Building an action plan, need guidance

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all, I am preparing an action plan in the event that my uBPDw does not seek help or treatment and am starting this thread to seek everyone's feedback and experience. I hope this thread can also help those in the process of planning for a change.

Long story short, I just got back to work from a one week national holiday. It only took three straight days at home for me to have a near breakdown. This shows me that being at work most of the day has become my only means of staying sane and that I otherwise cannot endure this relationship much longer.

It wasn't a big thing this time but a few small things that had me sobbing close to hysterically in front of my two little kids hidden in a public restroom. The first was when I was going out to buy a special dessert my wife wanted. I stopped at the door to ask her to look for a file that she'd sent me but I didn't receive, to which she responded "You're so annoying, get lost!" (in her native language this actually comes out a lot harsher and made me feel like a misbehaving dog). I debated whether I should maintain my pride and not get the dessert for her, but I got it to keep peace during the holiday. The next day it was her criticizing me for a host of small things one after another, at which I finally snapped at her and she walked off, leaving me with the kids.

The point is that even these small things could bring me to the breaking point. I have worked on myself, practiced radical acceptance, am in therapy, but its not enough. I know I need her to change or I needed a separation to save myself and therefore be a strong dad to my children.

But the kids are not yet in school. My wife has not gone back to work yet and the family is financially dependent on me (challenge 1). I have spent the majority of my personal savings getting the family through (challenge 2) so not a lot of extra cash on hand. She still has plenty of savings.

I think when (if) she goes back to work and we have two income streams again would be a much better time to propose a break. I can suggest she move out and I take kids or I move out and she keep the kids. I would offer her a road back of treatment at our nearby hospital, which has an excellent BPD treatment program. There are many complications to this that I will bring up later.   

I know that the current situation is the result of thousands of decisions on both our parts and I'm not denying responsibility. And I do love her. I think by showing her that she needs to change if she wants to stay with me is taking a responsible action. By staying and staying and not doing anything I am showing her its OK to do these things and treat me this way. Why should she want to go to therapy if I'm still there at the end of the day? 

I would love to hear everyone's suggestions both on the logistical side and the emotional side of how to handle this proposed separation when the time is right. Or, if there is an alternative to separation I haven't considered, something that gives her a consequence forcing her to confront her behavior.

Thanks everyone!

~ROE       

[pearlsw]

Hi ROE,

I'm in this space at the moment too, with barely a plan... .My "h" is trying to get some help, but it is excruciatingly slow going and I am watching to see when/if he'll toss the idea again if he gets into a "black phase"... .I know one is coming any day now. He can barely get through a week.

He is just barely holding on to life. It is really depression that is becoming more of the issue lately. He needs support. He needs major help. I am afraid he is only seeking, or mostly seeking, the help because of me. I didn't push it on him, I encouraged, but did not insist. I sometimes wonder if I should have guided this in a stronger fashion. His doctor doesn't seem to think so. He sort of flippantly tossed off the idea the other day that it is all up to my "h". Maybe he's right. I don't know anymore. I just hate to see him suffer and I hate to get all the "friendly fire" from his illnesses.

I can relate to having felt better when I had time away from him.

It's hard not to think things could be better if only a few factors would fall into line... .

The most important thing is for you to hold it together - yourself I mean. That is the part you have the most control over and it is vital that you have the support you need to make it and only then be able to help others.

I'll be watching this post carefully... .

warmly, pearl.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi pearl, I was just in the process of replying to your tracking your feelings post when I saw this but I may as well connect with you here.

I have been following your story ever since I came to this board and it sounds like its been getting harder and harder for you. I'm so sorry things aren't taking a better direction. Do not blame yourself for anything in terms of guiding him. I'm sure you did your best and his life is his responsibility. He was suffering long before he met you I'm sure and unless he decides to do something he will continue to suffer. There is nothing we can do until they propose responsible actions to improve their lives that we can support. We can't save them, and the more we try the more we lose ourselves and become incapable of helping anyone. 

My wife is in a "black phase" recently, too, though I'm starting to wonder if black phase is the norm with just short interims of positivity. I have to remind myself she would get like this even when our life was at its best and easiest.

She is calling on me to move us or let her move out on her own because of the noisy upstairs neighbors (we can't afford it, she's not working yet). She's demanding I take a 3 month leave from work (I could lose my job, or at least my standing) to let her focus on getting a job while I watch the kids and we can live off her savings instead of sending them to preschool and I keep working. I'm still slightly foggy enough that I consider both, but it's just not feasible. She's drinking almost nonstop and passing out in front of the kids. Today when I refused to take the leave she did the usual phone attacks and threats that I will regret it and I'll "find out tomorrow". She will probably try to leave me with the kids again so I can't work. I'll have to hide my shoes and phone and personal belongings. Boy I don't want to go home but only a half hour left.

Let's look at that word "help". She thinks I don't want to help because I'm not willing to help in the way she wants. I have done a ton of things to help her get a job, including taking a year off from work after our second was born that cost me almost my entire savings and my job.   

Like you said I need to hold it together, but it's really hard when I have to face this treatment and two screaming kids on my own. But I've done it before so I suppose I'll get through. 

All the best,
ROE

[heartandwhole]

Hi ROE,

I'm so sorry that your holidays had such difficult moments. That is really difficult to get through. I've been there—in a bathroom, crying—caused by the fallout of my relationship. I felt like I was crumbling and it felt terrible. 

She's drinking almost nonstop and passing out in front of the kids.

Can you put this front and center with regard to her getting help? Have you addressed this together before, and if so, what is her response to dealing with the problem?

heart

[formflier]

ROE,

Hey!  I don't think I've been in your threads before.

