Avoiding JADE advice?

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone, I had this question at the end of another thread, and thought I'd rewrite it as a separate post. Here it is:
Wow guys,
Thank you for all of this great conversation! I've been off for a week, and am back since it's my H's work "weekend" (he's home 48 or more hours).

Thank you WW, fo Suggesting the Jaded link. I looked. I need this, and need a little help with it.

My H, uBPD, uN, possibly antisocial or higher, seems to instigate a JADE trigger for me. It's his favorite button of mine to push. I had figured out how to avoid it a little before our son arrived, but now that my S5 can talk and understand English, it's harder for me to avoid. He loves to make me give an answer for myself, or anything around the house, van, or other surroundings. He often negatively exaggerates a circumstance, and contributes it to my faults and shortcomings. It's bad. If I try to say, I'm not going to argue with you, he keeps escalating until he gets an answer... .And, if I successfully prevent entering into a string of baited arguments, he escalates the topic until it's unavoidable. It's a game to him.

The history of his diagnosis is, ODD & Adhd as a child, that was allowed to go untreated. His family does not talk about it. It seems to have grown into the adult version of that diagnosis... .conduct disorder, antisocial, and with the malicious covertness, hiding it from all others in public, I truly suspect he could be an actual psychopath. But he has this nonsensical logic to his ideas that sound borderline.

So, I say all that to ask, are there specific posts in the Jaded info that may help me avoid falling into that, since he's upping the anty with each bait? There's also the issue of my S5. I don't want him learning to exaggerate a crumb on the floor and learn misogynistic comments. I especially feel the need to correct, thereby falling into the JADE to correct my sons perception. (He's parroting and repeating my H's comments in these circumstances often). My H's comments are along the lines of, it's my right to hold you accountable for this because I'm male and you're to be submissive... .if you weren't such a faulty wife I wouldn't be having to get on your case"

I've tried a couple of things... .leaving the house to work on my online graduate school work, making plans with mothers and children's groups at local churches, anything to limit H's access to me and S5 during his 48 hours off, and at least limit access to me, preventing my S5 from seeing too much of it.

Any suggestions for breaking the JADE cycle once and for all? I truly suspect, this is what's learned and comfortable to him, to have a house with verbal chaos. His parents sound like Edith and Archie Bunker from All in the Family, that old tv sitcom.

Thanks everyone,
Dig.

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[pearlsw]

Hi Dig,

It can also help to validate the feelings. You show that you are listening, not insensitive to them, but you don't JADE. Sorry, my time is limited... .Can someone share the link please?

Can you describe the arguments more? What you each say?

warmly, pearl.

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi pearlsw,
I think you're right, validation may be a way out of some of these conversations, now that I think about how they usually go. The dialogue runs a little like this:
H sees something in the house, crumbs our S4 dropped on the floor, dishes in the sink from that day, or bananas on the counter, anything to suggest I've levy the house and gone to town while he was at work. Could also be where I've got a few projects going on at once: laundry, homeschool, pots and pans from making meals, etc. Then, H makes an exaggerated complaint, put down, or other negative y, with great contempt for me, that if I were a good wife, whatever it is, wouldn't be here. I've tried a few things in response: that's not true, please don't talk to me that way, that's an exaggeration, I'm not going to argue with you, could you say something nice, instead of complaining, etc.

It was much easier before or son came along. I could let his comments go and just consider the source, but now, my H greatly enjoys seeing our S4 repeat what he's said to me, and delivered with contempt as well. My S4 says that daddy says he needs him to be mean to mommy, to hate mommy. But that's another story, that seems to be progressing in s good direction.

I can see the value in not Jade-ing, but also wonder what my S4 needs to hear. Can I validate my H's unrealistically high expectations? It's the disgust and contempt in his voice, really, that's being communicated. Interestingly, the more I accomplish around the house, the worse his comments are? It's bizarre.

Dig.

[Radcliff]

Here's the JADE link.

To learn more about validation, take a look at this excellent page on how to validate and avoid being invalidating.

You may also want to look at this workshop on validation.

Dig, luckily, the best thing to do for you and your son are the same thing.  You do not want to appear to be in a weak position.  You don't want to strengthen your husband's position by defending yourself (oddly, when you defend yourself, it actually weakens your position, since you're saying your husband's position is strong enough that it requires a defense, and your defense isn't effective.)  Imagine playing a character in a movie.  The character you are playing, either to your husband or your son, is someone who is not thrown off course by bogus criticism, who validates feelings, but does not validate baloney (or salami, or mortadella, or any other cold cuts for that matter  ).  You are patient and firm.  You do not give a reaction to garbage.  S4 will mimic behavior of your husband if he gets a payoff for it.  You will not give him a payoff.  If your husband gives him a payoff, I'm guessing it might be a shared look, or something your husband says.  You can see that coming, and just fill the space with a distraction "Hey, S4, look at that squirrel outside!"

