He's contacted me. I'd like to try again. How do I do this? (Part 1)

[isilme]

Clause A)  Jumping at breadcrumbs, booty calls, and rededicating yourself to him, while he plays the field... .

Clause B)  is not going to earn you any respect - it will devalue you in your and his eyes.

If you do A, you end up at B.

But especially the second one I find hard. What should I do to keep me from devaluing myself?

Don't do A. You can only be on the leash if you put on the collar.  If you don't like even part of the aspect listed above, YOU make the hard choice to set a boundary about what you accept from him.

If YOU want a casual, open relationship with you on call to provide emotional and physical affection and support as he dictates, while you both play the filed, or you are fine being dedicated to him while HE plays the filed - then change nothing.

If you do. not. like. this. do. not. see. him. or at least put the brakes on a muddy, confusing, friends with benefits relationship until you can establish that is it for the kind of relationship that makes you NOT feel devalued.

This is why I stated you sound lonely:  you are willing to accept an unsatisfying version of a relationship with a person who is broken up with you and is not dating you, is seeing other people, keeps blaming you for why he is broken up with you, rather than cut this off until you can find safe boundaries you can keep to protect you.  You are willing to stay in a situation and let him call the shots pretty much, where he has his cake - you and gets to eat it too, date around.  

Many couples are fine being open - I know some who have kids and are married and for them, it only works because they BOTH agree to the ground rules - they happy swing all over, and respect those of us who are fixed in our relationships. If the wife or husband hated it, got jealous or felt devalued by it, they'd have been divorced long ago, or very unhappy now.  

Please reverse this a second - what if he was chasing you, but you were the one seeing at least one other guy?  How would HE react if you reversed the treatment of only calling when you need him or want to be sure he's not moving on?  

NC is not necessarily forever.  But it's a good place to get yourself sorted if you need that time and space to figure out what you REALLY want.  LC (Limited contact) is NC-light, where you set terms for how often and when, and by what medium, you will be in contact.  You could benefit from a boundary about your contact at this time, and if things improve, you can revise that boundary.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

This is why I stated you sound lonely... .

A lot of us sought to recover the "good relationship" we had. I know in my case, the first two years with my ex, she was incredible. I remember chasing after it. My partner did too.

And as you say, isilme, loneliness, insecurity or even fear can also keep us trying to save a relationship that is seriously struggling.

This is bloomings first serious relationship... .those are always painful losses. We learn as we have more relationships to accept loss.

73%+ of our members recycled 3 or more times (that is not a good thing).

                 Break-up/make-up cycles



              Single break-up (no recycles) is 10%

blooming, what do you think it is that drives you?

If you don't like even part of the aspect listed above, YOU make the hard choice to set a boundary about what you accept from him. ~ isilme

We need to honor our core independent values (and communicate the boundaries constructively) in all relationships. If I have a child, I need to constructively let the people I date know that it is a package deal. If that doesn't work for them, they are not bad or wrong, they just aren't right for me, now. We can be coffee buddies, or gym friends.

We have a good values article here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[isilme]

Why is he being so vague? Why can't he show me that he actually wants me back?

BPD makes people wary of actual commitments because you can then abandon them.  It's far better, to them, to "keep you on a leash" to pull you in when wanted and be able to push you away (but not too far) when they feel smothered.

If you do not like this dynamic, you are the only one mentally aware enough to work to change it.

Years ago, H and I had been dating for about a decade - this was pretty much right before I found this site.  We lived together since we were 19.  I was the breadwinner, supporting both of us with some help from his parents until I could get a better job and no longer needed their help.  He was lost, did not know what he wanted, and was a huge flirt who wanted that emotional supply from the initial meeting of someone new, someone who'd not seen his rages, not seen him in tears depressed, not witnessed the ups and downs of his REAL life.  He wanted people who he felt he could "start fresh" with and re-invent himself.  He was certainly an emotional cheater, chatting online to stroke his ego, and yes, I know of a few incidents that progressed beyond emotional cheating.  At the same time, he wanted the stability and security of me being at home.  I am not a super strong person, grew up neglected and abused, so for me, breadcrumbs of affection were like mountains.  His arguments were ones I see on this board all the time:  "I love you but I am not IN love with you."  "We're not married, I can do what I want." 

So, I philosophized my way around my jealousy, my feelings of it being unfair and wrong, and I told myself I would be a bigger person if I just accepted it.  I quashed my desires for marraige as old fashoined, closed minded, that I needed to be a more accepting person to deserve to be loved.

But, (and I don't know most people's ages on here) for me, something happened as I passed age 30 (now passed age 40) - I grew stronger, realized I'd survived a crazy childhood and was still considered a pretty decent/nice person.  I realized I graduated college on my own with my scholarship, got a job on my own with my skills and personality, kept it with my work ethic.  I made friends, some decent friends.  They made me feel worth something.  We never had "heart to hearts" about my r/s with H, they were his friend, too.  They spoke to HIM at times, telling him he was being a jerk.  Also, he'd do weird things like introduce me to the girls he was flirting with and sometimes quasi dating - and after meeting me, they would often stop talking to him, as I was not the ball and chain I must have been portrayed as. 

