When and how to ask him to commit?

[blooming]

Hi everyone!

My ex uBPDbf (not sure if I should still call him my ex or not haha) and I have been seeing eachother again for about a month now. We've seen eachother 7 times in that time. We are not seeing others, but other than that everything is quite vague. I have tried to talk about it with my ex twice, but he can't really tell me what he wants. He says he can't give me any answers. It's hard for me that he doesn't seem to know what he wants. I don't feel like he is convinced if he wants to be with me or not and that sucks, because it makes me quite insecure. I try to not talk about it with him and to just let things be, but  this current situation isn't making me very happy. I really need to know if he wants me or not. I do not want to be in this limbo for too long. I need to know if he wants me to be his girlfriend again, if that's his goal in all this or not.

He is on holiday in Spain now (having a hard time with that as well, because he contacts me very irregularly, like he doesn't really want to speak to me but still talk to me enough to make sure he's on my mind the whole time or something), so I wanted to look at how things are when he comes back (I really don't know with him, could be that he comes back and that he's done with me again, this has happened once in the past when I was away for a week) and then maybe after a week try to have this conversation with him.

We've had sufficient time for him to know if he likes/wants me in that way right? And if he doesn't, then I just need to know, because then I want to continue on seeing him I think. I just miss how it used to be during our relationship, how I wasn't insecure at all because I knew he loved me and wanted to be around me and found me attractive. Now he never compliments me or says anything about that. I'm just scared that he'll change his mind again whenever I do something slightly wrong in his eyes.

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[isilme]

Hi blooming. 

I think there is one issue here that is not really BPD related, but maybe more about the actions you need to feel cared about.  I may have mentioned the "Love Languages" before, and I think you are currently in a state where you are needing:

1. Words of affirmation
... .This language uses words to affirm other people. For those who prefer the words of affirmation language, hearing "I love you" and other compliments are what they value the most. Words hold real value within this language. Furthermore, negative or insulting comments cut deep — and won't be easily forgiven.

We focus a lot on this board about BPD (obviously) but there can be other things at work that can contribute to how we feel in our relationships.  Not having a partner who can communicate love they way YOU expect it can be one of thse.  Take a look at this and maybe see if you are working at cross purposes with each other?  Like maybe he expresses love one way, but you want to hear the words.  Conversely, you might say the words, but he needs acts of service, etc. 

It's just one more thing to think about as you work to better see how you work as a couple. 



I don't know if you have always been one to need to hear the words, but I do know that BPD relationships can foster feelings of insecurity.  You want a form of validation that he might not be able to give.  Maybe just at this time, maybe never.

Sad thing is, you kinda just have to go with it to see if it works.  And I find that with BPD, actions from both parties seem to do a LOT more to show where you stand than any words can.  My H has what I think of as anxiety/BPD inertia.  He allows himself to get "stuck" in a mode, where he won't try new things, he's afraid of failure and gives up before trying, and for years, I was lucky if he even bothered to do much for my birthday.  He was so scared to fail, he didn't even try, and CHOSE to fail rather than try and MAYBE fail.  So, talking as if you BF has that trait, he might well want to be committed, but the push/pull, fear of responsibility for your feelings, for failure, of being in a position where you can conceivably abandon him (vulnerable), all conspire to make him not give you those words you want. 

You ex/maybe current BF is in an uncertain place right now.  He obviously wants to be sure you are in his life, but maybe can't validate HOW for you right now, because his emotions swirl about and he can't make them sit still and be constant. 

The sad truth is to learn if you can trust a person, you need to take a chance and trust them.  To see if he can commit, you need to give him time to show he can commit.  Words can be said, but actions are what's really going to SHOW you what you need to know, and actions take time.  And there is no set time to determine if you are staying or not.  Couples together for decades can split, or some who have known each other weeks can get married and make it work till death do they part.  It's all way too subjective, and only you and he can determine where things stand.  Asking him where things stand, sadly, is like nagging about it, and can be off-putting and make him LESS likely to want to give you what you want. 

Keep working on your checks ups - how do you feel this week, do you want to continue?  Make sure to use time apart to take care of YOU, do things YOU want.  He will come around, or not, but YOU will be fine either way.  That's kind of the point you need to strive to reach - I am good either way, so I can spend time without tainting it with worry and wonder and want to have a deep conversation but trying not to - I knew I'd managed radical acceptance when I was finally able to attend a wedding without feeling so sad I was not getting married I had to go off and cry or risk crying in public.  I think it might even fall under Radical Acceptance of "what is, is" and we just go with it. 

I hope this makes sense - Monday morning this week is nuts!

[juju2]

Hi

So I am trying to rebuild a r/s.

I get in to trouble asking questions about where we are, what do you see for the future, etc.

It used to feel like he had all the cards.

He also doesn't know if i am committed to him, what our future holds, etc.  and he isn't asking me.

It appears to me the one asking the questions is not accessing their own power.

I have to be strong.  Take what is being given, try not to judge, no assumptions, and for me, no expectations.

It's a tall order, and it is not always attainable.  Its progress, not perfection... .!

It helps me to read here, have a trusted friend who will let me bounce things, and not give advice.

