Going no contact still letting mother see grand children

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi,

Looking for some thoughts. I have had no contact with BPD mother for 3 months but I am enabling her to see my children through my father. It’s starting to make me feel uncomfortable my children having a relationship with her independent of me but I don’t want to hurt her. Any thoughts on the situation?

[Zara]

Hi,

Looking for some thoughts. I have had no contact with BPD mother for 3 months but I am enabling her to see my children through my father. It’s starting to make me feel uncomfortable my children having a relationship with her independent of me but I don’t want to hurt her. Any thoughts on the situation?

[Fie]

Hello Zara !  

Welcome on board !  You will notice that you have a whole bunch of people here who understand you because they are in a similar situation.

I am a mum too, I have one daughter. My own mother is BPD, my dad NPD.
I don't have contact with them - their choice actually. My mum has tried to contact my daughter through her father (we are seperated). In the beginning I allowed that. You know, I felt bad that my child wouldn't have a grandma and granddad.

Until finally I started to feel really bad about it. My feelings somehow turned around : from feeling guilty about not being able to provide my child with grandparents, I started to feel that somehow I was sacrificing her to my parents. After all, they have never treated me with a lot of respect (understatement), I didn't see any reason why they would be any different with my daughter. And also they only started to be interested in meeting her when it became clear that I didn't take their abuse anymore. It had become a control game for them.

I decided it had been enough. If they want to visit my child, they are allowed, but through me.
I would recommend you to listen to your own gut feeling. You have to do what's best for you and for your child. Not what's best for your mum. You and your child are the two most important people in your life !

Again, welcome ! Please ask any additional questions. A lot of people are reading along, even when they don't answer. We all learn from each other.

xxx

[bluek9]

Hi Zara,

      Welcome to the board. Let me second the phrase "ask more questions, others are always reading along". My situation is slightly different, my parents were my abusers. I chose to keep my kids away as much as was possible. Unfortunately didn't mean 100%, I really wanted kids to have grandparents who wouldn't hurt them in any way. I ended up being very restrictive with the interaction they had with my parents, they never were alone with them and didn't spens more than 30 at most. Now I'm raising my grandson JJ (my BPDD child) who is 6, my parents are still living, in the same town as I am. They are both elderly (78,83) and want to see my JJ. And yes they are both still abusive. Only now I see them maybe once a month and take JJ with me, we never stay more than 15 minutes and he is never left alone with them.
    I'm sure that sounds harsh to some people, I've had people ask me why I don't break off completely. It's too complicated.
   I just wanted to support you and let you know there are others who deal with similar situations. Your not alone here, there is always support, input, suggestions. Keep in mind we always need to do what's best for us and our kids.

[Harri]

Hi.

My mother, deceased now with suspected paranoid schizophrenia and BPD, was constantly fighting with her sisters and mother.  I don't really remember what about but when I was about 6 or 7 my mother refused to go to my g-ma's house (One aunt also lived there).  My father was the one to take us.

The atmosphere during visits was awkward, uncomfortable, tense and full of unspoken hurt.  Eventually, my mom and g-ma came to a cold truce but things remained tense.  We, my brother and I, knew something was wrong and they had fought but it was never talked about except my aunt would take me aside and talk to me like I was her friend saying things like "I think you are the only one who understand me Harri".

There was no enriching healthy relationship with my g-ma or aunts.  Not ever.  Being sent to see them just made me feel like a pawn (probably not helped by my mother saying she wanted to keep the peace so my bro and I would have family).  It was bizarre to be honest with you.  Why would she want us to be around people who she herself did not like and refused to be around?  We were too young not to be influenced by the adult conflict and by the time we were old enough, it was too late.  We just felt uncomfortable and unable to relax until the day my grandmother died.  The aunt that lived with her is still alive somewhere in a state facility.  My brother and I have no contact.  Every once in a while I google her name to check for a death notice.

Weird stuff.  I hope it works out better for you and your kids than it did for my brother and me.

[Zara]

Thanks very much for taking the time to respond you have all given me food for thought it one respect or another. Made me think about it from different points of view. Life an be tricky, just want to try to make the right decisions.

 My mum is quite high functioning BPD and it seems to come in cycles so a lot of the time she seems ok but you fall into a false sense of security and end up beening taken off guard and at times intimidated/frightened. She would be devastated if I stopped her seeing my kids (3 and 1) one of the few things that make her happy. However, It’s starting to feel wrong me letting her see them when we are not speaking. Why would I let my kids go to someone who I’m not in contact with and can be unpredictable? Still not sure what to do need to have a good think and speak to my husband .