I've picked up a "vibe" from you post that you are assuming or giving your wife credit for thinking things through... .for "intellectualizing" her decisions.  Likely this is because that is the way you process things (also a vibe I picked up as you sorted through potential decisions in the future.

such as... .if my wife gets a job, then two finance streams... .then perhaps time for a break while she gets treatment in an excellent hospital. 

That's solid thinking on your part... .

But... .(there is always a but... )

I'll be you an enormous amount of money, that your wife' doesn't approach problem solving/planning in this way.  Especially in a "black" phase. 

Have you done much reading on "emotional decision making" or "reacting to emotions"?

That's likely something you should understand much... .much better.

Thoughts so far?

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Roland, Hats off to you for taking steps to form an action plan.  The timing of any potential separation from your uBPDw, I understand, is tricky because you have young kids in the picture.  I was once in your shoes and, out of concern for our kids and my own inertia, reached a point where I was stuck, unable to move forwards or backwards.  Does this sound familiar to you, or like something on the horizon?  If so, you're not alone.  I suggest taking steps to take care of yourself in order to avoid the burnout that I suffered.  I would also add that waiting for a pwBPD to change or follow through on something is often a futile vigil.

LuckyJim

[Tattered Heart]

I have a little file icon on my desktop at work title "Leaving Plan". Sometimes I look at this and remember when I began to make serious plans to leave.

This folder contains:
Document 1
Behavior tracking sheet-I wanted to see how bad things really were or was I just being overly sensitive. I wish I could show a screen shot of it. I would track his behavior AM/PM. I think I set a time frame of 45 days and if he had 30 days with some sort of abuse towards me, then I would move into my next plan of action.

Header 1: Each day of the week
Header 2: AM slot PM slot under each day of the week

List of behaviors to track:
Physical abuse
    Threads of Violence/SI
    Property Destruction
Verbal abuse
     Name calling
     Shaming
     Yelling
     Blaming
     Gaslighting
     Controlling
Spiritual Abuse
     Demands obedience/submission
     Attacking my faith

Operational definitions: I created definitions for each category so that I would be clear on what this looks like to me.
Every time I marked a behavior, I would include a narrative in space below it so I could track the specifics about the behavior so I could remember

Document 2:
Budget-what my monthly budget would look like if I were to either move out or if I were to kick him out

Document 3:
Income vs. Expenses-scenarios as to how we would split the cost of bills that we have together, such as the mortgage

Document 4:
To-Do list of everything I would need to do to separate from what to do with pets, finding out how to safely leave, completing a MOSAIC, finding a support team, etc.

List of things to do on the day that I leave, such as notifying my family and my H's family (so they could support him).

The weirdest thing happened. I don't know if my resolve to leave had to changed my attitude towards him and allowed me to detach enough that I stopped letting him get to me, or he sensed that something had changed, but the period that I began to track was the best time in our relationship in years. He became extremely peaceful, discovered on his own that he had BPD, began learning about DBT, and resolved to focus on his own behavior.

I keep that plan there though just in case things start to get really bad again. It's a reminder to me that leaving is an option because up until that time I felt trapped and if there was no leaving the relationship.

[RolandOfEld]

Hi all, 12 hours and over half my wardrobe cut to shreds later... .

heartandwhole just before she announced she was BPD last year she announced she was alcoholic and now I'm not sure she still believes either. As with all problems she admits them and then forgets about or ignores them. If I bring them up, it is impossible for her to admit anything and it will come back on me in full. She had managed to stop drinking for four months before this recent holiday binge. The drinking comes and goes. I hate it but it's not at the top of my boundary list.

FF good points on the emotional decision making. One boundary I've set well since my wife's BPD came to light is I don't make decisions in the context of an argument. The old me by now would have agreed to take a work leave. If she were healthy I might truly consider it. But I don't trust her any more to use the time well or to make major life decisions.

Hi Lucky Jim and good to meet you. Yes that sounds familiar. Actually I went through the whole process of accepting I can't change her (or at least thought I did), but I still want to leave the option for her to change on the table while at the same time taking care of myself and my kids. But I realized I have been waiting for her and passive aggressively pushing this on her, thinking her seeing me break down might catalyze some empathy on her part and desire to change. I need to lose this thinking.

TH That is a fantastic idea and I've already started it. If nothing else it will remind me of what's happened since I have a pretty selective memory when it comes to facing reality. Thanks!

While lying awake last night I had some time to brainstorm possible leaving scenarios: 

1) I move out alone
Benefits: instant relief from situation and clear message to her on where I stand
Drawbacks: this is essentially abandoning my kids and she might become even more unstable around them. She would also have a case to keep me from seeing the kids.

2) I move out with kids
Benefits: I still see my kids
Drawbacks: kids don't have their mom (she is a good mom when not dysregulated)

3) I ask her to move out
Benefits: same as above
Drawbacks: kind of cruel OR might give her too much freedom, also kids don't have their mom, and would probably have to get a restraining order

4) I take kids away to my home country and stay with family (most extreme situation)
Benefits: support of family and safety of distance
Drawbacks: will lose my job and give her a very strong case against me, also might burn all bridges

I think the key to any action plan for separation is that it needs to be sustainable and permanent if needed. Any ideas on the above? Thanks!

ROE

[formflier]

FF good points on the emotional decision making. One boundary I've set well since my wife's BPD came to light is I don't make decisions in the context of an argument. The old me by now would have agreed to take a work leave. If she were healthy I might truly consider it. But I don't trust her any more to use the time well or to make major life decisions.
 

So... how does this knowledge apply to the way you interact and talk with her? 