And I try to remember, tomorrow is a new day.

be kind to yourself, gentle, loving.  j

[Jessica84]

We can't make anyone do anything. Sadly, there is no way to know what he will do. You will torture yourself with what-if's. I know limbo hurts. It's agonizing and feels like rejection. Does he want me? He used to want me. Why not now? How can he not know?   Torture.

When I was in limbo, my mind raced... .well, are we together or not?

Then I woke up one day and thought, what if I tossed all these expectations out the window? What if I accepted either outcome? We might be together, we might not. I realized I would be ok, either way. Why am I letting a mentally ill man do this to me? I felt many of your same fears and insecurities-- but what if I make a mistake?  Well, I will. I'm human. So what?  I felt so much lighter! I also noticed it took a lot of pressure off him since I was more at ease around him. I didn't feel the need to KNOW so we floated with no 'label' for awhile, and I was fine with that. But if it got to the point where I wasn't, I had to be willing to walk away. So try to rest your mind, untie your stomach. Tell yourself you'll be just fine, whatever he decides. 

[CryWolf]

Hey Blooming  ,
 
After reading your other thread, I think you are trying to push for commitment from your pwBPD to soothe your anxiety? What do you think? You mentioned you are uncertain with where your relationship stands, and having him commit will relieve some of your fears.

I think you should look into this video. His videos have helped me tremendously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOCbwZbuDZM

[blooming]

Hi blooming. 

I think there is one issue here that is not really BPD related, but maybe more about the actions you need to feel cared about.  I may have mentioned the "Love Languages" before, and I think you are currently in a state where you are needing:

1. Words of affirmation
... .This language uses words to affirm other people. For those who prefer the words of affirmation language, hearing "I love you" and other compliments are what they value the most. Words hold real value within this language. Furthermore, negative or insulting comments cut deep — and won't be easily forgiven.

We focus a lot on this board about BPD (obviously) but there can be other things at work that can contribute to how we feel in our relationships.  Not having a partner who can communicate love they way YOU expect it can be one of thse.  Take a look at this and maybe see if you are working at cross purposes with each other?  Like maybe he expresses love one way, but you want to hear the words.  Conversely, you might say the words, but he needs acts of service, etc.

I think you're right that I need words of affirmation, but he used to be able to give those words just fine. He used to tell me he loved me and cared for me, talking about how long we'd be together. He used to say that what we had was special and that I made him so very happy and that he was so glad he found me and things like that. I miss those words so much. I'm not sure if he'll ever say them again, because I really feel like he lost some/most of his respect for me.

Regarding him and which expression of love he needs, I'm not sure. I think at the moment words of affirmation said by me will probably suffocate him. I give acts of service (like taking care of his fish while he's on holiday), I physically touch him more than he does me, I'm the one who proposes doing special things together most of the time. So I think I'm covering the multiple forms of expressing love pretty well, in my eyes, but in his eyes it might be different of course. Or maybe he doesn't even want me to express my love.

It's just one more thing to think about as you work to better see how you work as a couple. 



I don't know if you have always been one to need to hear the words, but I do know that BPD relationships can foster feelings of insecurity.  You want a form of validation that he might not be able to give.  Maybe just at this time, maybe never.

Sad thing is, you kinda just have to go with it to see if it works.  And I find that with BPD, actions from both parties seem to do a LOT more to show where you stand than any words can.  My H has what I think of as anxiety/BPD inertia.  He allows himself to get "stuck" in a mode, where he won't try new things, he's afraid of failure and gives up before trying, and for years, I was lucky if he even bothered to do much for my birthday.  He was so scared to fail, he didn't even try, and CHOSE to fail rather than try and MAYBE fail.  So, talking as if you BF has that trait, he might well want to be committed, but the push/pull, fear of responsibility for your feelings, for failure, of being in a position where you can conceivably abandon him (vulnerable), all conspire to make him not give you those words you want. 

You ex/maybe current BF is in an uncertain place right now.  He obviously wants to be sure you are in his life, but maybe can't validate HOW for you right now, because his emotions swirl about and he can't make them sit still and be constant. 

Yes you are right. He doesn't want me out of his life but he doesn't know in what way he wants me in. I just don't know I need to go along with his uncertainty or when I should draw my boundary, saying I need clarity. For example, this week he is on holiday with a friend to Spain. He contacts me now and again, but very sporadically, only a few times a day. When I reply to his messages, he doesn't open them until he replies to them. For example I sent him a reply last night at around 9 p.m. and since then he has been online multiple times, but for some reason decided he didn't want to reply to my message? He also hasn't told me goodnight or anything like that, even though I did to him and he was online so he could have easily replied. I really do not know what to think of this. When he was on holiday during our relationship he messaged me all the time, saying he missed me. This is so different. It makes me even more insecure. I'm scared he'll end it when he gets back because he is acting so distant now. I also think he hasn't told any of his friends about us dating again, including the friend he is with now.

