She's communicating indifference towards me, therapist predicts consequences

[lighthouse9]

Hey everyone,

I've recently decided that it's time to move myself over from the improving board to this one, though I've certainly spent a lot of time reading up on the detaching board.

I can't say that my desire to give up hope is an emotional desire. The quickness of my separated uBPDw's impulsive decision making and recent disclosure that she's done with our marriage has left me bewildered. I'm in the category of folks (so far) that has divorce being held over my head with no action, and after her first session with a DBT therapist she learned that she's waiting for me to file and is trying to push me into making the decision so she doesn't have to do it herself. After this conversation though, and after an intense level of crazy making, I woke up Sunday morning almost determined to file myself, again, even though I still desire to reconcile.

Her latest tactic is indifference. She "never understood that a marriage was something you had to be responsible for" and "isn't the type of person that is capable of giving another person security." She's also "empty inside" and feels "nothing" about the end of our marriage, and has labeled me as just "another person in her life." As you all probably know, this latest revision of history just doesn't fit our past. She was always highly invested and involved in the marriage and prided herself in the ways that she provided security to us. But, as she comes to terms with the idea that she's probably a person with BPD, she seems to have gone all in on letting the traits define her. This is the latest version of her being a victim, and my friend pointed out to me that the indifference is a subtle tactic to keep me hooked. Let me explain... .

I'm an extremely passionate person, maybe even too passionate at times. Indifference doesn't make a lot of sense to me and sometimes even gets under my skin (though, I know that there are areas of my life that I am indifferent or could use to cultivate some indifference). My friend pointed out that her recent crazy making antics had me annoyed and less hooked, and she probably figured that out and figured out that acting out in those ways was just going to unhook me so I would move on. The indifference though, it's so outside of how she operates in the world and such a thing that gets under my skin, that she figured showing indifference would really get me to feel bad for her and see just how out of control and messed up she is. To see her move to a place of unfeeling towards our relationship and call me just a person in her life wouldn't get me to detach, no matter how hurtful that phrase feels. Instead, it would get me to look at her and say "oh my, you must really not be ok, here, let me stick around longer and help you remember that indifference isn't your thing." Classic I hate you don't leave me.

So now, I'm conflicted and barely just tolerating it. My therapist (also DBT and in the same clinic that she goes to) and I had an emergency session yesterday morning to process these recent events and she gave me some grim stuff to work with right now. Basically, she said that I can expect that no matter what I do at this point, there will be consequences. If I decide to go and file myself, I can almost expect a level of dysregulation that could lead to a suicide attempt or hospitalization. If I don't file, I can expect to be painted black as a controlling person who won't "give her what she wants" (this is her line about the divorce). No matter what though, the story she's telling herself is unlikely to change anytime soon, and she also insightfully pointed out that in all of her years of practice she hasn't really seen someone "go back" on the revisionist history they made up and undo that narrative with the people in their life they told it to in order to support their case. She said I get to decide whether I can live with that or not (again, conflicted here), but that there's no amount of rationalizing that's going to bring her to her senses and rewrite history again.

The worst part for me in all of this is that she leaves in two weeks for a 6 week training course for her job, which means she'll be out of DBT for 6 weeks after only a few sessions. Also, if I decide to leave our home (she's already moved out) during that time, which she expects me to do, I'm likely no longer going to find a local apartment and am left only with the option to move home to my family in another state. I had crossed this option off the list, but her recent crazy making has pushed me to reconsider moving somewhere that I'll have a bit more support and less financial obligations. What woke me up several times last night though is the possibility that moving home before she returns from her training may very well mean that I never see her again. I'm already messed up by her indifference, true or not true. I know she's capable of just cutting people out and not looking back. I have no idea how I'm going to deal with that - it's already been a quick enough turn around from being what I thought was happily married to now being in this position.

So, here I am. Conflicted. Somewhat tolerating it. Grateful for the support in my life and my ability to feel the pain. But really concerned and scared, especially after my therapist reasonably validated that there are no easy steps from here and that all roads have big consequences.