I've been having some trouble with my daughters, either modeling my wife's abusive behavior, or being teenagers, or both (it's hard to tell the difference between normal teenage daughter behavior and abuse  ).  My therapist has me reading, "Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach."  I'd highly recommend that you read it.  It's a big confidence booster to a parent, and it shows you how to avoid giving the child a big payoff in parental energy for doing something negative.  There are some other great strategies in the book.  A cool thing I like about it is that it gives tips for how to positively engage the child and give them attention when they are not doing something bad, rather than when they are doing something bad.  Definitely worth a read if you are feeling like you want some strategies for building parenting confidence, especially around respect issues.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, WW,
I will do some more reading and learning.  This is hard!  In the end, I may need help with coming up with things to say, and to practice saying them.  Like, if he says something thats not worth responding to, and I don't respond, he wants to know if I heard him.  So I say, yes, I heard you.  And then he demands a response, with, "Well, do you have anything to say"? I may answer him "no". This makes him madder. He keeps trying, with that topic or with another, but he escalates it. 

I used to leave the house, when he seemed determined to argue, before S4 came along.  But now, its happened a few times, that I've tried to leave the house with S in tow, and H freaks out and blocks that from happening.  It scared me so much, I called the police. But they couldn't do anything, with no custody agreement in place. So, leaving isn't an option anymore, when he is determined to argue.

I think if I practice some, and think through it, validation and avoiding Jade may help some, but in the end, I think he is only comfortable with an unpleasant home environment.  I think if he wins the argument in his mind, he feels in control, and is a valid man/husband/father, as he sees it.  If it's pleasant, he will do something to stir things, eventually.   

I used to keep a calendar of the cycles, before our S came along.  It's never pleasant for very long.

Dig.

[Radcliff]

Dig,

I know it's hard.  It's tiring.  It's discouraging.  I'm sorry

Putting this stuff into practice in the heat of things is really tough.  It's one thing to read it, but to figure out what to say on the fly, that's tough.  The thing to aim for is to eventually get practiced to the point that it's second nature, that you're not thinking on the fly.

One response that I've heard others suggest is something like, "I'll have to think about that," in an earnest tone of voice, not any tone that would raise their temper.  You're not committing to anything, but you're accepting that they've said something and you are not rejecting it.  You can also validate any feelings behind what he's said if you can figure them out.

I just thought of another resource you can read, by a psychologist named Craig Childress who's an expert on parental alienation.

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

That document was just referred to me by livednlearned, when I was asking for help with alienating behaviors by my wife.  Your H getting your son to mimic his bad behavior towards you is a form of parental alienation.  Childress' approach definitely seems like it could be helpful.  In my first read of the document today, I was thinking, "Wow, this is a lot to absorb and it'd take a while before I learned it well enough to actually make it work."  I'll probably have to read it several more times.  Don't think that anyone reads all this stuff and walks out there and starts acing it right away!

The part you said about not being able to leave the house with S4 bothers me.  That is a standard tactic to get some space from abusive behavior and to remove a child from it.  The part that particularly bothers me is that it sounds like the police effectively removed that tool from you by the way they handled the situation.  Keep in mind that the police don't always get it right.  Their training varies.  They make assumptions about a situation in the first few moments of contact that may affect how they handle it.  One thing you might consider doing is contacting a local domestic violence hotline or service in your area that knows local laws.  It may sound counterintuitive, but you can do this simply on a "for information, just to get educated basis."  Services like that are not just for physically violent situations.  I'm not suggesting that you go flying out the door at the first sign of trouble.  Working the tools and trying to de-escalate the situation is way better if you can do it effectively and safely.  But I am concerned that if you feel that the leave-the-home tool has been removed from you, and your situation further deteriorates (you get more worn out, he escalates, or both) you could end up in a tough spot.  While the situation is not more serious, and you have the energy and pep to check these things out, it might be worth a phone call to learn a bit.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, WW, for the validation! I got it, that was a good example of how to put that tool to use!

I am glad how the police handled that situation bothers you too, that normalizes that experience for me some.  After that incident, I made some serious changes.  I contacted our local women's shelter, and have been attending a weekly support group there.  They also have good childcare for that meeting, so I am able to take S4 with me.  It's ironic... .but my H thinks I am attending a weekly group in order to learn how to lead one myself.  The other change I made, was to figure out how to go to graduate school, online, with financial assistance.  It's even more ironic, the master's degree I am working on is in counseling, marriage and family therapy to be exact... .ha ha ha . I suppose, all of this experience, going to every marriage seminar and workshop, reading all the self-help books, and with a suspected serious personality disorder in the mix too, that perhaps I am being prepared to be a decent people helper. There's nothing like going through something in order to be able to help somebody else.

The link you sent, about parental alienation, is a good one I think.  The coordinator at women's group says that parental alienation is junk science.  The guy that did the most work in it (I forget his name) tried to have a syndrome added to the diagnostic and statistical manual, a child's diagnosis, as a result of parental alienation.  That backfired.  There is some of the language left to describe the behavior of a parent.  So, in the minute I looked at it, it seems one goal is to coach you to not trigger someone's idea of the term "parental alienation", since the term has such a history and differences in meaning.

I'm sorry you're dealing with the custody and court stuff; the idea of all of that scares me because there's no way of knowing or really determining the outcome. I like to know what the options are and how it could turn out before I do something.  Its odd, and terrible, but my H has a buddy that is coaching him into describing how I am the one not mentally stable.  The stereotype of a hysterical, emotional, crying female really is something to be reckoned with, as a woman myself.  It's almost as if I am not allowed to show any emotion at all, or else be labeled as such.  That feels unfair, and my H is counting on my emotional reaction to something mean he will say or do.  I try to keep my guard up, to know the bait is there, and he is waiting for me to become upset, just to try to prove something that's not true about me.  ugh.