The sad truth is to learn if you can trust a person, you need to take a chance and trust them.  To see if he can commit, you need to give him time to show he can commit.  Words can be said, but actions are what's really going to SHOW you what you need to know, and actions take time.  And there is no set time to determine if you are staying or not.  Couples together for decades can split, or some who have known each other weeks can get married and make it work till death do they part.  It's all way too subjective, and only you and he can determine where things stand.  Asking him where things stand, sadly, is like nagging about it, and can be off-putting and make him LESS likely to want to give you what you want. 

Keep working on your checks ups - how do you feel this week, do you want to continue?  Make sure to use time apart to take care of YOU, do things YOU want.  He will come around, or not, but YOU will be fine either way.  That's kind of the point you need to strive to reach - I am good either way, so I can spend time without tainting it with worry and wonder and want to have a deep conversation but trying not to - I knew I'd managed radical acceptance when I was finally able to attend a wedding without feeling so sad I was not getting married I had to go off and cry or risk crying in public.  I think it might even fall under Radical Acceptance of "what is, is" and we just go with it.

At the moment I'm really not sure, this week he's only causing a lot of doubts and insecurities. But of course it's different now because I can't see him. I'll wait and see what things are like when he comes back and if he initiates contact then, if he'll ask me to meet up.  And you are right, that is DEFINITELY  the point I need to reach, saying I'll be fine either way. I try to live my life as much as possible as if he wasn't in it, but in the back of my head he's still on my mind constantly, with thoughts like "why hasn't he replied yet?" "doesn't he think of me?" "does he like me?" "is he using me?" and things like that. I do feel like I'm doing better in this aspect than I used to be, it's kind of a mantra in my head "I'll be fine either way", but it's still hard.

I hope this makes sense - Monday morning this week is nuts!

Definitely made sense, thanks for your long reply!

[blooming]

Hi

So I am trying to rebuild a r/s.

I get in to trouble asking questions about where we are, what do you see for the future, etc.

It used to feel like he had all the cards.

He also doesn't know if i am committed to him, what our future holds, etc.  and he isn't asking me.

It appears to me the one asking the questions is not accessing their own power.

I have to be strong.  Take what is being given, try not to judge, no assumptions, and for me, no expectations.

It's a tall order, and it is not always attainable.  Its progress, not perfection... .!

It helps me to read here, have a trusted friend who will let me bounce things, and not give advice.

And I try to remember, tomorrow is a new day.

be kind to yourself, gentle, loving.  j

Very good advice Juju! I try to have that mindset too, but it's difficult. I'm apparently someone who needs a lot of certainty in her life, especially when it comes to my S/O.

[blooming]

We can't make anyone do anything. Sadly, there is no way to know what he will do. You will torture yourself with what-if's. I know limbo hurts. It's agonizing and feels like rejection. Does he want me? He used to want me. Why not now? How can he not know?   Torture.

When I was in limbo, my mind raced... .well, are we together or not?

Then I woke up one day and thought, what if I tossed all these expectations out the window? What if I accepted either outcome? We might be together, we might not. I realized I would be ok, either way. Why am I letting a mentally ill man do this to me? I felt many of your same fears and insecurities-- but what if I make a mistake?  Well, I will. I'm human. So what?  I felt so much lighter! I also noticed it took a lot of pressure off him since I was more at ease around him. I didn't feel the need to KNOW so we floated with no 'label' for awhile, and I was fine with that. But if it got to the point where I wasn't, I had to be willing to walk away. So try to rest your mind, untie your stomach. Tell yourself you'll be just fine, whatever he decides. 

It is torture indeed. But if I accept either outcome, it means that I give all the power to him. Or at least that's what it feels like to me, total surrender. And I'm not sure if I should do that, if I should give him that power, if he deserves that. I don't want to reduce myself to his puppet, I want to let him know that there are certain conditions if he wants me. I don't want this limbo to last forever, to let him get away with giving me all this uncertainty. He know has exactly what he wants, my love and attention and his freedom. I'm not sure how long I can keep that up.

How did things end up for you?

[blooming]

Hey Blooming  ,
 
After reading your other thread, I think you are trying to push for commitment from your pwBPD to soothe your anxiety? What do you think? You mentioned you are uncertain with where your relationship stands, and having him commit will relieve some of your fears.

I think you should look into this video. His videos have helped me tremendously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOCbwZbuDZM

Yes, that could definitely be the case. I think you hit the nail on the head. I'll look into the video!

[juju2]

B

you are going to be fine.

You are on this board, you are part of a powerful community that has been thru a-z regarding BPD.

learn here, unburden here.  This is a safe, loving, caring place.

Give yourself space.  Give yourself kindness.

enjoy who you are, who you are, and the blessings you give to the world.

As you share, your capacity to give and love grows.

Be at peace.

Love and life is available, you have unlimited possibilities, you are precious.  You are important.

When I try to understand, rather than be understood, miracles happen.

I wrote down the St Francis of Assisi prayer, that prayer helps me so much!

have fun, be good to yourself!

j

[isilme]

But if I accept either outcome, it means that I give all the power to him. Or at least that's what it feels like to me, total surrender.

But it's not surrender if it's on YOUR terms, respecting YOUR boundaries.  If you decide you no longer want to exist like this and choose to stop allowing access other than the most platonic friendship possible, that is YOU being in control.  If you choose to stick it out a little longer,and evaluate each week/month how it's going, you are still in control. 

