Building an action plan, need guidance

[Speck]

ROE,

It's good to hear an update from you.  It seems like you're still sifting through your options. Man, my thoughts are with you as you tackle this most stressful and anxiety-producing time. I know there's lots to think about, but if you can turn your brain off at night and get some quality rest, that will at least keep you running during the day.

Still rooting for you. Write when you can.


-Speck

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you, Speck. I had a very productive talk with my T this afternoon. He didn't have much to say about the legal logistics but he was interested in how my biggest fear in all this is becoming "the bad guy" and the possibility of having to face my wife crying and begging not to do this. I suffer from being too soft-hearted, but being soft-hearted to her now equals being cruel to myself and my kids.

My T raised the interesting point that animals have claws and teeth that come out when they need to protect themselves. So I'm trying to get myself more into the mindset of protecting rather than attacking. This after all is my best way of helping my wife if she can at some time accept it.

My wife is going out with friends tonight and I know she intends to get stinking drunk. I will enjoy a night without her and I have already PMed the friend to make sure she gets home safe. A little rest from all this would be a gift. 

~ROE

[formflier]

  I will enjoy a night without her and I have already PMed the friend to make sure she gets home safe. 

Likely this is a smart move... .BPD or not.  I'd be interested in how often you do this kinda thing in other parts of your life.

Did your wife ask you to "protect" her or "solve" her getting home safely issue?  Did you ask her if she thought that would be helpful or needed?


Big picture:  There is a BPDish aspect to all of this and there is also a relationship with alcohol mixed in. 

If you had to pick one area for your wife to improve on, would you pick BPD or alcohol?

FF

[pearlsw]

Hi ROE,

There's a lot here. Just a quick note to say: you and the kids first. First. Whatever is best for the three of you is best and should guide your planning in my opinion.

What did you do while she was cutting the clothes? I'm not sure what country you are in and I know that matters, believe me I know, but when my husband was doing some extreme stuff weeks back I went ahead and called the cops to stop him. He stopped. He did the same behavior but more quietly the next time, I confronted him again... .but I managed to get him to stop this behavior as it actually has consequences for him as well. We'll see... .

What I'm getting at is she has no right to destroy your clothes. At that point she is out of her mind and someone needs to come in and intervene. Do you have an idea for what do for these kinds of scenarios?

many big hugs to you!     

~pearl.

[I Am Redeemed]

ROE,

Your T makes a good point. I encourage you to keep in the mindset of "protecting"- but remember that you ultimately only have the power to protect yourself and your children. Your wife may have to experience uncomfortable and unpleasant circumstances as the result of her own behavior.

I had a very productive talk with my T this afternoon. He didn't have much to say about the legal logistics but he was interested in how my biggest fear in all this is becoming "the bad guy" and the possibility of having to face my wife crying and begging not to do this. I suffer from being too soft-hearted, but being soft-hearted to her now equals being cruel to myself and my kids.

My T raised the interesting point that animals have claws and teeth that come out when they need to protect themselves. So I'm trying to get myself more into the mindset of protecting rather than attacking. This after all is my best way of helping my wife if she can at some time accept it.

I know you love your wife. I know you want to help her, and you want her to love you for helping her. That may happen. It also may not happen. Either way, I encourage you to be steadfast in your resolve to protect yourself and your kids. The issues your wife has regarding mental health are not your fault, and they are not your responsibility. She is an adult. You can only do so much, then it will be up to her. You are still focusing more on what the outcome will be for your wife than you are for you and the kids. Shift that, with the "claws and teeth" coming out in mind, to what will be the outcome for you and your precious babies when you finally begin to live a life that is free from abuse. Whether your w gets help or not is ultimately her choice. Living a life free from abuse is your choice. Your kids are not able to choose because they are too young. You must do that for them. Put those "claws" out for those babies. Show your "teeth" to the abuse that is damaging them. It may help you to not be so afraid if you can get yourself a little fired up. It did for me. I'm not saying "fired up" by making your wife or anyone else the "enemy", just the abuse itself, as you mentioned elsewhere.

You are doing great ROE. SO, So proud of you!

Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

[Lucky Jim]

I know you love your wife. I know you want to help her, and you want her to love you for helping her. That may happen. It also may not happen. Either way, I encourage you to be steadfast in your resolve to protect yourself and your kids. The issues your wife has regarding mental health are not your fault, and they are not your responsibility. She is an adult. You can only do so much, then it will be up to her.

redeemed: Agree!  Nicely put.  I once found myself in a similar situation w/my BPDxW.  It took me a long time to grasp that helping isn't necessarily healthy for the helper or the one being helped.  It provides a cover for the helper to ignore or deny his/her own issues.  Plus, it provides an unhealthy dynamic for the one helped, because it foster dependency rather than autonomy.