Thanks again x

[DisneyMom06]

Hi Zara! This is one I'm currently dealing with as well but for me once I went no contact with my uBPD mother I stopped her from seeing/contacting my children as well. I'm not sure how your mom is but my mom fights dirty. Once I told her that I needed space from her and would contact her when I eas ready she turned all of her attention to my kids and tried to use family members to contact me so that she could see my kids. I told them that if she wants contact with my children her main focus needs to be repairing her relationship with me. She waited for me to leave the other day (yep she stalks my house) and once i left my husband said she came to the house within a few mins of me leaving and he didn't think anything bad because she said she only wanted to drop off their birthday presents, he invited her in to play with the kids for a few mins and he said worse mistake ever. He heard her whispering a bunch to them and then when she left my kids said that she told them it was my husbands fault why she wasn't around and that they are allowed to call her anytime and she will come pick them up and bunch of other BS. My daughter is old enough to understand what's going on and she was upset she said i see how grandma treats you and for her to tell me a lie and then kept asking us questions about stuff made me super uncomfortable. So if you are not in relationship with your mom I wouldn't suggest having your kids around her incase she is filling their heads with nonsense. It's a sad situation

[Zara]

Hi thanks for the advice, my mum is a bit different to yours. If she was acting they way you have described. I defineatly wouldn’t let her see the kids. Right but sad decision on your part as you say.

My mum pulls me up for random things every couple of months in quite an aggressive/passive agressive way generally about feeling left out in some way but no matter what you do she finds reasons to take umbridge with you. If I stand up to her she doesn’t speak to me. She would speak if I contacted her but I don’t want to because I’m sick of it and can’t handle how unsupportive she is especially now I have the kids. It’s classic walking on eggshells around her and everything is on her terms.

She is fine with the kids at this stage if somewhat overbearing. Just don’t want to model a bad relationship if you now what I mean. Mummy and gran don’t talk or see each other but we see gran, it just feels odd.  I don’t think she would bad mouth or play mind games or anything. My main concern is them feeling  the walking on eggshells way as if how they feel isn’t as important as how gran feels.

Currently my dad collects the kids on a Saturday and drops them back at tea time. My Dad is very submissive  Starting to feel like it’s a divorce and my mum is my ex husband I’m estranged from which doesn't sit well. Made me think you saying if she isn’t putting work into repairing our relationship then I shouldn’t let her see my children but it makes me feel selfish.

[Fie]

@Disneymom,

she turned all of her attention to my kids and tried to use family members to contact me so that she could see my kids.

My mother did pretty much the same ... .

[Fie]

Just don’t want to model a bad relationship if you now what I mean.

That ... .And also, I wonder in my situation, why would my mum treat my child any different than she has been treated me ?

The best predictor for future behavior ... is past behavior (and current behavior even more of course !)

[YouHadMeAtHello]

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but if your mother can't have a good relationship with you why should she get one with your kids?   She's not in your life for a reason, right?  Why would you subject your kids to that?  Maybe I just need more context. 

My sister is pretty high functioning BPD, but I still don't think she's an appropriate person to be around my daughter.  She definitely will not be around my daughter if I'm not there.  No way.  She's just too volatile and I don't want my daughter thinking behavior like that is normal.  My BPD sister will usually keep it together at a party or gathering with more people, so I can accept that she will be at larger family parties but she'll never be alone with my daughter. 

[Harri]

Hi again.  There have been a couple of people who do allow the BPD/uBPD g-parent access to the kids but usually not unsupervised, like youhadmeathello mentioned.

Regardless of the circumstances, it will always be awkward and your mother will most likely complain and be upset.  She should not be looking at your kids as pacifiers. 

There are stories of grandparents playing emotional games with 2 year old by asking things like "who do you love more, me or mommy?" or crying and being hurt when a child exerts their independence and refuses to kiss or hug someone.  Emotional blackmail is very subtle sometimes.

Zara said:

It’s starting to make me feel uncomfortable my children having a relationship with her independent of me but I don’t want to hurt her... . 
She would be devastated if I stopped her seeing my kids (3 and 1) one of the few things that make her happy.

How much are the above statements influencing your decision to allow her to see your kids?  How can we help you to work through these concerns so they are off the table in terms of making your decision?



Your discomfort with the situation and your hesitation and questioning indicate that your gut is trying to get your attention, so your instincts are good. 