The only thing you CAN'T control, is him, his emotions, his actions. 

That's not defeat, that's not surrender.  Choosing to wait on him is your choice.  Choosing to toss this r/s because it does not look like it meets your needs is not surrender.

If you choose to leave this r/s and just be friends, or be nothing at all, it's fine.  It's not a failure, surrender, it's you respecting you.  If you choose to stay and see if he needs some time to come around to giving you more of what you need - it's fine.  The goal of learning to get to where either way is okay for YOU is to protect YOU.   

If you hate how this feels, this limbo, this feeling like his girl Friday, only YOU can change the situation.  He's happy right now.  He's got access to you as he likes, and distance when he wants.  He can meet with you, or not.  Respond to messages, or not.  He has no desire to change the status quo. 

This may sound a little childish of me, but when I was choosing whether to stay with H 10 years back, I stopped hugging him - unless he initiated it.  I stopped messaging him for anything less than essential, unless he initiated.  I did not see this as playing a game, playing hard to get, or anything like that.  I simply got tired of feeling I was putting myself out there and he wasn't.

I know this is painful but it really seems like you want everything nicely tied up in one big conversation with him that will state his feelings, your feelings, and see where those meet.  No one has a relationship like that, at least not outside of some mediating therapy.  That would make life so much easier, so simple, so much times and hurt saved. 

Look at his actions - stop looking for words to tell you what he wants - and how he used to be is irrelevant, he's not that person now.  His actions are telling you where you are today on the priority list.  Now, maybe, Devil's Advocate, he's got connection issues, his phone or other devices aren't working so well in Spain, maybe other things are preventing him from responding when you'd like or want.  I agree to see how he is when he comes back, and just take his trip with a grain of salt.  I hope writing on here helps take away some of the anxiety - I know feeling like this sucks. 

[Jessica84]

juju2 - that's beautiful!     

Islilme - yes, yes, yes... .very insightful!

blooming - I wasn't suggesting surrendering to him, more like letting go of expectations. I used to view this as a weakness too, like I was giving him his cake and eat it too. What I learned is it actually takes a lot of strength to surrender to what is, rather than what should be.

BPD relationships will never be "normal". They will never be "fair" or 50/50. This was a hard reality to accept. But once I did, I was more at peace. I didn't feel I was giving up anything, except the stress and anxiety of trying to control everything! I was pushing a boulder up a hill HOPING it wouldn't roll back over me. It would, every time. So I let go, stepped out of the way, and it didn't take him long to feel safe to commit.

That's not to say we don't have our limits. We still need boundaries. But insisting he commit is not a boundary... .it is a demand. Demanding he commit or you leave... .is a threat. Refusing to be with him if he's seeing other women... .that's a boundary.

[Daffodill]

Hi Blooming, I have been going through the exact same thing with my uBPDbf for over a year now and it is very frustrating.  One minute he seems so in to me and wanting to be together and talking about future possibilities and the next he's pushing me away and won't make any verbal commitments.  A lot of the time I think he freaks himself out with his talk of the future and planning our life together but when I try to slow him down, he takes that as rejection.  

On the one hand, he says he's confused and doesn't know what he wants, on the other, he does seem fairly committed to me.  He gets really upset if I push him to tell me what he wants so I've learned just to go with the flow and listen to him, but not talk too much about the future or try to slow him down. I'm mostly in a wait and see mode, which can be very hard.  I just know that I don't want to be with anyone else right now, so there's not much point in pushing hard for a resolution one way or another.

Unlike you, though, he communicates with me daily, usually multiple times a day.  It's only after we've spent a good chunk of time together that he will go into what I call "radio silence mode" and not communicate much for a day or two.  We've had issues with him being too "friendly" and emotionally involved with other women so that is particularly hard for me as I don't really know what he is doing or who he is with on those days and he will lie to me before telling me the truth.

On the flip side, he doesn't want me seeing anyone else and gets jealous and hurt if I talk to other male friends.  I think a lot of this is he just really needs validation and he needs it from more than just one person.  I know he cares about me a lot and he invites me to join him and his family (mom/stepmom/son) for things somewhat regularly, so he's not hiding me as he does the other women (lucky me).  I'm hoping I can get him into counseling with a BPD professional who does DBT.  He's high functioning and is mostly very dedicated to AA and is always working the steps so if he puts the same effort into DBT, I'm hopeful that it will all be worth it and we will work out.  

I've also tried counseling a couple times in the past year, but neither therapist worked out. I just found a practice that specializes in BPD and have joined their 6 week support group and hope to start seeing a therapist from their group once that is done.  I feel like they might be better able to help me as they will be more familiar with BPD and the type of people who tend to get involved with them  (this is my 2nd BPD bf) and my specific issues.  

In the mean time, I've set boundries and rules for our relationship that are in line with his behaviour towards me and what he is able to commit to.  We live separately and there are no over night visits until/unless he can make a firm commitment to officially be my bf and not be seeing other women.  That seems to be working for us.  Consequently, we have a lot of date nights which is nice, too.