[Panda39]

Her latest tactic is indifference. She "never understood that a marriage was something you had to be responsible for" and "isn't the type of person that is capable of giving another person security." She's also "empty inside" and feels "nothing" about the end of our marriage, and has labeled me as just "another person in her life." As you all probably know, this latest revision of history just doesn't fit our past. She was always highly invested and involved in the marriage and prided herself in the ways that she provided security to us. But, as she comes to terms with the idea that she's probably a person with BPD, she seems to have gone all in on letting the traits define her. This is the latest version of her being a victim, and my friend pointed out to me that the indifference is a subtle tactic to keep me hooked. Let me explain... .

I'm an extremely passionate person, maybe even too passionate at times. Indifference doesn't make a lot of sense to me and sometimes even gets under my skin (though, I know that there are areas of my life that I am indifferent or could use to cultivate some indifference)... .

What I see is her "indifference" is pushing your buttons. What is her "indifference" really doing?  Is it distancing you? What I see is that her "indifference" is in fact keeping you engaged with her.  Do her words match her actions?

Panda39

[lighthouse9]

Hi Panda39,

I agree - and that's what my friend was suggesting, that the indifference was definitely a way to push my buttons. I think her indifference is really serving to keep me hooked, and agree with you there, too. I think I'm still struggling in these moments to SET - and get a little too hung up on trying to explain to her that it's not true. She didn't say this stuff to me until long after I had finally started crying in the conversation, now that I look back on it. She wasn't indifferent up until that point. So, I think her indifference is also serving to remove her from feeling any emotion when she has to see my emotion. Previously, I was trying not to show emotion around her because she kept saying she's having a hard time not mirroring it and sticking around because it's what I want and not what she wants. But then I called BS on that and after talking with my therapist about it decided that I could just simply tell her I was having my own experience and not try to take responsibility for upsetting her by being sad, which a reasonable person would be when their marriage might be ending.

Do her words match her actions? Hard to say. There isn't much action right now. An indifferent person wouldn't come over and talk for 3 hours. She's definitely practicing avoidance big time, but that's very different than indifference.
 
Any advice on keeping yourself from taking things personally when they find the exact button to push?

[BeagleGirl]

So, here I am. Conflicted. Somewhat tolerating it. Grateful for the support in my life and my ability to feel the pain. But really concerned and scared, especially after my therapist reasonably validated that there are no easy steps from here and that all roads have big consequences.

The realization that there are no easy roads can be paralyzingly painful, but if you push through that it can become very freeing.  

It sounds like you want to do everything that you can to keep the relationship intact and improve it.  Understanding from the start that it won't be easy gives you a higher likelihood of actually achieving your goal because you've counted the costs and know what it's worth to you.  You can spend the time she is away building up the resources and tools you will need to fight the good fight.  It sounds like you've already got three of the most important ones in your corner - a good therapist, a support system of friends and family, and this board full of tools and people who have walked further along the hard road you will choose and want to lend you a hand over the rough patches.

We all acknowledge that a relationship takes two.  There is the possibility that you will do everything right and she will choose to leave the relationship or make it untenable for you to remain in the relationship.  That doesn't mean that you have to give up and get out before you have reached the point where you can say you have done all you are willing to do.

The approach my therapist helped me to take was to determine what kind of marriage I wanted to be in and invite my dBPDstbxh to join me in that marriage.  I had to change my patterns to align with the marriage I wanted to be in.  dBPDstbxh had the option to do so as well.  Ultimately, he decided he didn't want to be in the marriage as I was defining it.  I will leave the door to that marriage open until the day the ink is dry on the divorce papers.  I doubt that he will choose to come in, and the entryway into that marriage has gotten a LOT longer as trust has been broken, but I know that I won't get dragged out of this "marriage house" and back into the house of horrors I lived in before.

The hardest thing to recognize and own is that cliche saying "The only person you have any control of is yourself."  It's true.  You can't control her behavior or expectations, but you can control yours.  Once you start to live in that truth, you may find that your energy levels pick up because you are focusing them on something you can achieve rather than the black hole of trying to control/change someone else.