Anyway, after 30, some of your worries about what people think seem to die away. Not all, but telling someone what you think seems to get a little easier.  I finally hit a point where I felt my life was NOT fair.  I had been NC with sociopath abusive dad since I was 19.  I was in LC with my bipolar, abusive, identity stealing mom for half a decade.  I realized that sometimes you just have to let people who are toxic to your well being go, regardless of the expectations for forgiving and forgetting.  (a neat thing I read recently helping a friend with her abusive mom and reconciling her feelings with the tenants of Christianity.  You can forgive on your own, but it takes BOTH people to reconcile.  I feel overall, I have forgiven my parents as much as I am able, but I cannot reconcile with them as they will never admit to any wrongdoing or change their behavior or feel remorse.)   I realized I might be better overall if I just lived on my own, and let him do whatever.  I realized if I could live without mom or dad in my life, or any family at all for that matter, as painful as it would be at first, I could live without H.  I did not even have future dating in mind, just planned to adopt some furbabies and move on.  I had let him know in the past when he'd make accusations that I was going to leave him, that if I ever got so upset I left, that was it, that I am not one to play games of break up, back together, break up back together. 

So, I did not make a grand gesture of leaving, threats, ultimatums.  I called him out during a terrible month-long series of fights about his behavior with other women.  I told him it was NOT fair to me, it was disrespectful, and I would no longer stay if he wanted to date others.  I told him I wanted marriage, I was tired of being "just a girlfriend" after a decade.  I started trying to save for my own apartment.  I got a surprise check after quitting my old job for a pension I never knew I had, and managed to put a down payment on a car.  My own car.  We'd been sharing H's.  This seemed to shake him up - a good result, but not something I'd even hoped would happen.  I was disengaging, and really getting ready to just go, trying to make up my mind what I could live with and what I could not:  I could live with never getting married, but not with him cheating.  I could live with many thigns as they were, but really, the cheating/flirting all ahd to stop. 

Then, over a period of months, he somehow changed.  Maybe it took him getting to be in his 30s as well,  I don't quite know.  It was not easy.  The fights lessened, but he was still dragging his feet, but growing up at the same time.  But, after many years of intermittent work, he got a full-time job.  He bought a house (after years of stating he'd never do this), then, even though we were still not engaged, made a formal invitation to me to share his house.  He stopped the online chatting, the hanging around other women.  He displayed affection to me in public.  For so many years he'd told me to NOT hold his hand, to not ask for hugs or kisses.  Some friends had thought we were brother and sister instead of a couple.   

He finished school.  He has managed himself well through some terrible job situations, he finally proposed, we got married.  Overall, things are a lot better today than they used to be, I have found a lot of his rages tie to things like blood sugar levels and illness, as well as BPD's inability to manage emotions.  We are obviously still working as you can see by my posts, 10 years after finding BPD Family.

I posted all this to both let you know I am not making flippant responses to your situation and hoping you can see that I mean it when I say YOU have to be the one to initiate a change for YOU.  What do you want from this relationship?  Is it something he can even give, or can give right now?  His actions and reposnses say, "No.".  Where does that leave you?  If contact with him is just pouring lemon juice on a wound, you should consider the boundary of NC/LC to protect yourself.  Given a little exBF-free time that you ahve chosen, not that he has imposed on you, MIGHT help you see things from antoher angle. 

[MyBPD_friend]

Islime,
What a great post and story.
It sounds like my female friend who I don't want to give up.
Her bf is the situation you were in.

I too she can learn and I hope she will understand that I'm  her real friend.

[isilme]

I was just a slow learner in respecting myself at all - H even told me to not be a doormat regarding other people (regarding him, that was different  ).

It took us about 15 years being together, through a lot of hard situations, to get where we are now, going on 22 years together.

By the time I learned about BPD, we had been living together with joint finances for 10 years.  We had pets together, shared property, we used the same car.  Hell, 2 years in we were in that boat.  So if I had chosen to leave, it would have been very little different than a divorce for some couples, which is one reason I stuck things out.  In many, many ways, H and I are well suited for each other.  If I was a less codependent person and he did not have BPD, I feel we'd still have ended up together, things may have just followed a more traditional timeline. 

I am not advocating blooming choosing to try for a continued relationship, or to leave it cold turkey - I just want her aware that at this time she is in a good place to evaluate what she wants in life, out of a partner, and to think about how a pwBPD reacts, how much work goes into YOU before you can be any help to them, how our needs often push them away and we need to be stronger than our own hurt much of the time.  You have to be a pretty deep well yourself to be able to exist and manage to thrive in any manner in a relationship that has BPD involved.

She is not (to my knowledge) financially tied to this exBF.  She does not seem to share much by way of property or living space with him that would get messy to untangle - remembering to give him back a few DVDs or a house key is a lot less heartwrenching than deciding who gets the cats you both raised for 10 years, or even worse, an honest to God human child you made together 

She is in a good place to look at what he offers, and what she needs, and see if they are compatible.  Unfortunately, his push/pull dynamic of trying to "keep her on a leash" is making such honest evaluations hard.  Even if she can commit herself to just one to two weeks of NC for good, honest self-reflection, all of this may be less distressing.

[MyBPD_friend]

... .and to think about how a pwBPD reacts, how much work goes into YOU before you can be any help to them, how our needs often push them away and we need to be stronger than our own hurt much of the time.  You have to be a pretty deep well yourself to be able to exist and manage to thrive in any manner in a relationship that has BPD involved.

Isilme, you must be one of a few successful couples who've made a realtionship and change possible - it's nice and good to read, and it is very inspiring.

I agree what you say. One has to be extremely strong and a grown up personality to be able to handle a BPD rs, whether it's a romantic rs or a close friendship.
I've worked on myself my whole life becoming ONE person and a strong individual, as painful as it was at times. All that after a horrible accident and multiple traumas in early childhood. I grew stronger and stronger - my wonderful wife was a big and major help in that process until today.

