I would really like to reconnect on some level...

[EdR]

If you guys allow me, I will perhaps update this topic from time to time for therapeutic effect 

I managed to get some sleep again, which is great. I still feel have all these questions in my head, but it seems to be manageable today. Still feels s***ty though...

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[EdR]

So I caved... .

I sent her a short message asking if she perhaps would like to send the occasional update again. I said that I was sorry to perhaps go against her wish for NC and that I thought the complete silence was hard, but I said I would respect it if she wouldn't want to.

She probably will not even read or receive the message. I feel conflicted... .on the one hand I feel terrible for maybe not doing the right thing. On the other hand I am like: dude... .you did nothing wrong.

I am ill right now... .so that clearly weakened my resolve to respect her boundary... .

[babyducks]

Hi EdR.

I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation late.

I'm sorry you are feeling ill.    Yes that will lower your will power.   and effect your judgement.    I hope you are taking care of yourself?    Drinking lots of fluids?    Eating something reasonably healthy? 

 

Hard to tell. Feelings = facts, and the feelings can change at the drop of a hat.
The lack of consistency can be incredibly frustrating

I want to pick up on this for a minute.    Feelings=facts and they change rapidly.     what I learned was that my Ex experienced harmfully intense emotions that could and did swing a huge range within minutes.    The feeling of the moment was the one that mattered.     and she was convinced it was totally true,  there was nothing she could do about it,  and it would last forever.

I mention this because if you get a response,   it will be in reaction to whatever she feels at the moment.    If she is feeling good,  happy,  you will get a good and happy response.   If she is upset and struggling it's more likely you will get a more negative response.     Either way it's not planned, and there is no long term goal.

if you get a response are you prepared for that?   regardless if it's a positive or negative response?   can you see that it's much more about how she copes/deals with her emotions than it is about you and the relationship?

and if you don't get a response what will that mean for you?

thanks for hosting a good thread
'ducks

[EdR]

Hi babyducks!


Thanks for your post. I have been coughing and sneezing for a couple of days now, but today is my weakest day so far. Doing the standard flu stuff... .hope it gets better soon.

I don't expect a reply from her. I do HOPE to get one, but my guess is she will not reply or she won't even read it. It's easy to ignore texts on Messenger by using some kind of option and that way she would not be tempted to react.
Perhaps I should have mailed instead of using the Messenger service... .idk

Too late now though... .

I know her emotions have always played a significant role: most of the times she replied within 15 minutes. But I guess using an 'ignore' option would take away those 'heat of the moment' feelings. Whether they would have been positive or negative.

[EdR]

Still feeling ill guys... .and feeling not so great mentally because of this as well.

I know this sounds stupid, but I could use some support. :-(

[babyducks]

Hi EdR,

I am sorry to hear you aren't feeling better.   This has been a bad year for the flu... .and it's nothing to mess around with.    give yourself an easy day physically... .and mentally too.    

One suggestion for when you are feeling better.    Over on the right hand side of the scroll bar    there is a link that pops up that says "what does it take to make it"   and the first line in the link says this:

There are no easy answers. A relationship with a partner with Borderline Personality Disorder is challenging and requires a great deal of strength, patience, and knowledge

What do you think it means?   Strength, patience and knowledge?    How do you see strength, patience and knowledge fitting into your situation?    How much strength, patience and knowledge do you think are needed?  

I read once here that to be in a relationship (any kind of close personal relationship) with a pwBPD or the traits of the disorder you needed to be very strong within yourself... .our self image, our ability to withstand stress, our ability to accept things we can not change.    

take a moment and dig into that.