All of this has been said in the assumption that your choice will be to work towards a better marriage.  Most of it still applies if your choice is the opposite.  Regardless of your choice, we'll be rooting for you and happy to lend a helping hand.  

Some questions you may want to start asking yourself:

What does the marriage I want to live in look like?
What changes do I need to make to "remodel" this marriage?
How do I invite my wife to join me in this remodeled marriage?
What are the actions my wife can take to show me that she wants to be in this marriage with me?
What actions could my wife take that would result in temporary eviction (separation)?
What actions could my wife take that would result in me removing her from my marriage house and locking the door (divorce)?

BeagleGirl

[lighthouse9]

Hey BeagleGirl,

Thank you for the very helpful perspective!

I like how you said that this can become freeing. I agree. There is a sense of freedom in knowing that right now I am making my own choices, even if my set of choices have become very limited based on things she has done lately. Recognizing what choices I do have has helped me pull back from the paralysis and codependency and try on different choices to see which sit with my values the best. Because this is the first I'm dealing with a longer term version of dysregulation from her, it's been quite shocking and it is very easy to look at some of her choices as permanent (like impulsively signing a year lease elsewhere, abandoning our home and moving out). These choices may be permanent, but given that I'm yet to see divorce papers I am reminding myself that there may be more behind her indecision and avoidance than her current victim narrative that I "won't let her file for divorce."

In conversations with friends, it seems like her real need right now is for control. No matter what I do, there's a narrative that she's constructed that gives her control - and somewhat ironically, the "control" is that she's a victim. A line from the book on how to stop caretaking the BP/NP stands out for me. I don't remember the direct quote, but it talks about how the BP will vacillate between victim and persecutor with a kind of intractable stubbornness, especially if the caretaker refuses to play rescuer or enter the drama triangle. This is how she's trying to maintain control over the situation. She can't stay persecutor for very long, so victim fits much better. But, when I offer support without offering my full self in a codependent way (aka inviting her into the kind of relationship I want, like you were saying) she runs away again and becomes mean.

Yesterday, for example, she broke my no texting at work boundary and after several "ok, I'm sorry, I'm done now" I kindly pointed out that she seemed to want to be in contact today and that I was ok with that, just not during work hours, so I could be available later if she needed something. Her response? "No, I just have wifi today and am taking care of stuff and had to tell you about it. I'm fine." I said great, glad to hear you're taking care of some stuff, have a great day.

Again, this is not an indifferent person - one who texts me at work to tell me how down she is and how hard her weekend was because she was thinking about everything. I validated her feelings and expressed empathy, but then reminded her of the boundary but gave her an opportunity for contact later when it was better for me. Then the story changes to how she didn't really need anything from me and I'm essentially silly for thinking this had to do with anything more than her having internet access to handle some logistical things. I validated her ability to handle logistics and said great, have a good one! The need for both control and attention there are so obvious.

Can I ask BeagleGirl, if you'd be willing to share a bit about what the marriage you would like to be in would look like? I've been working on this, too, with both a life coach and my DBT therapist. Do you ever feel like he would be incapable of the things you come up with? How much time have you been willing to give him?

By "remodeling," I've really been working on remodeling myself: figuring out my values, living them, etc. I'm not sure I'd be getting through this right now if I weren't doing this work. It's ironic, too, because most of these things are things she's asked of me in the past, but I was too sucked into her to figure out how to do them. Now that I'm doing them (and started doing them before she left), she's got the narrative of "this is you without me, so much better off." I just laugh a little when she says that and say ok, you can tell yourself that but I haven't decided that I'm better off without you. Quite the opposite. I'm working on being the best version of myself, so I can be better for all the relationships in my life, including my marriage.

[Cat Familiar]

lighthouse9,
It sounds like you're in a very good place emotionally to deal with your current circumstances, as challenging as they are. You sound like you've got great support too. And your response to her text shows how well you can uphold your boundaries and see the motivation behind her communication. 

So many here are dealing with partners who say they want divorce, but who are unwilling to initiate the process themselves. Whether it's just BPD "laziness" or whether it's some version of manipulation and victimhood, who knows? But you are clear on what you feel and are not being manipulated by her lack of action. 