I do like that you don't want to make decisions around an argument.  I wonder why she was arguing?  I wonder why you were arguing?

What do you suppose she is trying to "fix" with the work leave idea?  (spend some time on this one)

FF

[Radcliff]

Roland,

Big picture, two things jump out at me:

1.  How you develop and select from your options depends very much on the laws and functioning of the family court systems in your region.  You are not really ready for anything but preliminary planning until you have legal support.  I am not talking about spending tons of money.  I am talking about doing the homework to find a great lawyer who you can work well with, and buying 1-2 hours of his or her time to discuss scenarios.  Do you have a lawyer?

2.  If you split, what are your personal goals for custody of the children? What percentage time would you want custody?  If I were in your shoes I would plan primarily around my goals for parenting the children (which also includes keeping their father intact).

WW

[RolandOfEld]

FF as you know its like living in two dimensions. I know what's going on with her but I can't use it to make a case with her since it's less fact than interpretation.

Her view: She can't get a job now because I refused to take a paternity leave when our son was a baby so she had to quit her job and she's been out of the market too long. She can't get a job now because I'm refusing to take leave to let her prepare for upcoming tests/interviews and she has no time.

My view: I did take a six month leave at home with my son, and when it finished she quit because her job offered no leave. She hated that job by the end. Then the sector she's in took a huge hit, we had a second child, and it is super hard for anyone to get this kind of job now. I took a YEAR OFF when our second was born and used up most of my life savings and lost my job to support us both to help her take care of two and give her a chance to work on the job stuff. I found babysitters and kindergartens and have offered to give my entire weekend to give her time to prepare. But she doesn't like sending the kids to babysitters or kindergarten so I'm not "helping her" because my job is the most precious thing in the world to me. Neglecting the fact that they would have to go to kindergarten anyway if she gets a job.

I also think part of the reason she hasn't gotten a new job yet is because she's too chaotic and doesn't have true confidence in the interview. But of course I can't say this.    

Sorry don't know how useful this sharing is but really needed to tell my side of things to somebody.

ROE  

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW and thanks so much for the feedback.

I am very lucky in the lawyer regard in two ways. The counseling organization I work with has cooperating lawyers who I'm guessing have a decent knowledge of mental illness. The second thing is that lawyers in the country I live in do not charge for an initial consultation, only if they take the case. So it is definitely a part of my plan to ask my therapist to connect me with their lawyer for information. 

Planning around parenting goals is a terrific suggestion. Most important is I want them to have both of us in their lives almost every day. I don't know if this is realistic but I really don't want to take her kids away from her. Maybe I need to start thinking more practically and less emotionally? I haven't been away from my kids for more than a day since they were born.

~ROE

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi ROE,

A few observations and questions:

She is calling on me to move us or let her move out on her own because of the noisy upstairs neighbors (we can't afford it, she's not working yet). She's demanding I take a 3 month leave from work (I could lose my job, or at least my standing) to let her focus on getting a job while I watch the kids and we can live off her savings instead of sending them to preschool and I keep working. I'm still slightly foggy enough that I consider both, but it's just not feasible.

It sounds like your wife is experiencing some internal turmoil, and is seeking external sources as a solution (If only I had a job, if only we lived somewhere else... .) What is stopping her from moving out on her own, if the noisy neighbors are that intolerable? Does she want you to provide financial support for two households if she does? Does she want to take the kids with her?

FF as you know its like living in two dimensions. I know what's going on with her but I can't use it to make a case with her since it's less fact than interpretation.

Her view: She can't get a job now because I refused to take a paternity leave when our son was a baby so she had to quit her job and she's been out of the market too long. She can't get a job now because I'm refusing to take leave to let her prepare for upcoming tests/interviews and she has no time.

My view: I did take a six month leave at home with my son, and when it finished she quit because her job offered no leave. She hated that job by the end. Then the sector she's in took a huge hit, we had a second child, and it is super hard for anyone to get this kind of job now. I took a YEAR OFF when our second was born and used up most of my life savings and lost my job to support us both to help her take care of two and give her a chance to work on the job stuff. I found babysitters and kindergartens and have offered to give my entire weekend to give her time to prepare. But she doesn't like sending the kids to babysitters or kindergarten so I'm not "helping her" because my job is the most precious thing in the world to me. Neglecting the fact that they would have to go to kindergarten anyway if she gets a job.

I am not sure that "facts" vs. "interpretation" would make much of a difference. PwBPD do not respond to logic and being presented with facts the way "nons" do. For her, feelings=facts. She feels that she needs a job, and she feels that you are a) the reason she had to quit her last job and b) the reason she can not get a job now. It does not matter what the facts are.

Furthermore, you have a job- which is what she feels that she needs- therefore, she is targeting your job as the "problem". You have what she feels she needs, wants, deserves- she may be jealous that you get to leave the house every day and go to work while she is left at home with the kids. She wants to reverse those roles- have you left at home with the kids while she gets to go to work and be part of the world. Hence, the retaliation of taking your phone, shoes, personal belongings and leaving so you have to miss work to take care of the kids. She is not considering the repercussions such behavior may have on your family financially. That is irresponsible and immature. It is also controlling and vindictive. She is putting herself and her emotions ahead of the security of her family.

Add alcohol in the mix, and that increases the level of emotional instability and decreases any propensity for making sound decisions.

I think you need to focus on what is in the best interests of you and your children. It would be nice if you could somehow steer your wife into treatment, but do not let that take precedence over your own well-being and your ability to care for your children physically, mentally and emotionally: 

it sounds like its been getting harder and harder for you. I'm so sorry things aren't taking a better direction. Do not blame yourself for anything in terms of guiding him. I'm sure you did your best and his life is his responsibility. He was suffering long before he met you I'm sure and unless he decides to do something he will continue to suffer. There is nothing we can do until they propose responsible actions to improve their lives that we can support. We can't save them, and the more we try the more we lose ourselves and become incapable of helping anyone. 