When I met my BPD female friend last year, the time we've spent together, her behaviour and emotions, that all was a new traumatic experiences and it needed almost a year so sort things. I saw myself in her, my pain as a child, and I saw her pain.
I grew stronger again and I do feel strong enough, for that reason and because she means a lot to me, I decided to stay friend with her, try to understand her unstable emotions and her broken personality and her style of communication with me. She too had these terrible traumatic experiences when she was a young girl. So far, she can't really talk about it with me. I told her that I won't question her past anymore, I know she will slowly gain some trust and will finally open up, it takes time.
Fortunately she lives 180 miles away and I'm in a very stable marrige with my wonderful wife.

[blooming]

Acceptance the reality for what it is, not what you want it to be. Radical acceptance. You are not in relationship continuance mode - the old relationship died and its over. He is in dating mode.

This is not so bad. When you met him, you were both in dating mod. You did dating things, you connected, you started a relationship. Reconnecting is really going back through this process - but differently, smarter, better, etc.

That may work, it may not. Just like the first time.

Spend time helping other members like yourself, here at bpdfamily.  You will learn form helping and eventually teaching. You will find yourself as you advise and share with others.

Connect with your values and clarify your romantic goals. And pursue them. One of those is to not invest your life and sit on the sideline for any man. You can pursue him. You can also pursue others and other things at the same time. 

This will help you connect with yourself and better understand the right relationship for you and how to attract it and be that partner.

You're right! It's just hard to forget everything that happened between us and everything we've been through together and start a new, I'd say it's pretty much impossible actually. I can't look at him as if I've just met him.

And you're right, it's good to connect with myself again and try to think of what I want from a relationship. It's just hard because I'm kind of blinded by him and by wanting to go back to what we had so badly. Although I know somewhere that that will probably not be possible, since it seems like he lost his respect for me.

[blooming]

If you do A, you end up at B.

Don't do A. You can only be on the leash if you put on the collar.  If you don't like even part of the aspect listed above, YOU make the hard choice to set a boundary about what you accept from him.

If YOU want a casual, open relationship with you on call to provide emotional and physical affection and support as he dictates, while you both play the filed, or you are fine being dedicated to him while HE plays the filed - then change nothing.

Very true indeed. I don't feel like I jumped at every bread crumb or reacted to every booty call, so at least I still have that pride. He was the one who suggested going out for a drink/having the dinner again and I think he has suggested me coming over to his house at night about 6 or 7 times and all those times I rejected. Sunday was a mistake, but I had drunk a bit too much wine and I was feeling very hurt about how that conversation had gone, we had really opened up to eachother and I felt very vulnerable and I just wanted him to hold me. I know it was stupid though.

I also made clear to him that if we wanted to try again that it would be us and only us (so exclusive dating) and he said that was not a problem, but of course I'm not sure if he's speaking the truth.

If you do. not. like. this. do. not. see. him. or at least put the brakes on a muddy, confusing, friends with benefits relationship until you can establish that is it for the kind of relationship that makes you NOT feel devalued.

Yes, I'm going to do that now! It is everything or nothing for me. If he wants to see me again, then he first needs to make clear to me that he really wants to give this his best shot and he really wants it to work out. I can't handle all this vagueness anymore. But yeah, we haven't been in contact since monday since he requested a week of NC.

This is why I stated you sound lonely:  you are willing to accept an unsatisfying version of a relationship with a person who is broken up with you and is not dating you, is seeing other people, keeps blaming you for why he is broken up with you, rather than cut this off until you can find safe boundaries you can keep to protect you.  You are willing to stay in a situation and let him call the shots pretty much, where he has his cake - you and gets to eat it too, date around.

Kind of hard to read this, but yes, that is indeed exactly the case. I just don't know how to create those safe boundaries to protect myself. I tell myself that I have them, but whenever he starts talking to me I lose them immediately. My mind goes into begging mode, convincing mode, trying desperately to keep him with me mode.

Many couples are fine being open - I know some who have kids and are married and for them, it only works because they BOTH agree to the ground rules - they happy swing all over, and respect those of us who are fixed in our relationships. If the wife or husband hated it, got jealous or felt devalued by it, they'd have been divorced long ago, or very unhappy now.  

Please reverse this a second - what if he was chasing you, but you were the one seeing at least one other guy?  How would HE react if you reversed the treatment of only calling when you need him or want to be sure he's not moving on?

He wouldn't accept it of course. He's too proud and too easily angered for that. Hard to read that he's only contacting me for those reasons though. I notice that I try to tell myself that he's actually contacting me because he still cares for me and misses me and just needs a little time to sort his head out and is taking that step back to protect me and because he really wants it to work... .

NC is not necessarily forever.  But it's a good place to get yourself sorted if you need that time and space to figure out what you REALLY want.  LC (Limited contact) is NC-light, where you set terms for how often and when, and by what medium, you will be in contact.  You could benefit from a boundary about your contact at this time, and if things improve, you can revise that boundary.

We have had a 5 week period of NC already. It's just that when I'm in NC I keep thinking about how he's seeing other women and moving on and that's hard. I do feel like I'm in a much better place mentally than when we first broke up (I can be alone again, I can enjoy things again), but I'm not open yet for other men and it's just hard that he is.

[blooming]

A lot of us sought to recover the "good relationship" we had. I know in my case, the first two years with my ex, she was incredible. I remember chasing after it. My partner did too.

And as you say, isilme, loneliness, insecurity or even fear can also keep us trying to save a relationship that is seriously struggling.

This is bloomings first serious relationship... .those are always painful losses. We learn as we have more relationships to accept loss.

73%+ of our members recycled 3 or more times (that is not a good thing).

blooming, what do you think it is that drives you?