At this point, it's a waiting game. Who she will be when she returns from her training course is up in the air. So the decisions you make concerning where you live should take your best needs into consideration. I'm assuming that keeping your current residence is financially untenable without her paycheck? In the meantime, is it possible for you to move in with a friend in your local area, until she returns?

[lighthouse9]

Hi Cat Familiar,

Thank you for the affirmation about my emotional state right now - it has not been easy!

Waiting games are not my favorite, but I really see no alternative besides filing myself and going completely no contact, which is just not where I'm at (right now).

I have no idea who she will be when she returns from her training course and definitely expect some conflict. Right now, I have no idea how she's going to pull of even going to this course, she's been dissociating so much and making such bad decisions. I'm truly hopeful that she can either pull it together or that someone else spots the state she's in and can help her find more support before leaving. I hate to say it, but who she comes back as depends so much on who is at the course. I noticed this recently. In the last place where we lived for her job, she was a pretty upstanding woman and had great family values for the most part - just like her coworkers. At this location, she wants to party and feels entitled to do whatever she wants - just like her coworkers. At this training, there will be a mix of people, since they are coming from all over for the training, but there will be enough family-values folks and party hard cheat on your spouse folks - it will be interesting to see who she falls in with for the time she's gone. I think I have a feeling who she will fall in with... .

By the "laws" of her employer, she's supposed to keep me in the residence and continue to pay for me out of her housing stipend as long as we are legally married, and if I wanted to "squat" per se, I'm legally entitled to do so. However, I'm sure you can understand what kind of trouble that would cause. Further, her recent decision to move out without really consulting with me means that she can barely afford both rents. There is some middle ground where I pay her for half the rent of our home, which I could afford to do. That is my tentative plan, if I don't find something better sooner. But, it is just one more way that we are connected to each other and as long as I'm in the home she has reason to feel burdened by me in some weird way, despite her legal obligation. I can't tell if me moving out will either 1. trigger abandonment (like I've given up on our shared life) or 2. trigger relief (since I'm no longer her financial responsibility). It's a tough spot to be in. I'm trying to just wait out the next two weeks before deciding next steps, no action might be the best action while I strap in for the predictable dysregulation that is coming before she leaves.

[BeagleGirl]

Can I ask BeagleGirl, if you'd be willing to share a bit about what the marriage you would like to be in would look like? I've been working on this, too, with both a life coach and my DBT therapist. Do you ever feel like he would be incapable of the things you come up with? How much time have you been willing to give him?

I'm willing to share and hope that trying to put it into words for you will help coalesce some of the thoughts that have been bouncing around in my head.

I'll start with your last question.  In some ways I would say that I've given him over 20 years.  We've been married for 22.5 yrs and all through our marriage I have asked, nagged, begged, pleaded for him to help me build the marriage I felt we should have.  But I would say that I wasn't willing to evict him from the marriage until much more recently.  I started asking for a therapeutic separation in May of 2016.  I moved out of our bedroom in October of 2016.  I started our physical separation (separate residences) on Jan. 28th, 2017.  I started proceedings for legal separation in June of 2017.  Our legal separation was finalized Feb. 7th, 2018.  We are in agreement that I will petition for divorce in May of this year.  

Each of these steps was both a step away from the marriage we've had and an invitation to a new marriage.  If he hadn't come to me saying that he had done all he could to save the marriage and was ready for divorce, I am not sure how much longer I would have given it.  If he came back to me today and said he wanted to give it another try, I'm pretty sure I would not move forward with divorce, but I also wouldn't be inviting him to move back in without a lot of evidence that we're in agreement on what our marriage should look like.

So that brings me to the harder questions... .What would that marriage look like and is he capable of being part of that marriage?  Again, I'll start with the second.  I do believe that he is capable of what I would ask.  I don't discount that it would take lots of work on his part, nor would I expect perfection.  What I would expect is a willingness to consistently put forth the effort, acknowledge the failures, figure out how to do better, and keep trying.  Basically, the same things that I expect of myself.