ROE

I sincerely wish you the best ROE. I agree with WW on the lawyer idea. It would be helpful to know your options in that aspect, as that may help you get clarity on some of the specifics regarding what course of action to take.

Blessings and peace to you and your family,

Redeemed

[RolandOfEld]

Redeemed, you explicated the situation with such precision and insight I was nearly in tears. Thank you.

It sounds like your wife is experiencing some internal turmoil, and is seeking external sources as a solution.

Yes, last week it was the neighbor noise, before it was getting back her job it was how painful the job was, before that it was getting a house, before that it was whether to live in her country or mine, etc. There is ALWAYS something ruining her life that I need to resolve for her. I'm sure if she gets a job she will find a new series of problems to pass to me.  

Furthermore, you have a job- which is what she feels that she needs- therefore, she is targeting your job as the "problem".

This rings so true it hurts. She's not necessarily just attacking me, she's attacking my job. But I have to protect it. She's working from emotion, I'm working from reality.  

It is not financially possible for one of us to move out unless she lives off her savings (which she has said she would and not use my money) or I borrow money from family. Hence the need to wait for her to get a job. She always says she will leave me when she gets a job or run away to another country and I take the kids, but I know its BS. First because she's terrified to sleep on her own and hasn't done so since grad school, and second because I know she loves the kids too much to be away from them.  

Noting that I just spoke to my counselor and he will help me to arrange a chat with the lawyer. This doesn't mean I'm proceeding with anything yet, but it will help me get a framework for building the plan.

~ROE

[Radcliff]

I am very lucky in the lawyer regard in two ways. The counseling organization I work with has cooperating lawyers who I'm guessing have a decent knowledge of mental illness. The second thing is that lawyers in the country I live in do not charge for an initial consultation, only if they take the case. So it is definitely a part of my plan to ask my therapist to connect me with their lawyer for information. 

Excellent.  Consider finding a way to talk to three lawyers.  Perhaps you can talk to two more from some other referral source, or maybe you could even ask the lawyer you talk to if he or she has any mentors or others whose opinion he or she respects.

Planning around parenting goals is a terrific suggestion. Most important is I want them to have both of us in their lives almost every day. I don't know if this is realistic but I really don't want to take her kids away from her. Maybe I need to start thinking more practically and less emotionally? I haven't been away from my kids for more than a day since they were born.

How old are your kids?  Consider that if you split, seeing the kids every day likely means seeing your wife every day.  I'm not an expert, but I believe custody schedules with two very involved parents are often split more finely during the week for small children.  Where teenagers might do a week with each parent, young children typically would see each parent every couple or few days.  I'm sure with a Web search on "parenting schedules" or something similar you can find examples.  When my youngest was two, things were very rough for us, and I considered leaving, but wanted to read to her every night.  I am glad for that bonding time, but also now realize that I could easily have adjusted to 50% custody, especially given that the 50% parenting time would be peaceful, without drama, and the 50% without kids would allow me to rebuild, do self-care, and perhaps start a new relationship someday.  So, one possibility for you would be to build a plan around 50% custody, to see if the logistics could be made to work.  It doesn't mean that you'd have to invoke the plan, but just knowing what was possible is empowering.  Do you know if 50% custody for a father is realistic in your region?

If you wife were parenting solo, do you have any physical safety concerns for your children?  I'm thinking specifically of her alcohol use, and the possibility of her passing out and leaving them unsupervised, or trouble with driving safely.

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Hi WW, My daughter is 2 and my son 5.  I think the 50% idea is something I could get used to. I have to remember the trade off of losing time with them is time to rebuild myself and be a happier, healthier dad. I feel like dealing with my wife siphons off so much emotional energy that I'm performing at about 30% of the dad I could be.

If you wife were parenting solo, do you have any physical safety concerns for your children?  I'm thinking specifically of her alcohol use, and the possibility of her passing out and leaving them unsupervised, or trouble with driving safely.

Yes some concern on passing out since it happened once when she was alone with them.

I won't mince words here... .she hits them sometimes. I've seen her kick my son from behind, slap him in the face, and one time when I was out with coworkers she whipped him with a glue gun stick. If I'm there to shield him I do, but most of the time I don't see it coming. It's not often, and she always deeply regrets it after and comforts him. The only reason I haven't escalated on this is because I know she is trying to fight it and she takes care of the consequences herself and tells him she was wrong to hit. She came from a home of extreme physical violence. Though I've yelled at her about it I usually let it slide to avoid escalation and out of the belief that they both love her and need her. She is a teddy bear with them most of the time. Please call me out if I'm over the line on this. I don't know what would happen if I was out of the picture, so of course I would prefer they were with me.  

ROE

[I Am Redeemed]

 ROE,

Your wife may be a "teddy bear" with your children most of the time, but some of the time she is putting their physical and emotional well-being at risk.

Would you leave your children with a babysitter who "sometimes got drunk and passed out" and "sometimes" hit them? I am sure you clearly would not.

You are deep in the FOG, ROE, and I feel for you because I have been exactly where you are. It is difficult sometimes in the midst of a situation to have clarity, and I commend you for your honesty and for reaching out for help, to gain the perspective of others. It is clear that you do want the best for your children, and you wish that your wife would seek treatment so that she can be the mother they need. I am sure that she does love them deeply; however, in her current disordered state she is not capable of providing them the level of care that they require and deserve.