[Zara]

It’s not harsh, it’s an honest opinion. It’s hard to explain, that’s why I feel confused. I have never had a problem with how my mum is with my kids and they enjoy speanding time with her. She makes an effort with them because they will vote with their feet. She’s not a danger to them in anyway. They might pick up that she can be quite an  intense, bossy person but she wouldn’t be volitile or anything around them. She has a certain amount of self control in that respect. I think she will be ok while they are young but not so sure as they become independent that’s when I think she may start  to control as everything has to be on her terms and what she wants to do. She will also panic incase they don’t want to spend time with her anymore but not enough to think about putting what they might want to do first. At this point they fulfil an emptiness she has. Not sure she could handle not seeing them.

[Zara]

Harri, just read your comments. Appreciate you taking the time to think about it. Going to sleep on it and think about the points you have made, they are very relevant. Thanks x

[YouHadMeAtHello]

It’s not harsh, it’s an honest opinion. It’s hard to explain, that’s why I feel confused. I have never had a problem with how my mum is with my kids and they enjoy speanding time with her. She makes an effort with them because they will vote with their feet. She’s not a danger to them in anyway. They might pick up that she can be quite an  intense, bossy person but she wouldn’t be volitile or anything around them. She has a certain amount of self control in that respect. I think she will be ok while they are young but not so sure as they become independent that’s when I think she may start  to control as everything has to be on her terms and what she wants to do. She will also panic incase they don’t want to spend time with her anymore but not enough to think about putting what they might want to do first. At this point they fulfil an emptiness she has. Not sure she could handle not seeing them.

But your mom is/was volatile with you, her child, right?  Why do you think she won't be that way with your kids?  

I don't think kids should be used to pacify an adult.  They aren't prozac and they shouldn't be responsible for making an adult feel better.  IMO, that's way too much pressure to put on a child.  My BPD sister loves kids they make her happy.  But, I know how she has treated me and I have zero reason to think she wouldn't eventually treat my daughter that way.  

[Fie]

I think a lot of us still struggle with feelings of guilt towards our parents. Logical because our BPD parents has installed this in us ... .

I also used to feel guilty over things towards my mum. Not anymore. I don't know why, but somehow I have developed a different mindset. Abuse is abuse, and I should not subject my daughter to that. Because then, when the damage will be done ... I will have something new to * really * feel guilty about, because I would have cocreated it myself.

 

[Zara]

Dad phoned to ask about getting kids as usual this weekend. My husband said to him that I was starting to feel uncomfortable giving my children to someone who is not speaking to me and we would speak to him about it after he dropped the kids off. Not quite sure what to say or do. As the only option seems to be for them to stop contact too. Feels like a huge step and as if I’m being really horrible. Any thoughts on what to say or do?

[Harri]

Hi Zara.  You do not need to explain anything.  Your husband already relayed all of the relevant information to your father.

My husband said to him that I was starting to feel uncomfortable giving my children to someone who is not speaking to me... .

Done deal.  You are their parent.  You get to decide what is right and healthy for your kids.  No explanation necessary.

Yes, your parents will get upset.  Your mother will be upset because, according to her, you are keeping her grandkids away from her.  We already know this.  She will believe what she believes and she will not see her part in this.  Let it be no matter how much unwarranted guilt you may feel.  She will go off kilter because you are changing things up and not playing along with her.  Your father will go off kilter because his sense of peace and his expectation that you will go along to get along is going to be taken away.  His world has revolved around appeasing and pleasing your mom.  Expect him to try to push you, plead with you, appeal to your sense of compassion, etc.  That is what he does.  Expect it and stand firm in your knowledge that neither you nor your kids exist to pacify your mother or him.

*You* will also go off kilter because you are changing your usual role and pattern of behavior.  This is to be expected and will get better and easier to deal with over time.  Over time is the key part to remember.  It may take weeks or months for the sense of guilt,dread, panic whatever to go away.  You are changing decades of learned behavior.  It will not feel comfortable right away.   It will even feel wrong.  Stand firm anyway.  No explanation needed.  You set the limits and boundaries around your kids, not your parents, right?

Now, later we an talk about other options should your mother decide to end her silence with you.  Chances are, she may do so once you refuse to let the kids visit when she is not speaking to you (are you aware that the silent treatment is a form of abuse?  Do a site search)  You and your husband will have to set limits and make decisions.  for now tho, I am going to leave this here.

How do you feel about what I wrote?  Do you agree?  You obviously don't have to so lets talk.

Hang in.  Do not let your mother or father define you and the choices you make.  Their view is distorted and disordered.  Keep reminding yourself of that.