Some of the things I'm looking for in marriage:
-A partner who is capable of living a "grown up" life, with all the responsibilities that entails.  I want to know that he isn't dependent on me to make his life work and is just as willing to/capable of picking up some of the slack when I'm overwhelmed as he able to accept the same from me when he's overwhelmed.  I know it's cliche, but I know I'm not looking for a 50%/50% relationship.  I'm looking for a 100%/100% relationship.  
-A friend who knows the best and worst of me and accepts the whole package while encouraging me as I strive to learn and grow, because they know I do the same for them.  I want to have the kind of friendship with my marriage partner that I have with my closest friends where we can tell each other the truth, in love.  I love the verse "Faithful are the wounds of a friend", because I know the kind of love it takes to hold a mirror up to the ugliness in a friend's life and stand by them as they work through it.  
-A playmate to laugh and have fun with.  
-A person with talents and skills I admire, who challenges me to get out of my comfort zone and join them on a new adventure.
-A faithful companion who knows the power of silent presence whether sharing a moment of indescribable beauty or pain.  
-A fellow student of life who loves to learn, share that learning, and approaches the world in a new way because of what they've learned.
-A lover who is an awesome lover because they are all the things above, not because of any special sexual prowess.  I want someone who isn't focused on how to please "a woman", but on how to please me.  I want someone who delights in and is aroused by all of the aspects of who I am, not just my generous curves (a bit more generous than I'd like at the moment, but that wouldn't bother them) or a sexy outfit.  I also want a lover who is not blind to the attractiveness of other women, but who chooses to only have eyes for me.  I'm a believer in first glance at an attractive person of the opposite sex is understandable but lingering stare or repeated glances are unnecessary, and I'd like to find someone who holds that same belief.
-Someone who doesn't expect or need me to be all things to or for him and has the faith/friends/family to fill the gaps when I fall short.

As I read through my list above, I can honestly say that these are all things that I am not only asking for, but am also offering to give.  I'm nowhere near perfect, but I have a lot to offer.  I wish it was what my husband was looking for, but the message I hear from his actions is that he wants to have that person but does not want to BE that person.  

So what about you?  I'd love to hear how you would answer your own questions.

BG

[Cat Familiar]

Some of the things I'm looking for in marriage:
-A partner who is capable of living a "grown up" life, with all the responsibilities that entails.  I want to know that he isn't dependent on me to make his life work and is just as willing to/capable of picking up some of the slack when I'm overwhelmed as he able to accept the same from me when he's overwhelmed.  I know it's cliche, but I know I'm not looking for a 50%/50% relationship.  I'm looking for a 100%/100% relationship.  
-A friend who knows the best and worst of me and accepts the whole package while encouraging me as I strive to learn and grow, because they know I do the same for them.  I want to have the kind of friendship with my marriage partner that I have with my closest friends where we can tell each other the truth, in love.  I love the verse "Faithful are the wounds of a friend", because I know the kind of love it takes to hold a mirror up to the ugliness in a friend's life and stand by them as they work through it.  
-A playmate to laugh and have fun with.  
-A person with talents and skills I admire, who challenges me to get out of my comfort zone and join them on a new adventure.
-A faithful companion who knows the power of silent presence whether sharing a moment of indescribable beauty or pain.  
-A fellow student of life who loves to learn, share that learning, and approaches the world in a new way because of what they've learned.
-A lover who is an awesome lover because they are all the things above, not because of any special sexual prowess.  I want someone who isn't focused on how to please "a woman", but on how to please me.  I want someone who delights in and is aroused by all of the aspects of who I am, not just my generous curves (a bit more generous than I'd like at the moment, but that wouldn't bother them) or a sexy outfit.  I also want a lover who is not blind to the attractiveness of other women, but who chooses to only have eyes for me.  I'm a believer in first glance at an attractive person of the opposite sex is understandable but lingering stare or repeated glances are unnecessary, and I'd like to find someone who holds that same belief.
-Someone who doesn't expect or need me to be all things to or for him and has the faith/friends/family to fill the gaps when I fall short.

That's beautiful, BeagleGirl.