What drives me in recycling this broken relationship again? I think it is chasing after what we used to have, just like you. The way we made eachother feel was incredible. I used to be so happy when I was with him. He made me feel confident for the first time ever. We used to tell eachother how happy we were with eachother, how it felt like this would last forever. I also really want to help him and make him feel better, it just hurts seeing him suffer. And I also just miss him as a friend, we have a lot in common and I just miss our conversations. There's so much driving me. I just can't seem to let him go yet.

We need to honor our core independent values (and communicate the boundaries constructively) in all relationships. If I have a child, I need to constructively let the people I date know that it is a package deal. If that doesn't work for them, they are not bad or wrong, they just aren't right for me, now. We can be coffee buddies, or gym friends.

We have a good values article here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

I'll read the article, I don't think I've read it yet!

[gotbushels]

Hi blooming 

I want to support part of your discussion here.

Do you have advice for making the plan to deal with my reality? What would you suggest?

Acceptance the reality for what it is, not what you want it to be. Radical acceptance. You are not in relationship continuance mode - the old relationship died and its over. He is in dating mode.

Just to clarify, some of the terms take specific meanings on the site--"acceptance" and "radical acceptance"; I want to embellish what I understand of that. It doesn't mean consenting to a specific issue, though there's an element of consent; it doesn't mean being complicit to how things happen between yourself another person, though there's an element of efficacy; it doesn't mean detaching from a situation, though it promotes independent thought. Plainly, learning how to do it doesn't mean you have to default into one particular choice regarding your relationship with this person.

So I strongly support what Skip suggested to your question here. The link is here. One way you can look at it is a path to empowering your state of self such that you can make optimal decisions that work for you. I think looking at "acceptance" like that is much more attractive than seeing it as a way to provide security for any want of detachment. Acceptance (per the community definitions) was (at times) a major, major part in keeping my relationship going. So I highly recommend it.

What should I do to keep me from devaluing myself?

Connect with your values and clarify your romantic goals.

I highly, highly support this too. Having a clear sense of your own values will help you massively. Maybe this might help. If you imagine yourself as a sailing boat, and you wanted to chart a course through "valuable" seas, you need to look at a map. See what seas you want your boat to go through, and what seas you don't. The easiest way to ensure your boat is in valuable seas is to know where and what the valuable sea looks like. Knowing your values is like knowing the map. If you don't start with that, you're basically sailing blind. Therefore--by not knowing your values--you're automatically leaving yourself open to sailing the seas of devaluation. Recognise your own values.   

[blooming]

All my friends who know about her (those I told), including my wife, every one, even psychologists said should run away and stay away from her.

But that's not me, I try to understand , even things that are very difficult to understand and things that might look very crazy. I did built up a lot of understanding for BPD people, and doing all that can really hurt - I know.

I am in the same situation. My friends, family, psychologist all say that my ex is trouble, that I will never be good enough in his eyes, whatever I do. That I should leave now and don't come back. But I just can't.

What counts for me is, I really like her very much, as a close friend. That's the reason why I don't give up easily.

I do know, that this is a very different situation compared to yours as it's your ex and you still seem to love and care about him.

And I also like him as a person/a friend, not just romantically, so I understand where you're coming from.

My amateur advise is, do your things, don't get too emotional, live your life and see what happens, see if he can change a bit to the better.
At some point you probably need to make a decision what's best for you and to open up your life for other options.

Yes, I'll try to do this! To live my life to the fullest as much as possible and just see in what way he wants to be a part of that. But it's hard to not get emotional about it, although I try and it's already going a little better, especially when we are in NC like this week. But whenever he starts talking to me my head just goes crazy and all I want is him, whatever it takes. It's quite exhausting. I hope he can change a little for the better.

Best wishes from Germany

PS: perhaps it would be good to read this text if you haven't done it already.
https://www.dailystrength.org/group/physical-emotional-abuse/discussion/lonly-child

This text really helped me a lot to understand myself and my motives not to give up that friend - yet.

Thank you, I'll read the post!

[blooming]

Hello

I've been trough this 3 times so far. Now we are in the 3rd "i need space->let's break-up for a while". There's a guide on this site that should help you to understand why they need space/time and how to give it to them.

First 2 times she needed space she just kissed with other guys. It was a shock when i found out as I took it as her moving on. She came back to me.  3rd time was strike trough my heart as i've found she had sex multiple times with her "new partner".
  Now I'm at the crossroads. She took some space and failed to give it to her. I've found out that she had sex multiple times shortly after she broke-up with me and broke the No Contact rule. I'm not sure if our relation will return as her mother and friends despise me. We saw eachother few times in secret. She confesed her love for me yet her actions prove otherwise...
  I just have to give her time and see where this goes. Right now it looks dead by the consequences of our "fight", but the feelings are still there for both of us

  The biggest pain in those relations is that when the stress level is high, you have to let them go and accept that they will run for a while with another partner.

Do you have a link to that guide? I think it would be very helpful. And yes, indeed that's the biggest pain. As soon as the stress is too high he leaves.

Your situation sounds very difficult, please take care!

[blooming]

BPD makes people wary of actual commitments because you can then abandon them.  It's far better, to them, to "keep you on a leash" to pull you in when wanted and be able to push you away (but not too far) when they feel smothered.

If you do not like this dynamic, you are the only one mentally aware enough to work to change it.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Although I don't know how to change it! How do I make him aware of his behaviour? How do I make him aware of that I won't abandon him?

