other points on the triangle that are available to him?    Persecutor and Rescuer.   By default he is going to end up in one of them, my guess would be Persecutor.    From the way you described him.   It's very likely that you are going to get back,  "I haven't done anything wrong.   You shouldn't have snooped."

If you decide to discuss this with him, you want to very carefully stay off the drama triangle.   The thing to do is

Move to the center. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.

There is a lot more about the drama triangle in Fjelstad's book.   Including how to get off it, by moving to the center.   

what do you think?

'ducks

[Frankee]

First, let me say it is awesome that you didn't immediately react. You stepped back and thought about the situation and are continuing to find a good way to move forward.

I appreciate that.  I think the tips and tools I've been learning about kicked into geared.  Becoming emotionally reactive has proven to not usually be the best reaction when dealing with him.

Second, I don't know the "right" answer in this circumstance. If this were a typical relationship I would know exactly what to say: Be honest and talk to him about it in a calm way and see what he has to say. Unfortunately we both find ourselves in relationships with men that aren't typical, and we know the games (whether conscious or not) that they play.

Hopefully the texts just made him feel special and that's why he kept them, but didn't respond.
Unless he's diabolical enough to think to use the conversation in 2 ways (hook up with her AND delete his part so you'll see her side of the conversation) then he probably didn't respond.

My husband doesn't have the ability to think it through in a complex way. I don't think most pwBPD would.

That actually makes sense.  I really can't sense or pick up on anything diabolical going on.  I really feel that he didn't delete the texts because he enjoys the attention and feels "lusted" after.  Probably feeds his ego too.  I do wonder if on his really bad breakdowns, if he will use that as a weapon.  Something along the line of how he can get any woman he wants, he doesn't need me, this woman would be more than happy to take my place.  May seem totally crazy and not something that would happen right?  I feel "normal" people wouldn't use that amount of cruelty to hurt the one they love.  I do know from first hand experience, already being told the above mentioned things.  It may sound screwed up, but when he tells me something like that, I tell myself this.  If he really did replace me, my replacement would probably last a little while, but then she would run for the hills like every other woman has. 

I think my H isn't full blown narcissist.  I mean, don't get me wrong, everyone loves attention.  It's nice to feel wanted, desired, have someone "chase after you".  It's just when you are in a committted relationship, it feels they are walking a fine line with something like this.  I'm glad he told he he gave his number, it didn't even bother me, I actually did want to meet this woman and possible make a new  friend.  Then it crossed over into lusting after him, trying to hook up.  I also had the thought cross my mind.  Maybe he hasn't told me about it because he's afraid I would blow up about it.  I will never be able to know the reason for his actions or lack of. 

[Frankee]

When I read your post I see a lot of emotion in it.    Would it be reasonable to say that you felt pretty triggered by finding those texts in his phone?   Have you experienced infidelity in the past?

So, the truth is one of the prices we pay for drama is not getting what we truly want.   How do you see the drama triangle roles between you, your husband and the Indian woman?

From the way you described him.   It's very likely that you are going to get back,  "I haven't done anything wrong.   You shouldn't have snooped."

If you decide to discuss this with him, you want to very carefully stay off the drama triangle.   The thing to do is  

I caught my ex cheating on me one time at a party.  I was stupid and took him back.  I never told my current H that.  I guess I have a severe fear that if he knew, he would feel it would be okay to do it, since my ex did and I took my ex back (my ex was a horrible excuse of a human being).  I guess I feel at this point I'm centered?  Maybe?  Not acting as a victim, persecutor, or rescuer.  I keep asking myself if instigating this drama is really worth it.  I already know he will use the snooping thing and "you don't trust me".  As mentioned before, I can't find evidence that he ever responded or can pick up on anything that would imply he was thinking of meeting up. 

It's right though.  The three points on the triangle.  I may try to be centered, but part of my thinks he would push me (in his mind) to one of the points.  I just don't see anyway to approach this or even bring it up without being it twisted to the snoop/trust thing.  I feel that way because the whole cell phone thing has been a serious issue in the past.  He's already smashed two of my cell phones.  He likes to use the "I don't do it to you because I trust you" (twisting it against me).  If I had hard evidence, like I saw her send a boob shot or saying something like, last night was great, you were a stud... something to that degree, I can already see this would turn out badly from my perspective.  The more I read my writing about the snoop/trust thing.  Now I'm starting to wonder if he did it to see if I would.  I kind of wouldn't put it past him.  Maybe he was baiting me. 

It also doesn't help my case from the other woman that complains about her husband/bf to him.  It's apparent that he likes being the rescuer in these situations.  The compassionate ear, the friend that someone can turn too.  What blows my mind is the stuff she said about her bf... is stuff he has done to me!  How can he not see that? 

I can already tell that I'm not going to confront him.  It's honestly not worth it.  No hard evidence, no respond texts.  If I was able to bring it up in a centered, calm approach, maybe. I just don't see that happening.

[formflier]

Ummm... .I see an third option.  He has brought this woman up to you and sent a text about being friends.

There is nothing out of order about bringing that up again, asking how communications is going and having a general talk about boundaries.