My skeptical analytical mind asks whether this total package is possible for a pwBPD to do on a consistent basis. Sure seems possible in the honeymoon phase.

[Cat Familiar]

lighthouse9,
I truly understand how she could be influenced by the people she's with. PwBPD often don't have a strong identity.

Regarding your living situation, she's made the move. Therefore the consequences are hers to accept.

[lighthouse9]

BeagleGirl,

I love this list! I've done some drafting for myself, but I echo Cat's statement: I'm skeptical that my wife could meet me even halfway with my list right now. In the beginning, yes, she met my every need and then some and it felt like we were flourishing. Typical idealization. I had no idea how bad it got, because she mostly kept things hidden, but we've had two instances now where I've been able to glimpse some of the ways she's painted me black and wowwww can she spew some vitriol! Only recently did that vitriol really come to the surface verbally (she's more the quiet BPD), but I was amazed to learn how she was able to split me black and yet still carry on some sense of normalcy in the relationship, until it all came crashing down recently with the affair.

Thus, I think I'm less focused on what our marriage looks like long term and what I would need to see from her in the short term and what kind of relationship we would need to be in, even if separated. The day she started this affair with a coworker was also the same day she was telling colleagues about our plan to have children and the doctor we had just met a few weeks prior. I was under the impression that we were about to start our family planning - and she was getting drunk and running around with a guy from work that we both know to be trouble.

Therefore, baby steps. "What do I want from a partner in crisis" might be a better question for me to answer at the moment, because honestly I'm not sure I can evaluate the marriage at this moment!

Right now, I want a partner who can admit she needs professional support and will follow through on that support.

I want a partner who can trust that there is value in our relationship, even when things feel hard.

I want a partner who is willing to explore that value, especially when things feel hard, and not just look for an easy out (avoidance, blame, lies, dissociation, etc).

I want a partner who can tell me her fears and trust me when I say that I'm not leaving, I don't hate her, and that I forgive her.

I want a partner who will lean on "friends of the marriage" and break ties with those who want to sabotage us.

I want a partner who can be honest about her outside attractions and is willing to strategize with me and friends of the marriage how she will use "skills" rather than emotions to not let those attractions turn into affairs.

I want a partner who can admit that they have a problem with alcohol when in crisis and can make the decision to abstain.

I had a moment after I confronted her about the affair that she was this woman, or was pretty close to being this woman. But then she moved out and has been an absolute mess any time we interact since then. It makes me suspicious that the affair is still happening, and my therapist gave me reason last night to suspect that she was lying about starting DBT at the same clinic that I go to. Basically, she's still avoiding, lying, and reports not being able to remember anything and is dissociating a ton.

I haven't confronted her about the affair again or the potential that she's lying about DBT, but I'm thinking carefully about what that confrontation might look like and what I'd like to accomplish with it.

I agree Car Familiar - she made the move and the consequences are hers to accept. I get that rationally - but I feel guilty as hell making her pay for me to live there, even if it is her responsibility. This feels like an opportunity to put my foot down and have her face consequences, but I know it will also come with consequences, like her raging and spewing even more lies about me to her family and friends. I hate hate hate looking like a dependent person and hate not paying my own way, so this is definitely a trigger of mine. But, I have enough people reminding me that in less than two months she completely ripped the rug out from under me and has compromised my security, my job, my housing, etc. Everyone in my life is on team make her pay. I'm torn. I guess the next convo will see how that goes!

[formflier]

lighthouse9,

Perhaps let's flip this around.  Why would you NOT want the normal and regular rules to be followed?  I did see something about " consequences" of "making" her pay.


I would suggest you examine your fears around that aspect and then compare them to a "truth". 

FF "truth": natural and logical consequences exist in life for a reason.  Sure there are times when those aren't followed, but those times should be rare and there should be extreme clarity about the benefits/reasons of "getting off the well worn path".

Considering all of this... .what do you think is the best course of action for you?

FF

[lighthouse9]

Hmm... .good questions formflier... .

I might ask you to expand a bit though.