I suffer from being too soft-hearted, but being soft-hearted to her now equals being cruel to myself and my kids.

ROE: Great point!  I suspect that we Nons tend to be too nice and often suffer from naivete.  I know I did.  You could say we lack "native brutality" that one finds in nature.  For example, the mother eagle pushes the eaglets out of the nest; the tiger chases its cubs away.  Of course we're not eagles or tigers, but maybe we can borrow a little of their strength in our BPD relationships.

LuckyJim

LuckyJim

[formflier]

 Your wife may have to experience uncomfortable and unpleasant circumstances as the result of her own behavior.
 

IAR makes a good point here.  One I think worthy of further examination.

Most adults to their best learning and maturing (applies to children as well) by experiencing the natural and logical consequences of their behavior (whether their behavior be good or bad).

So... .as adults (and the nons in the r/s with a pwBPD) we need to be very careful about doing anything that prevents, hinders, hides, slows down or alters (in any way) the "normal" way life works.

If you step back and read most of the stories on BPD family, most pwBPD appear to try and manipulate people and situations so they don't experience "life" and therefore mature.

I want to assure everyone it is unlikely they are doing this as part of a well thought out plot  The critical thing to understand is this "appearance" is the result of emotional reactions to their own emotions, which for various reasons they find incredibly uncomfortable.  (again... unlikely they would be able to explain this to you... .or agree with this, should you try and explain it)

So... let's keep this between us nons.

Impact on us nons:  We need to be deliberate about staying inside out boundaries and experiencing our life and do our maturing... .and let them stay inside their lives and do their maturing.

So... .ROE... .how can you see these "big picture truths" applying to your situation?

FF

[RolandOfEld]

Sorry to all for the lag; it was a national holiday here yesterday.

If you had to pick one area for your wife to improve on, would you pick BPD or alcohol?

FF I would pick BPD since I think the alcohol abuse is mainly just an extension of that. Also at least when she drinks she's usually in a good mood, as horrible as that sounds.

I am trying to keep an eye on the big picture and not fear on the backlash of me asking for a separation will be. This is absolutely a good thing and an opportunity for her if she can see it that way. I've been hurting her and my kids more than helping with my co-dependency.

What I'm getting at is she has no right to destroy your clothes. Do you have an idea for what do for these kinds of scenarios?

Pearls the clothes thing was really the camel back-breaking straw for me. I haven't brought it up to her again but its an elephant in the room. Thanks for the police suggestion. I'm considering it a lot more strongly than before. If the police just come to talk to her, does she have a record?

Redeemed and Lucky Jim big thanks for the pep talk! I will definitely need to get fired up when the time arrives.

~ROE

[RolandOfEld]

Since I am still waiting to hear from the lawyer I am doing some contingency planning for situations to be prepared for when I do ask for the separation, Everyone's thoughts / experience on how to handle the below and possible situations I have not thought of would be a huge help:

- Hurt the kids, neglects the kids
- Destroys my personal belongings, clothes
- Goes in drinking binge, spending binge
- Attempts suicide or self-harm
- Harass my coworkers over phone, show up at my company
- Refuses to find apartment, move out
- Bad mouths me to family, friends, or coworkers
- Runs away with kids
- Physically attacks me 
- Steals my phone phone, breaks into my email
- Challenges me in court, tries to paint me as abuser

[BeagleGirl]

RoE,
    Here are my opinions on how to handle the situations below.  This is a good list to go over with a lawyer and your therapist as well.