I don't expect a reply from her. I do HOPE to get one, but my guess is she will not reply or she won't even read it. It's easy to ignore texts on Messenger by using some kind of option and that way she would not be tempted to react.
Perhaps I should have mailed instead of using the Messenger service... .idk

I know you really hoped to get a response.    I am wondering why.    Not a rhetorical question.   You read a lot of good thoughts upstream.    about not over pursuing.   about respecting her need for space.   about understanding her need for space may be temporary or it may not... . 

what I noticed is you really worked at figuring out how to get a message through to her,   which service is easier to set to ignore... .   and the word that came to mind is compelled.   Compulsion.   Working on our relationship skills,  working on our understanding of relationship is a positive regardless of what happens with our pwBPD.    What do you think drove you to contact her?    What emotion?   and what relationship skill was in play here?    

I know these are tough questions.    I know the answers won't spring readily to mind.     I really believe the answers are part of the 'strength, patience and knowledge'   that the link was talking about.

'ducks

[EdR]

Hi babyducks!

Thank you. Yes, it is some kind of urge. Where does it come from? What causes it?
I have thought about that before... .I thought about my past and present. I don't think there is this great thing in my past which have caused this.

Some things I CAN say however are:
-) could just about anybody trigger this behaviour in me? The answer is a clear NO. I don't like it when people would ignore me and I might ask them about it. But that's about it really. It ends then and there. However it is the closeness of the friendship with her which causes this inside of me. I don't understand it emotionally. How could I feel this emotional connection, but could it be severed so easily and suddenly?
-) what are my true feelings towards her? I have spend days thinking about this. Do I love her? Is that the cause of all of this?
My answer is not a 'yes', but at the same time not a clear 'no' either.
I know I care a lot about her and I do think she is very pretty. But are my feelings really that different from those for my sister? I don't think so.
Could they have become romantic? Well... .I guess so. But are they know?
-) I AM and WAS quite emotionally invested in this r/s / friendship. She shared stuff she didn't share with anyone else. And it's like she denies she ever confided in me that much.
-) I do wonder more and more about her true feelings. With so many people and experts claiming she was catching feelings for me and some of the signals I always tried to rationally deny... .it is like... .is this all because you more than just liked me?

Perhaps I do not have the patience... .But that is probably due to fear of losing contact with her forever.
Like I said before: she is pretty and has these outgoing, extravert, but superficial 2 friends. She will have her share of attention and supply of superficial friends through them for the coming years. She won't need me anymore I guess.

It is REALLY weird, but truth be told: I feel like I am the one abandoning her if I would give up completely. Which should be the other way around, but that is how it feels.
Perhaps this somewhat ties in with this: In the back of my mind I fear that some day she will not be able to cope with the superficial nature of her life and commit suicide.
She clearly fits the archetype of the girl I knew (no r/s, no friendship) almost 10 years ago.
Although that may sound like the most probable cause for my behaviour, it really is something in the back of my mind.

Last but not least I would like to say something about me sending her texts.
I DO feel like I am not doing the right thing and I feel terrible about that.
But I also feel like: what are we really talking about? It is not like I am sending multiple messages a day. Not even multiple messages a week. I have managed to go through more than 2 months without any sign of life from my side. I am NOT pouring my heart out or something like that. I am not crying, yelling or doing any of those things.
I know where she works, I know where she hangs out, I know where she lives, which sportclub she goes to etc. etc... She made sure to tell me all that without me even asking. Still I never used that knowledge to meet her and talk this through.

And yet... .I feel like her silence is almost making me feel like a stalker...

[babyducks]

Nice post EdR -   

there is a lot in there to work with... .what I was thinking as I read what you wrote is how do we create intimacy?    how does one become emotionally invested?    and what does that mean.

I've been told by people who experienced it that people who share an intense emotional experience create a different type of bond.   For example:  total strangers who survive a disaster together become bonded at a deeper and different level.     the sudden intimacy of being together in a building that is on fire... .  crosses over the ordinary and expected boundaries of intimacy.   

I think some of that is in play for me.    I had conversations with my Ex that were totally unique.    and we spoke at a very different level.    right up until we couldn't.    there weren't a lot of boundaries between us and that was both a good and a bad thing.    I miss those conversations.   I know that it's not in my best interests, either emotionally or psychologically to put any more energy into those conversations.   doesn't mean I don't miss them.