Natural and logical consequences do exist for a reason, I agree. And, I can see ways in the relationship that I stepped in to stop those consequences from happening, but mainly because they weren't big deals and they were the kinds of things that would affect me, too, if I let them happen. I can understand now that this conditioned her to not take care of things, and can absolutely see how everyone's always done that for her, even though she is a doctoral level medical professional and is clearly capable of getting things done.

Is this one of those times that the rules aren't followed? Hard to tell. I can see an argument for paying her some money, because her fear of poverty (no matter how off base) is a HUGE trigger and 1. I can afford to pay some money and 2. she's going to be a bigger problem for me and everyone else if I don't meet her halfway per se.

I've read a lot about how you have to be almost strict with folks with BPD, like putting them in a container like you would for a child, enforcing strict boundaries and such. IF I desire reconciliation still, would this backfire? Or, would it be exactly what she needs? Is some compromise the better angle, especially if it doesn't really put me out (aka I'd have to pay rent anywhere right now). The few times I've called her out she's responded well at first - but then goes back to her friends and family and continues to spin lies that validate how she's the victim and I'm wrong.

Can you help me see more of where you're coming from? I'm all ears and totally open to breaking any of my own distorted thinking here. Thanks!

[formflier]

.
Natural and logical consequences do exist for a reason, I agree. And, I can see ways in the relationship that I stepped in to stop those consequences from happening, but mainly because they weren't big deals and they were the kinds of things that would affect me, too, if I let them happen. I can understand now that this conditioned her to not take care of things, and can absolutely see how everyone's always done that for her, even though she is a doctoral level medical professional and is clearly capable of getting things done.

Ummm... .read this... .to yourself... .OUTLOUD.  Reflect on it.

If you want a different outcome... .you should?

a)  double down on what you have been doing
b)  do something different, even it it feels... really... .really uncomfortable.  (I wonder where you could go... .perhaps somewhere online... hmmm... .to find "something different"?)

 I can see an argument for paying her some money, because her fear of poverty (no matter how off base) is a HUGE trigger  

Do you understand the concept of "don't validate the invalid"?  I think it applies here.  

Also, there is a pattern here that you need to STOP being part of.  "She" has a fear and she goes "outside" of herself and her control to fix that fear.

So... FF comes to you and says... .I'm scared of being abducted... .I have a mustache that drives women wild... .100s of them desire me... .beg for me and all of that (which is great by the way), yet... .this one woman in a red car saw me running... was overcome by my musculartude and abducted me.  I can't even type about the unspeakable things she did to me... .all while stroking my mustache.

Lighthouse... .you drive a red car.  I know you have been driving a red car to intimidate me and show me you don't love me anymore.  I'm tired of it... I will divorce you, tell your friends you eat toe jamb and fart in your general direction unless you sell your red car now.

After all, if you sell your red car, which you know I am afraid of... it will prove your love for me... .perhaps we'll have a future... .

(FF is having a moment here... .I mean... .that's pretty good isn't it?)    

IF I desire reconciliation still, would this backfire?

As long as you sell the red car... .I will take you back and I promise... all the other crazy stuff that I haven't ever done... I won't ever do again... .you can trust me this time...

Or, would it be exactly what she needs?

Wouldn't reality be better for everyone... .and we all... .each deal with it in our own way, the best we can.

Is some compromise the better angle, especially if it doesn't really put me out (aka I'd have to pay rent anywhere right now).

Compromise is definitely better.  Let's see... .you'll be much better off with only half of FF's crazy... I mean... compromise... right?  And you can afford the loss on the red car... so... why not.  Prove you love me...

The few times I've called her out she's responded well at first - but then goes back to her friends and family and continues to spin lies that validate how she's the victim and I'm wrong.

Calling her out... .uggg... .(ff breaks character).  Can you give some word for word on how you did this.  Preview:  Your life will be better if you STOP calling her out.

Oh yes... .next week we will learn about the drama triangle.  This week (ff back in character)... sell the red car and prove your love for me.

And... .hurry up with that shrubbery your promised me...

Can you help me see more of where you're coming from? I'm all ears and totally open to breaking any of my own distorted thinking here. Thanks!