Being set up to be recorded, having an emotional reaction to meanness by the uBPD, is really nuts to deal with.  It seems like the ultimate projection.  Someone once told me, no matter what he says, just pretend you're making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich... .no reaction.  He says something truly mean, just pretend it was peanut butter... .etc.  It seems to work sometimes, if I can see it coming. If not, sometimes I can switch gears in the middle of it.

I am guessing a lot of the tools here work better with a BPD that isn't quite to intentionally malicious and deceitful?  If one wants to succeed at the relationship that's one thing, but another all together if they're trying to tear it down on purpose.  Something neat I noticed though, since reading a lot of the workshops here... .if I approach him with the mindset that he is a bigger brother to my S4, and a child himself, and mind his emotions, there seems to be a bit more give and take to the conversation... .even though I feel like the lone parent.  I see from a lot of the threads here, others feel that way sometimes too, about parenting.

Best wishes this week.

Dig.

[Radcliff]

Dig,

Ha!  So you're already in touch with the right folks, already going to a group, and are working on a graduate degree.  That's awesome!

Yes, I think that while we want to be careful that we don't slide into contempt or disrespect, thinking of our pwBPD as children in some ways, and using some of our parenting behaviors can be a helpful mental model.  Kind of makes you cringe when you say it, doesn't it?  Proceed with caution, I suppose.  The most interesting part of Childress' document for me is the verbal jujitsu that he described.  It seems like perhaps this could be useful for a pwBPD as well.  Experiment carefully!

I hear you on the difficulties of being a woman and avoiding stereotypes.  I've thought a lot about that, since I've read a lot of literature that is heavy on women's experiences, but also feel like the abuse and control I suffered was heavily gendered as well (for example, threatening to report me for domestic violence, not allowing me to express any anger or frustration for fear of being made out to be violent, threatening to use female privilege to take the kids away).  I suppose the truth is that an abuser of any gender will look for any signs of weakness or control levers, and gender stereotypes are a prime tool.

Since you're going to be in grad school for counseling, and will be reading thick, dry books anyway, you might want to pick up "Coercive Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life," by Evan Stark.  It's very academic, and takes some determination to slog through, but it's incredibly thorough, and an important work.  It covers some pretty extreme situations, but also talks about things existing on a continuum.  It was helpful for me to read it to understand that the abuse in my relationship was so pervasive that it was a continuous experience, and there was a lot of coercive control going on.  But I also read of many things that go far beyond what I experienced.  A very important part of Stark's work is the fact that physical violence is a small part of abuse, and many times isn't present at all.  One of the things I was reading tonight (I'm still working my way through the book  ) was talking about women who are pursuing educations and are blocked by their husbands from doing so.  Social isolation, economic dependence, etc.  All of that can lead to serious entrapment.  So, it's great to hear that you are working hard on all of those fronts.

Back to that shelter you're working with, and the question of whether you can leave with S4 for a few hours against your husband's wishes, is there a veteran leader in the shelter organization that you can ask about that?

Hey, here's a thought for you about something you could do.  It would take a bit of moxie, but you seem to have plenty.  Walk into your local police station during regular business hours, when the senior guys are likely to be there.  Ask to see whoever the senior officer is who leads domestic violence training (I live in a small town, so there's only one place to go, not sure about where you live).  Then just say you're looking for advice on how to deal with things safely, and what their policies are for that sort of thing.  Hopefully you'd get a little better answer than just relying on an individual officer.

When I was starting to assert myself against my wife about violence from her against me, I was pretty worried that the police might arrest me just based on her word.  So I drove to our police station and asked to talk to someone for advice.  They sent out two beat cops, but they were professional and well trained.  Their professionalism gave me some confidence, and they also gave me the business card for a domestic violence advocate who was the first live human I really opened up to.  Just four days later, the police ended up having to come to our house.  I was pretty nervous, it was a first for us, but guess who came up our front walk.  You got it!  Those same two officers I'd talked to at the police station!  Talk about luck.  They had spent 15 minutes with me already and knew I wasn't a maniac.  Seeing the flash of recognition on their faces was neat, and they handled it well.  Sorry to bend your ear, but it's a cool story to me, and I suppose the moral is that spending a little bit of effort building a relationship with your police department in a calm time can pay off later.  If your DV agency is near where you live, they may even know who in the department would be good to speak to.  My DV advocate actually conducts training sessions for our police department, which is why they had her card.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi, WW,
Thank you for brainstorming with me, about getting some of my power back. I do need the ability to leave the house with my S4 if my h is acting scary.

Unfortunately, I am in a southern state, in the Deep South. Male privilege dominates here, especially in the law. Luckily, there was a shocking shift in political party in this state recently. I'm hoping that we will see some laws change in the future.

I have seen the dedicated DV detective, the shelter's top notch attorney, and they all say the same thing... .the laws in this state and legal precedent is not in a woman's favor. Especially with child custody. I know of at least 5 women who have lost their kids to their abuser here. Even the judges who see it, say their hands are tied to the laws.

So, I am learning to do what I can to de-escalate things when my H is disregulated... .the tools here are helping a little I think.

Although, he does make choices that are baffling, and don't match what the situation calls for. For the example, yesterday the weather was perfect! So I chose to forgo the housework and take my S4 hiking, for the first time. My H was home sleeping all day, after being up all night working. So, win-win, right? We make memories and he gets his sleep? Wrong. I discover today that he woke up while we were gone yesterday and began calling apartment rental offices, to find a place for him to move out, since I was going to choose to leave the house in such a shambles... .? Makes NO sense. He does seem to fish for making me upset, to see if I would be upset to lose him. The sooner I fold and cry, the sooner he stops upping the stressors.