- Hurt the kids, neglects the kids:  Remove children from situation where she is causing harm or neglecting, document, and report to authorities.  There's a lot of harm that can be done that does not leave a mark, so you may not have anything actionable.  In that instance you can still report but you may need to take responsibility for keeping them out of the path of harm rather than relying on authorities to do so.
- Destroys my personal belongings, clothes:  Call the authorities.  If you are around while the destruction is happening and can document (video) while waiting for the authorities to arrive without escalating the situation, that would be a bonus.
- Goes in drinking binge:  If her drinking is interfering with her ability to care for the children, see the first point.  Document for future use.  DO NOT ENABLE HER DRINKING.  You should not have alcohol in the house if you think this will be an issue.  I know it's tempting to avoid the argument/appease her, but you should not buy her alcohol again.
- Spending binge: If there is precedent for this concern, don't leave money in accounts she has access to or give her access to credit cards.  Any debt she builds up is marital debt and you will probably get stuck with having to pay it off one way or another.  This is one of the areas that a lawyer's advice would be helpful. 
- Attempts suicide or self-harm:  Call the authorities and (if available where you live) ask for a 72 hour hold for mental health.  Every threat should be taken seriously, but your reaction should be to allow others to remove her from an environment where she cannot harm herself, not try to prevent the suicide/self-harm by doing what she wants you to do.
- Harass my coworkers over phone, show up at my company:  Call the authorities if she shows up at your workplace and makes a scene.  As bad as it may be, having it be a public scene works in your favor if she is the one disturbing the peace and you are not doing anything to escalate or engage.  If she is harassing your coworkers, let them know that you have no problem with them contacting the authorities.  It's their place to do so.
- Refuses to find apartment, move out:  You may need to be the one to move out, at least temporarily.  I had to that and it wasn't great but eventually dBPDstbxh realized he couldn't afford to stay in our home and wasn't going to be awarded the home in the separation.  In the worst case scenario, you will have to live elsewhere (with your kids) until a settlement has been reached.
- Bad mouths me to family, friends, or coworkers:  I think that the best response is to not engage.  It's likely that she will do own reputation more harm in the process of badmouthing you, especially if you stay "above it all" and don't take part in a counter-attack.  If they come to you with questions/concerns, handle those that need to be handled but you may find that not many of them NEED to be handled.
- Runs away with kids:  Call the authorities.
- Physically attacks me:  Call the authorities
- Steals my phone phone, breaks into my email:  Better avoided than remedied.  Make sure that you change your passwords regularly and don't leave phone/computer unattended with her.
- Challenges me in court, tries to paint me as abuser:  Keep documentation of actual events.  Avoid situations that could be easily twisted by her but ultimately you will have to trust that truth will win out. 

    You may notice that there's a theme in my suggestions.  Don't try to handle these situations on your own.  Call the authorities.  It's not only a great way to document behavior, it allows you to disengage and not be the one trying to enforce consequences on her.  Let her face the consequences that are legally her due.  Your job is to practice "gray rock" and not be a part of the problem.
    As I said, these are my opinions and I think these questions should be addressed by someone with legal training, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to contact a domestic violence organization and get their answers as well.
BG

[formflier]

Mindset matters... .why not let her decide... hand it to her.

1.  Get all the legal stuff set up for separation, so you completely understand it all.
2.  Be consistent in boundaries AND try to be proactive about things in the relationship.
3.  Proactive means addressing the elephants in the room and basically saying if we can grow past them... .we can grow together.  Also says you can live with this behavior.
4.  Be consistent about boundary enforcement (hmmm... consistency comes up a lot... )

5.  If she improves... .wonderful.
6.  If she chooses not to improve, you take steps needed.

See how this hands it to her... .?  

Thoughts?

FF

[RolandOfEld]

Hi BG, thank you so much for your detailed suggestions which I have already integrated into my plan. Doing this part has helped to lighten my mental loading a little. I've always been on the fence about bringing in the authorities out of fear that this would blow apart any future possibility for reconciliation, but I need to keep focused on the present and the safety of my kids and myself.

FF your reply touches on a question I've been tossing around, that being what to do if she voluntarily offered to go into treatment before I insist on a separation. If she does see the need I don't want to potentially detonate it by asking her to move out, but at the same time I don't want my kids and myself to suffer one more day than we have to, since treatment is a very lengthy process and doesn't guarantee results. And she has a tendency to try things and stop if there's no real consequence. So like you say the legal results of her not changing her behavior have to remain front and center.

In my mind, reconciliation can only occur on the day she can maturely and openly discuss the issues with me and see it beyond black and white. On that day would I know she's gotten better.

FF I saw your post in another thread you mentioned some degree of improvement in your marriage. I was wondering if you are able to communicate with your wife in the way above and if so how you got there.

ROE

[Radcliff]

Wow, Roland, you've assembled a dream team on this thread!  The set of advice you've gotten here in the last few days is some of the best work I've seen on this board.  Really good work, everyone!

To your most recent point, I forced my wife to move out and start treatment at the same time.  The moving out part was important.  In my case it was required for physical safety, but just as important was it gave me peaceful thinking space and instantly created a peaceful, respectful zone for the kids.  The hard message I delivered through my actions was, "Work on your recovery, and earn your way back."  This was not punitive, it was appropriate.  Another way to say it rather than "earn your way back" is that time spent with the kids and the circumstances of that time should be determined by what's healthy and safe for the kids, and recovery often has to happen before increasing time or freedoms with the kids.  My wife's main motivation is time with the kids.