Years ago, H and I had been dating for about a decade - this was pretty much right before I found this site.  We lived together since we were 19.  I was the breadwinner, supporting both of us with some help from his parents until I could get a better job and no longer needed their help.  He was lost, did not know what he wanted, and was a huge flirt who wanted that emotional supply from the initial meeting of someone new, someone who'd not seen his rages, not seen him in tears depressed, not witnessed the ups and downs of his REAL life.  He wanted people who he felt he could "start fresh" with and re-invent himself.  He was certainly an emotional cheater, chatting online to stroke his ego, and yes, I know of a few incidents that progressed beyond emotional cheating.  At the same time, he wanted the stability and security of me being at home.  I am not a super strong person, grew up neglected and abused, so for me, breadcrumbs of affection were like mountains.  His arguments were ones I see on this board all the time:  "I love you but I am not IN love with you."  "We're not married, I can do what I want." 

So, I philosophized my way around my jealousy, my feelings of it being unfair and wrong, and I told myself I would be a bigger person if I just accepted it.  I quashed my desires for marraige as old fashoined, closed minded, that I needed to be a more accepting person to deserve to be loved.

But, (and I don't know most people's ages on here) for me, something happened as I passed age 30 (now passed age 40) - I grew stronger, realized I'd survived a crazy childhood and was still considered a pretty decent/nice person.  I realized I graduated college on my own with my scholarship, got a job on my own with my skills and personality, kept it with my work ethic.  I made friends, some decent friends.  They made me feel worth something.  We never had "heart to hearts" about my r/s with H, they were his friend, too.  They spoke to HIM at times, telling him he was being a jerk.  Also, he'd do weird things like introduce me to the girls he was flirting with and sometimes quasi dating - and after meeting me, they would often stop talking to him, as I was not the ball and chain I must have been portrayed as. 

Anyway, after 30, some of your worries about what people think seem to die away. Not all, but telling someone what you think seems to get a little easier.  I finally hit a point where I felt my life was NOT fair.  I had been NC with sociopath abusive dad since I was 19.  I was in LC with my bipolar, abusive, identity stealing mom for half a decade.  I realized that sometimes you just have to let people who are toxic to your well being go, regardless of the expectations for forgiving and forgetting.  (a neat thing I read recently helping a friend with her abusive mom and reconciling her feelings with the tenants of Christianity.  You can forgive on your own, but it takes BOTH people to reconcile.  I feel overall, I have forgiven my parents as much as I am able, but I cannot reconcile with them as they will never admit to any wrongdoing or change their behavior or feel remorse.)   I realized I might be better overall if I just lived on my own, and let him do whatever.  I realized if I could live without mom or dad in my life, or any family at all for that matter, as painful as it would be at first, I could live without H.  I did not even have future dating in mind, just planned to adopt some furbabies and move on.  I had let him know in the past when he'd make accusations that I was going to leave him, that if I ever got so upset I left, that was it, that I am not one to play games of break up, back together, break up back together. 

So, I did not make a grand gesture of leaving, threats, ultimatums.  I called him out during a terrible month-long series of fights about his behavior with other women.  I told him it was NOT fair to me, it was disrespectful, and I would no longer stay if he wanted to date others.  I told him I wanted marriage, I was tired of being "just a girlfriend" after a decade.  I started trying to save for my own apartment.  I got a surprise check after quitting my old job for a pension I never knew I had, and managed to put a down payment on a car.  My own car.  We'd been sharing H's.  This seemed to shake him up - a good result, but not something I'd even hoped would happen.  I was disengaging, and really getting ready to just go, trying to make up my mind what I could live with and what I could not:  I could live with never getting married, but not with him cheating.  I could live with many thigns as they were, but really, the cheating/flirting all ahd to stop. 

Then, over a period of months, he somehow changed.  Maybe it took him getting to be in his 30s as well,  I don't quite know.  It was not easy.  The fights lessened, but he was still dragging his feet, but growing up at the same time.  But, after many years of intermittent work, he got a full-time job.  He bought a house (after years of stating he'd never do this), then, even though we were still not engaged, made a formal invitation to me to share his house.  He stopped the online chatting, the hanging around other women.  He displayed affection to me in public.  For so many years he'd told me to NOT hold his hand, to not ask for hugs or kisses.  Some friends had thought we were brother and sister instead of a couple.   

He finished school.  He has managed himself well through some terrible job situations, he finally proposed, we got married.  Overall, things are a lot better today than they used to be, I have found a lot of his rages tie to things like blood sugar levels and illness, as well as BPD's inability to manage emotions.  We are obviously still working as you can see by my posts, 10 years after finding BPD Family.

I posted all this to both let you know I am not making flippant responses to your situation and hoping you can see that I mean it when I say YOU have to be the one to initiate a change for YOU.  What do you want from this relationship?  Is it something he can even give, or can give right now?  His actions and reposnses say, "No.".  Where does that leave you?  If contact with him is just pouring lemon juice on a wound, you should consider the boundary of NC/LC to protect yourself.  Given a little exBF-free time that you ahve chosen, not that he has imposed on you, MIGHT help you see things from antoher angle. 

You sound like such a strong person, I really admire you and how you handled the situation. I think a lot of people, including me, can learn a great deal from you. I'm so happy to read that your relationship has bettered and that your H has seen the light somewhat.

We have had a 5 week NC period which was not imposed on me, I just decided to not contact him after our last break-up at all. He is the one who initiated contact every single time. It feels like I'm strong enough to let him go a little when he isn't trying to get back in my life, but as soon as he is all that strenght leaves me and all I can think about is getting him back.

I have no idea what our current situation is and how things will work out. I have no idea what he's thinking, what he wants, why he needs this one week NC, if he'll initiate contact again after this week (I know I won't) or if he'll just ignore me again, if it'll be different after this week, if he really wants me back or is just playing with me. I know that if he doesn't want me back and it's over again now, I'll be strong enough to handle it. I also know that if he does want to try again and keeps initiating contact and suggesting meeting up, I won't be strong enough to reject his offers. So very hard.