So, his patterns include 1) extremely exaggerated criticism, served with thick contempt, 2) pulling apart, testing events, where he seems to want to make me cry, and 3) making me give an answer for myself, about everything... .from something that fell on the floor to tiny fast food receipts.

I have got to learn how to answer him, when he is demanding that I answer for myself. Something that scratches his itch for control, yet keeps my dignity. If he doesn't get that control piece, I end up with escalation like him calling realtors... .

I'm glad you shared your story about the police... .that was fortunate.

Dig.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Dig,

I don't know if we have talked before. Nice to meet you.

Your husband sounds eerily similar to mine. The control, the Dominant/Submissive defining roles, the criticism about the house... .when I was pregnant with my fourth child, I exhausted myself cleaning every room in the house every day to try and avoid his comments about how I "didn't clean the house." It did no good. I mopped every single day, only to hear him accuse me of "spot mopping." I was told that I should vacuum every other day at least (I was vacuuming every day.) I had every dish washed, put up the toys 500 times a day so he wouldn't complain, cleaned both bathrooms, swept, mopped, all that... .and he pointed out that the top of the refrigerator had not been cleaned or organized (?). He compared me to all the pregnant women in the world who were doing so much more than me and accused me of using my pregnancy as an excuse to be lazy. This from a man who would not wake himself up for work nor even get his own work clothes out of the closet.

Once I accidentally locked myself out of the house and spent 30 minutes trying to contact the landlord with a spare key before I finally used a tool from the trunk of the car to break in my own house. I had to pick up kids from school and didn't have time to figure out anything else. His response? "Why didn't you take the trash can to the side of the road while you were out there? You know it's trash day tomorrow."

What?

My h also would demand I respond or answer for whatever perceived misdeed I had committed. I never found a good way to answer or avoid the conflict. Sometimes these escalations turned into violence. I eventually did have to separate from him. Incidentally, I am also in the South, and I found that women are not empowered here at all. In fact, we are judged harshly for experiencing abuse. I had custody of my older children taken away from me because of my h's abusive treatment. This was after I had made two attempts to leave where I went to the local DV shelter, only to be dumped off at the local homeless shelter for women where I was treated like a drug addict in rehab and told that I wouldn't be in this situation if I knew Jesus.

I know Jesus, and He told me they were full of baloney.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but in regards to you "folding and crying"... .what happens if you call his bluff on these threats to move out since you are "not taking care of the house." (If I had a dollar for every time I heard that crap... .) Or other such threats. Something I learned about a person who needs control is that they never get the "control itch" scratched. If it's not one thing it's another, and he will feed off your responses to his behavior. It's like a game, but you are set up to lose every time. He will keep playing to see "how much you love him" and anything that does not meet his unrealistic expectations will be used as proof that you do not love him (or are not loyal and completely devoted to him and basically make your whole life revolve around him and his needs, desires, opinions, etc.) Does this sound like what you experience? What happens if you don't give him the desired "Push-Button" emotional response?

Also, do you think the fact that he woke up and found you gone was in itself a "trigger"? I had the same experience with my uBPDh. He would freak out and dysregulate if I went to the dollar store while he was asleep. But then, also... .if I didn't go to the store while he was asleep so he wouldn't freak out and rage, then he would blame and criticize me for having the time to go to the store and not doing it, therefore I was not taking care of the household- which apparently was my Designated Life Purpose.

Anyway,

Hope it gets better for you and S4. I totally feel for you, bc it can be really stressful. Congrats on the graduate school, though! that's awesome

Blessings and peace to you,

I Am Redeemed

[Radcliff]

I know Jesus, and He told me they were full of baloney.

Redeemed, that quote is a thing of beauty.  Nice work.  You knocked it out of the park with that one! 

Also, I think Redeemed has great advice, particularly about the control itch never getting scratched enough, so it's a losing battle.

Dig, I did a lot to keep the peace.  A lot of it was good.  Validating and being very patient in conversations could save us from a meltdown.  But it was never enough.  It was impossible for me to prevent violence indefinitely.  I could defer it or save things sometimes, but the situation continued to get worse.  I lost more and more of myself as I continued to bend like a pretzel.  I'm not saying it's inevitable.  Perhaps with the right amount of assertiveness, a particular situation with a particular person could stabilize, but be careful.  Of course, I know you know this.  You each time I think you're on the ball you surprise me with even more proactive steps that you've taken.  You really have done your homework.  You'll be teaching this stuff someday soon, if you aren't already.

One of the strategies described in that Evan Stark book that women use to cope is to establish "zones of control," where they can continue to operate freely.  They take classes, they go on hikes with the kids, they meet friends regularly.  In really severe situations these "zones of control" can be very small -- as simple as lingering outside while taking the garbage out, or cleaning the house just a little differently, the way they want, but even small zones of control can help.  An important thing to watch for is how an abusive person responds when these zones of control are discovered.  If they double down and act aggressively to eliminate them, that is a bad sign for where things are headed in the future.  If the woman acts assertively against abuse, and they double down, that's also bad.  You probably know all of this already.