As long as you sell your red car... .I promise I will tell you you are thinking correctly.  Because, our purpose is life is to solve the fears of others... .right?  Especially if you care about them... .

FF

[lighthouse9]

FF Well... .that was... .unique.

Point taken though.

She's backed me into a corner and is basically screaming at me for being in the corner, because me in the corner is bad for her.

I can either stay in the corner and let her figure out how her actions created this situation... .

Or get the hell out immediately and not look back. I'm not ready for that yet, but I can see how not taking responsibility for being in the corner is a good thing.

I don't like being in this corner either and may have to find another solution for myself between getting out and not looking back or staying. So far though, none of those middle ground solutions have made much sense to me, so I'm making as much peace with this corner as I can. To be fair, my corner is a 3 bedroom house surrounded by neighbors I enjoy. I miss her and I miss our life before she jumped off the deep end, but I know that there's no version of her coming back to it without long, intensive DBT that she commits to on her own.

F this corner and F BPD.

[formflier]

FF Well... .that was... .unique.
 

That's what they all say... .all those hundreds of women.  Word gets around. 

So... .we are just getting to know each other, the running joke around here is about me and my harem that my wife used to think I had (paranoia).  Once I stopped invalidating her... .paranoia mostly faded away.

Listen, I still don't get specifics of your story and I'll say that's actually good.  pwBPD and nons that still have their heads in a blender ( a BPD specialty... scrambled brain) can get really wrapped up in the details and loose sight of the big picture.

If YOU want to be in a corner... .stay there... super glue yourself there.  If you want to walk around and not be in a corner... .then do that.  (oh my... .wait... what about the person with BPD?)

The reason I didn't mention them is they don't get a vote... .they aren't you.  Oh... I'm well aware they claim a vote... they will threaten to try and scare you into a vote.  If you are lucky they may want to recycle and screw your brains out to get a vote.

At the end of the day, never forget... .they don't decide for you.  You do.  1 detail or 1000 don't change that.

Now... .it's not your job to convince them of this.  It's your job to convince yourself of this... and to do this... and let the pwBPD work through their feelings (no help from you)

Sure you can express confidence they will be ok, you can validate (if you learn how... it can be tricky)... you can invite them along to go do whatever you want to do, but guess what... you don't get a vote in what they do.

BOUNDARIES!

Boundaries are my number 1 tool in calming my relationship.  Yes all the other things are important, but no nearly as important is understanding your boundaries and enforcing them (in a healthy way)

Thoughts?

FF

[lighthouse9]

Hahaha you had a harem? good for you. I jokingly had a harem with a few friends that liked to call themselves my harem, which couldn't have been further from the truth. I hooked one of them up with a good friend of mine and they are happily married. The other was just a hilarious friend. Very far from harem, but the joke still stood up and was hilarious until I met my wife and gave up my harem. Sorry, but that just made me giggle to remember the harem days.

Yes - I agree, the details aren't really that important. They are on here, on the improving board, but the big picture is what counts. I like what you said about how I get a vote for me and I don't get a vote for her, and vice versa. Boundaries, for sure.

I consulted with a lawyer when this first happened about a month and a half ago and I have everything I need tied up so she can't bring me down legally or financially. We've split up finances and there's nothing left in both of our names. Now, it's just the emotional connection that's left (somewhat), but that window is starting to close, too.

Oh, and for the record, there will be no screwing my brains out for a vote. She'll need to get STD testing done first. That is a definite boundary. I have no interest in sleeping with her affair partner and therefore won't do it by proxy either. I already got mine done and haven't heard back, which typically means no news is good news. She wasn't thrilled that I went and got testing done where she works, but alas, that's where I have to go per our health insurance and the stipulations of her career, so not my problem. Her coworkers, my doctors. And, the tech who did my testing happened to be one of my students, which "made her want to throw up" when I told her that. Yeah, well, shouldn't have had an affair with someone you work with in the small community we live in.

She's deep in her shame cave right now and last I checked didn't want to come out, no matter how much I validated (the valid). Can't do much for her when she's in there.

What kind of boundaries have helped you calm things?