You mentioned anxiety.  When we hit the crisis point, just before the restraining order, I just about came unglued.  I completely lost the ability to focus at work, and lost my job.  I felt like I was going to drop dead from a heart attack.  It got very bad.  So, you are not alone.  Get as much support as you can, carefully make your plans, and get yourself and your kids physically safe.  For me, the closer I got to the restraining order actually being served, the more anxious I got, like a prisoner of war about to escape, because I didn't want the guards to thwart the plan and have things get even worse.  After you get safe, you'll have a roller coaster of emotions and it will still be crazy in many ways, but once we created a safe space I no longer felt like I was going to drop from a heart attack.  I very quickly knew that I'd done the right thing, even though I still felt very guilty.  With time (I'm now several months after the restraining order being served), I realize that my wife was even sicker than I thought, and I feel less guilty.

Do they have Al-Anon where you live?  My therapist saw that I was in dire straights, having a tough time functioning with the level of support she could give me once a week, so she told me to go to Al-Anon.  I was a little skeptical about the whole 12 step thing, but found a meeting very close to home with a good group of folks and have become a regular.  I figure between therapy and a couple of Al-Anon meetings a week, I can get support from people in person three times a week.  You need more in-person, face-to-face support to get through this.

About reconciliation -- I hear you.  I was in the exact same place.  There can be no reconciliation without safety.  Get everyone safe first, and if reconciliation is meant to happen, it will happen.  If you are being calm, not lashing out, and showing a reasonable degree of care, you can hold your head up high.  Almost certainly, you are hard-wired to be too lenient, so worry more about being firm and protecting yourself and your kids.

Finally, documentation -- I had to do some more documentation work this evening to provide to a custody evaluator.  I have journals and a handful of videos.  I was reflecting on the fact that my documentation has been life changing.  Yes, that important.  The documentation I have, carefully journaled, and then summarized, plus the videos, tell a pretty compelling story, and is making all the difference as therapists, lawyers, a judge, and an evaluator help us sort everything out.

Roland, you are embarking on an ordeal, a test.  You can do it.  Things will be better on the other side.  Let me close with a quote that provided me some inspiration:

"I can't go on, I'll go on."
    -- Samuel Beckett

It may not feel like it, but you are doing an amazing job.  We believe in you.

WW

[formflier]

FF your reply touches on a question I've been tossing around, that being what to do if she voluntarily offered to go into treatment before I insist on a separation. 


FF I saw your post in another thread you mentioned some degree of improvement in your marriage. I was wondering if you are able to communicate with your wife in the way above and if so how you got there.

So... .I won't deny or argue at all that your wife needs to be in therapy.   But she is not here... .so don't take this as "blaming you" or "picking on you".

Plus... .you control you... you have no control over what you wife does.  (always always always keep this in mind).

It's the questions you ask... .that lead to the answers.

I would ask you... .to ask yourself... .and be reflective about... .

"What if I (ROE) see the need to make changes in the way I approach the relationship and those changes make the relationship calmer and more stable, would I "detonate" that progress by asking her to move out?"


Next:  The thing I've had to learn with my wife is there are two big ways I communicate with her. 

1.  When she is regulated and I am "building bridges toward her"
2.  When she is dysregulated and I am "enforcing boundaries"

Those are very different mindsets... .mindset is key, vice the "exact" words that you use (because in the moment... the words will get jumbled, but properly prepared and practiced... the mindset will endure.)


So... .yes I can communicate with her in the way I have laid out.  If there are specifics... I'm happy to go into detail.

Many many many struggles with various things that seemed intractable... .some have resolved... .

FF
 

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW and all, the support you've given on this thread thus far has truly been extraordinary and has been of help to other members who told me they have been following. I'm so grateful to have this amazing community in my life.

WW your story - so well documented in your posts - has been a key reference to me and first put the idea in my head that I could do something. Thank you for giving me a picture of where things could go from here and how to prepare. They do have all Al-Anon here since I know my wife had expressed an interest in it. The advice about face to face support is fully taken to heart.

FF good perspective shift, thanks. Mindset is everything going forward.

ROE

[RolandOfEld]

A few more updates before I sign off for the weekend:

She pressed me again about taking paternity leave and I once more asserted I could not take us off stable income and we could do kindergarten or babysitter to help her have time to prepare for job interviews. This resulted in the usual dysregulated threats of destroying my things and leaving me alone with the kids. I told her I would call the police if I came home and found anything else destroyed and I will. I screenshotted all of it into my records.