I appreciated reading about the work you've done to understand the situation in your state.  I live in a liberal state with very progressive laws, for which I've been grateful.  You are in a tough spot.  Your story, and the ways you will adapt to your particular circumstances, will be very helpful to others in your situation, so please continue to share.

Hey, one final thought.  You mentioned that laws in your state are tough.  Many women you know have lost their children to their abuser.  Sometimes, someone has a story that bucks the trend.  There must be success stories in your state.  Have you located any?  Can you learn what combination of factors allowed things to go better for them?  (If I know you, you've already done this homework, and you're gonna say, "Yes, Wentworth, there are four success stories that I've found so far, and they are all in a liberal county 100 miles away from here."  )

WW

[Radcliff]

Hey Dig,

I was talking to a DV person today who has Southern roots, and mentioned that I felt lucky to be a guy in a liberal state after you described women losing their kids to their abusers down there.  She suggested that you look up the Collin County Council on Family Violence as a benchmark for what can be done down South.  I know that state laws vary, so local organization doesn't help immediately with state laws if you are not in Texas, but local work certainly can provide a lobbying base and a way to educate legislators.  Here's the Web site:

https://cccfv.com/

I took a quick look at it, and was impressed just by the Home page.  My down-to-earth straight-talking DV person said it was started by The Junior League, which she referred to as "a bunch of rich ladies in sweaters and white pearls who can do a lot of good when they set their minds to it."  They bring together victim advocates, prosecutors, pastors, social workers, and many other stakeholders to develop coordinated approaches to family violence challenges.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,
Thank you for all of the resources! I have been out of town with spring break, and thankfully, have one more week with no uBPDh and my parents will be visiting. So, I will be scarce on the boards. I wanted to write a quick note, just to say, I'm here! I'm just having a long week of rest and relief!

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

Just a quick few thoughts... .
The zones of control concept is totally in full swing here, and I do have a dangerous person seeking them out to squash. It's hard to keep one hidden, but I still have a few areas of relief!

Yes, there are success stories all around me. However, the common trait is the abusive person is truly, obviously not a healthy or well person. Think, substances, addiction, arrests. Not much history of being a functioning member of society.
That's where my story is different. My uBPDh holds down an enviable and highly respected job in the community, and hides his behaviors well, and on purpose. It is a choice he makes. And... .it's viewed very much in this area, that if a wife can't please her husband, with his decent salary and her being "kept" (not having to work, living a life of leisure/privilege) that there's something wrong with her.

That's a bunch of baloney too. I'm living in the most beautiful "prison" I can imagine. But, this week, my glass is going to be full, no worries!

There would have to be some serious legislation changes here and legal precedent set. Maybe with a new senate person, that can start to happen.

Dig

[Dignity&Strength]

I'm still here! Sorry for the multiple posts. My S4 is sleeping longer than I expected.
WW, I'm sorry to be predictable, but we do have a large junior league here, they do wear pearls, and there are a few in my friends list. They helped make Safeplace, where they do batterer education, and victims services.

Wait for it... .my uBPDh is not allowed to attend the peace program. I've begged them. He has to be court ordered to go. I'd have to press charges, even though he hasnt hit me.

I'm not allowed to benefit from their services either, because I still live with my "abuser".
Truly, you all here are my last link to help at this point!

Ah... S4 is awake!

Dig.

[Radcliff]

WW, I'm sorry to be predictable, but we do have a large junior league here, they do wear pearls, and there are a few in my friends list. They helped make Safeplace, where they do batterer education, and victims services.

Excellent, glad to hear that the Southern Pearl Brigade is on the march in your area!

Wait for it... .my uBPDh is not allowed to attend the peace program. I've begged them. He has to be court ordered to go. I'd have to press charges, even though he hasnt hit me.

Got it.  Makes sense, oddly.  I went through this with my wife.  I interviewed a few batterer's programs before the restraining order.  They do not like volunteers.  In particular, volunteers are forbidden in our 16 week program, because abusers would try to volunteer for the 16 week program before the hammer comes down, to pretty themselves up to avoid the 52 week program.  It can be unfortunate for a genuine volunteer, though.

In our area, batterer's programs can be mandated either by the criminal court, or by the family court.  I quickly realized that I wanted to go through family court, which does not require an arrest or even a police report.

Hey, let me know if you decide to read that Evan Stark book.  I'd be curious to hear what you think of it.  Books like that, I would order on Kindle and download to my iPhone.  Depends on whether you have control of the credit cards, and a secure phone that's passcode protected.

If your husband is not hitting you, that puts you in a tight spot.  Unfortunately, that's the big thing that everyone recognizes, but coercive control is actually worse.  As things were coming to a head last fall, my worst nightmare was that my wife would stop the physical violence and double down on coercive control, staying away from things she could get in legal trouble for.

You referred to your husband as "dangerous."  What tactics does he use?

I'm not allowed to benefit from their services either, because I still live with my "abuser".
Truly, you all here are my last link to help at this point!

  I am so sorry!  Eegads, that is like a twenty year-old way to do things!  Maybe you can get your Junior League to talk to the Collin County Junior League.  Seriously, benchmarking within an organization could actually work.  Wow, that is disappointing, I'm sorry.  Leaving is not simple, especially if you are disadvantaged by the laws!

You mentioned in an earlier post that your husband has a great job and is respected in the community.  This is not an uncommon situation at all.  Sadly, this is a very very tough situation.  Feeling like you are the only one who has a problem with your spouse is crazymaking, and so isolating.