[blooming]

I was just a slow learner in respecting myself at all - H even told me to not be a doormat regarding other people (regarding him, that was different  ).

My ex said exactly the same thing to me. That I should stand up for myself more and not let other people walk over me. Weird, all those similiarities.

It took us about 15 years being together, through a lot of hard situations, to get where we are now, going on 22 years together.

By the time I learned about BPD, we had been living together with joint finances for 10 years.  We had pets together, shared property, we used the same car.  Hell, 2 years in we were in that boat.  So if I had chosen to leave, it would have been very little different than a divorce for some couples, which is one reason I stuck things out.  In many, many ways, H and I are well suited for each other.  If I was a less codependent person and he did not have BPD, I feel we'd still have ended up together, things may have just followed a more traditional timeline. 

I am not advocating blooming choosing to try for a continued relationship, or to leave it cold turkey - I just want her aware that at this time she is in a good place to evaluate what she wants in life, out of a partner, and to think about how a pwBPD reacts, how much work goes into YOU before you can be any help to them, how our needs often push them away and we need to be stronger than our own hurt much of the time.  You have to be a pretty deep well yourself to be able to exist and manage to thrive in any manner in a relationship that has BPD involved.

She is not (to my knowledge) financially tied to this exBF.  She does not seem to share much by way of property or living space with him that would get messy to untangle - remembering to give him back a few DVDs or a house key is a lot less heartwrenching than deciding who gets the cats you both raised for 10 years, or even worse, an honest to God human child you made together 

She is in a good place to look at what he offers, and what she needs, and see if they are compatible.  Unfortunately, his push/pull dynamic of trying to "keep her on a leash" is making such honest evaluations hard.  Even if she can commit herself to just one to two weeks of NC for good, honest self-reflection, all of this may be less distressing.

Well, we are in NC now for already 3 days, so enough time for self-reflection. I just don't really know where to start or how to do it? I'm so used to putting others first and not thinking about my own needs.

I just want her aware that at this time she is in a good place to evaluate what she wants in life, out of a partner, and to think about how a pwBPD reacts, how much work goes into YOU before you can be any help to them, how our needs often push them away and we need to be stronger than our own hurt much of the time.  You have to be a pretty deep well yourself to be able to exist and manage to thrive in any manner in a relationship that has BPD involved.

This resonates with me a lot. I am aware of the fact that I need to be a very strong person to handle him and to not let his comments get to me and to be able to stand up to him. I'm not sure if I am that person, although I can act like I am and I know I want to be that person. I am in therapy now, so I think I'm becoming that person more and more every day, but I'm nowhere near where I need to be.

My needs definitely pushed him away. I asked too much of him. I had too many issues myself which he couldn't handle in the end. So should I not talk about those kind of stuff with him anymore? How do you handle that?

[isilme]

There are a lot of similarities - Tattered Heart's husband and mine could be frenemies I bet if they met in RL.  They'd likely hit it off then hate each other in a month, since they seem to cycle about the same times, and often about similar triggers :P

Another person's H has far more extreme issues, but again, it's a lot of "I don't want to grow up, be my mom but don't be my mom I hate it," acting out.  Her H also seems to trigger about the same times of year.  So keep reading - you will see how people in this for a few months have been managing, and how those who've been at this for years cope.

It is not ideal - I can't say if ANY r/s is deal, though.  I see in most r/s's around me a person more likely to be emotional, and one more likely to be less so.  I don't know how they manage behind closed doors, and for all I know, many of my friends face similar meltdowns at times.  \

That said, MANY of us did not realize what BPD was and the weight it could be until we were very far into the r/s, very intertwined in finances, family relationships, many have kids before that lightbulb goes off. 

We spend months and years thinking it's all us, they are right we must be horrible partners. 

I am in therapy now, so I think I'm becoming that person more and more every day, but I'm nowhere near where I need to be.

If you are seeing a therapist, have they given you input?  Have you shared this with them?

My needs definitely pushed him away. I asked too much of him. I had too many issues myself which he couldn't handle in the end. So should I not talk about those kind of stuff with him anymore? How do you handle that?[/quote]

May I ask what kinds of needs pushed him away? 

If you are in a place where you are trying to get your own mental health in a better, stronger place, it may be good to continue maintaining some distance from your ex. 

If I am just getting over the flu, I don't seek out someone with pneumonia and hang out.  No,BPD is not "contagious" but you are working to build up emotional antibodies.  If your "emotional immune system" is being taxed too much by another person, then you need space from that person until you can feel you are better inoculated.

I also know that if he does want to try again and keeps initiating contact and suggesting meeting up, I won't be strong enough to reject his offers. So very hard.

You have to be honest when he calls/texts and ask making contact is a good-for-the-long-run or just-good-for-right-now.  I am trying to lose weight.  Eating cake is good for now, but not good for the long run.  It might make me happy for a few minutes, but sad for a week.  Is that a good trade-out?  Saying no to the cake now might be hard, at least the first time, but later I can feel I made a strong decision, I can feel better turning down cake later, OR I can plan for the cake and work out a little extra to allow me a LITTLE cake, and realize it's in my power to do so. 