Today I also did some extensive past documentation w/ screenshots of conversations + photos. I also luckily found a picture she sent me of herself cutting the clothes.

I'm scheduled to have a chat with the lawyer next week and have drafted a letter to send to my father for support after I know all the legal details / fees. Also in the process of secretly moving some money from the US to my account here to be ready. And I called a bunch of kindergartens near our house to see who has vacancies. 

I feel like I'm becoming stronger with each action, less inclined to give in. I feel like I'm growing a shell of armor. I know I'm fighting her illness, not her, and I'm willing to fight till the end.   

I'm scared to death and have no idea where things are going, but as WW quoted Samuel Beckett, "I can't go on, I'll go on."

Hope everyone has a good weekend!

~ROE

[Speck]

ROE,

It's so good to hear that you feel like you're growing stronger with each decisive step towards taking care of yourself. I know you're scared right now as well, but I imagine that the more steps you take towards your goals, the more fortified you will be.

I support your proactive stance in all this and your actions speak to a tremendous bank of courage.

Thank you for taking the time to update us on your outstanding progress. I hope your week is as smooth sailing as it can be under these circumstances.


-Speck

[formflier]

She pressed me again about taking paternity leave and I once more asserted I could not take us off stable income and we could do kindergarten or babysitter to help her have time to prepare for job interviews. This resulted in the usual dysregulated threats of destroying my things and leaving me alone with the kids. 

ROE,

Solid on standing firm... I'm glad you realize you are stronger.  Don't be shocked if she realizes it too... .and tries to get you back in line.

Consider something for a bit.

Any reason to be repetitive?

So... .if she presses you "again"... .pour all your energy into being a good listener, being present... .but only "understand" the emotion... .don't deal with any details and definitely and don't tell her anything "again".

Can you write out a brief sketch of how you think that would go.?

The "mindset" is wanting to "lean into" your partner and be there for their distress, yet solve nothing for them... .

If she backs you into a corner where you "must" answer... .

pause...

physically shrug your shoulders (it will help mindset) and  sort of muse aloud that this has been already answered.  Do not get into a yes it has not it hasn't thing.  This is more of a ROE is befuddled why you would answer something again... and pivot right back to being good listener.

Thoughts? 

FF

[mama-wolf]

Good for you on holding the line, ROE!  I hope all goes as well as can be expected over the weekend, and look forward to more updates.  I know it's scary, but it sounds like you are taking solid actions that will help keep you grounded through the storm!

mw

[I Am Redeemed]

Good for you ROE!  Your steps to prepare are giving you confidence that there is, indeed, a way out of this mess. In time you will start to see more and more that it is not as hopeless or daunting as you once thought.

As far as still having some fear and anxiety, yes, that will still be present, but "checking things off" your action plan and having strategic resources in place will help you reel that in a little- for the rest of the "fear feelings", well- as Joyce Meyer says, "Sometimes we just have to do it afraid." You are doing a great job.

Also- she actually sent you a picture of her cutting your clothes?    I am incredulous right now. That may be a blessing in disguise for you, ROE.

I'm sorry, it's not funny, but... .at the same time, it kind of is. A little bit.

It's going to get better, ROE- one day at a time. You can do this!

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Harley Quinn]

Hi ROE,

I've been reading your thread with interest and decided not to comment until now as you've had such great responses already.  However I would like to join everyone else here in congratulating you on your bravery in speaking out about this and breaking the silence.  I know how hard that is.  You're taking huge steps here and ought to be really proud of yourself for facing this head on.  Some day your children will thank you for making the decisions you are right now.  Let go of any guilt about the past.  Abuse can and does have that effect on a person.  

What I want to add right now is that the fact your wife sent you a picture of herself destroying your clothes indicates that she feels in a position of power within the r/s.  She does not expect you to alter that dynamic.  Expect push back from her when she sees that begin to change.  Safety planning is really important.  There will not always be time to wait for authorities to arrive, or even time to make a call.  Be ready and prepared for what you will do and where you will take the children at a second's notice if things start to look as though they are getting out of hand.  

I know she has been physical with the kids, and want to ask if she has ever been violent or physically threatening towards you?  One thing that I learned in my domestic abuse recovery group is that leaving an abusive r/s is a risky time all round, and that it is vital you are prepared for any eventuality.  It is of great relief to see that you are thinking things through carefully.  Have you considered consulting a domestic abuse advocate for additional support?  These individuals guide people through safety planning on a regular basis - they may think of things that you wouldn't consider - and can also direct you to other support services that you may not know of.  I was amazed at the level of support I received and was incredibly grateful for the additional services provided.  I'd encourage you to add them to your support network.