[Zara]

You make lots of valid points, thanks. My mum would speak to me if I called her or went up to see her but I would have to initiate. She wouldn’t ignore me so not sure what that qualifies as? This is a pattern of behaviour. Usually I would be hoping she would make up an excuse that she has to speak to me or I would but I actually don’t want that this time because feel she has gone too far with her lack of support and behaviours. I have accepted that she will never change which is sad because it means there is no hope. I want/need a normal mum so badly because I’m estranged from my mum I feel estranged from everyone and everything. She effects my sense of self.

I take in board what you have said about everyone feeling off kilter and me possibly feeling it’s wrong. I can see that happening.  I think your right in that I should stop justifying myself.

[Fie]

dear Zara,


I am sending you lots of positive energy. 

For what it's worth, I 100 % agree with Harri. I think you have done the right thing. Please do not feel you have to come back, in any way, on your actions, because you don't.

Keep standing up for yourself, and for the kids. You are all worth it.

If it gets really tough, or if you just want to talk, don't hesitate to come here. You can also open a new post if you want that.

xxx

[Zara]

Thanks x Spoke to dad tonight. He said he thinks I just need to do what is best for the kids but asked me not to be cruel about it. Which I would never do as I wouldn’t be in this position otherwise or thinking about it so much. He also said he was going to tell her he thought she had BPD because she witnessed a lot of  domestic abuse when she was young and thinks it has stopped her emotions developing properly. She’s not going to be happy and I’m going to be even more unpopular.

[Fie]

but asked me not to be cruel about it.

I assume he means 'being cruel to your mum' ?

How do you feel about him asking you that ?

He also said he was going to tell her he thought she had BPD

From what I have read here online, I think telling someone we think they are BPD is mostly not well recieved. Most members would I think discourage it, and I can very much see why - and I mostly agree.

I have told my mother I think she has it. I was aware she was probably not going to take it well. I wanted to tell her anyway for my own reasons (mostly I didn't want to feel anymore like she could pretend I was the problem - I have always been the scapegoat).
And my suspicion turned out true, she didn't take it well  :-)  (she told me I was the one having it).

Well anyway, I feel it's a good thing that your dad appears to be aware of what's going on... .do you share this feeling ? (and if he wants to confront you mum, that's his decision maybe ... In case you would be considering talking to him about it, you might want to google 'karpman triangle' first)

[Harri]

Hi Zara.  Okay, wow.  So your dad is supporting you and that is wonderful.  What made him decide to tell her now that he thinks she has BPD?  Regardless of why, if he chooses to do so that is on him to deal with and navigate.  You can support and validate him but beyond that I would stay out of it.  Generally it is not recommended to tell someone they have BPD as it usually does not go well like you said.

It is hard to be seen as the Ruiner of The Family.  Been there, done that.  The thing is though that she and her view of you is not what defines you.  You have the right to say no, to set limits to refuse to play along in the same old role.  You have the right to get healthy Zara.  Just because you mom may see it as wrong does not mean it is.  Remind yourself of that.  Remind yourself not to let a disordered individual to define you.  

My mum would speak to me if I called her or went up to see her but I would have to initiate. She wouldn’t ignore me so not sure what that qualifies as?

It is still the silent treatment.  It stems from her hurt and inability to deal with that hurt.  My mother used to do that with me.  I don't think it was intentional at all but it was as if she needed me to approach her so she could be the one who was wronged.  My mom, who I think had BPD traits, was too disorganized in her thoughts and emotional regulation to have plotted that.  :)o you think that fits for your mother as well?  I ask because sometimes understanding what is going on for them helps it to hurt us less and then we are better able to come up with a response that is not tainted by confusion and hurt.

BTW, my mother is the one who stopped speaking to me.  I knew if I went to her she would talk to me, but I refused.  I wasn't going to make myself small so she could feel better.  When she eventually caved, about 9 months later, I set boundaries and made it clear I would not go back like all the other times.  She never pulled that again.  

Sometimes the best way to help people is to allow them to deal with the consequences of their choices and behaviors.

You are not wrong in this Zara.