OK, let us know about your husband's tactics if you're willing to.  We can't fix it, but I'm hoping that sharing will give you some validation and support.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Thank you, so much WW.

The book is on my wish list, and I know it will be helpful. I still have access to some funds, and my grad school refund arrives this spring. He doesn't have access to that.

Validation, problem solving and support have helped me to self-care through the chaos. This is probably common, but I had hoped maybe all of those skills would somehow help me alter my own part of the relationship enough to have a causal effect in his own values. It has not. Of course, years ago, well meaning counselors told me, very quickly, that this would be the case. I had to try. I like myself for trying. Not giving up on your spouse and giving it your all is an admirable cause.

If I'm honest with myself, I am surviving until the conditions are met so that the laws here don't jump up to bite me. For example, just this past January, legislation was passed that gives family court judges the option to decide to award retirement alimony, if the marriage has not been at least 10 years. I am one year away, as this next week makes 9. But, an attorney advised me last week, even though the judges legally can, there is no precedent set, so they will do what they have always done... .Award 3 years rehabilitative support to the wife unless the 10 year anniversary has happened. Ugh... .and at the same time, I'm ok with that, because I don't really want to give up.

His "dangerous" behaviors... .well, that's where his qualities line up with antisocial personality disorder, even slightly rising above sociopath to psychopath according the DSM-IV criteria. Here he is, generally:

1) no empathy for anybody, not even himself
2) lying, consistently and very well about the tactics and actions he has done towards me
3) he said, in July 2013, "nobody you ever tell about how I treat you will ever believe you, because I can control my emotions and you can't" (he took off his mask completely there and it gave me chills)
4) I wear a tiny audio recorder, at all times, to combat #3.
5) that recorder has caught one threat to kill me (which he laughed off as just kidding), one statement that "I make him want to kill himself so that S4 and I could live a better life", and multiple discussions, threats to spank S4. Incidentally, #'s 1&2 can get me out of here, but not S4, and I don't have proof that has harmed s4. Without that, in my state, there's equal joint custody. I am literally putting myself through this (staying) to protect S4 from having to be alone with uBPDh. I never leave them alone except in between meals sometimes.
6) veiled threats, that could easily be explained away. For example, the poem, the walrus and the carpenter from alice in wonderland, and the lyrics to frank Zappa song, "I'm so cute". He has taught some of those lines to S4.
7) his friend, who also did this to his wife, mailed a veiled threat to the house. It was a package of souvenirs from a railroad museum. There was a hobo symbol  bandana, that clearly in the center was screen printed the words "target, easy mark" and "man with a gun", among the rest of the hobo symbols print. Across the top of the package, in red permanent ink, his buddy had written, "I know how this will be used".
8) The past 2 summers S4 and I have gone to my parents house, 16 hours away for 6-8 weeks, something bad has happened to my cat. This last time he almost died.

Goodness... .I think our minds have a way of protecting us by helping us forget trauma. Listening to myself here, perhaps it's time to use this week alone with my parents help to get s4 and I away from here, 10 years, or not... That's another topic for another board. I am always, daily, evaluating the cost of staying. Those are emotional just as much as financial.

WW, your post about the zones mentions someone who is dangerous. It's a constant debate I have with myself, IS he truly dangerous, or can I tread water through this and safely stay until I'm logistically ready to go?

The zones book is on my list. My gut says, it will help me a little, but nothing can stop whatever made my H this way. I think, from a neurobiological standpoint, he is 43, this is permanent. The plasticity is gone.

And here I go to once again, today, decide to build this house or tear it down. I'll bet a lot of members here do that al the time.

I know that if I stay, the validating, avoiding JADE, and other tools will help me keep S4 and I safer until we go.  I DO have exits planned out of the house, van, keys, etc. all set up ready to go. Have lived this way, on high alert, for at least 3 years. Now, if there's a thread somewhere about getting our bodies out of fight or flight mode, while still living in it, I'd love to find it!

Thank you for staying with my long post, if you made it this far. My therapist weighs in with the opinion that I should flee to Canada or Mexico, . But that's not possible, and that's not me. Thank you all, for helping. It IS a tight spot we're in here. All of the dangerous list above, law enforcement and attorneys have said, I am putting myself at risk for being deemed histrionic if I act on just the list above. My uBPDh seems to know the line of the law, and carefully, maliciously and with intent, walks up to it, spits across it, and dares me to do anything about it.

Dig.

Dig.

[Radcliff]

It's the disgust and contempt in his voice, really, that's being communicated. Interestingly, the more I accomplish around the house, the worse his comments are? It's bizarre.

I am reading this in a new light now, after reading through your thread a second time.  This is not about how clean the house is.  It is about power and control.  The cleaner you keep the house, the more competent you appear.  Your competence is a threat to him.

The zones book is on my list. My gut says, it will help me a little, but nothing can stop whatever made my H this way.

That book, "Coercion and Control: How Men Entrap Women in Personal Life," is not a self help book.  It is more of a summary of that researcher's life's work, Stark has literally "written the book" on coercive control.  His work underlies the batterer's treatment programs in our state.  This is why "anger management" classes are no longer seen as adequate for domestic violence, because they do not get at power and control issues.  The book would help you assess the situation, though frankly your assessment seems accurate.  You probably have done enough research to know that your situation is a textbook case of power and control.