You have FEAR- of inciting a rage in your wife if you stand up for your children when she mistreats them; also of being able to financially provide for yourself and your children if you were to leave.

You feel OBLIGATED to protect your wife's relationship with your children. You do not want her to miss the children, and you do not want the children to miss her. You feel a sense of OBLIGATION to both your wife and children to prevent this undesired emotion.You also feel OBLIGATED to keep providing financially for your wife until such time as she is able to support herself, which is what you have identified as the ideal scenario for you to enforce boundaries.

You feel GUILTY for your wife's treatment of your children, for "letting it slide'', for entertaining thoughts of separating her from the children, perhaps even for not having the right "solution" for all of you.


ROE,
There is a difference in what you are responsible for and who you are responsible to :

You are responsible to your children for 1) Providing physical needs: i.e., food, clothing, shelter, and an environment where they are protected from physical harm and 2) Providing emotional needs, i.e., an environment where they are loved and nurtured and protected from emotional damage, abuse, and trauma.

You are not responsible for your wife, for her choices, for the consequences of her behavior, for her decision to seek treatment or not seek treatment, nor for her relationship with your children.

You said your wife experienced extreme physical abuse as a child. I am sure that was very traumatic for her, and it is tragic. However. That may be a reason for her dysfunctional behavior, but it is not an excuse.

When I was in your shoes, I could not see any of this with any clarity whatsoever. I made some poor choices, and I made some good choices. I paid a high price for some of my poor choices. I paid a high price for some of my good choices in that I had to suffer to a severe degree before I got uncomfortable enough to establish boundaries. I also endured harsh judgment for the decisions I made. Please know that I understand fully the complexities of the situation you are in, including the abuse of a mood-altering substance to further compound the symptoms displayed by a pwBPD. I can relate so much to your feelings regarding your wife and her r/s with the children. You do not want to be responsible for taking that away. If leaving is what you ultimately choose to do, please realize that it is not you who is causing the separation. Your wife's behavior is the cause of the separation. That shift in perspective may relieve you somewhat of the uncomfortable emotions you are experiencing in that regard.

Dear ROE, I sincerely hope that you take all that I have said in the manner in which I intended it: I am trying to share what I have learned since coming through the situation I was in. In the middle of it, I was so confused. I did not know how to make a good decision. You are reaching out for help and feedback, and you have a T, so you are doing much better than I was when I was trying to make some tough choices. Planning is good. I ultimately did decide to leave the situation I was in, for my safety and that of S2, and I did not have time to get a plan together. It added a level of anxiety that would have not been there had I been prepared. However, things worked out for us. God is good, and He has provided.

So glad you have a counselor. It is great to have someone for support. Inside a r/s with pwBPD, it is easy to feel overwhelmed and isolated. It does siphon off emotional energy. What do you do to refill your "tank" when you have been emotionally drained? Self-care is crucial. I was not any good at it, and I was running on emotional fumes. I am learning how to better care for myself now.

Keep posting, ROE. I am glad you are sharing your experience. Again, I commend you for being brave enough to be honest and willing to accept feedback.    It is not easy to do sometimes.


Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

[formflier]

ROE,

I Am Redeemed laid it out for you... about your wife's feelings.

I'm going to press you a bit. 

Step 1, you need to be able to intellectualize  the likely way that your wife processes information and feelings (and perhaps confuses those). 

Step 2.  Have a crystal clear view of how you process information and feelings (please note my difference in language for you and her... .I wonder why? hmmm).

Step 3.  Hopefully with your counselor's support and the support of us here on bpdfamily, you can be deliberate about changing the way YOU do YOUR PART of the relationship.  These changes need to be consistent.

Step 4:  I'll stop here can challenge you to describe what will happen to your relationship after you are consistent in changing your part... .

Thoughts?

FF

[BeagleGirl]

RoE,
    I Am Redeemed and formflier have given some great insight and advice.  I wanted to chime in with a different viewpoint that may help you as you decide what to do.
    My first experience with my MIL was when my (15yo at the time) dBPDstbxh took me home for lunch one day.  I walked in the house and immediately heard my MIL screaming at my SIL (9 years younger than my husband, so that would make her 6yo at the time) that she hated her and if she had a gun she'd shoot her.  I had never heard anyone speak that way before, much less to a child.  What I learned in the months and years that followed was that this was the norm.  MIL was eventually diagnosed as bipolar, but I wonder if there is BPD in the mix as well.  NEITHER OF THOSE ILLNESSES EXCUSES CHILD ABUSE.  At that point in time all of her abuse was verbal, psychological, and emotional.  She did eventually hit my SIL.  When dBPDstbxh and I found out about it we both told SIL to tell us or a teacher if MIL ever hit her again.  It happened again and SIL told her teacher and the teacher called CPS.  They left with a warning and MIL never hit SIL again, but there were plenty of times we wished she would because the rest of the abuse never stopped.
    Where was FIL in all of this?  He was at work.  He was always at work.  His life was no bed of roses, but he got to escape the house, leaving dBPDstbxh and SIL to deal with MIL's abuse.  It didn't take long before I resented FIL's unwillingness to protect his children from the daily abuse they witnessed and endured.  It took about 15 years of being out of that house for it to fully dawn on dBPDstbxh that his dad should have done something about it and their relationship has never been the same.
    Even in the early days of our dating I knew that dBPDstbxh carried a lot of guilt about prayers that he had prayed.  He would pray that his dad would leave his mom.  He hoped that MIL would leave a mark on SIL so that CPS would be able to intervene.  He was the peacemaker of the family, so the abuse was rarely directed at him, but he still carries the scars.  He escaped by joining my FOO and still carries the guilt of abandoning SIL by doing so.
    I can tell that you love your children.  It fills every word you write.  I also know that you want them to have their mother.  That is certainly a gift, as many people allow their adult problems to become more important than their children's needs.  I can't imagine the pain of considering separating your children from their mother and vice versa. 
    BUT I can imagine the pain and confusion your son feels.  I can imagine a day when he will feel the need to protect his sister from his mother.  I can imagine a day when he will pray that dad would divorce mom and keep them safe and then cry himself to sleep because of what a horrible prayer that is and what a horrible person he must be to pray it.  I can imagine a day when he be unable to look in your face and call you "dad" because a dad is supposed to keep his kids safe.  I can imagine those things because I've watched them happen to my husband.
    I'm not saying that you need to divorce your wife.  What I am saying is that you need to find a way to protect your children.  I think there may be ways to protect your children and maintain the marriage that provides an "intact" home for them.  If you read through FormFlier's history, there was a time when he had to report his wife for excessive corporal punishment of their children.  There are lots of resources that are here to help you, your children, and your wife. 
    Please remember that your children are too young and your wife too disordered to do what is best for them.  That really sucks.  It really, really sucks that you have to take on the burden of protecting your kids from their own mother.  Please reach out for help.  Share the burden with whomever you can.  Just don't drop the burden on your kids.  Don't think that your wife's remorse means it will never happen again.  Make a plan for when it does happen again, because it will.   
    My prayers are with you.  If there is any help I can offer, please let me know.
BG