[Zara]

Hi Fie,
I was annoyed at the cruel comment as I’m not like that and was a bit insulted. It’s the kind nd of thing my mum would say that your being cruel when your not she just doesn’t like what’s being said. My dad seemed pretty determined to say something which isn’t like him. I think he just feels sure that’s what is wrong with her... He is trying to be supportive. Think I will get the blame to be honest.  She will say I’m making up lies about her or something along those lines and go on about how much she has helped me which she does A LOT. I’m not sure about telling her bit scared about it if I’m honest. Think it might make the situation worse although can’t really get much worse as not talking to me anyway. You sound like you have moved on a lot which is good. I kind of feel similar to you in that I want to call in what it actually is and not me the scapegoat like yourself. This business is so draining on my mind all the time. Will I ever feel free of this? Find it very consuming and I don’t have the headspace for it as I work full time with a 3 and 1 year old. Appreciate your support.

Hi Harri,
Just saw you posted appreciate you getting back about the semi silent treatment as what you have described as your situation is the same as mine. It’s about control, power and protection from hurt. Like your situation it isn’t deliberate however she has said this time she isn’t speaking because that is what I want which is a bit sneaky because it’s as if I am causing myself pain not her.  I can’t speak to her now because I can’t accept the behaviour anymore and she will never stop the behaviour. If I confront her about her behaviour she just stops speaking unless I contact her. I’ve been reading about setting boundaries but don’t think I’m getting it . Need to work out contact I’m ok with with my kids. Thanks again.

[Zara]

What do you say to people why you don’t speak to your mum? Going to have to tell people soon and not sure what to say. They won’t get it and don’t want to do a character assassination of my mum.

[Fie]

Will I ever feel free of this? Find it very consuming and I don’t have the headspace for it

Yes, I am positive you will get around this. You might want to consider to be confronted as less as possible with this situation now. This might mean reducing contact. In your case (like in mine) this is not that difficult since your mum is doing this work for you already.

I totally understand that you do not have the headspace for all of this now. But you know what the good news is ?  You don't have to. It's very much ok to take a step back and to see how things develop. It's perfectly ok to shut out a part of the world, and to concentrate on yourself and your kids now.

What do you say to people why you don’t speak to your mum?

The rest of the (relatively small) family more or less has cut me off. That hurted a lot. But then again, the dynamics have never been healthy, so it was only a small step for them to do this. I have always somehow been the 'odd one'/scapegoat.

My friends or new people that I meet, I tell them that my mum is mentally not stable. Most people seem to grasp immediately that I don't want to talk about it and don't even ask further. But I do make it really clear that I am not open anymore for comments and good advise. Only from people who have been in my shoes. The rest somehow does not seem to understand - and I do get that. By making it clear that I don't need comments I make it easier for myself in this way that then they cannot make me doubt. Because I know I am able to question myself all over again. One friend of mine sometimes says 'I don't think that your mum does not want to see you, I think you are mispercieving the situation'. That really hurts, especially since  I used to think she understood. Now I just resign. She didn't live my childhood, so she cannot understand. But I am not open to hearing her elaborate her statement. I do not want  to go back to endlessly questioning myself.

Does this help ? Please ask everything you want.

[Zara]

It’s so frustrating when you find yourself justifying your feelings and situation to people who think they know the BPD person and the don’t. They just don’t get it and it’s as if you are being unfair to them. I think your right have learned today best not to go into it.

[Learning2Thrive]

Be extremely careful about allowing your BPD mum access to your children without your supervision.  I did this and it is the single biggest regret in my life. I had no idea what was going on until it was way too late. Now my adult child and grandchild whom I may never meet are alienated from me due to the disgusting lies my mother fed my child about me. But since I fought so hard for my mum to be allowed access while going thru a divorce, my daughter does not believe ME now.

As for explaining to others why you don’t speak with your mum... . My advice is don’t. Be brief and factual with very little detail. I say something like, it’s neither safe nor healthy for me to have a relationship with my mother and this is not open for discussion.

People who are healthy will understand and respect your boundaries. People who do not respect your boundaries do not deserve anything further.

Life is so hard when it should be so easy. Most of all, be kind to yourself. Really love yourself and know you are wothy of love, kindness, caring and respect.

[Learning2Thrive]

I want to add... .

I wanted my kid to have a grandmother because my grandmum was so important to me and the main healthy adult female role model in my life. I never dreamed my own mum would discredit me to my own child... .at the same time I was fighting for her to have access.

Bottom line: I went no conact because she was incapable of respecting me as an adult. Why did I think she would respect me or my boundaries after going no contact? Her quiet anger over my decision for sustaining no contact with her resulted in cloaked deceit and manipulation of my child during unsupervised visits. I now have to live with the fact that I am responsible for the outcome. Not my daughter and not my mentally ill mum... .because I not only allowed my it, I completely enabled it.