You've come so far in a relatively short space of time.  It's inspiring.  Thank you for sharing your journey with us and well done for reaching out.  That takes great strength and courage.  Please keep us informed of developments.  We're all rooting for you.

Love and light x    

[Radcliff]

What I want to add right now is that the fact your wife sent you a picture of herself destroying your clothes indicates that she feels in a position of power within the r/s.  She does not expect you to alter that dynamic.  Expect push back from her when she sees that begin to change.  Safety planning is really important.  There will not always be time to wait for authorities to arrive, or even time to make a call.  Be ready and prepared for what you will do and where you will take the children at a second's notice if things start to look as though they are getting out of hand.  

I know she has been physical with the kids, and want to ask if she has ever been violent or physically threatening towards you?  One thing that I learned in my domestic abuse recovery group is that leaving an abusive r/s is a risky time all round, and that it is vital you are prepared for any eventuality.

This is very timely and wise advice from Harley Quinn.  I experienced blistering pushback when I started to assert myself against my wife.  It was during this period that the police involvements occurred, four in all.  Luckily none were an emergency response to our house.  Have you introduced yourself at your local police station to ask them for advice yet?  That can be a good way to better understand them, and have them know you, particularly as a man since you might be falsely accused.  Are you aware of laws and police response policies where you are?  There can be policies like mandatory arrest.  Sometimes they look for wounds, sometimes they assume the biggest person is the aggressor.  While calling the police can entail some risk, *not* calling the police also entails some risk.  This is why I'm a big fan of understanding the laws and policies, and making a personal introduction at the police station.  Are they likely to speak English, or do you have the language skills to make it go smoothly?

WW

[zachira]

It might be helpful to learn out motivational interviewing and use it on her!

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all, it's been an extremely eventful weekend (perhaps the hardest of my life) with a lot to update but I think my post will cover most of your questions in the process.

On Friday my wife threatened to ruin everything I owned, to which I replied if she did I would call the police, no kidding around. I came home and didn't notice anything damaged or stolen, but my wife was certainly still quietly dysregulating. My son was running around and bumped into her and she smacked him hard on the small of the back. I snuck out later that night and tried to call child services but just got a busy signal. It might be for the best since although its the right thing to do if I start this process before I'm ready and have spoken with a lawyer it could possibly derail things.

On Saturday morning I was doing the laundry and saw my last work shirt had disappeared. I called the police and they came. I explained to them about the stolen / destroyed things but they seemed to think this was a domestic issue and didn't really understand why I called. I kinda pushed them to explain to my wife that what she did was illegal, family or not. She was very angry and rude to them but admitted she did it and said she wouldn't do it again.

As soon as they left she walked over to me and hit me on the back of the neck as hard as she could. I pulled out my phone and said I'd call the officers back and she tried to grab the phone, to no avail. For the first time I could see she was scared. She begged me not to call and said she wouldn't take my stuff but wanted a divorce on Monday. I said divorce possibly in future but all I would agree to now is separation with the kids with me. She said OK and disappeared for a few hours.

While she was gone I finally gave in and emailed my Dad about what was happening and that I might need help. He replied later that he was very sad about what was happening and that he would give me whatever financial help I needed and would try come here to help if I end up with the kids by myself. He also said he was not surprised.

My wife came back later. It was not pretty. Mocked me in front of children, threw clothes at me and tried to get the kids to join. I ducked into the kitchen and locked the door and secretly video recorded what I could, tried to get her to admit to hitting my son. Didn't get that part but got some of her voice. I haven't had a safe chance to examine what I recorded yet.

That night she took me through a dysregulated but calm circular argument, trying to get me to admit it was my fault. I explained me calling the cops was the natural consequence of her actions, and she said it was because she couldn't communicate with me and had to resort to such behavior. She also criticized me for calling the cops before confirming she had took the shirt (her biggest problem with me is that "assume things" and never change this), even though she admitted she did take it. About two mind-numbing hours of this and we finally laughed a little and agreed to get past it. Sunday she went out to see friends and sent me a message saying she was wrong to do what she did but calling the cops was too much. Hopes we can both be better people and we will have to work to get past it.

So that was a huge step and I couldn't have taken it without everyone here's help.      