The key is to do it when YOU are centered and he appears ok.

If you have interest in this, I would suggest we sort through it here first, so that you can think it through.

Really good job not reacting and flying off the handle!   

That is really important.

A general comment about snooping.   You usually "find" something you don't want to see.  Then you are left in a pickle.  You want to put it in context, but can't... .because you only get part of the story... or what "appears" to be the story.


FF

[Enabler]

It also doesn't help my case from the other woman that complains about her husband/bf to him.  It's apparent that he likes being the rescuer in these situations.  The compassionate ear, the friend that someone can turn too.  What blows my mind is the stuff she said about her bf... is stuff he has done to me!  How can he not see that? 

It's like a perfect chess move isn't it. They're outraged at other peoples experience yet blissfully unaware of the impact of their own behaviours. My uBPDw used the term "righteous anger" when describing her own anger when I called it out there and then. No, they cannot see it at all as they have limited ability to self-reflect even in hindsight.

[Frankee]

Really good job not reacting and flying off the handle! 

Thank you.  It was really hard to keep a straight face when I wanted to ask What the heck was this.  I had that instant mental brake and I remembered how that reaction has never ended up well in the past.

There is nothing out of order about bringing that up again, asking how communications is going and having a general talk about boundaries.

The key is to do it when YOU are centered and he appears ok.

If you have interest in this, I would suggest we sort through it here first, so that you can think it through.

A general comment about snooping.   You usually "find" something you don't want to see.  Then you are left in a pickle.  You want to put it in context, but can't... .because you only get part of the story... or what "appears" to be the story.

I actually did think of that.  Casually asking if he has heard anything from the other woman.  Then that thought was stopped as well.  He's smart in certain aspects.  He would put two and two together.  He hasn't said anything about the woman texting back.  Then right after he lets me look at his phone, I ask about it.  He might realize I saw that she texted back and then realize I snooped.  It sounds like a stupid child's game of checkers.  It's just unfortunately, this is the types of scenarios I have to be prepared for because of past experiences with him.

To add to my current dilemma, our truck died yesterday.  He made it home and was having problems with it acting like it was starting to die.  He came stomping in, I greeted him and he instantly blew up.  How he was going to have to spend X amount of dollars to get the car fixed, Christmas was off, he was tired of worrying about everyone else, we were going to have to fend for ourselves, how he hasn't even gotten to eat his food because he was dealing with the truck.  I was surprised about the truck, I said I'm sorry to hear there is issues with the truck.  Asked if it died on him.  Then his second job called saying they needed help.  That of course compound his already angry state of mind.  He left and I told him to be careful and I'll see him when he gets home. 

Couple hours later he comes back, without the truck.  He said he made it to the Wal-Mart parking lot so he wasn't freaking out about it.  His second job gave him a ride home.  He seemed to have been able to center his mood and he was acting okay.  We talked for awhile and then he asked what we had to eat.  Told him what I made for dinner.  He said he really didn't want that, ask about couple other things which I said I didn't have.  Then he blew up again.  Ranting on about how anytime he wants something, we don't have it, what the hell are we buying, what is he spending all this money on.  I decided to just make something else he likes and give him some of the dinner I made.  He ate it after his shower.  Then when we're getting ready to go to sleep, he says that he loves me and is sorry for being so angry and taking it out on me.  I told him thank you for apologizing and I loved him.

I've had a couple days to think about this whole thing.  I would like to bring it up.  Just doing the casual mention if he's heard anything.   If he says no, I will know he's lying.  If he does say yes, then I will ask what she said.  I'm going to get past this next holiday and find that moment where I catch him at a good time.  Also it will give enough of a time lapse to where it won't look like I asked because I snooped.  One thing I have learned with my H is if I can play off certain things as not a big deal, but still show I'm slightly bothered, he's more inclined to be more open about things in the future.

[formflier]

Have you spent much time looking over your past threads?

Might be good idea to do periodically.  Think of BPD family as sort of a "journal".

Thoughts?

FF

[Frankee]

This thread came up. The whole cheating issue decided to surface in my mind.  I am not okay with the texts from the woman.  I am not okay with him sending nudes to some women on Craigslist trying to hook up with the both of us or just him.  He was so worked up about having another woman for us, another,girlfriend, that he lost complete sight of the one woman he had.  He lost sight of how in the world he expected to have two when he treated one like garbage.  He was so self absorbed in how own sexual needs that he didn't care how I felt about any of it.  Used threats to attempt to get what he wanted.  Never forced me to do anything, but sure as hell threatened too.

F that.  You Don't do that to people you love.  Having any sort of intimacy with one another should be a safe place.  Where you don't feel forced to do an act or be threatened with an act from the person you are supposed to feel safe with.

I am not okay with what he did.  There is no justification or excuse for any of it.

[formflier]

  Used threats to attempt to get what he wanted.  

When you need "motivation" or "a reminder"... .remember this.

My prayer for you is that you rebuild a life and have the ability to say no. 

At some point in the future I hope you have a satisfying relationship with someone you can so no to... and they don't threaten... the don't flip out... .they respect your no (and expect you to respect theirs).

FF