[Radcliff]

Hi Roland,

Your "inbox" is full of replies here, and while I don't want to overload you with reading, I will add one more.

There is a concept called "duty to care" that says that the non-abusive parent has a responsibility to act to protect the children from abuse.  This could mean direct intervention or it could mean contacting the authorities.  It is common in the U.S.  I don't know if it is part of the law where you live, but it almost doesn't matter -- for those of us trapped in the FOG, it's helpful to think about the fact that society holds us to a standard outside of our FOG.  The thing that finally drove me out of my FOG to get a restraining order was the fact that my daughter was witnessing violence and was being co-opted by my wife to normalize it.  It crossed both my own personal line and I knew it was likely to be crossing a "duty to care" line which helped bolster my conviction to take action.  It is one of the most difficult things I have done in my life.  The consequences are still reverberating, but if I had it to do over again, I'd do it.  In fact, if I could do it over again, I would do it much sooner.

Your wife is actively drinking.  And forgive me for not remembering, but she is not in therapy, is she?

Do you happen to have a journal with any of these incidents?  If not, you should immediately begin journaling any violent or neglectful incidents (like passing out).  You also should be journaling any incidents of her leaving the kids so you can't go to work, and any abusive incidents like shredding your clothes.  In addition to being able to show this information to outside helpers, it's helpful to break through the minimization and denial that are our coping mechanisms.

Did you say that you are dealing with an agency?  Are they providing both your T and your lawyer?  I'm guessing you have not discussed the child abuse with them?

There are several scenarios for reporting what's going on, but let me pause for now and let you digest all the responses.

What are your thoughts?

WW

[RolandOfEld]

Dear all, thank you for your feedback over the weekend, which may truly save me and my children's lives.

I have hinted at the physical abuse on the board since I came on, but I am ashamed to admit I withheld on the extent both to protect my wife as well as my own failure to act. I hope everyone can forgive me for this. I have been and probably still am to some degree lost in the FOG. I am scared to admit how sick my wife is and very afraid to face what I have to do.

I am close to nervous breakdown. Last night I really started to lose it, muttering to myself and crying / laughing almost hysterically. I thankfully had some anti-anxiety medicine left over and will be calling my counselor first thing today. I have already reached out to them about getting a lawyer.

I am Redeemed, WW and BeagleGirl thank you for being candid with me about this and reminding me about duty to care.

My wife is not in therapy. The drinking thing crept back up quietly and is in full force again, not necessarily every day but more days than not it seems. Last night I snapped at her on my way out to see a friend, and when I came back she was completely drunk while taking care of our daughter. I admit to buying some of the alcohol for her beforehand at her request. I have considered not buying for her, but as she would buy it anyway and refusing would cause a huge conflict I've just been doing it. There it is. I left her with a half sized bottle of wine and my daughter for two hours. She added another while I was out. I'm enabling her, out of Fear and to avoid conflict, because sometimes its too much and I need a normal day. It's no excuse.

I'm journaling now and recording as much as I can remember from the past 6 months. The same organization is provided me the counselors and the lawyers. I have mentioned the abuse to my counselor(s) and will go into full detail with the lawyer.

FF I am most likely about the change the relationship forever. I am going to need to detach (with love) to a large degree while I'm planning and remove some of the emotional supports. I have already been doing this to some degree and I think her ramping up the chaos is in response. There will be more chaos ahead, but I need to keep it at a level where I can still get to work and be able to survive at home. This means some friendly conversation and some appeasing (last night I said I was sorry I yelled, called myself a selfish a-hole, and bought her what she was craving that day to eat, just to buy myself enough space to get to work and get sleep).

The one question I am most deeply conflicted on now is whether to tell any of my family or friends to "share the burden" as BeagleGirl said. I so deeply want to as they all think I have the perfect life and having them with me on this to some degree would be such a relief. But I don't know if it would be stronger than the stress of keeping this a secret and the possible consequences. It may destroy any chance our relationship has of being saved one day. I don't know if it's worth the risk. I may need to at least bring in my father for help, either financial or flying across the world to help with the kids if things go the way I see them going. I really don't know on this one.    