[isilme]

What I learned is it actually takes a lot of strength to surrender to what is, rather than what should be.

I tell my husband "should" is one of the worst words in the English language.  He focusses a lot on what "should be".  Stores "should" have certain things, devices "should" work a certain way, "people "should" behave a certain way... .etc.

I have to deal with reality.  If the store doesn't have it, it doesn't have it.  Devices and people work how they are programmed.  So I deal with what the do, and try to not feel frustration over the things I WISH they did. 

It's good to know what you want.  It's also good to know what you have, what you are likely to have, and determine how much you can manage any difference between the wants and the haves, and the might bes. 

It was only when I finally made my peace with never being married, and realized I wanted H for who is is, BPD and other warts and all, and I'd do without the want of marriage for the sake of being with HIM, that I was able to let go of being a nag about it, be a happier person he WANTED to be around, and got past some of my insecurities to be a better me.  When that happened, HE finally decided to be a better HIM, and made a lot of headway into being a better BF, finally proposed, and we finally got married.  BPD is always going to be an issue.  But we are better now than 10 years ago, but I had to be patient, look at the bed I was making, and determine if I was willing to sleep in it the rest of my life regardless of if we ever met eye to eye on certain things.  I could not focus on what he "should" do, but what he WAS/IS doing.

[Jessica84]

Islilme - you explained it so much better than I did. I know others will see it as settling, I see it as accepting what IS. There's more peace, contentment, satisfaction... .and less anger, anxiety and resentment.

A therapist once helped me work thru some issues I had with my dad. He neglected and abandoned us as kids. She told me some people have a thimble of love to give, some a cup, come a bucket, some have oceans. At first, I thought... .oh come on! A father has to have more than a thimble!

But if this is all they have to give, what good does it do to expect more? This helped me accept, forgive, let go of unrealistic expectations. My BPDbf also has limitations. He may have oceans of love, but there are toxins in it... .so if I filter out the gunk, I can get a nice big cup of it.   

[isilme]

Jessica,

Same regarding the parents.  Both of mine seem to be on the BPD spectrum and were wholly unsuited to be parents.  On the other hand, I guess they prepared me quite well for falling for a guy with some of the same issues, just on a lower order of magnitude. 

I had to soul-search.  I needed to know if I wanted HIM, or just anyone who'd tell me they loved me, if I was going to stick around no matter what, or if I felt it would be better to be alone (for a while, forever, whatever) than live without the level of commitment I felt I needed.  Or, could I have the commitment without the ring?  I know Blooming is not looking for a ring (at least not at this time).  And a ring does not guarantee commitment any more than nice words do - actions show commitment, nothing else.  And commitment can come in stages/levels. 

H and I never formally announced we were BF/GF.  It just happened.  We spent time together, liked that time, and expanded it.  Like most things, I fell into it and just did my best to make it work.  He has always been a bit behind where someone his age is assumed to be.  Most of our friends were married by their early to mid 30s.  We did not even get engaged till we were both 37.  He did not finish school till 12 years after starting.  He coasted on my meager paycheck until his own pride was hurt enough to bypass the BPD inertia and take action. 

I don't know much of what else is going on in blooming's life, or her exbf/maybe bf.  He seems "gunshy" at the least as far as being able to articulate what she needs to hear to feel validated.  And after one recent break up from each other, he might be wary of feelings she has all his eggs in her basket and wants to hold onto a few.  BPD won't remember who broke up with whom, he will just remember that she was about to abandon him and so to keep her at a distance until he feels she's not going anywhere.  Sadly, his actions right now show her he's fine with that distance and she's not. 

Sadly, much of modern dating looks to be a bit of a muddy mess compared to even 10 years ago how things worked, when my Razr flip phone was high tech and no one wanted to pay the data rates to snap chat all day.  But, no one could get offended or hurt if that snap chat was not returned, either.  There was no swipe right for a quick and easy hook up - you still had to go out to find even a casual affair.  There was more obvious effort in a relationship at the early stages, and that made it a "little" easier to see where you stood. 

[blooming]

B

you are going to be fine.

You are on this board, you are part of a powerful community that has been thru a-z regarding BPD.

learn here, unburden here.  This is a safe, loving, caring place.

Give yourself space.  Give yourself kindness.

enjoy who you are, who you are, and the blessings you give to the world.

As you share, your capacity to give and love grows.

Be at peace.

Love and life is available, you have unlimited possibilities, you are precious.  You are important.

When I try to understand, rather than be understood, miracles happen.

I wrote down the St Francis of Assisi prayer, that prayer helps me so much!

have fun, be good to yourself!

j

Thank you so much for this lovely and encouraging comment J, it helps so much! And I'll look up the St. Francis prayer.

[blooming]

But it's not surrender if it's on YOUR terms, respecting YOUR boundaries.  If you decide you no longer want to exist like this and choose to stop allowing access other than the most platonic friendship possible, that is YOU being in control.  If you choose to stick it out a little longer,and evaluate each week/month how it's going, you are still in control. 

The only thing you CAN'T control, is him, his emotions, his actions. 