Speaking of power and control, I imagine you've already seen the Power and Control Wheel?  It's shown in this page on abuse defined.

nothing can stop whatever made my H this way.  I think, from a neurobiological standpoint, he is 43, this is permanent. The plasticity is gone.

Everything I have read and heard supports your view.

Dig, that is some list.  I won't call out the most worrisome items.  You know which ones they are.  I am so sorry you're in such a tight spot.

Have you ever taken the MOSAIC threat assessment?  I took it a while back, and it was educational just to see what questions were asked.  If you take it, let us know your score if you're willing to share.

It IS a tight spot we're in here. All of the dangerous list above, law enforcement and attorneys have said, I am putting myself at risk for being deemed histrionic if I act on just the list above. My uBPDh seems to know the line of the law, and carefully, maliciously and with intent, walks up to it, spits across it, and dares me to do anything about it.

I am sorry you have to live this way.  It is like a perfect storm of his behaviors and system/society weaknesses.  Your measured and careful approach is anything but histrionic.  I cannot imagine anyone performing any better in a similar situation.

You mentioned the possibility that you may want to leave to get safe before waiting for the 10 year mark, and worry less about finances.  You are right to put safety first.  But leaving is one of the most dangerous times.  If you focus entirely on leaving safely, you may hit the 10 year mark before you are ready anyway [bpdfamily disclaimer, this is not a run message, you're the decider, but given that we're talking about a dangerous situation, I'm playing by DV rules here].

You mentioned that the victim assistance resources there won't help you if you are living with your abuser.  Will they help you plan to leave?  Are they informed enough to understand how dangerous your situation is, or do they need to see a black eye?  Are they solid enough to handle what you're bringing?  You need someone who has experience with getting people safe from highly intelligent abusers who can avoid getting caught.  Someone who is a match for your husband.  Someone special.  Have you found that person yet?

Have lived this way, on high alert, for at least 3 years. Now, if there's a thread somewhere about getting our bodies out of fight or flight mode, while still living in it, I'd love to find it!

So how are you doing day-to-day?  Are you having high levels of anxiety, acute physical symptoms, that sort of thing?  I wouldn't be surprised if you are, and I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't.

Have you practiced any meditation?

Are you able to do aerobic exercise?

WW

p.s.  One last line of questions -- Over the course of your relationship, how did the intensity of the behaviors ramp up?  Did they ramp steadily, all at once three years ago, or in a few jumps?  Have things been steady or worsening in the last year?

 

[Radcliff]

Hi Dig,

I was talking to my DV advocate on another matter, and asked if she knew of any books that covered coercive control but were more likely to offer practical coping tips than Erik Stark's more academic book.  She recommended:

"Invisible Chains:  Overcoming Coercive Control in Your Intimate Relationship," by Lisa Aronson Fontes

She also recommended:

"Healing from Invisible Abuse," by Shannon Thomas

She also mentioned three Lundy Bancroft books with which you may already be familiar:  "Why Does He Do That?", "The Batterer As Parent," and "When Dad Hits Mom."

She reminded me that just having these books in your home is a security risk, and mentioned that it can be good to have a second, low-tech emergency cell phone that does not use WiFi in the house.  Are you squared away on computer and phone security?  Do you believe your husband is likely to be monitoring computer and phone use?

I kept books like these on my phone's Kindle App, purchased with a secret account, which saved me the risk of having to hide paper books, but did risk discovery if my wife snooped through my phone.

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi, WW,
Thank you, so much. I’ll be predictable again, first. Golly, I must be hard to listen to. I already have Lundy Bancroft, why does he do that and the batterer as parent, both on kindle where he can’t find them. I also have incest, a mother’s worst nightmare, because it gives custody advice and issues that are common in the south.
Pleas, take heart! There are more resources that you recommend that I haven’t read or heard of than those that I have! Bless you! You are a tremendous help.

I need to start a thread in the legal advice custody group. I am
Making those kinds of decisions and crossroads at this point, today especially.

The behaviors flipped like a switch the day after our wedding. Ugly comments from him. However, in hindsight, there were tiny clues before then.

The ramping up part occurs with more responsibility added to him... .like a house instead of an apartment, and becoming parents. That last one really did it. We haven’t recovered from it. It is classic control. Also, I believe I am his cover. I think he may be gay. I am his way of seeming normal. He is extremely feminine, and has never had any interest in me. I am a trophy that is never noticed or paid any attention to.

Thank you, for all of this. I will write more later. For now, I need to follow my values, and enjoy my precious time with my S4 and parents78, with no uBPDh. Enjoy rather than flee and pack. Peace instead of chaos.

Dig

[Radcliff]

Dig, you are not hard to listen to.  If you are a step or three ahead of me, that's fantastic.
Stark actually mentions enforced gender roles with coercive control as a cover for homoeroticism at one point in his book.  The more traditional feminine roles are forced on you, the more masculine he appears.  I am not telling you anything you don't know, though.

Enjoy the glorious peace and family time with your parents and S4!

WW

[Dignity&Strength]

Hi everyone,

Well chaos has been constant, unfortunately. My H has taken my wallet. I think his controlling behaviors are escalating, as if he needs a higher level of control, more and more to feel ok. I did start the Mosaic threat assessment back this fall, but never finished it. I need to go back and do that.

I am thinking that he took my wallet just to see what cards, receipts and such I have. I think he would need this to prepare for divorce. A  mean and cruel friend of his is talking him through it. I think my phone maybe next, or maybe my van keys.