~ROE

  

  

[JNChell]

Hi Roland. I’m so sorry that you’re experiencing this. I know and understand how you’re feeling. I hit my breaking point with my ex more than once. It was pretty horrific. I truly sympathize with what you’re going through. I wish I had some sound advice for you. Do you have friends or family that you can lean on? Whatever you decide, please put your own mental health and safety first. Please keep us updated and be kind to yourself, friend.

[RolandOfEld]

Do you have friends or family that you can lean on?

Thank you for your kind words, JNChell. I am sure my family would come to my support if I told them what's going on. It feels like it would be a huge relief to tell even just one of them how much I've suffered while all they saw were happy family pics / videos. I'm sure they would help out financially if needed, and it would be a dream come true if someone came over to help with the kids for a while if my wife moves out like I hope. If you don't know, I live in Asia, and my family is all in the US. It's not easy to get here but they've all more or less made the trip at some point.

But it might be a huge violation for her if she found out I told them. I know it's ridiculous to even care about that considering how she's violated every aspect of my life including my children's well-being, but below everything I want to leave the possibility of reconciliation on the table for some day. Am I still lost in the FOG to be still upholding this standard of not telling anyone besides counselors? What does everyone think from your experience?

ROE

[JNChell]

In my own personal experience, I kept her name safe for a long time for the same reason you have. I still had hope for the future. In those times she was badmouthing me to everyone, I came to find out. Since I have let go of that hope, I’ve told anyone that will listen how things were with us behind closed doors. I’ve gotten some validation by doing this. I also carry a great deal of shame after allowing her to continually re-enter my life with open arms after the abuses she doled out on me. That says a lot about me and my own mental state. I have a lot of work to do. I almost didn’t survive my ex, and it’s been grueling trying to navigate my way out of the rabbit hole that I willingly jumped in time after time.

Ultimately, it’s all up to you to decide what is best for you and your wellbeing. I truly sympathize with you. I understand your pain and the bewilderment of where the woman you love has gone.

[DaddyBear77]

Roland, first of all, wow - you've taken a huge first step just admitting this to yourself and on these boards. I'm sure this was very powerful for you and I truly commend you.  

I will share that for about 7 years I kept things secret from my family and friends. The thing that changed that for me was my wife's decision to separate. I immediately went to my parents and shared with them how difficult things were. They already suspected so much, but it wasn't until I got it into the open that I could start to heal. Opening up to them was the beginning of my healing process. I didn't "bad mouth" my wife, or engage in a lot of "she's so awful" kind of talk. I focused on myself ("I had a difficult time dealing with xyz behaviors." "I enabled a lot of this to continue", etc). This is what helped me heal. My brother and best friend wanted to bash, and I'll admit I gave in a couple of times, but I usually caught myself quickly, and in the future tried really hard to redirect or avoid triggering subjects.

Roland, you will need a lot of good, solid support as you continue down this path. You will need a lot of strength for both you and your children. As you move forward, make decisions that will increase the amount of positive, loving support you will gain in the pursuit of a better life for yourself and your children. This is the best advice I can give, and it's the advice I am giving myself as well.

We are here for you whenever you need us - you can do this!

[heartandwhole]

ROE,

I'm very sorry to hear the extent of how difficult this has been. I totally get your not wanting to talk to others—there are so many understandable reasons.

I agree with DaddyBear77, however. I think reaching out to trusted family and friends is the best thing you can do right now. You need support, now. Or the entire family is more at risk than it is already.

Start small, but let someone know what you are going through. There is more support out there than you know, and it will help. You can still keep the hope of reconciliation, but going it alone as you have been isn't working anymore, right?  

Skip always says that "sunshine is the best disinfectant." I think that is a good metaphor to think about.

We're here for you, all the way.

heartandwhole

[Speck]

ROE,

I'm so sorry you are going through this unbelievably tough time. You are so brave to have reached out to the board for answers and support, and that is a good step. I'm glad there is at least one place on this Earth that you can be candid about how you feel.

I just discovered your story tonight. It's very sad, and I am hoping that whatever you decide to do regarding separation, that it brings you great peace and healing.

Hang in there. I'm rooting for you.


-Speck

[I Am Redeemed]

ROE,

You are taking such a brave step with each post.  You have support here, and I am so proud of you for reaching out.

Dear all, thank you for your feedback over the weekend, which may truly save me and my children's lives.

I have hinted at the physical abuse on the board since I came on, but I am ashamed to admit I withheld on the extent both to protect my wife as well as my own failure to act. I hope everyone can forgive me for this. I have been and probably still am to some degree lost in the FOG. I am scared to admit how sick my wife is and very afraid to face what I have to do.

I wanted you to know I have done exactly that same thing, many times. In my case it cost me the custody of my oldest children. I only have S2 with me now. D10, D9, S6, S5, and D4 are in the guardianship of my sister. I am ashamed to admit that I still continued to protect my h, and still failed to act, still was in the FOG even after losing custody of my kids and seeing my h refuse treatment and continue the same destructive patterns. Finally I was forced to admit that if I did not leave and protect S2, I was at risk of losing him too. That gave me the courage to make the choice to go. However, I wish I had done it sooner. I am also ashamed to admit that I left S2 in the care of his father several times when I knew my uBPDh had used drugs, because I had to go to work and I did not know what else to do. I was paralyzed for a long time before I made a desperate decision one day that I was not going to continue putting S2 at risk nor suffering abuse myself. I have often wondered if I would be judged harshly if I told people how much I put up with and how I was frozen with indecision and knew that I should have done more, sooner, to protect my son. I just didn't know what to do, and I didn't have this website then, or a counselor. You have two great forms of support in bpdfamily and your T.