Choosing to not respond is well within your power.  So is dictating the level of interaction you choose to have.  You can meet for dinner/lunch. And the leave.  You can go for a walk, go see a movie, and you can even plan a few polite reasons to leave early if it's going bad, before a fight, before anything that may turn unpleasantly emotional you can't manage.  I kinda recommend a big NO at this time to staying past certain times in each others'homes - I think that just makes everything more confused - I sound like a mom giving you a curfew, but letting him see he has complete access to you whenever he wants with nothing really on his end to deliver is totally unfair to you. You are allowed to set terms for access to you.  This is not mean, it is actually healthy. 

We have had a 5 week NC period which was not imposed on me, I just decided to not contact him after our last break-up at all. He is the one who initiated contact every single time.

It kinda WAS imposed on you - it does not sound like it was YOUR boundary, he just chose not to contact you and you acquiesced to his timeline for contact.  You passively allowed him to cut contact and initiate, all of his feelings, not yours.  YOU did not choose the NC, it seems, you simply went along with it until he ended it.  That's not really setting a boundary about protecting YOU and giving YOU control of your side of this r/s.

You say you are NC again right now.  How do you think you respond when he contacts you? 

As for putting others first... .

If he can't help you with your needs, and your needs stress him out, then to be able to be around him you need to address your needs BEFORE being around him.  In a healthy r/s, you SHOULD be able to talk to him about your needs, about what you want, what's bothering you.  But BPD r/s are pretty much unhealthy, or at the very least, very uneven in the abilitiy of the partners to support each other (else, we'dnot be on this site discussing it).  You have to be able to self-care as much as you can - I am not saying hide your problems, but yes, you can't share what you want carte blanc with him and not have him overload. 

Remember, if he is contacting you, he is in the PULL stage.  This does not have a time limit, it could last weeks, it could last hours.  He WILL PUSH you away again.  How hard, how long, and in what manner, and if he looks for someone else to pull in the meantime no one can say.

I'm NC with my parents.  If they try to contact me, I will likely ignore them, because they don't get to choose when I am their daughter and when I am not - you disown your kid, in writing, you no longer have a daughter and it's not an on/off deal.  I am the one who chooses when the NC ends, regardless of who initiates contact - NC is a boundary to protect ME, not me just going along with them.  They have tried a few times in subtle and/or mean ways to initiate contact - dad used my boss as an excuse to come "visit" my office, I nearly ran out of the room (he was phyiscally abusive and invokes a fight or flight response in me).  I believe there will be a couple of deathbed confessionals coming.  I do not want to be heartless, but also am not interested in granting anyone absolution - that's not my job as I am not longer their daughter, in writing, and higher Power will have to do that. 

I think much like a person with a cold, you need to look at periods of NC like a healthy self-quarantine from BPD emotionally damaging behavior.  Just because he says "Jump" does not mean you have to ask "how high", and while it may feel good to see him initially, it's obviously hurting you enough to bring you here after - the cake can taste good, but then it makes you feel sick.

[once removed]

Well, we are in NC now for already 3 days, so enough time for self-reflection. I just don't really know where to start or how to do it? I'm so used to putting others first and not thinking about my own needs.

NC (no contact) is a tool for detaching. its a mentality, a mindset, a hard limit, that doesnt lend itself well to bettering a relationship or reversing a breakup.

theres a big difference between NC and giving or taking space... .if we are crowding a person, it tends to push them away.

from 30,000 ft up, your ex wants to play the field, and doesnt want anything commitment heavy. ive had girls in the past tell me they liked me, but werent sure how much, and didnt want to move too fast. typically, when i heeded that, things slowly picked up. this is a very similar situation.

what drew his attention? you were living your best life, strong, and independent. thats attractive to anyone. for an ex, it gives the impression that things have changed, and that reconciliation is possible.

what happened? he showed his attention and you went all in. things got too heavy, he said so when he said his head was full of "waaaaay too full with everything and more". too much too soon.

the answer, i dont think, is to "stand up to him" per se, or to try to force him to be on the same page as you.  its to get some perspective, see the situation for what it is, look at what works and what doesnt, and shift gears.

the situation, as i see it, is the very early stages of dating. there arent clear loyalties, both parties are free to "play the field" and arent committed. the match is usually made when there is connection, which turns into growth over time. the "heavy stuff" tends to strangle and kill that connection, i know, ive done it myself. keeping things fun and sexy in the initial stages tends to better lend itself to that connection.

he suggested contact in a week or so, right? then its likely he will initiate that contact. if he doesnt, i might send something light, funny, upbeat, or something "newsworthy", no strings attached. if it becomes more, maybe casually suggest drinks, or something fun. keep it fun, light, and have a good time. odds are pretty likely that will leave him wanting more.

[Tattered Heart]

So is dictating the level of interaction you choose to have.  You can meet for dinner/lunch. And the leave.  You can go for a walk, go see a movie, and you can even plan a few polite reasons to leave early if it's going bad, before a fight, before anything that may turn unpleasantly emotional you can't manage.  I kinda recommend a big NO at this time to staying past certain times in each others'homes - I think that just makes everything more confused - I sound like a mom giving you a curfew, but letting him see he has complete access to you whenever he wants with nothing really on his end to deliver is totally unfair to you. You are allowed to set terms for access to you.  This is not mean, it is actually healthy. 