'ducks

[EdR]

Nice post EdR -   

there is a lot in there to work with... .what I was thinking as I read what you wrote is how do we create intimacy?    how does one become emotionally invested?    and what does that mean.

I've been told by people who experienced it that people who share an intense emotional experience create a different type of bond.   For example:  total strangers who survive a disaster together become bonded at a deeper and different level.     the sudden intimacy of being together in a building that is on fire... .  crosses over the ordinary and expected boundaries of intimacy.   

I think some of that is in play for me.    I had conversations with my Ex that were totally unique.    and we spoke at a very different level.    right up until we couldn't.    there weren't a lot of boundaries between us and that was both a good and a bad thing.    I miss those conversations.   I know that it's not in my best interests, either emotionally or psychologically to put any more energy into those conversations.   doesn't mean I don't miss them.

'ducks

That's the same for me. The fact that she showed a different side of her around me,  that she put off her mask. That she told me so much about herself, her life and her emotions and feelings.
In some areas she needed a lot of help and I was able to give her that help.

That was both a blessing and a curse in hindsight. That created this strong emotional connection within me and I am sure it was the same for her.

But she just couldn't cope with such a strong emotional connection and I think that was something she did NOT know/expected beforehand. Just before the devaluation she told me the most emotional stuff.

That's when it became a curse. For me, but probably somewhere deep down for her as well.

[RDMaggie]

I will echo Lady Itone's response:

Women are conditioned to be polite.

If it helps, think of it like this:

For one reason or another you end contact with a girl. You explicitly tell her you want no contact, she continues messaging you anyway. You work in the same area and you happen to bump into one another, she says hi. You say hi but keep going. At Christmas you get a barrage of "Merry Christmas" messages, some from numbers you don't even know, and so you return the greeting without paying attention to who sent it (let's say you deleted her as a contact and she's no longer saved in your phone.)

What would you think if this girl interpreted you acknowledging her "hi" and returning her "merry Christmas" as a dismissal of your clearly expressed desire to have no contact?

[EdR]

Hi RDMaggie,

I appreciate your effort, but tbh it feels like I have typed my previous posts for no reason at all then.

We have already established this 'right thing to do' and I also said multiple times that I feel terrible about it.

I think this thread was moving in a different direction. At least I hoped so. More in depth, more able to help me further.

But this sets me back really.

And for the record: I wouldn't put 'banging on the bus window to get my attention' on the same level as 'saying hi'.

Her feelings changed and probably still change. That's for sure. But I was having difficulty accepting this. Just like almost everyone else on these boards.
And if you have any kind of emotional connection, that's tough. It's not like: "oh... my daughter confirmed that she wanted NC. So let's leave her be for the rest of our lives"
That's not natural either...

[RDMaggie]

Hi EDR,

I have gone back and reread the five pages of your post, but I can't find anything about banging on a bus window. I missed something I guess.

I can certainly empathize with you being given the ST/having someone go Nc. I have been in a similar position with another friend. I know how hard it can be when someone you've been incredibly close with suddenly cuts contact. I had a friend of the opposite sex that I was very close with from childhood until age 20. He supported me through the death of my father and I supported him through the sudden loss of his brother. Then one day, poof. NC. I never got closure or any real answer and I was gutted.

I want you to feel supported. I also want to help give you some insight as to how your behavior might be perceived. I don't doubt that you care for your friend and want nothing but the best for her, what your action/behavior says is "I don't respect your boundaries." --- As difficult as it is to accept, she doesn't owe you a reason or closure.

I'm not trying to suggest you shouldn't care or be hurt by her actions.

Best wishes

[EdR]

Thank you RDMaggie!