I would agree with Daddybear77 and heartandwhole about bringing in a trusted family member for support as well. It sounds like you know your father would help you; perhaps he would be the one to confide in first. I agree with starting small. Even just breaking the silence to one person in your family that you can trust can bring great relief.

I know you fear that your decisions might ruin a chance for reconciliation in the future. That is a product of the control your wife has exhibited over you, and a result of someone who has walked on eggshells for so long that he doesn't know how to start walking on solid ground. May I gently suggest to you that trying to make predictions about the future with only your wife's disordered thinking to use as a reference is not going to help you make good, healthy choices. You must be determined to make the right decision for you and your children. If your wife does enter treatment, and responds well to therapy, your disclosure to family may not seem like a violation to her anymore. But, if it does... .is it worth letting yourself or your children continue to be abused? Sometimes we just have to be committed to making choices regarding safety, even if we fear the unknown. Take it one day at a time. Try not to worry about months down the road. None of us know what the future holds. Just take baby steps and make progress at your own pace, and we will all be here to help you along the way.

This is a very big step you have taken. Several, actually. You have posted here and reached out in an anonymous, safe environment to "test the waters". Now you have opened up to your T. Maybe the next step would be telling a trusted family member. Being in an exhausting r/s drains so much mentally, emotionally and even physically.  It is too much to bear alone.

I send you encouragement, cheers, and hugs, ROE!    . Please remember that you are not alone. The world may not understand, but bpdfamily does. Thank God for this community.

Blessings and peace to you and your family, ROE.

Redeemed

[BeagleGirl]

RoE,
    I want to echo those applauding your courage.  Every step you take takes incredible strength.  None know how much better than those who have walked those steps before.
    Please know that we have all done things that we are incredibly ashamed of, myself included, and that allows us to extend grace and mercy to you.  Most of us have had that same grace and mercy extended to us and know the power of having someone look you in the eye, see all the ugliness we've done or allowed to happen, and still say they love and forgive us.  I know that the desire of your heart is to do that for your wife, and I pray that you will be given the opportunity to do that AND see restoration.  I would encourage you to hold that image in your heart but to not look that far ahead for the time being.  Now is the time to look at the next step you need to take and focus on taking that step.
    I'm also going to encourage you to do a little preparation before you take the step of revealing what's been going on to your family and friends.  As Daddybear alluded to, not every family member or friend is going to be equally equipped to help you down a healing path.  There will be some that are unsafe to share your experiences with either because they will focus on the past and revenge or refuse to believe you.  I would encourage you to let professionals or those with experience in this area guide you during this time.  Friends and family can be recruits in the battle ahead, but they probably aren't the best to call the shots.  It will probably also be helpful to focus their energy in constructive ways - making the substance, spousal, and child abuse the enemy, not your wife.  There should be people and places (like a counselor and bpdfamily) where you can fully voice the things your wife has done and the feelings you are dealing with that relate to her.  Once you establish those outlets, you can focus your communications with friends and family on more "need to know" facts about what is going on and HOW THEY CAN BEST SUPPORT YOU.  This is where I suggest focusing your preparation.
    What do they need to know?  They probably need to know that you have been hiding things that have been going on in your home.  They probably don't need to know details of what exactly has been happening.  They need to know that you have decided that the best way to address the issues that you've been hiding is to separate from your wife for a period of time.  If you will be taking legal action that will result in her being arrested or otherwise bringing authorities in to document what is going on, you should probably share that fact and relevant details around that such as what the charges will be or how long the treatment program lasts.  They need to know that your primary concern is to stop the bad things that were happening and provide a safe and loving environment for your children.  You can also share that, as long as it does not endanger your primary directive, you would also like to see your marriage restored.
    What can they do to help?  Probably the first thing to ask of them is that they respect your right to not share details or justify your past or present decisions.  There will be some who you can open this area up to, and there will be some who will trust and believe you immediately without a lot of explanation.  For the rest, having a statement like "After seeking professional counsel, this is what I have chosen to do.  I appreciate your support in doing this, but I'm not willing to discuss the situation at this time." can be really helpful. 
    I hate to say it, but you may find that some people won't be the support that you want and need.  I wish I had been a bit more prepared for that.  I also wish that I had learned earlier how to separate my need for approval from my confidence that I was making the right decision.  I still struggle with that.  I have a really good therapist and she continually reminds me that those who care to see the truth will see it. 
    So how can we help you? 
BG

[RolandOfEld]

Redeemed, DB, Speck, BeagleGirl thank you so much for sharing your experience regarding getting in touch with my family. It's given me hope and shown me where my priorities need to be, on saving myself in the present and not worrying so much about the future.

BG thanks for reminding me that it might not go the way I expect and to be prepared. I tend to think too positively and get shocked when things don't go the way I expect. I recently tried to get back in touch with my brother after not talking for over a year cuz of pressure from my wife. I thought he would welcome me back with open arms but the result is he won't respond to my calls or emails.

Redeemed thank you so much for sharing your own story so candidly. I don't think we should be hard on ourselves. What I really think it comes down to is having the right knowledge at the right time. I had known something was wrong for years but it wasn't until I saw it in the context of a mental illness that I was able to do anything.

I plan to get in touch with my dad first, not because we are in any way close (sometimes I think he might be on the autism spectrum), but because he is the one most in a position to help if I need it. At first the biggest help I will probably need is financial if there are high legal fees or if I need to put the kids in full time kindergarten or get a babysitter to help and its beyond my salary. If I do end up taking care of them alone, having someone here to help with the transition would be great, too. 

I will need support here in the coming weeks as I build my plan. I'm still waiting to hear from the the lawyer and thus far have no clue how to achieve the separation. Huge thanks to everyone for your help thus far.

~ROE