That's not defeat, that's not surrender.  Choosing to wait on him is your choice.  Choosing to toss this r/s because it does not look like it meets your needs is not surrender.

If you choose to leave this r/s and just be friends, or be nothing at all, it's fine.  It's not a failure, surrender, it's you respecting you.  If you choose to stay and see if he needs some time to come around to giving you more of what you need - it's fine.  The goal of learning to get to where either way is okay for YOU is to protect YOU.   

If you hate how this feels, this limbo, this feeling like his girl Friday, only YOU can change the situation.  He's happy right now.  He's got access to you as he likes, and distance when he wants.  He can meet with you, or not.  Respond to messages, or not.  He has no desire to change the status quo. 

This may sound a little childish of me, but when I was choosing whether to stay with H 10 years back, I stopped hugging him - unless he initiated it.  I stopped messaging him for anything less than essential, unless he initiated.  I did not see this as playing a game, playing hard to get, or anything like that.  I simply got tired of feeling I was putting myself out there and he wasn't.

I know this is painful but it really seems like you want everything nicely tied up in one big conversation with him that will state his feelings, your feelings, and see where those meet.  No one has a relationship like that, at least not outside of some mediating therapy.  That would make life so much easier, so simple, so much times and hurt saved. 

Look at his actions - stop looking for words to tell you what he wants - and how he used to be is irrelevant, he's not that person now.  His actions are telling you where you are today on the priority list.  Now, maybe, Devil's Advocate, he's got connection issues, his phone or other devices aren't working so well in Spain, maybe other things are preventing him from responding when you'd like or want.  I agree to see how he is when he comes back, and just take his trip with a grain of salt.  I hope writing on here helps take away some of the anxiety - I know feeling like this sucks. 

Thank you so much for your comment isilme, as always, your words really resonate with me and help me so much with coming to terms with my own feelings.

You are right, those are my terms. And what you say about the way you wanted to find out if you were going to stay with your H or not, sounds like a very good way to find out if my ex actually wants to commit or not. I'll try to implement that a little bit too. Because you describe exactly my feelings, being tired of putting myself out there while he's doing that a lot less.

He actually asked me yesterday if I had any plans Saturday night and when I said I didn't he said "Well, now you have". So I guess it's a good sign that he wants to see me and that he's already thinking about that on Tuesday, while he's on holiday, hat he wants to make sure that he sees me on Saturday.

I did something stupid today though. While I was in his room to feed his fish (he gave me his keys to feed his fish this week), I wanted to see if he still had a present I gave him (a custom made pair of underpants, it was an inside joke) or if he had thrown it away. I don't really know why. So, he still had it, but in the same drawer I saw an opened pack of condoms. Of course, in the back of my head, I knew that he has had sex with other girls in the periods that we were broken up, but it's still hard to see the evidence. I want to forget it as soon as possible, but I don't know how.

[blooming]

juju2 - that's beautiful!     

Islilme - yes, yes, yes... .very insightful!

blooming - I wasn't suggesting surrendering to him, more like letting go of expectations. I used to view this as a weakness too, like I was giving him his cake and eat it too. What I learned is it actually takes a lot of strength to surrender to what is, rather than what should be.

BPD relationships will never be "normal". They will never be "fair" or 50/50. This was a hard reality to accept. But once I did, I was more at peace. I didn't feel I was giving up anything, except the stress and anxiety of trying to control everything! I was pushing a boulder up a hill HOPING it wouldn't roll back over me. It would, every time. So I let go, stepped out of the way, and it didn't take him long to feel safe to commit.

That's not to say we don't have our limits. We still need boundaries. But insisting he commit is not a boundary... .it is a demand. Demanding he commit or you leave... .is a threat. Refusing to be with him if he's seeing other women... .that's a boundary.

Thank you for your comment Jessica, this makes a lot of sense. How were you able to let go? Because saying that you let go is a lot easier than actually doing it.

[blooming]

Hi Blooming, I have been going through the exact same thing with my uBPDbf for over a year now and it is very frustrating.  One minute he seems so in to me and wanting to be together and talking about future possibilities and the next he's pushing me away and won't make any verbal commitments.  A lot of the time I think he freaks himself out with his talk of the future and planning our life together but when I try to slow him down, he takes that as rejection.  

On the one hand, he says he's confused and doesn't know what he wants, on the other, he does seem fairly committed to me.  He gets really upset if I push him to tell me what he wants so I've learned just to go with the flow and listen to him, but not talk too much about the future or try to slow him down. I'm mostly in a wait and see mode, which can be very hard.  I just know that I don't want to be with anyone else right now, so there's not much point in pushing hard for a resolution one way or another.

Unlike you, though, he communicates with me daily, usually multiple times a day.  It's only after we've spent a good chunk of time together that he will go into what I call "radio silence mode" and not communicate much for a day or two.  We've had issues with him being too "friendly" and emotionally involved with other women so that is particularly hard for me as I don't really know what he is doing or who he is with on those days and he will lie to me before telling me the truth.