Yeah... .I have posted quite a lot about this situation here, but probably less in this thread then.
When she began her devaluation phase there were a lot of mixed signals. That's been no different for more than a year now. I already said to her at the very start of that phase that it would probably be for the best if I would not contact her for a while. But back then both she AND her parents said explicitly that was not what she wanted.
I did NOT understand. There seemed and seems to be this big discrepancy. I asked her to talk about it, but we never had that talk. She pretended nothing was the matter and nothing ever happened. But in the mean time I was painted black.
There were several small moments of her reaching out or at least giving mixed signals after that.

There was this sudden return to form just before the summer holidays. More than half a year after the start of the devaluation.
But eventually she went haywire again. I asked her to talk about it and she only agreed to text about it at a specific time.
She did not follow through though... .

I was completely devastated and fed up with the situation. That was September. I sent her this nice final mail for closure, just focusing on me and the positive aspects. That would have been the very end.
She suddenly replied though. She greeted me extremely loudly on the street.
In the same week she greeted me from the bus stop.
AND she was banging on the bus window to get my attention.

It seemed like she DID want the contact. But I suggested it just to be minimized to birthdays, special events and congratulations for the time being.

In October she won a medal at a specific event. So I concisely congratulated her. She did NOT reply however. I felt gutted. AGAIN. I did not lose my temper and asked her nicely about his a while later.
NO reply.
That's when I texted her I did not understand and found this very confusing. I ended my text by asking her: does this mean you want to cut off all contact?

And that's when she almost copied my final sentence a few days later in a very weird mail.


Yeah... .I feel gutted as well.

[babyducks]

Hi EdR,

That's the same for me. The fact that she showed a different side of her around me,  that she put off her mask. That she told me so much about herself, her life and her emotions and feelings.
In some areas she needed a lot of help and I was able to give her that help.

a couple of thoughts about this... .

my experience was that people with BPD don't have masks... .not in that they are covering 'a true self'... .they often change their persons, opinions or beliefs depending on who they are with.   because they have an unstable sense of self... .or an incomplete one they mirror back the people they are around.   

so yes she probably mirrors back her two friends.     and yes she mirrored back you in your relationship with her.    it took me a long time to catch on to the fact that my Ex mirrored me back... .and the person I grew to care for so deeply was... .well... .Me.    or a reflection of me.   No wonder I wanted so badly to help and support.

so let me ask?    are you convinced that there is nothing down this road for you?   that attempting to communicate is not productive?

'ducks

[EdR]

I would like to answer with a big 'YES', but I would be lying.

I am aware of the concept of mirroring and I believe that has taken place. But like I said before on these boards, I don't believe in the 'I was in love with myself' (or friends with in this case). That's just too convenient.

Mirroring is not BPD exclusive. And tbh the people who are considered to be the most social are often the ones who use this technique the most.

[Skip]

Mirroring is not BPD exclusive. And tbh the people who are considered to be the most social are often the ones who use this technique the most.

You are right. This is human nature and a necessary component of socializing. pwBPD can do it to an extreme. Where it breaks down is when someone mirrors to the point that they are self sacrificing and become resentful about it later. This is also common in people with BPD traits.

[EdR]

I feel she wasn't self-sacrificing in her mirroring behaviour towards ME. I don't think the mirroring of me was extreme. The person she seemed to be around me, seemed to be way closer to the girl she was in primary school according to friends and family.
I DO feel her mirroring of her 2 friends is extreme.
Music taste, clothing, makeup, choice in friends, parties etc. etc...

I would say THAT mirroring almost forced her to change her attitude towards me. Don't know if I explained it well enough though... .

[CMJ]

How're things going EdR?

[EdR]

How're things going EdR?

Hi CMJ! Thanks for checking in on me; I really appreciate that 

I didn't contact her anymore and I haven't seen her these last few weeks, what helps... .at least to some extent. From time to time I still feel like I am in a bad place; I still just don't get it and it makes me feel sad to be honest.

But I try to move forward. I'm just not really sure how. I don't want to jump in and try to start making new -best?- friends... .I feel like they would be able to sense that I am a little shaken and confused socially. But doing nothing is not a great option either... .
For now, I am just focussing on work and everyday chores ;-)