I like what isilme is saying in regards to you deciding what kind of interaction you have with your ex and how long that interaction lasts. When he texts you how do you respond? Do you get excited and jump at the opportunity to interact or do you give yourself a little space, wait a little bit before responding, get your thoughts and emotions in line, then respond?

what happened? he showed his attention and you went all in. things got too heavy, he said so when he said his head was full of "waaaaay too full with everything and more". too much too soon.

the answer, i dont think, is to "stand up to him" per se, or to try to force him to be on the same page as you.  its to get some perspective, see the situation for what it is, look at what works and what doesnt, and shift gears.

the situation, as i see it, is the very early stages of dating. there arent clear loyalties, both parties are free to "play the field" and arent committed. the match is usually made when there is connection, which turns into growth over time. the "heavy stuff" tends to strangle and kill that connection, i know, ive done it myself. keeping things fun and sexy in the initial stages tends to better lend itself to that connection. 

once removed is saying the same. In a way, think of your relationship as more like a new relationships than a long term one. Sure you have history, but if you could reset things again, start the relationship over, what would it look like? What would you do differently? This is your opportunity to change that. Use this time to really begin focusing on you.

Do some things that may feel a little selfish. Evaluate your own values and determine what is and what is not important to you in a relationship (not just with him, but with anyone) and figure out how you can set up parameters to incorporate those values into all your relationships.

[blooming]

If you are seeing a therapist, have they given you input?  Have you shared this with them?

Yes, I share everything with her. I've known her for quite some time (she was my therapist all through the three years of my eating disorder), so she's also a friend I guess. She wants me to let him go, she says it'll never be enough for him, that I'll never be good enough for him, that I just could never do everything right, so that it's pretty much doomed. She is also the one who pretty much diagnosed him with BPD based on all my stories. That's why I came here.

She recommended me to take this week of NC to organize my own thoughts and I want and need from a relationship and whether or not he is able to give that to me. So kind of the same advice as you gave me. It's just that I can't accept that I should let him go, I just can't. I keep wishing that something will be different this time. That it'll be like it was in the first year of our relationship.

Today is his birthday, so I guess I'll congratulate him and break the NC (just with a birthday wish, nothing else). Curious to see how he'll respond.

My needs definitely pushed him away. I asked too much of him. I had too many issues myself which he couldn't handle in the end. So should I not talk about those kind of stuff with him anymore? How do you handle that?

May I ask what kinds of needs pushed him away?

I've had an eating disorder for three years and I was just recovered (for as much as that's possible any way) when I met him. So I still struggled with bad body image from time to time, hating myself and wanting to be out out out of my body. He struggled with that a lot, seeing someone he loved and found attractive hate herself that much. I also went through a occupational burnout last year, so I was very tired for about 2 months, not able to do a lot of my usual activities. And I've been quite ill (including one week in hospital) on multiple occasions. And I'm someone who, when I don't feel very well or am worried about something, shares that immediately. So I think it was all just too much for him, which I  understand quite well. I'm doing better now though, mentally.

You have to be honest when he calls/texts and ask making contact is a good-for-the-long-run or just-good-for-right-now.  I am trying to lose weight.  Eating cake is good for now, but not good for the long run.  It might make me happy for a few minutes, but sad for a week.  Is that a good trade-out?  Saying no to the cake now might be hard, at least the first time, but later I can feel I made a strong decision, I can feel better turning down cake later, OR I can plan for the cake and work out a little extra to allow me a LITTLE cake, and realize it's in my power to do so.  

Choosing to not respond is well within your power.  So is dictating the level of interaction you choose to have.  You can meet for dinner/lunch. And the leave.  You can go for a walk, go see a movie, and you can even plan a few polite reasons to leave early if it's going bad, before a fight, before anything that may turn unpleasantly emotional you can't manage.  I kinda recommend a big NO at this time to staying past certain times in each others'homes - I think that just makes everything more confused - I sound like a mom giving you a curfew, but letting him see he has complete access to you whenever he wants with nothing really on his end to deliver is totally unfair to you. You are allowed to set terms for access to you.  This is not mean, it is actually healthy.

Yes, that's a very good idea, giving myself a curfew. I really need to set those terms and I really really want to, so I hope I can keep that up when we have contact again. If those terms are something he can't handle, than I know that he's not being genuine and he doesn't really want me back, so then that's clear as well. I won't be his puppet anymore.

It kinda WAS imposed on you - it does not sound like it was YOUR boundary, he just chose not to contact you and you acquiesced to his timeline for contact.  You passively allowed him to cut contact and initiate, all of his feelings, not yours.  YOU did not choose the NC, it seems, you simply went along with it until he ended it.  That's not really setting a boundary about protecting YOU and giving YOU control of your side of this r/s.

Yes, very true indeed, you're right.

You say you are NC again right now.  How do you think you respond when he contacts you?

I hope I can keep up the boundaries I wrote down this last week and not fall for him immediately again. I hope I can keep my calm and not do everything he wishes, but actuallly think about what I want and what's best for me.  

As for putting others first... .

If he can't help you with your needs, and your needs stress him out, then to be able to be around him you need to address your needs BEFORE being around him.  In a healthy r/s, you SHOULD be able to talk to him about your needs, about what you want, what's bothering you.  But BPD r/s are pretty much unhealthy, or at the very least, very uneven in the abilitiy of the partners to support each other (else, we'dnot be on this site discussing it).  You have to be able to self-care as much as you can - I am not saying hide your problems, but yes, you can't share what you want carte blanc with him and not have him overload.

Yes, so very true! I'll also try to share my problems with my friends/family more instead of with him, because he just can't handle the stress it gives him. I don't want him to overload again.[

I think much like a person with a cold, you need to look at periods of NC like a healthy self-quarantine from BPD emotionally damaging behavior.  Just because he says "Jump" does not mean you have to ask "how high", and while it may feel good to see him initially, it's obviously hurting you enough to bring you here after - the cake can taste good, but then it makes you feel sick.

You are so right, everything you are saying resonates so much with me, thank you so much for all your amazing comments and for making me wake up. I really hope I can stay true to myself when he contacts me again, I really hope I'll be strong enough. We shall see.