On the flip side, he doesn't want me seeing anyone else and gets jealous and hurt if I talk to other male friends.  I think a lot of this is he just really needs validation and he needs it from more than just one person.  I know he cares about me a lot and he invites me to join him and his family (mom/stepmom/son) for things somewhat regularly, so he's not hiding me as he does the other women (lucky me).  I'm hoping I can get him into counseling with a BPD professional who does DBT.  He's high functioning and is mostly very dedicated to AA and is always working the steps so if he puts the same effort into DBT, I'm hopeful that it will all be worth it and we will work out.  

I've also tried counseling a couple times in the past year, but neither therapist worked out. I just found a practice that specializes in BPD and have joined their 6 week support group and hope to start seeing a therapist from their group once that is done.  I feel like they might be better able to help me as they will be more familiar with BPD and the type of people who tend to get involved with them  (this is my 2nd BPD bf) and my specific issues.  

In the mean time, I've set boundries and rules for our relationship that are in line with his behaviour towards me and what he is able to commit to.  We live separately and there are no over night visits until/unless he can make a firm commitment to officially be my bf and not be seeing other women.  That seems to be working for us.  Consequently, we have a lot of date nights which is nice, too.

Wow, I really admire you for being so strong and not having any over night visits. Unfortunately I haven't been that strong. I am 99% sure that he isn't seeing any other women at the moment though, I think it's only me since we started seeing eachother again.

My ex and I talk every day too by the way, although it's just a lot less and in a very different tone than it used to be. We don't flirt or compliment each other or say sweet things, it's just a lot more distant and I find that difficult. I miss the love he used to give me.

It's interesting that your guy isn't ready to commit even though you see his family regularly and things like that. It sounds like part of him is ready for it, but something is still holding him back. Good on you for setting those boundaries and for being able to let go of the negative feelings surrounding all that doubt.

[Jessica84]

Blooming - letting go is no easy task. Yes, easier said than done! It's a lot like islilme described - had to do some soul-searching for what I wanted, deciding if I could accept what he could give (was it enough?), forgiving his past mistakes, and being content in the moment. If THIS moment feels good, then nothing else matters. I had to get out of the past, and the future. Both hard to do. Pain from the past lingers, fear of an unknown future brings doubt and worries. Try to return your thoughts to the present.

You can apply this to the condoms - yes, hard to see reminders like that... .but that's the past. You don't believe he is seeing anyone else right now. He still has the gift you gave him. You have a key to his place. You have a date set for Saturday night. He is thinking of YOU. He wants to see YOU. So... .in THIS moment, how do you feel? 

[blooming]

Blooming - letting go is no easy task. Yes, easier said than done! It's a lot like islilme described - had to do some soul-searching for what I wanted, deciding if I could accept what he could give (was it enough?), forgiving his past mistakes, and being content in the moment. If THIS moment feels good, then nothing else matters. I had to get out of the past, and the future. Both hard to do. Pain from the past lingers, fear of an unknown future brings doubt and worries. Try to return your thoughts to the present.

You can apply this to the condoms - yes, hard to see reminders like that... .but that's the past. You don't believe he is seeing anyone else right now. He still has the gift you gave him. You have a key to his place. You have a date set for Saturday night. He is thinking of YOU. He wants to see YOU. So... .in THIS moment, how do you feel? 

You are right, being in the moment is the best way to tackle this. Whenever I notice that my thoughts are going elsewhere, to what he has done or might do in the future, I try to get myself back to the present and to what I'm actually currently doing. I try to not let him dominate my life and thoughts and feelings as much as he used to. It's already helping a bit, but it's very difficult.

Waaah you saying "you don't believe" makes me doubt my own beliefs. But I am pretty certain he's not seeing anyone else? Of course I can never be 100% sure, or maybe that will grow with time. I am at least more sure about it than I was a few weeks ago.

Thank you for listing those things like that. In this moment things are going pretty okay between us I guess? He is still showing interest and contacting me despite him being on holiday and having a lot of distractions. I still find it hard though that our communication isn't as loving as it used to be.

[Jessica84]

Oh no, I'm sorry... .these relationships cause enough anxiety as it is! Sorry for my word choice. You know him better than anywhere here!   So don't doubt yourself. 

These all look like positive signs to me.

I hope you have a great time on Saturday!

[blooming]

So Saturday went really well! He had clearly missed me and was very affectionate. He even grabbed my hand when we went out to eat an ice cream and when we watched a movie he held me in his arms the entire time. It felt really good, I felt loved and appreciated.

I saw him again yesterday evening, we went to a concert together. I planned on going by myself, but he decided to join me last minute. Yesterday was very different from Saturday. We still had quite a nice time, but he wasn't affectionate at all. Didn't hold my hand or touch me the entire evening. Only when we were in bed together did he hug me. And he was a lot less talkative, there were quite a few silent moments. I think silence is fine and being silent together also has a function, but at this stage it just makes me scared that he has changed his mind.

I'll see him again on Friday, we're going to spend the day together, doing something nice (still need to think of what though). That was my idea, I already asked him on Sunday evening. I think I'll ask him about how he thinks things are going on Friday, because all these different signs are making me very insecure and I just need to know where his head is at I guess.

I really want to make this work. I know so many things now that I didn't know the last time around, I really think I'll be able to cope with his BPD better now. I just get the feeling that he doesn't want me in my entirety, only the fun part. He doesn't want me to talk about my problems or feelings, and I think he's scared that I'll start doing that when we are official.

[juju2]

Hi,

If you notice he was a bit different that 2 time, I would not up the ante by pressuring w questions about the future, our future, the r/s at all.

To me that is pressure, you need to know.  It is chasing behaviour, that doesn't work w my s.o.

That is just my experience.

I am better to notice trends.  I am better to notice actions.

I can vent here, journal, call a trusted friend if i can't control myself and need to speak out and hear myself ask the questions I need answers to.

I found out at a mtg last nite, someone said, I just need to speak this out and hear myself, it's healing for me, you guys just listen

take excellent care

juju

[blooming]

Hi,

If you notice he was a bit different that 2 time, I would not up the ante by pressuring w questions about the future, our future, the r/s at all.

To me that is pressure, you need to know.  It is chasing behaviour, that doesn't work w my s.o.

That is just my experience.

I am better to notice trends.  I am better to notice actions.

I can vent here, journal, call a trusted friend if i can't control myself and need to speak out and hear myself ask the questions I need answers to.

I found out at a mtg last nite, someone said, I just need to speak this out and hear myself, it's healing for me, you guys just listen

take excellent care

juju

It might not be good for him, but at this point it is just bothering me too much and I think I'd rather not have him in my life and try to move on than have this uncertainty and feeling all the time like I'm not good enough and that I'm lacking. It's exhausting. I talked about it for a long time with my therapist and I need to put myself first now, not him (because that's what I've done all the time). If he isn't sure about wanting me in his life, than I don't think having him in my life will be a good influence.

[juju2]

I see your point.

Perhaps you may just back up, a little.

Act as if he is gone, and see how that feels, before you go somewhere you will (might)end up, and really not liking where you ended up.?

Play pretend for a couple of days, try it on, does having him not in your life work for you.

Because we can't switch it back, once we go down that path of removing ourselves from their life.
We can't just undo that when(if) we don't like that.!

Do you have a little bit of time to work thru this, and not insist... .


If i had done what I am suggesting to you, I would not be in the predicament I am in.

It is not a good idea to pressure. 

If i pull back, I can look and see what THEY DO.  That will tell me more than a confronting demand that may push the whole r/s to a worse place.

Sometimes other well meaning friends, therapists, co workers, just want me to stop complaining, it's better for THEM if you leave that so and so.

They are not invested, they won't be living w the results!
I wish this wasn't true.

And the well meaning friends, family, coworkers, therapists, they are only seeing my side of this!

I go to a program where, when you start (alanon),
They suggest no changes for one year, because during that year you are going through so many changes, it's impossible to know right now, what you will end up wanting, who YOU will be... .
Even if you don't go to a program, we change so much.

This is my experience, strength, and hope.

(you can read my posts, went thru similar w my b/f)


also, "urgency" is my red flag to slow myself down, find out what is it in me that has me doing these things? what is my attitude.?

best,
j

[isilme]

Blooming, 

Juju is right - asking too much, too often, or even at all can be seen as a form of attack, especially with BPD, so it's best to remember he may not be able to give you the validation you seek.  Like Juju said, actions will tell you, but actions take time.  Words can be hollow - do you want hollow words?  Or meaningful actions? 

I should send you a link to a wedding blog I used to follow.  Some girls on there (I know this is not you at this time, but there are some similarities) are dying to know if/when they will get a proposal.  It drives the crazy.  So they have a "shut up pact".  They support each other in not asking their BFs WHERE'S MY RING - I NEED IT TO FEEL WE ARE PROGRESSING AT MY PACE.  It helps many of them - they have a place like here to vent how they feel, but at the same time arent' running off the menfolk with constant questions. 

Fact about most people - we don't like being asked about things we either think are already doing (he probably thinks he's being affectionate), or things we intend to do but haven't done yet.  Human nature - if I want to do something nice for my H, like get the AC fixed on his car as a surprise, it's a bit of a downer if he asks me to go do it.  My surprise is ruined, and I worry he will only think "she did it because I asked" not "she did it because she wanted to". 

Most men I know HATE "the talk".  "Where are we s a couple?"  ":)o you want to date only me?"  "Tell me how you really feel?"  It's like throwing garlic water on a vampire.

I hope this makes sense - my brain is not fully functional today!

[blooming]

Thanks for your replies! I just need to know though. I'm done pretending I'm okay with the current situation, pretending that it doesn't matter to me that everything is so different from what it used to be like. I miss his love. And I don't think I can live much longer with this shadow of what we used to be like.

For example, last night he went out with friends. And even though I can see on whatsapp that he's been online since after I sent him a good night/have fun/I'm going to bed message, he hasn't read or replied to it all night. Not even when he went to bed. Things like that just make me so insecure and I'm so done with him making me feel like that. I'm done with doing everything his way and putting myself second all the time.

We're going to go hiking today, so let's see if I have the courage to bring it up. I just need to know where we're standing and how he thinks things are going.

[juju2]

How did hiking go?