Anybody have experience with getting missing items back? If it’s about control, won’t searchimgnfor them and being upset that they are are gone provide that?
He always seems to relent and be soothed after he has succeeded in making me very upset. Or, should be nonchalant, mildly concerned, and confident it will turn up?

Dig

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Dig,

Taking items from you is a classic "abuser" behavior. My uBPDh frequently took my money, debit card, keys, car, and sometimes even would hide my cigarettes when he was angry or just trying to be petty and vindictive. Once he even took my shoes so I could not put them on and leave the house. I do believe it gave him a soothing effect and I always got the items back eventually (unless he spent the money, which happened a lot.) I think it really satisfied his need to control when I got upset, because it wasn't just about controlling the tangible, physical items- it was about hurting me through my emotions. The goal was to get me upset, hurt, angry, anxious, all of the above.

I would suggest trying to get duplicates of all forms of ID, making and hiding spare sets of keys, some cash and other essential personal items and maybe even a cheap pre-paid cell phone with important contacts already programmed into it (don't forget a charger as well.) He probably feels that you are helpless if he takes these items away from you, and he also feels as though he has the right to do that. He is treating you like you are "less than". He does not acknowledge that you have any rights.

I suspect that if he does not get the expected frantic, hurt, upset, etc. emotional reaction from you that it possibly would make him turn up the control level. It will probably arouse suspicion in him as to why you are not upset.

In my experience, the controlling behaviors do continue to escalate. For my r/s, the next step was physical abuse. Not saying that will be the case with you, but just be careful.

We are here for you Dig. I sincerely hope things get better for you. Proverbs 31:25; she can laugh at the days to come.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Dignity&Strength]

Oh thank you!
Redeemed, that is beautifully said. Your words mean a lot to me. I agree, I if I show the crying and just allow my emotions, he will escalate until he gets it. Did yours ever admit to taking it? Mine is denying.

Here’s a little of why I’m not leaving just yet... if you’re interested.
Thank you, so much for your support!

In my state, the law has just changed in January regarding retirement funds and alimony. The 10 year anniversary is the holy grail. Tomorrow makes 9 years. The judges now have the choice to award retirement alimony, at their discretion, but there is no legal precedent since the law is so new. So, I am going to try to de escalate things for another year. Railroad retirement is a big deal. I’m legally entitled to half of it, one year from tomorrow. I haven’t worked in 9 years but am halfway finished with my masters degree.  I  have to complete my masters, that involves a 9 month unpaid internship, so I don’t owe the government for my school loans without the good salary to pay it back. Ironically, it’s a MA in marriage and family counseling... .

Keeping it between the ditches here... .
Dig

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Dig,

Sometimes uBPDh would hide things after we had an argument (which basically means after he had raged at me and done something abusive) because he was afraid I was going to leave him. He would deny doing it or s ay that he put something up because the one of the kids had it and he just forgot that he had done that. For instance, after a particularly bad fight in which he had punched me and knocked me into a table, he hid my keys under the mattress the next morning. Only after I walked to his work in the snow with two kids and a baby in tow did he "remember" that the keys were under the mattress, and he claimed that he stuffed them there because the four-year-old was playing with them. Later, his memory of this event became distorted and he claimed that I was lying about the whole incident, including needing the keys to take D4 to school because he said there was no school since it had snowed (there was, indeed, school that day.)

Most of the time, however, he just blatantly took or destroyed my personal items and pretty much just challenged me to do anything about it, because he could always "win" with physical force. It was extremely humiliating and tore down my self-esteem effectively.

Proverbs 31 is one of my favorites. I knew immediately when I saw your username that it came from verse 25.

Last fall, during the time my uBPDh had relapsed on drugs and was becoming increasingly psychotic and abusive, I really thought that I might go crazy because my life was so unpredictable and so unstable. I never knew if I would be able to go to work, go to the store, clean the house, take care of S2- normal activities that anyone else would take for granted were not a "sure thing" in my chaotic world. UBPDh was so erratic. He might fly into a rage at the last minute before I had to work and then I would either be late or not get to go at all. He might decide that he couldn't "stand for me to be behind him" as he sat at the kitchen table and I attempted to clean the kitchen.
I had no idea what was going to happen, but I prayed and prayed and read Scripture. Psalms and Proverbs were some of my greatest comforts during this time.

One day, when I actually did get to leave for work, I encountered a storm brewing on the Interstate as I came into town. The clouds were very dark and threatened at any minute to unleash their fury. The wind became harsh and extremely strong, and it battered the sides of the car. There was already leaves and other debris swirling in the air. It was quite a terrifying sight to see myself headed straight into the massive storm that was brewing. Just as the rain broke and began to beat down, I suddenly had Proverbs 31:25 come into my mind. "She is clothed with strength and dignity; she can laugh at the days to come." And in the middle of that storm, I started to laugh. It was as if God had spoken it straight into my spirit. My life at that time was just as unpredictable and frightening as the actual storm I was driving straight into, yet God reminded me that I had nothing to fear. I eventually had to pull off the interstate and wait out the rain because I could not see to drive. I had to follow the taillights of the car in front of me just to find the off ramp. But God guided me and kept me safe until the worst of the storm passed and I could see to proceed to my destination. And I knew then that He would do that for me in all situations, not just literal storms... .and He has, because He is faithful and His love never fails.

I have all confidence and faith that He will do that for you and S4 too.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed