Son-in-Law trying to set boundaries to protect the kids and I’m in the middle

[luvsnotenough]

Hello everyone thank you for providing a place to talk because I really need to.  My adult daughter has been diagnosed with BPD. She has not owned this diagnoses and it enrages her. She has moved out of her home that she has shared with her husband of 18 years.  He, my sil, has been trying to set boundaries to protect the kids from moms behavior and I am in the middle. I can't believe this is real.  before I go into the story, can anyone give me any insight into the setting boundaries thing? My sil insisted she move out if she would not own diagnosis and agree to work on together on it. This he says was to protect the kids from drama, rages and  instability.  It was his last straw.  He felt if they could all get a few days peace and if my D could experience what life was actually like w/o sil and intact family, maybe she would be willing to own it and begin to work on it.  :)oes that make sense to anyone.  She is living within steps of their home and he has helped set up the household and they each have 3.5 days with kids.  
Of course there is a lot more to this... .but that is a small nutshell.  THANK YOU!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Mutt]

Hi luvsnotenough,



I'm sorry that you're family are going through a difficult time and it's heartbreaking when there are kids involved.

I'm sorry that your family is going through a difficult time it's natrual to want to protect the kids in the family and it's heartbreaking when a family member with issues simply doesn't own up to them. Many of us here had no boundaries or floating boundaries and when you implement boundaries expect lashing out at the onset there's an adjustment period.

A pwBPD will know what they were exposed to while growing up it's their benchmark in life what they know is normal to them they don't realize that their behaviours are harmful to others now imagine if you were told that you're mentally ill - how would you react? Remember that this is her reality and she doesn't think that she's mentally ill she's told that she has one of the worst mental illness's possible at that.

What is more acceptable in society is depression and anxiety it doesn't carry the same stigma that BPD does most pwBPD will have an underlying clinical depression depressions want to treat these symptoms because it will mellow out BPD traits, you could suggest that you think that she may be suffering from depression and anxiety and maybe she'll go and see someone and that could be the catalyst for her to get help.

The other issue is r/s's r/s' are between two people if you're dirty laundry is aired out by external circumstances you'll probably lash out. I'd have a problem if someone was trying to get into my affairs with my gf because it's not their business. I understand that you and SIL are looking at bigger picture stuff and want help for the kids. Did SIL reach out and ask for help?

[luvsnotenough]

Thank you Mutt for your welcome and wisdom.  I appreciate it so much!  My D has been diagnosed with GAD a couple years ago while in therapy.  Then SIL was brought in to therapy as well, things were painted a more realistic picture with his input... .and a book was suggested to him a while later.  "Stop walking on eggshells"  Several more sessions, Diagnosis changed to BPD. No more sessions, refusing to go back.  I understand how scary and demoralizing this is for her.  She also has Type 1 Diabetes, since childhood.  Always very emotional, never seemed to get enough attention, also has eating disorder.  I have watched for 20 years my SIL take tender loving care of her... .she was treated like a princess literally.  Always trying to give her more and more... .nothing though makes her happy for long. She is exhausting, to everyone.  No one in our family will cross her... .for fear of a blow up. 
 Yes, my SIL did ask for input.  They do not live near me, another state.  I talk to him to find out how she is doing.  I get normal hope filled convo from him, I get rant and rave from her about him.  Am I wrong to listen to him?  I have to know how the GRkids are doing?  He has always been a wonderful father, and my D has been a good mom, but things have ramped up last year so much.  My D is funny and loving and so smart, life of the party... .I just don't know where that person is now.

[luvsnotenough]

excuse my ignorance, what is pwBPD? and the r/s's?  thx

[Mutt]

I talk to him to find out how she is doing.  I get normal hope filled convo from him, I get rant and rave from her about him.  Am I wrong to listen to him?  I have to know how the GRkids are doing?  

You're not wrong to listen to him, I'd be aware of triangles you, him and your D make three not all triangles are bad but a pwBPD are in the dramatic cluster for personality disorders this is an excellent article on drama triangles https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

pwBPD means person with BPD and r/s means relationship there is a glossary tab at the top of the board https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=26601.0

[luvsnotenough]

Thanks Mutt, I'm reading that article... .helpful for sure.  The funny thing is my D is studying to be a therapist. 

[Feeling Better]

Hi luvsnotenough,

I just want to say how lucky your SIL is to have you there supporting him and also your daughter. It must be a trying time for all of you. As Mutt says, your daughter is probably in denial, nobody wants to deal with that kind of diagnosis. It sounds like your daughter might need a bit more time to process what’s been said to her but unfortunately there still won’t be a guarantee that she will accept the diagnosis. How long ago did she get her diagnosis, was it quite recently?

Can I ask you how old your grand kids are?

You asked about boundaries, they are designed to be put in place to protect us and our own core values. There is a link to the right  under the Tools heading, “Communicate Boundaries & Limits”, you might find that helpful.

[luvsnotenough]

Thank you FB.  I appreciate what you said.  I kinda am struggling with being there for both of them, although I tend to mostly text my D, to save the drama.  When I speak with her she rants and then I feel guilty for not confronting her, that's not the right word, I wouldn't be unkind for sure.  But the twisting of things... .if I call her on it she will flip as you all probably have experienced. 
  She was Diagnosed a couple months ago.  Pretty much only reaching out to anyone who will agree with her, but not me or most of the rest of her fam.  Listening to people who don't really know her past.  So frustrating.  I'm guessing she will burn through those friends because the level of attention she needs is astronomical. 

  I'm asking for any advice on speaking with her... .

[luvsnotenough]

also, my grkids are 16, 12 and 6. 

[Feeling Better]

quote luvsnotenough
Thank you FB.  I appreciate what you said.  I kinda am struggling with being there for both of them, although I tend to mostly text my D, to save the drama.  When I speak with her she rants and then I feel guilty for not confronting her, that's not the right word, I wouldn't be unkind for sure. 

I think we all here know that you wouldn’t be unkind luvsnotenough, you obviously love your D and SIL very much. It’s really hard though when our pwBPD is ranting at us, we just want to justify and defend ourselves but when we do that it only makes matters worse. Have you read about validation? I have gone over lots of conversations in my head that I’ve had with my uBPD son in the past and when I replay them I can see how invalidating I was. I can also now see what I should have said that would have validated his feelings. Validation is a really good tool to use when communicating with someone with BPD. You will find the link on the right.  . . There is also an excellent video on validation, I am sure you will find it most useful.

[ArleighBurke]

A BPD feels to their core that they are not good enough – ever. You would think that being formally diagnosed would give them a “reason” and allow them to feel better – but it does not. It seems to “prove” to them that they are broken. And they have a very hard time accepting it.

I also suggest you read about validation. Your daughter experiences very strong EMOTIONS. These are not her choice. These emotions get triggered by things/events that non-BPD people would not find triggering, but she does. Validation is the art of not looking at the CAUSE of the emotion – it is largely irrelevant – but instead you focus on the emotion itself. Try to understand what having that emotion would feel like. Ignore the fact that the reason her emotion exists is “stupid” – just focus on the actual emotion and empathise. Also read about the SET method for communication.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[luvsnotenough]

I have read about validation, I know I could be better at it.  It keep telling her how hard this must be for her... .but how smart she is... .how she can figure this out... .but  unless I agree that her H is a scumbag... .so mean and such a bully, ... .I am the enemy now. 

[ArleighBurke]

I keep telling her... .how smart she is... .how she can figure this out... .

Nope - that's logic.

"I can see how you might feel <H's action> is mean. It must be hard feeling like he is a bully - that's not how someone should feel about their partner."

[luvsnotenough]

I see what you are saying Arleigh, thank you for the example.  I believe she is looking for validation that her hubs is treating her crappy and I have been reluctant to do that, instead opting for walking the middle line.  She won't except that from me.  I feel like a very crappy parent right now... .

My original question that really I need an answer to is this: Is it reasonable for SIL to force separation, divide the kids time between two households, limit financial assistance to my D with the hope and intention of getting her to accept D of BPD and getting back together and into therapy.  His intention is not to divorce, doesn't want that at all just wants wife healthy and is willing to work with her towards this for the sake of their family.  D is at this point to angry and says she is done with his 'bullying'.

[Feeling Better]

Hi luvsnotenough

quote luvsnotenough
My original question that really I need an answer to is this: Is it reasonable for SIL to force separation, divide the kids time between two households, limit financial assistance to my D with the hope and intention of getting her to accept D of BPD and getting back together and into therapy.  His intention is not to divorce, doesn't want that at all just wants wife healthy and is willing to work with her towards this for the sake of their family.  D is at this point to angry and says she is done with his 'bullying'.

First let me say that I understand fully where your SIL is coming from, he loves your D, he wants to spend his life with her and their kids, but at this moment in time he probably sees that non of that is achievable unless D accepts her diagnosis and goes into therapy. He wants to fix his wife and who can blame him for that? I too wanted to fix my son. I thought that if I could get him to see a therapist it would be picked up that there was something not quite right with him, he would get treatment and everything would return to normal. That’s what would happen in a perfect world but as we all know, we do not live in a perfect world. It took me some time to realise that I could not make my son do what he chose not to do. My son is in denial and he thinks that I am the one with the problem.

You ask if it is reasonable for SIL to force separation in order to get your D to accept diagnosis and get therapy.

What do you think, where do you stand on this?

I think that is a difficult question to answer, you and your SIL know your D better than anyone, but I do think that setting a boundary to protect oneself and one’s family is a necessity.

[luvsnotenough]

Thank you for your input Feeling Better.  Hmm. the question you ask is tough.  I realize more every day reading on this site, that it's so complicated.  I have successfully alienated my D and that is not at all my intention.  I feel so torn.  She is telling me her H has totally changed, become a monster and cannot see that the line he has drawn is for the good of the family.  So, because I don't agree I am also the enemy. She is 39, 3 kids and she has had a lot of heartache and has to deal every day with her type 1 diabetes.  It's a struggle.  I can understand how hard this is for her.  She is very smart and very engaging, very much high functioning in many areas.  People love her because she has been so caring and empathetic towards so many people in her town. She is loved by these people... .but those people have only seen the good and functioning side of her.  She has struggled with eating disorders, been in deep depressions, and now the lashing out at her H and now me... .

I am rambling... .I'm sorry.  I'm wondering if there is not a different or better way to bring her to the understanding of the disorder and how it has affected her relationships. 

[ArleighBurke]

I think it is reasonable for him to protect himself and his kids. However... .

Trying to "get her back into therepy" is probably not the right "boundary". His boundaries need to be around her BEHAVIOUR. I would hope he can find a way to slowly let her back into their lives, with boundaries. (Remembering that boundaries are there to protect him/them, not change her.)

What is your daughter doing that your SIL objects to?

[luvsnotenough]

Thanks Arleigh.  Well, she was raging at him, had been physically violent a time or two.  Talks like a truck driver, which is not who she was... .also a lot of intense relationships, some with men through texting, not putting the family first - a very intense relationship with a woman that ended up with a year of depression for D when it ended abruptly.  Then one day she got the kids together and told them she was leaving their dad.  Pulled them out of bed to say this. 
  After he went to counseling he understood that this behavior was unhealthy for him but mostly for the kids.  Her need of attention and affirmation through constant and I mean constant get me this and buy me that, bring me a coffee, pick up one of the kids... .daily demands he tried to curtail, which she interpreted as he doesn't love me anymore and he's mean.  Last straw was he bought her a huge Christmas present and it was met with ungratefulness and contempt. 

Bottom line he has enabled her behavior and demands, tried in vain to make her happy through big trips and presents and constant declarations and demonstrations of love... .but nothing satisfies for long.

[Feeling Better]

quote luvsnotenough
Thank you for your input Feeling Better.  Hmm. the question you ask is tough.  I realize more every day reading on this site, that it's so complicated.  I have successfully alienated my D and that is not at all my intention.  I feel so torn.  She is telling me her H has totally changed, become a monster and cannot see that the line he has drawn is for the good of the family.  So, because I don't agree I am also the enemy.

luvsnotenough, yes, it is so true, it is really complicated and my heart goes out to you, and you are definitely caught in the middle here, no wonder you feel torn.
Have you read about the Karpman Triangle?

Karpman Drama Triangle

Maybe you could take a look and see where you all fit in, what do you think?
I hope you don’t mind, I seem to be bombarding you with lots of information, just take your time with it, there’s no rush.

quote:
I am rambling... .I'm sorry.  I'm wondering if there is not a different or better way to bring her to the understanding of the disorder and how it has affected her relationships.  

Please, no need to apologise for rambling, it’s a great way to get all those thoughts out there, ramble as much as you like, it’s all for the good.

I’m afraid that I personally don’t think that there is a different or better way to bring her to the understanding of the disorder. If she is unable to accept the diagnosis right now then that is what you and your SIL must accept. Some sufferers are pleased to get the diagnosis, it puts an end to their wondering what’s wrong with them. For others, like your D it is overwhelming for them to receive such a diagnosis. Let her know that you love her and are there for her. I’m sure you’re doing that anyway x

[luvsnotenough]

At the moment, my D is feeling that I am not supportive of her.  In our last exchange of texts I responded with logic as opposed to validation.  She slammed me and basically said she didn't want to communicate with me until the divorce was over and the healing had begun.  As crushed as I feel, I know she feels crushed by her perceived lack of love and support she is not getting from me. I don't know what to do... .do I apologize for my lack of validation? Just telling her I love her and I always will... .is not enough.

[ArleighBurke]

do I apologize for my lack of validation? Just telling her I love her and I always will... .is not enough.

At her core, she knows that what she is doing is wrong. The raging, the affairs, putting the kids in the middle. She doesn't have the will/strength/capability to stop herself. She hates herself and can see that she is behaving in a way that is breaking the family. She doesn't feel lovable. BPDs think in black & white, so when you see her behaviour and say you love her, that ALSO causes conflciting feelings within her. She can't understand that. As a non - we can see shades - we can say "you as a person are lovable, and you are separate to your condition" - but the BPD cannot.

(I am certainly no expert, but... .) You have identified that you don't validate very well. That is a skill you need to develop. Even if you validate like a pro, your daughter will still push you away - that's what BPDs do! (It would be an amazing dream to expect at the end of all this she'll embrace you and say "thanks for supporting me mum" - but that is never going to happen) But I think that if you contact her, she will still talk to you. Perhaps instead of affirming your love for her, perhaps you could affirm your SUPPORT of her instead. "I want to be here for you", "I want to go through this with you". That's more a statement about you, and less about her or how you feel about her - it may be easier for her to grasp.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[luvsnotenough]

thank you Arleigh that is helpful.  I am going to do that tonight.    Just as soon as I figure out how to say it... . 

[wendydarling]

Hi luvsenough

I'm sorry you are in a difficult place right now with your daughter and her family. I hope it goes well with your daughter tonight.

As ArleighBurke says it takes us good time to understand what BPD means for our child, what means for us, our situations while similar are unique, our starting point. The tools take us time to learn, some feel counterintuitive and need more practice. Take your good time, we'll all help you through.

Small gentle steps worked for me.

And Hope

WDx