Beyond the fact that I believe I have made my belongings safe and possibly stopped her from leaving me with the kids again, I have little sense of victory. Doing the above broke my heart. It is one more step to doing the hardest thing. But I'm not ready yet. The stress of it is shaking me apart. I'm still waiting to hear back from the lawyer. I'm ok if they're taking their time.  I need a few days to recover.

*A note on the abuse and an answer to HQ's question. She has hit me for many years. It's not that often and there hadn't been an incident since late last year before last weekend. I thought it might be over before yesterday.  

Something I'm worried about is that "abuse" won't be taken the same in a court here (modern Asian country but still psychologically stuck in 1970). It's more a normalized part of their culture. People see kids getting whopped by their mothers or grandmothers in the street and don't do anything about it. I don't know how her abuse of the kids or a man getting hit will be viewed. Again I need the lawyers input on this one. Also being a foreigner / non-Asian in a country where TV news of foreigners making mischief is common. I'm lucky I speak Chinese very fluently but still afraid I've got some hard truths coming my way.  

~ROE

 

[Radcliff]

Roland,

I am sorry for the stress you are under.  This stage of acting and asserting ones self against what is going on is tremendously stressful.  Beyond stressful.  When I was in this stage last October, I thought I'd drop dead from a heart attack.  You have an awareness of the load you're under, and talk about being happy the lawyers are moving slowly -- that's a good thing to be aware of.  This is like any other battle or contest where you need to be conscious of your limits to be effective.

One of the things that is going on here is that you are learning, and she is learning.  Always think about what she is learning.  She learned that if she destroys your things, you will push back hard.  But she learned that if she hits you, you won't.  You learned that if you push back, you can have some success.  But then she will also push back.  That is to be expected.  Hold your ground.

If you were in the United States, I would say that you should have called the police when she hit you.  As a foreigner in a different country, you have a different situation.  But perhaps if you had called them you would have gotten two benefits -- you would have taught your wife that you won't accept hitting, and you would have had a chance to gauge how the police would respond to an assault incident.  Hitting you right after the police left really tells a story, and the police might have understood (this woman is over the top, and is escalating).

Have you established a clear boundary with her about hitting you?  That if she hits you again, you will call the police?

Hang in there.  This is terribly difficult.  You have decided to act because the status quo was untenable.  Keep pushing through to get to the other side.

I'm reminded of a time many years ago, before we had kids, when my wife and did a few whitewater rafting trips, working our way up to Class 5 rapids.  The guide explained to us that in order to steer the raft, we must be moving forward.  Even if our faces were full of water and we couldn't see, he needed us to paddle as hard as we could.  You may feel blind and uncertain and scared, but you just keep paddling forward.  Hard.  The rapids will eventually end.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Thank you, WW. We will have to see the long term effect of me calling the police. I did pick up and dial the phone after she hit me with total intent to call and she saw this and begged me not to. My hope is that this one time call will prevent an array of extreme behaviors.  

Honestly, I really don't want to do it again since it was gut-wrenching and the cops here don't seem to know how to manage this sort of thing and thought it was kind of ridiculous. To be honest, they were rather ineffectual and the incident was as humiliating for me as for her. Plus the neighbors saw the police as I was letting them in. We already have conflict with a few powerful people in the building and I'm concerned this could lead to us getting thrown out at some point.

But you better believe I documented everything.  

The second thing is the fact that I haven't spoken to the lawyer yet and I'm totally unprepared to go to court at this stage. So I have to be careful about escalating too soon or doing things like call the cops before I understand my rights here. It's possible they might laugh in my face if I say my wife hit me. Sometimes I have to face the reality of what I am here versus what I am back in the US. Boy I miss home sometimes.  

If I make another call before things get going, it's more likely to go to child protective services. But I hesitate even on that. As much as I want my kids safe as soon as possible, if I detonate the situation before I'm prepared all of my work so far could be in vain and she might even end up as the one with custody. She's the mother after all as well as a citizen of this country.    

I'm going to add one last thing and welcome you guys to talk some sense into me on this. I'm really afraid of getting her arrested since it may destroy her ability to get a job for life (she's a teacher). I really don't want to do that, even if her behavior was illegal. I know I need to focus on the present more than the future but I have to admit I'm not fully there yet. I still really care about her. And I think getting her to move out and lose custody of the kids without charges pressed is enough to get the message to her.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

Roland, an implicit understanding on these boards, especially in a DV situation, is that the member knows the situation on the ground and has much better context than the members replying on the thread, so in the end their judgement has to be respected.  You are being very thoughtful about your decisions and undoubtedly are charting the best possible course given the circumstances.

Regarding ruining your wife's chances of getting a job for life, are you sure about that?  I don't know how it works in the country you are in, but in the U.S. nearly any of the crimes my wife has committed against me are midemeanors.  In the U.S., the bar for conviction is very high -- beyond a reasonable doubt.  So if your wife were to hit you in the U.S., and you had no injuries, witnesses, or video evidence, it would be "he said, she said," and a conviction would be nearly impossible.  No impact on getting a job.  But the involvement of authorities would be an effective "shot across the bow," establishing a consequence for the bad behavior, and would also generate convincing documentation.  Speaking of documentation, if local laws permit it, get a copy of the police report from the shirt stealing incident.

I don't mean to second guess your decision the other day, though.  I hear you about your concerns about being evicted, wanting to learn from your lawyer first, etc.  I am sure the stress and pain are intense, but you are making good decisions.  You'll get through this.

WW

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi ROE, thank you for the updates, and I am so sorry you had to experience such a stressful situation. WW is right, when we first begin to assert boundaries and act on the decision we have made to no longer allow abusive treatment, the emotions we feel surrounding that decision can seem to pull us under the waves of chaos and drag us along. However, you have an anchor here. I only wish I had known about this site when I was going through the worst of the storm last October and November. I think it would have been a great help to have a plan laid out like you do. I stayed frozen with fear and indecision for much too long because I did not know what to do. You are making some really good choices. I imagine being in a foreign country as an "outsider" adds a whole different level to an already complex situation. It is good that you do have the opportunity to talk to a lawyer, and I understand your hesitation to act until you can speak with him/her. Perhaps when you consult with the L you can get a better idea of where you stand if you were to need the police or child services to get involved.

As for this statement:

I'm going to add one last thing and welcome you guys to talk some sense into me on this. I'm really afraid of getting her arrested since it may destroy her ability to get a job for life (she's a teacher). I really don't want to do that, even if her behavior was illegal. I know I need to focus on the present more than the future but I have to admit I'm not fully there yet. I still really care about her. And I think getting her to move out and lose custody of the kids without charges pressed is enough to get the message to her.

~ROE

Let me just say that these thoughts exactly mirror some of the thinking that I had. I did not want to "get my husband arrested." However, I have come to realize that it was his behavior that got him arrested. I called the police because he put me in a position where that was the only reasonable choice to make. I am not responsible for the repercussions he experiences as a result of the actions he chose. I was stuck in the mindset of protecting him from the natural consequences of his behavior. I have learned from this website that doing that prevents growth and maturity in our pwBPD. I thought I was "helping", and really I was "enabling". Also, I felt that my actions would be twisted and perceived as being "vindictive" by him. However, I got to the point where that just didn't matter. My safety and my child's safety were more important to me than his disordered feelings.

Whether or not your wife can remain in her chosen field is not your responsibility, and it is a worry that should not even be taking up space in your mind right now. You have plenty of "here and now" stuff to deal with- try to let the far-off stuff go, or at least try to change your perception of it. You seem to be trying to guide your wife's self-destructive course to a soft landing instead of a crash landing. You may not be able to prevent all the harsh consequences, and it is not your job to do so.

You are making good decisions ROE. Keep up the good work, we are all rooting for you.

[Radcliff]

Let me just say that these thoughts exactly mirror some of the thinking that I had. I did not want to "get my husband arrested." However, I have come to realize that it was his behavior that got him arrested. I called the police because he put me in a position where that was the only reasonable choice to make. I am not responsible for the repercussions he experiences as a result of the actions he chose. I was stuck in the mindset of protecting him from the natural consequences of his behavior. I have learned from this website that doing that prevents growth and maturity in our pwBPD. I thought I was "helping", and really I was "enabling". Also, I felt that my actions would be twisted and perceived as being "vindictive" by him. However, I got to the point where that just didn't matter. My safety and my child's safety were more important to me than his disordered feelings.

Exactly.  Redeemed is right on target here.  Well said!  Roland, it took me a long time to realize this.  Mostly I've got it now, but even now I still feel pulled back to the old thinking every once in a while, especially when I'm exposed to someone who feels a lot of empathy for my wife like one of her friends.  But changing our caretaking way of thinking about things is the only way out of the trap.

WW

[Speck]

ROE,

Wow. I'm sorry to read that things have been so difficult for you. I have nothing terribly deep to add (because everyone else has said it so well), but just know that we're all rooting for you and for this quagmire to have a glorious outcome for you.


-Speck